Guild Wars 2

nurf ALL!

>>You can get +70% without any sigils and using 2 giver weapons. As suggested previously, to balance out the +40% food +10% toxic crystal +20% giver (one on main/one on offhand), there should be a -40% food a -10% crytal and a -10% weapon (no double standard).

So what? You are sacrificing condition damage for that duration.

Furthermore I already pointed out how subtracting a lesser amount from a percentage point of view can be greater then what was added. You do not seem to grasp that.

The Auto attack on p/d thief set which so many complain about is 4 second bleed.

Add 70 percent. You get 6.8 seconds bleed or 6 ticks.

Take away 40 percent of 6.8 which is 2.7. You are now at your base bleed of 4 seconds. That soup canceled out the Veggie pizza the toxic crystal AND the two givers weapons on its own.

If you were to have 70 percent then you would drop it to a 2 second bleed. How do you call that balanced.?

babazhook.6805:

>>You can get +70% without any sigils and using 2 giver weapons. As suggested previously, to balance out the +40% food +10% toxic crystal +20% giver (one on main/one on offhand), there should be a -40% food a -10% crytal and a -10% weapon (no double standard).

So what? You are sacrificing condition damage for that duration.

Furthermore I already pointed out how subtracting a lesser amount from a percentage point of view can be greater then what was added. You do not seem to grasp that.

The Auto attack on p/d thief set which so many complain about is 4 second bleed.

Add 70 percent. You get 6.8 seconds bleed or 6 ticks.

Take away 40 percent of 6.8 which is 2.7. You are now at your base bleed of 4 seconds. That soup canceled out the Veggie pizza the toxic crystal AND the two givers weapons on its own.

If you were to have 70 percent then you would drop it to a 2 second bleed. How do you call that balanced.?

Technically, your 40 percent example would put you at 4.08 which is slightly higher than your base but I see your point. I hadn’t realize that the algorithm was based on proc (which makes sense). In that case (I still would like to test it out), I agree, the existing -40% food duration + melandru should be sufficient.

Ragnar.4257:

gennyt.3428:

Ragnar.4257:

…

Don’t expect to be able to just take all their conditions and then cleanse/heal through it. Conditions are the same as direct damage -> the only effective counter is to avoid it completely. Same as Killshot. Same as MindWrack. Same as Dragons Tooth. Same as Whirling Wrath. Same as Backstab.

…

-Kill shot you can see coming(running KS on a War in a small fight is like painting a giant bullseye on your back)
-Mind Wrack you can see coming(Clones running towards me? Gee what’s going to happen?)
-Dragon’s Tooth you can see coming (there’s a giant, flaming fang dripping lava on your head!)
-Who complains about whirling Whirling Wrath? lols
- Backstab was problematic, I would fully agree with you on that, you really had to just guess and dodge or pop a block or something.

Anyways, see where I’m going with this? They are not equal. Moving on.

Grenades – massive pile of red circles, cluster of flashing grenades slowly flying through the air

Bombs – obvious circles on the ground

Illusionary Counter (the only ‘burst’ a condi mes has) – mesmer stands there mysteriously doing nothing, and then blocks. Very easily evaded even if you hit the block (hint, there is a short window between the block and the torment where you can evade).

Confusing Images – massive purple beam

Thief Pistol-Venom burst – all the venom buffs appear on his boon bar, often coincides with Thieves Guild, or an unusually long period in stealth.

Necro Marks – evil green flashing circle on floor

Signet of Spite – do you even have eyes?

Deathshroud/Plague – ????

You see where I’m going with this? Many of the hardest hitting condition skills have just as obvious telegraphs as power skills.

Some people have just learnt to pay attention to them, while others refuse to and would rather QQ instead.

Dodging a venom-unload from a thief is just the same as dodging a hammer-chain from a warrior. The signs are there for you to read. If you fail to read it, you get destroyed. If you read it properly, they’ll just be flailing in the air.

If you’re facing a condi Mes and get loaded up with 5 stacks of torment, 10 stacks of confusion, 10 stacks of bleed, cripple and vulnerability, that isn’t the Mes being OP. It’s you being bad.

Yeah no, if a necro wants to drop marks on you, it’s going to happen, unless you have stealth and they can’t see/guess where you are, the marks already being down and you walking into them is an entirely different scenerio otherwise you’d have to watch for the necro to wave his/her hand, good luck with that if other people are hitting you. People can’t see my Corrupt Boon or my conditional condi procs either. Any necro using plague in small man fights deserves to die.

Grenades aren’t as easily dodged if the engi is close as a matter of fact, they’re instant at near melee range, which, in a small group fight many engineers tend to be since they’re often quite durable.
In cases like these, several tanky people throwing red circles that result in passive damage can be problematic.

Then there are theives that can repeatedly prep or drop condi from stealth(sometimes not being revealed), even those venoms you mentioned which can be omitted for more survivability and often are. Then there is confusion on steal, which has isn’t exactly telegraphed either.

It’s been three paragraphs, I could go on but I get the feeling it would be pointless so I’m leaving this alone.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

I have yet to see full soldiers kill full dire in 1 vs 1, that’s considering same skill lvl of course. Only some condi is applied on crit, most condi applications don’t need any precision.

Never seen a good War/ele in PVT w/ might stacking? Also… they don’t balance for 1v1. It’s too rock paper scissors.

The classes that don’t get on crit procs generally have fewer conditions and are more easily cleansed away.

Changes to +40% condi food, perplexity runes, or dire gear is pretty much crazy talk. It’s not going to happen. All you can really do is play around it.

-Use -condi food and / or melandru, hoelbrak runes
-Use your removal wisely to purge a bleed stack as it stacks back on top
-Don’t heal when poisoned, pay attention to the source
-Don’t take excessive damage from confusion
-Don’t spam 1 all the time to lower the chance of an needless attack being interrupted for perplex confusion
-Don’t bother with p/d perplex thieves if they have PvE or multiple players to cloak off and you don’t have a ton of cc
-Understand positioning from dangerous point blank condi application

On that last point, perplex bomb engis, condimancers, and to a lesser extent blackwater mesmers are really dangerous close in and in tight spaces. In the open and at range, the risk goes down a lot. Duel melee heavies will struggle against these builds no matter how well you play without support. Thieves can usually do their normal routine of backstabbing and kiting while revealed, or using sword burst to move in and out at will. Mesmers can spatial spam them down while keeping phantasms up and blinking for position. Eles have a mountain of condi removal without running crummy traits or slot skills, and a lot of raw healing.

There’s also no rule against changing your slot skills before getting into combat, and you should instantly recognize condi builds by the food and sigil stack. In most of my roaming type builds I consider the 3rd utility skill a sort of flexible slot that is changed depending on the situation. As for your healing skill, you’re probably going to want to change that too to the one that either has condi removal or has the most raw healing rather than a signet or defensive heal.

For example, let’s say you’re playing a generic warrior roaming with heal sig, FGJ, endure pain, and doylak sig on your bar. How much does your chance of beating a condi build go up if you quickly change heal sig to mending and endure pain to berseker stance? Heal sig is garbage if you’re poisoned quite a bit, while mending will usually purge poison before healing. Endure pain is almost useless against a condi build, while berseker stance will give you a good amount of free hits to DPS and build up adrenaline quickly. These are the types of things you have to think about and do if you want to be successful roaming against a full spectrum of builds.

Dire is a bit much, I will agree with that. I tend to just avoid the P/P or P/Sh engi, the roaming necro and most mesmers when roaming on a power based class. If I roam around and find mostly condi classes, I change my gear/traits to help remove/lessen them.

Adapt and overcome or just avoid. Your choice.

Conditions are fine, the reapplication is slightly too high for some things, and Dire stat combination is not as balanced. I think there’s a reason it’s not in PvP.

Omnitek.3876:

Dire is a bit much, I will agree with that. I tend to just avoid the P/P or P/Sh engi, the roaming necro and most mesmers when roaming on a power based class. If I roam around and find mostly condi classes, I change my gear/traits to help remove/lessen them.

Adapt and overcome or just avoid. Your choice.

What roaming eng runs full dire? Not having any IP proc is a huge damage loss.

Aberrant.6749:

Omnitek.3876:

Dire is a bit much, I will agree with that. I tend to just avoid the P/P or P/Sh engi, the roaming necro and most mesmers when roaming on a power based class. If I roam around and find mostly condi classes, I change my gear/traits to help remove/lessen them.

Adapt and overcome or just avoid. Your choice.

What roaming eng runs full dire? Not having any IP proc is a huge damage loss.

I never once said anything about an engi in dire… It was a blanket statement about an armor set followed by a comment about the major condi classes.

Aberrant.6749:

Omnitek.3876:

Dire is a bit much, I will agree with that. I tend to just avoid the P/P or P/Sh engi, the roaming necro and most mesmers when roaming on a power based class. If I roam around and find mostly condi classes, I change my gear/traits to help remove/lessen them.

Adapt and overcome or just avoid. Your choice.

What roaming eng runs full dire? Not having any IP proc is a huge damage loss.

Could be somewhat viable with Intelligence sigils. Aside that, rabid should always > dire for engi.

Some classes, such as P/D cheese teef, can go full dire and excel in the circumstances.

Artaz.3819:

Condition builds are overpowered and will continue to be so for one major reason, it only takes 2 stats (Condition damage and Condition duration) to maximize damage output. All other direct damage takes 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity.

I am not even gonna read further in your post. Because you start out with a straight out false statement. Condition builds rely on 3 Stats to maximize damage. It is Condition Damage, Condition Duration and Precision. Remember, you talked about maximizing. Also, a condition build relies on a defensive 4th or even 5th stat, to be able to survive, until the conditions have dealt their damage, like Toughness or Vitality.

Builds, that focus only on the 3 offensive ones, do quit a lot of damage, granted, but it is still far away from Thief or Warrior Zerker builds in a matter of DPS. Also, giving up one of the offensive stats, mostly in sacrificing Precision in favor of Vitality (Dire Gear), means giving up on a lot of damage.

My Terrormacer condition build for instance, has a defense of 2.4k. All in favor of maximizing damage output. Granted, necromancers have quit a lot of HP, making them still a tougher target. However, if I am not carefull, I will be bursted down.

The only thing I will admit, is that the +40% condition duration food is out of line. I’d be okay with changing that to 10-15%, if the defensive ones will be changed to 10-15% as well. Melandru Runes could remain untouched, as far as I am concerned.

I’ve been running a condi build with diamond skin on my ele recently. I’ve destroyed every 1v1 i’ve come across. It’s almost funny seeing necros/engis spam their condis and my health not even moving.

The only problem is when there’s an add on the fight and my health goes below 90 percent, then unless I run i’m toast, as just impossible to fight that level of condition application.

I do think condis are too strong and too easy to apply though. It’s a pretty skill-less setup, and if you’re a condi runner, you’re not outplaying anyone, let’s be honest. With the condi setup i have to try 10 times less with fights than before to win, and it’s so much safer…just kite around apply conditions, kite some more….profit!

I was duelling some thieves. The only thief setup who gave me some issues was the p/d thief, another condition user….(because he used thieves guild to drop my health).

I agree, it is easier fighting scrubs with a condi setup. But that is due to a lack of condi cleanse or basic knowledge, how condi specs work.

Also, I wonder, how is bursting with 10-20k direct damage (skill chain of course, not one skill) and auto attacks with 1-2k+ damage a more skillful play than applying conditions over time via skill chains?

@typin

>>The only thing I will admit, is that the +40% condition duration food is out of line. I’d be okay with changing that to 10-15%, if the defensive ones will be changed to 10-15% as well. Melandru Runes could remain untouched, as far as I am concerned.

Why is 40 percent duration food out of line? I have shown how eating Lemongrass poultry soup can MORE then cancel out that extra duration. Indeed on its own it can cancel out a Condition user using two givers weapons, Rare veggie Pizza and a Toxic crystal. One source of minus duration cancels out 4 sources of plus condition duration.

If people do not WANT to use this soup it their choice. They can not claim that those that eat duration foods then have an unfair advantage.

You might argue it out of line because it puts more pressure on a defending player to use that soup and nothing else when dealing with a condition user but there a whole lot of choices forced on those playing a Condition build when dealing with power builds or builds heavy on the CC as well.

They just need to undo the critical damage nerf.

@babazhook
I think your calculations are false. First, bonus and malus to condition duration is taken, as far as I know, from the base duration of this condition (I saw a video, where 2 dudes tested it our with traits and food, but it was a long time ago). So let’s use the same numbers of your example: 4s bleed with +70% duration and on target a -40% duration:
70% of 4s = 2.8s
40% of 4s = 1.6s
Adding bonus and malus together we get a final duration of 5.2s
In the end, the malus has weakened the bonus, but not canceled it out.

Why I think 40% is out of line? Because it more or less equals a damage bonus of up to 40% in addition to the bonus to malice it already offers. Of course, if we have, for instance, already 6 trait points in a trait line with bonus to condition duration, then it is a bonus of only around 30% (not taking into consideration the malice bonus). That is still huge and doesn’t come close, to what other food gives as a bonus to direct damage.

Also, another issue is, that there is food giving a duration bonus to certain kinds of condition, like bowl of fire meat chilli. But that bonus is only 15%. That just doesn’t make sense. You have a specialized food, that is weaker, than the food that buffs all conditions.

Omnitek.3876:

Aberrant.6749:

Omnitek.3876:

Dire is a bit much, I will agree with that. I tend to just avoid the P/P or P/Sh engi, the roaming necro and most mesmers when roaming on a power based class. If I roam around and find mostly condi classes, I change my gear/traits to help remove/lessen them.

Adapt and overcome or just avoid. Your choice.

What roaming eng runs full dire? Not having any IP proc is a huge damage loss.

I never once said anything about an engi in dire… It was a blanket statement about an armor set followed by a comment about the major condi classes.

Ahhh, the lack of using the enter key to separate the post made it look like you were.

Building full dire means that you’re very weak against people that build anti-cond. If you’re talking about 1v1 it’s far too… my build counters your build to complain about balance. If you’re talking bout small group, then a decently put together group should easily have enough cleansing to not be too worried about dire conds.

So if we nerf condi roamers can we also get a nerf to thief and warrior power roamers as well? Thieves make up >75% of all roamers these days because of how strong and easy they are to play in a roaming situation.

>>I think your calculations are false. First, bonus and malus to condition duration is taken, as far as I know, from the base duration of this condition (I saw a video, where 2 dudes tested it our with traits and food, but it was a long time ago).

I am not sure you are correct here. On Melandru it states “10 percent lower INCOMING condition duration.”

If the incoming condition has a duration of 17 seconds then 20 percent of that would be 3.4 seconds.

You are claiming that incoming durations are not based on the duration of the incoming condition but upon its base duration.

It will take a bit to demonstrate which is correct in game conclusively but it my own experience you are wrong and it applies to the full duration including the bonuses.

So as example the Fire of the Balthazar rune is 3 seconds base. I can extend that to 6 seconds using foods and items.

Assuming a full 6 second duration and that 100 percent duration increase.

I am suggesting the burn will last 2+ seconds against a person using Melandru and the soup.

You are stating that it would in fact last 4 seconds and the reduction would only apply to the base burn.

Is that correct?

As to your boosts. Durations only give more damage IF the player who takes them allows the full duration to expire. When someone gets a boost from power the extra damage inflicted is ALWAYS.

If my duration is as example another 5 ticks then those 5 ticks must occur without a cleanse.

100 power is about 4 percent more damage on every swing. The damage from direct damage is already higher. This extkittenrcent will happen on every attack. You cannot compare “percentages” directly that that.

It sort of like this.

Bob makes 1 million dollars a year and gets a 4 percent raise. That is an extra 40000 dollars.

Jill makes 20000 a year and gets a 40 percent raise. That is an extra 8000 dollars. Bobs “smaller percentage” raise still gives him more extra money then jill makes in an entire year because the base value of his wage is higher.

Added to that Jill can only get that extra 8000 if she works for one more year. If she quits or is fired before that she gets none of it. Bobs is paid extra every day he shows for his job.

You have to look at it the same way with conditions versus direct damage.

I agree, it requires testing. However, it was tested before, maybe I can find the video again, or find some1 with whom I can test it. But your assumption is correct: In your example, I would assume the burning lasts for 4 seconds.

On a high Power build + 100 power would equal around 3-4% damage increase. On a low power build, that bonus would be relatively higher. To be fair, we have to account for the Ferocity bonus of 70, leading to a 5% crit damage increase, what in turn increases maximum damage. That equals on a zerker build – with around 200% crit dmg – an increase of 2% in maximum damage. That would be relatively seen higher, if the base crit dmg is lower. Assuming a crit chance of aprox. 50% it would give on a zerker additional 1% average damage. All in all the food (+100 power, +70 ferocity) would increase average direct damage 4-5% (if I am not mistaken, it is late, so nobody should take those number for granted). The average damage output of a condition damage build is, without any food, lower, I agree, but the question is, if the difference is really that big, as you have metaphorically claimed.

To make both increases “equal”, base direct damage would have to be around 33% higher than base condition damage. This way 5% direct damage bonus leads to the same amount of damage as a 40% damage increase on condition damage. Not taking into account defensive mechanisms like protection, condition cleanses or even turning of conditions into boons (technically a cleanse, but also more than that). If we account for them, what is not easily estimated, than the base direct damage doesn’t have to be so much higher than condition damage to make the buffs “equal”.

I will, however, first focus on the matter of condition damage reduction. That doesn’t solve the issue with the duration increase topic, it would but clear some things out concerning damage reduction.

EDIT:
Okay, the first obstacle has been overcome. I found the thread with the respecting video: klick me

A quote from that thread is:

Findings were that both negative and positive duration effects act on base duration, and are combined additively. Once I put on the same amount of + duration that he had on – duration, we ended up cancelling each other out, as if neither of us was running food.

Minus duration food is not stronger than plus duration food, minus duration food calculates off base durations just the same as plus duration

Reverence.6915:

SFShinigami.2015:

My clones loved exploding all over you

You weren’t doing much damage to me. It was an engineer and warrior next to you.

I build my ele for lots of cleanse when it’s roaming, but condi bunker builds are just stupid and not fun to play against. The way it’s going, we’ll only have condi bunkers fighting against each other and roaming really die by that time.

If you engage and you’re not a condition build you’re already doing it wrong.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to say thank you for being so constructive in this thread guys. We’re watching threads like this one, and we really find peaceful debates to be highly useful for us when gathering balance perception data.

We know food is an issue that definitely gets people passionate, so thank you for staying calm while voicing your opinions! I can’t make any promises on fixes, but I can say we’re debating this issue internally just like you guys are, and we use your points/counterpoints as reference in our discussions.

Thanks for being awesome!

Don’t mess with the food.

+/- duration food allows for people to better plan strategy. This game lacks that already and removing more of it is a bad idea.

style.6173:

+/- duration food allows for people to better plan strategy. This game lacks that already and removing more of it is a bad idea.

I disagree and think it’s the complete opposite.

If they tone down the condition duration/reduction foods, it will give players more freedom to choose food that actually complements their builds. Many people choose Lemongrass Poultry soup simply to negate the +40% duration of Koi Cakes/Veggie Pizza. If it was shaved down to something along the lines of 25%, players wouldn’t feel so pigeonholed into having to run -condi duration food.

Also, 40% condition duration is quite high compared to the benefits other foods give. It’s the equivalent of going 8 points into your condition duration trait line. You then still get the additional +70 condition duration. Most other foods that give you a stat increase only have their high stat giving you the equivalent of investing 2 in their respective trait line.

Eugenides.1274:

style.6173:

+/- duration food allows for people to better plan strategy. This game lacks that already and removing more of it is a bad idea.

I disagree and think it’s the complete opposite.

If they tone down the condition duration/reduction foods, it will give players more freedom to choose food that actually complements their builds. Many people choose Lemongrass Poultry soup simply to negate the +40% duration of Koi Cakes/Veggie Pizza. If it was shaved down to something along the lines of 25%, players wouldn’t feel so pigeonholed into having to run -condi duration food.

Also, 40% condition duration is quite high compared to the benefits other foods give. It’s the equivalent of going 8 points into your condition duration trait line. You then still get the additional +70 condition duration. Most other foods that give you a stat increase only have their high stat giving you the equivalent of investing 2 in their respective trait line.

Exactly, less condi duration would mean more planning and therefore less spaming

I’ve killed a great variety of condition builds on my S/D thief.
Another story is that I’ve been obligated to pop up lemongrass food to kill the better ones… Which is definitely worrisome.
And of course an easy fix to condition duration food would be to make it +10% instead of +40%, to keep it in line.

JonathanSharp.7094:

We know food is an issue that definitely gets people passionate, so thank you for staying calm while voicing your opinions!

Awesome.

Boon Duration Nerfed
Condi Duration Upcoming Nerf woot

The reason condi is rewarding right now is because you just need 1 offensive stat to do almost the same type of damage to a power style build that requires 3 stats to work.

I made the suggestion to Roy the other day about splitting condi up too where you need stats like ferocity and precision to get a more even battlefield. And lowering the base damage on condi.

Now Roy said to me that condi in larger group setups don’t match up that well but I think with the 3 stat setup it’ll be a bit more rewarding in larger group setups too. Since you can apply more pressure with a crit and a crit chance approach.

The + duration and – duration modifiers are pitted against eachother but the real losers I think are the power builds that use utility conditions but + duration food isn’t optimal for them. For example Id love to run a power/rifle Engie but the moment you run into a Melandru Warrior, suddenly you cant use net shot to set up any combos, and traits like Sitting Duck and Exploit Weakness become worthless. MH sword on a power Warrior suffers the same issue, making it impossible to land a flurry + 100b combo, and you cant land those cripples with MH Sword either for Thieves and Rangers.

Gully.7358:

The reason condi is rewarding right now is because you just need 1 offensive stat to do almost the same type of damage to a power style build that requires 3 stats to work.

I made the suggestion to Roy the other day about splitting condi up too where you need stats like ferocity and precision to get a more even battlefield. And lowering the base damage on condi.

Now Roy said to me that condi in larger group setups don’t match up that well but I think with the 3 stat setup it’ll be a bit more rewarding in larger group setups too. Since you can apply more pressure with a crit and a crit chance approach.

in general, condis in small mans need to be nerfed, and buffed in large fights. the reason for this discrepancy is because so many classes have aoe condi cleanse. the bigger the fight is, the more aoe cleanse is flying around.

making condi builds require 3 (or even 2) main stats helps to nerf small man fights, as condi builds won’t be as survivable, but won’t help their viability in large fights at all, they will just get killed faster.

as far as nerfing condi food, lets be honest, even if food is nerfed, the non-condi classes will still be running -condi food. the mitigation of so many sources of damage/cc is just too good to give up.

Personally, I think the TTK on everything needs to be brought up. Berserker already suffered a burst-potential nerf, however I don’t think it was enough in my personal opinion, and conditions are over the top as we can all agree. Games become more skill based when it takes longer than 3 seconds to down your opponent.

WvW is just garbage in general. Stick with the smaller scale more well developed pvp in the game.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Personally, I think the TTK on everything needs to be brought up. Berserker already suffered a burst-potential nerf, however I don’t think it was enough in my personal opinion, and conditions are over the top as we can all agree. Games become more skill based when it takes longer than 3 seconds to down your opponent.

it’s not that burst potential needs to be nerfed, it’s the unavoidable/untelegraphed burst skills that needs to be looked at.

if you just striaght up nerf burst damage such as eviscerate or killshot, all that will accomplish is reduce build variety. the counter to high burst is being alert and dodging it, which requires skill.

the only burst in the game that isn’t telegraphed is s/d ele and d/d thieves.

your comment about the game being more skill based if it takes longer than 3 seconds to kill someone is very misleading. unless you’re being bursted by the 2 builds i mentioned, it’s your own lack of skill that kills you.

Maybe it’s been asked/said already, but what is the actual reason for food buffs in WvW in the first place? Seems like an unnecessary powercreep.

It potentially adds a lot of variety, which makes balance more difficult to be sure but I think a lot of people enjoy the opportunity to tinker with different bonuses.

The problem with +/- condi duration food is that with the proliferation of condition builds it becomes the only viable type of food to run.

It doesn’t even matter anyway. WvW now suffers from the same symptom that Planetside 2 does. Whoever has the population has the map. End of story.

Haxwell.7398:

WvW is just garbage in general. Stick with the smaller scale more well developed pvp in the game.

Haxwell.7398:

It doesn’t even matter anyway. WvW now suffers from the same symptom that Planetside 2 does. Whoever has the population has the map. End of story.

sPvP is garbage because if you don’t pigeonhole yourself into a meta build you’ll lose the match for your team. Since sPvP matches are even, winning and losing is taken way more seriously.

You can play WvW all the time and never fret about the score or how many fights you win. Sure, some people do, but that’s because they overlook the obvious things you pointed out.

Haxwell.7398:

It doesn’t even matter anyway. WvW now suffers from the same symptom that Planetside 2 does. Whoever has the population has the map. End of story.

this is why most servers no longer play for PPT, a true testament to the failure of the scoring, ranking, and reward system.

I’ve seen that around the forums, what does PPT stand for?

An easy way to fix WvW, would be to only allow each warring faction to have a maximum of 33% of the population in a battleground. So example, hypothetically speaking if a maximum of 100 players could be fighting on a single battle ground (i’m only using this example because I suck at math) Then each faction fighting could only have a maximum of 33 players join the bg. That would make the fighting a lot more about quality over quantity.

PPT = Points Per Tick
Points are what you get for holding objectives like camps or keeps, the tick is indicated by clock in WvW that counts down every 15 minutes, and this is what decides the final score.

Regarding your suggestion, that’s already how it works, although the total maximum number hasn’t been officially disclosed. If you read through this forum you’ll find a lot of threads suggesting how to deal with the population imbalance but all of the solutions would create problems of their own. That isn’t to say the devs shouldn’t pursue one of the proposed solutions (and in all fairness, they have tried to realize some of the suggestions), however there are also fair reasons why they haven’t.

This isn’t pertinent to the discussion in this thread, though.

Haxwell.7398:

An easy way to fix WvW, would be to only allow each warring faction to have a maximum of 33% of the population in a battleground. So example, hypothetically speaking if a maximum of 100 players could be fighting on a single battle ground (i’m only using this example because I suck at math) Then each faction fighting could only have a maximum of 33 players join the bg. That would make the fighting a lot more about quality over quantity.

Even with overflows this solution would punish larger servers. Even if we had equal populations in all servers, those with men and women who did not want to WvW would still gate entrance into the maps for those with large WvW populations. I think the solution is a bit more complex than imposing a limit like that or adding an outnumbered buff, but unfortunatly I am unable to see such a solution (also, this is a condi thread)

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to say thank you for being so constructive in this thread guys. We’re watching threads like this one, and we really find peaceful debates to be highly useful for us when gathering balance perception data.

We know food is an issue that definitely gets people passionate, so thank you for staying calm while voicing your opinions! I can’t make any promises on fixes, but I can say we’re debating this issue internally just like you guys are, and we use your points/counterpoints as reference in our discussions.

Thanks for being awesome!

an another BIG issue is that after the last major update , cleansing bolts are not removing any condition anymore….

i have reported in-game , did a thread in guardians forum , but nothing , even as answer …..

JonathanSharp.7094:

I can’t make any promises on fixes, but I can say we’re debating this issue internally just like you guys are, and we use your points/counterpoints as reference in our discussions.

I am a little bit sad that this non-issue creates a diversion to the devs tight schedule, but this is just my opinion. To my understanding, condi roamers are fine in WvW. They are currently in the sweet spot where the actual proficiency of a player in using her tools at hand (being it condis, stun-locks, stealth ambushes or whatever) decides a 1v1, and not just the simple cookie cutter spec she is running. But, again, that’s just my two cents.

If you guyz really believe that condi damage needs a shave (of which I am certainly not convinced) I’d argue that the +40% condi duration food line would be the best aspect to change. I’d say condi builds wouldn’t be utterly broken if this bonus would be scaled down to, say, 30%? (to 25? to 20%?) Plus, this change would not interfere with sPvP.

I even wouldn’t mind if the -40% condi duration buff food line would stay at their percentage at the same time. If someone is mindful enough to prepare for certain limited circumstances accordingly, I don’t mind if that player is in a strong position if this circumstances actually happen. After all, it also meant that at the same time the player was sacrificing an offensive or another more versatile defensive buff.

~MRA

MRA.4758:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I can’t make any promises on fixes, but I can say we’re debating this issue internally just like you guys are, and we use your points/counterpoints as reference in our discussions.

I am a little bit sad that this non-issue creates a diversion to the devs tight schedule, but this is just my opinion. To my understanding, condi roamers are fine in WvW. They are currently in the sweet spot where the actual proficiency of a player in using her tools at hand (being it condis, stun-locks, stealth ambushes or whatever) decides a 1v1, and not just the simple cookie cutter spec she is running. But, again, that’s just my two cents.

If you guyz really believe that condi damage needs a shave (of which I am certainly not convinced) I’d argue that the +40% condi duration food line would be the best aspect to change. I’d say condi builds wouldn’t be utterly broken if this bonus would be scaled down to, say, 30%? (to 25? to 20%?) Plus, this change would not interfere with sPvP.

I even wouldn’t mind if the -40% condi duration buff food line would stay at their percentage at the same time. If someone is mindful enough to prepare for certain limited circumstances accordingly, I don’t mind if that player is in a strong position if this circumstances actually happen. After all, it also meant that at the same time the player was sacrificing an offensive or another more versatile defensive buff.

~MRA

Or, just remove the ability to eat food for buffs in WvW like they have in other forms of PvP.

I think, with the boost to weapon sigil and runes, the overall increased cond duration on food buffs can be nerfed by 15%, however counter cond food (lemongrass) cannot be nerfed before a similar (buff) to minus cond duration happens. I think, for the sake of simplicity, negative cond duration should be given a stat. Call is resilience or something. Scale it the way you scale agony resistance, or use agony resistance for this effegt instead. Then add a stacking sigil that boosts resilience/agony pr kill and certain trinkets and infusions adding this stat. To prevent enrmies from loading up on resilience/agony only 2-3 trinketslots should grant this boost, meaning only backpiece + amulet+aquamask or only rings or only accessories.
Maximum resillience/agony should not negate more then 75% duration, boosters should not exceed 100% duration, with the exceptions of certain traits.

-Condi food already has an inherited advantage over +condi food, as conditions tick per full second, and both scale from the base condi-duration, also not to forget not all classes have insane base durations on their condi applications like let’s say a warrior or necro.

If you tweak condi food you also need to tweak durations on certain skills to keep a viable balance so condi builds also keep their middle ground and not either are all out overload or pure tank with no output.

Then again conditions are useless in big fights as there simply is to much cleansing going on, and there’s even loads of hardcounters in the game currently to condition specs.

The problem for condi specs mostly lies in anet’s powercreep philosopy where they applied to much overload acces and not keep their stronger conditions as smart application this again led to hardcounters and stronger anti-conditions traits and skills, killing any depth it could possible have had, the same goes for boons to some extend when it comes to application and removal.

Gully.7358:

The reason condi is rewarding right now is because you just need 1 offensive stat to do almost the same type of damage to a power style build that requires 3 stats to work.

Your statement is false.
I have added a JPG-file to show my point. I have calculated with the help of this online build editor the average damage of one scepter auto attack chain of the necromancer with different condition damage setups. Those are not complete builds but rather basics of possible builds. I chose the necromancer profession for I am most familiar with it.

In the line with Sum you can see the average damage of one attack chain under the different setups. The columns with the Pizza food buff are greyed out, because they exceed 100% condition duration bonus. But that bonus has a limit of 100%. So those columns aren’t accurate.

However, in the last lines, I compared the different damage numbers (the stat advantages). And the result is that condition duration and precision leads to a significant damage bonus. The bonus from precision alone seems rather weak compared to the bonus from condition duration. That is due to the inherent design of the necromancer, where even with low precision some bleeds on critical hit will still trigger. For engineer for example, it would be way more important, for they rely often in the trait, that offers burning on critical hits. Nonetheless, in necromancer the combination of condition duration and precision has an additional 10% dmg bonus than condition duration alone, showing how important and well all 3 stats – condition damage, precision and condition duration – work together. Going for all those three means giving up on vitality and toughness. For instance, build 1 and 2 have almost 3k defense, while builds 4 and 5 have only around 2.5k.

Critical hits might still be important, to maybe transfer conditions to enemy on critical hits. The advantages of precision are more than what is shown here.

However, the attack chain with 3 attacks with only max. condition damage causes a laughable amount of damage compared to any power build. That makes your statement, only one condition stat could make damage equal to power builds, laughable. Remember, this table shows an attack chain of 3 attacks.

Just to reiterate:

Condi pros: 2 stat damage, heavy food stat buff, bypasses toughness, application out strips removal by a large margin in small fights

Condi negatives: Stacks cap on bosses, removal in large groups can outstrip application

IMO all of these need to be addressed or condi bunkers will continue to dominate small group fights.