Guild Wars 2

“Our goal is to continue to encourage organized large groups while giving small, tactical groups the necessary tools to put a dent into larger mobs of less-skilled players. We think that it can be fun to run around in a zerg — but we also think that the game should be about tactical acumen and skill more than sheer numbers.”

A quote from Devon Carver. Is the AoE cap finally going to be trashed? I’d love to know how they are planning on giving a smaller, but more skilled group an even playing field against a larger, but worse group. I don’t think just changing the scoring system will fix the mindless zerg’s advantage over a more skilled, but outnumbered group.

… arrowcarts.

Some things to think about:

1) Generally speaking small armies get crushed by larger armies. Inconvenient fact of war often glossed over by movies, romantikittenerature and first person shooters.

2) The skill in small group combat is not getting caught by the larger force, ambushing reinforcements and harassing the enemy. Small groups are generally not meant to destroy large groups except under extreme circumstances.

3) People who often consider themselves to be part of the “small skilled group” fighting the “mindless zergs” in games generally can’t handle getting killed very well so they like to blame other factors for their loss rather than accepting they picked a fight they couldn’t win. It was this way in EVE and this way in WAR and it is this way in GW2.

4) I guarantee anything they do to attempt to satisfy the “my small group has difficulties beating a larger group” crowd will either make the larger group more powerful (via Law of Unintended Consequences) or will completely unbalance combat in general and drive off the masses. Once again saw this happen in several other games and I have seen nothing here that makes me believe they will fare any better.

even if organized groups did start rolling zergs people would start to adapt and things would just continue like normal if anything it would in time make the game more interesting since there would be a lot more to do then just attacking a door

Aethilmar.3951:

romantikittenerature

This is why I love the profanity filter. Never laughed so hard.

Organized Groups = simultaneous soloing of all supply camps on a map = problem for enemy servers.

Small groups trying to kill zergs are doing it wrong, guerrilla harassment and resource denial should really be used a lot more often… The problem with a zerg is that it becomes a massive target screaming “counter me, counter me!” Learn from Starcraft, people. A zerg without supplies is a useless zerg.

It’s a difficult problem to adress. Because as Aethilmar described larger groups / numbers often win a war.
What you would often do however as a small group, would be to take advantage of weather and environment for instance to create an ambush.
I’d like to see some extreme weather happen, where your sight becomes just as bad as in the Ice Fractal. Unorganized larger groups would fall to confusion while the smaller groups would be able to spike and coordinate their dmg.
Setting up ambushes should be another strategy.

The easiest and most simple solution would simply be to divide the amount of wxp based on the number of players involved in an event. The number one reason for people not splitting up is because everyone want rewards.
I’ve tried gathering small groups to attack more objectives at once, but have never managed to get it going. If we split up people will only get half the rewards, so why not just zergball everything so everyone can get rewards. Sad but true.
Fixing this problem would really help with the zerg problem.

Don’t need any of this.. just bigger maps, space out the objectives and people will be forced to be multiple places at the same time or risk losing other objectives. That plus restore AC’s to what they were before.

osif.8673:

“Our goal is to continue to encourage organized large groups while giving small, tactical groups the necessary tools to put a dent into larger mobs of less-skilled players. We think that it can be fun to run around in a zerg — but we also think that the game should be about tactical acumen and skill more than sheer numbers.”

A quote from Devon Carver.

Hellooo, Devon – time to wake up!

Those “tools” to hit larger groups are already in the game and heavily abused, it´s called stacking of Guards and Warriors with a few supporting classes like Eles and Mesmers behind:

Ok, it may not be so tactical or skilled to run through unorganized groups with a Warri, stacked with boons and to constantly hit 1 but as you probably see more room for unbalancing, you must of course take the chance, so good luck (for all of us).

Aethilmar.3951:

Some things to think about:

1) Generally speaking small armies get crushed by larger armies. Inconvenient fact of war often glossed over by movies, romantikittenerature and first person shooters.

Perhaps the larger army will eventually win the war, but that doesn’t come without losses. In gw2 however, because of the downed state and the ressing system the zerg can’t be harmed without fully destroying it.
In reality it’s certainly possible for smaller groups to harm much greater groups, check out for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salients,_re-entrants_and_pockets:

A motitus is therefore a double envelopment manoeuvre, using the ability of light troops to travel over rough ground to encircle enemy troops on a road. Heavily outnumbered but mobile forces could easily immobilize an enemy many times more numerous.

osif.8673:

“Our goal is to continue to encourage organized large groups while giving small, tactical groups the necessary tools to put a dent into larger mobs of less-skilled players. We think that it can be fun to run around in a zerg — but we also think that the game should be about tactical acumen and skill more than sheer numbers.”

A quote from Devon Carver. Is the AoE cap finally going to be trashed? I’d love to know how they are planning on giving a smaller, but more skilled group an even playing field against a larger, but worse group. I don’t think just changing the scoring system will fix the mindless zerg’s advantage over a more skilled, but outnumbered group.

More siege of course.

Flash building the latest and greatest…. that’s the ANET vision, along with another mastery ability to add to the ill-conceived WXP system.

Because as Aethilmar described larger groups / numbers often win a war.

Superior numbers may win a war but not necessarily a battle. You know, war is something that often takes several months and involves tens of thousands of troops. What we have in Guild Wars 2 are small scale fights involving around 80 to 100 people. In reality, a well positioned but outnumbered force could easily win such a fight. Both highly trained and well equipped group could definitely win such a fight*.
So this point of Aethilmar is really quite moot.

*For example there was a situation during Operation Desert storm where a single USA tank destroyed several Iraqi tanks at point blank range. The outdated cannons of the Iraqi tanks simply couldn’t penetrate the plating of the Abrams. Just to point out that in reality it’s really not as simple as numbers > everything, especially not in the modern day.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Because as Aethilmar described larger groups / numbers often win a war.

Superior numbers may win a war but not necessarily a battle. You know, war is something that often takes several months and involves tens of thousands of troops. What we have in Guild Wars 2 are small scale fights involving around 80 to 100 people. In reality, a well positioned but outnumbered force could easily win such a fight. Both highly trained and well equipped group could definitely win such a fight*.
So this point of Aethilmar is really quite moot.

*For example there was a situation during Operation Desert storm where a single USA tank destroyed several Iraqi tanks at point blank range. The outdated cannons of the Iraqi tanks simply couldn’t penetrate the plating of the Abrams. Just to point out that in reality it’s really not as simple as numbers > everything, especially not in the modern day.

That’s it! Introducing the new piece of siege, the Zerg Buster!

Players in Zergs generally haven’t or don’t want to experience the challenge of killing players outside their comfort level. Perfect example is when a small group splits off 5-10 from the back of a Zerg, that 5-10 gets RICK ROLLED 99% of the time because they were forced to open field and don’t know how to fight that style.

The reason none of you “this is war and war is huuuuuuge numbers winning” people dont want Anet to change anything is because you won’t be able to easily compete with skilled coordinated groups if mechanics force you to fight (OTHER HUMAN BEINGS) rather than the comfort zone of we have 10 more guys spam one we win.

Jscull.2514:

Players in Zergs generally haven’t or don’t want to experience the challenge of killing players outside their comfort level. Perfect example is when a small group splits off 5-10 from the back of a Zerg, that 5-10 gets RICK ROLLED 99% of the time because they were forced to open field and don’t know how to fight that style.

The reason none of you “this is war and war is huuuuuuge numbers winning” people dont want Anet to change anything is because you won’t be able to easily compete with skilled coordinated groups if mechanics force you to fight (OTHER HUMAN BEINGS) rather than the comfort zone of we have 10 more guys spam one we win.

I’m not really one to run with zergs all the time, but this is definitely NOT the reason some people prefer zergs. I’m sure there are those baddies out there, but a lot of people like zerg combat as much as small group combat. It’s a throwback to my DAoC days. Zerg combat is equally as enjoyable to me.

I’m not saying I’m the best player ever either, I have been destroyed in open field as many times as I have killed people if not more. But this is just an untrue blanket statement.

Aeon no its not. Otherwise more people would run outside of 15-20+. In Daoc our 8 man used to roll 20-60 people in a matter of 1-3 minutes. Why??? ZERO AOE CAP and no crappy rez system. This game has a ridiculous amount of first time mmoers who don’t know crap about fighting human being players in just about every environment.

Please answer why the 5-10 cut off from a Zerg die every single time in this game? And not “they were hit from behind” = pan your friggen camera.

You really want to know why? Because you are sitting in vent and they aren’t. That about sums up 99% of your “superiority”.

elinos.7493:

You really want to know why? Because you are sitting in vent and they aren’t. That about sums up 99% of your “superiority”.

I don’t disagree. It’s embarrassing they are not. To quote a dude from before "if 3 staff eles choke point a 30 man Zerg and kill them all…. It should be allowed. The morons in that 30 shouldn’t hve stood in the red circles. ". Hands down should be allowed. If youre dumb enough not to play in vent with groups that are focused on killing around, and then stand in circles or “clump up” and Aoe mows you down….learn those strategies don’t work. Shouldn’t be babied like Anet has created. Comfort zone lol.

Jscull.2514:

elinos.7493:

You really want to know why? Because you are sitting in vent and they aren’t. That about sums up 99% of your “superiority”.

I don’t disagree. It’s embarrassing they are not. To quote a dude from before "if 3 staff eles choke point a 30 man Zerg and kill them all…. It should be allowed. The morons in that 30 shouldn’t hve stood in the red circles. ". Hands down should be allowed. If youre dumb enough not to play in vent with groups that are focused on killing around, and then stand in circles or “clump up” and Aoe mows you down….learn those strategies don’t work. Shouldn’t be babied like Anet has created. Comfort zone lol.

Maybe…just maybe if we all foresake our jobs and family and glue our backsides to a chair and computer screen? Live on twinkies and soda as we game our pitiful lil lves away…we can all become as uber leet as Jscull.

Oh, be still my beating heart…

Jscull.2514:

Aeon no its not. Otherwise more people would run outside of 15-20+. In Daoc our 8 man used to roll 20-60 people in a matter of 1-3 minutes. Why??? ZERO AOE CAP and no crappy rez system. This game has a ridiculous amount of first time mmoers who don’t know crap about fighting human being players in just about every environment.

Please answer why the 5-10 cut off from a Zerg die every single time in this game? And not “they were hit from behind” = pan your friggen camera.

I have to respectfully disagree.

If we’re going to use sweeping generalizations, players are, by definition, average in skill.

The high use of large groups is a function of efficiency. You get more done by sticking with the pack, plain and simple. You survive longer, you cap more targets, you score more points, you get more loot.

Also, as much as the roamers and small scale fighters refuse to admit it, there is a skill involved in being a good large scale fighting team, the same as there is for small scale. It’s just a different skill set. If it were only based off of who presses 1 the hardest, you wouldn’t see certain guilds or commanders win the vast majority of their encounters.

Jscull.2514:

elinos.7493:

You really want to know why? Because you are sitting in vent and they aren’t. That about sums up 99% of your “superiority”.

I don’t disagree. It’s embarrassing they are not. To quote a dude from before "if 3 staff eles choke point a 30 man Zerg and kill them all…. It should be allowed. The morons in that 30 shouldn’t hve stood in the red circles. ". Hands down should be allowed. If youre dumb enough not to play in vent with groups that are focused on killing around, and then stand in circles or “clump up” and Aoe mows you down….learn those strategies don’t work. Shouldn’t be babied like Anet has created. Comfort zone lol.

What if a melee gets close to those 3 staff eles? Should the massive advantage they have at range mean that if a melee cuts the distance, he should be able to wreck 3 Elementalists at point blank?

30 people pressing 1 is a ridiculous amount of dps incoming. I really don’t care if I never get through to you “large scale is better because you win the meta better” this meta still sucks. Just like WAR gw2 will fail because it’s capture point objective based “pvp” where people care more about the points than they do about learning to beat better players. Sorry, will never sell copies after a year or two. It’s Been proven by war hammer online rift ect.

Tell us about how “war is large scale in real life and therefore should allow me to feel like general Patton when I log on” and always get stuck following some blue Dorito who may have less experience than you do, but got to the Hundy gold mark b4 you did.

In the end, you’ll never compete with good mmo pvpers. And the games like unchained that will require personal skill to develop in order to be successful in game, you will all cry and leave because it isn’t comfort land like Anet has so provided the masses to sell the most copies. Hellooooop wow 2.

Kami.7369:

Jscull.2514:

elinos.7493:

You really want to know why? Because you are sitting in vent and they aren’t. That about sums up 99% of your “superiority”.

I don’t disagree. It’s embarrassing they are not. To quote a dude from before "if 3 staff eles choke point a 30 man Zerg and kill them all…. It should be allowed. The morons in that 30 shouldn’t hve stood in the red circles. ". Hands down should be allowed. If youre dumb enough not to play in vent with groups that are focused on killing around, and then stand in circles or “clump up” and Aoe mows you down….learn those strategies don’t work. Shouldn’t be babied like Anet has created. Comfort zone lol.

What if a melee gets close to those 3 staff eles? Should the massive advantage they have at range mean that if a melee cuts the distance, he should be able to wreck 3 Elementalists at point blank?

You’re on to something. Absolutely. Cloth gets smoked by melee in every game. As a caster your skill becomes kiting. These aren’t new theories… Been in mmos for over a decade…

Covenant and because of you’re committment to the game, Anet has offered a terrible end game ranking system and encouraged the mindless following of other non combative players to the next (10 feet away) tower to gain points for the META!!

Raf.1078:

Maybe…just maybe if we all foresake our jobs and family and glue our backsides to a chair and computer screen? Live on twinkies and soda as we game our pitiful lil lves away…we can all become as uber leet as Jscull.

Oh, be still my beating heart…

I’m pretty sure everyone in PAXA has solid careers and have their priorities straight. Doesn’t mean we can’t still compete and want to be the best group out there.
I think just getting rid of the AoE cap would be just fine to even the playing field, even with having downstate in the game. It’s kind of unintuitive and unnatural for a group of greater than 5 people to want to ball together to avoid damage. Ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous that 100% of a 5 man group facing uneven odds will take AoE damage while 1/5th of a 25 man group will take AoE damage (if that not including clones and pets).

I’m a bad because I like large scale chaotic fights AND small scale warfare. This thread proves it I say!

Jscull.2514:

30 people pressing 1 is a ridiculous amount of dps incoming. I really don’t care if I never get through to you “large scale is better because you win the meta better” this meta still sucks. Just like WAR gw2 will fail because it’s capture point objective based “pvp” where people care more about the points than they do about learning to beat better players. Sorry, will never sell copies after a year or two. It’s Been proven by war hammer online rift ect.

Tell us about how “war is large scale in real life and therefore should allow me to feel like general Patton when I log on” and always get stuck following some blue Dorito who may have less experience than you do, but got to the Hundy gold mark b4 you did.

In the end, you’ll never compete with good mmo pvpers. And the games like unchained that will require personal skill to develop in order to be successful in game, you will all cry and leave because it isn’t comfort land like Anet has so provided the masses to sell the most copies. Hellooooop wow 2.

Warhammer Online died almost immediately after the patch that was intended to break up the zergs. By allowing small groups to easily take any objective the zerg was forced to leave individual groups at each to hope to defend long enough to flip the zone. So by having your zerg broken up into small man groups at each objective the enemy just rolled in with multiple groups to take one objective and cause the zone timer to reset once they take the objective back.

After that patch some of the larger guilds, mine included, left Warhammer. Breaking up the zergs is what killed Warhammer.

I don’t think anyone is talking about breaking up the zergs completely. As you can see in Devon’s quote, if the zerg is skilled then yes, they should be able to roll over a smaller group. It looks like ANet is trying to make GW2’s WvW a more skill based platform than number based. As it currently is, there’s hardly any skill involved in the mindless zerg, and yet it is still the most effective way (other than running an organized zerg) to play.

kratan.4619:

Warhammer Online died almost immediately after the patch that was intended to break up the zergs. By allowing small groups to easily take any objective the zerg was forced to leave individual groups at each to hope to defend long enough to flip the zone. So by having your zerg broken up into small man groups at each objective the enemy just rolled in with multiple groups to take one objective and cause the zone timer to reset once they take the objective back.

After that patch some of the larger guilds, mine included, left Warhammer. Breaking up the zergs is what killed Warhammer.

Yes that was it. It wasn’t that EA fired to many people after releasing a game that was not ready for release. It wasn’t that they promised Darkness Falls and gave the game LoTD, bumping the much needed class balance patch in the process. It wasn’t the exceptionally broken end game progression.

No it was because at some random point they broke up the zerg… wtf? Warhammer was much more tactical and interesting because of those changes, sorry that your one zerg for all occasions guild found it too complex.

osif.8673:

“Our goal is to continue to encourage organized large groups while giving small, tactical groups the necessary tools to put a dent into larger mobs of less-skilled players. We think that it can be fun to run around in a zerg — but we also think that the game should be about tactical acumen and skill more than sheer numbers.”

So…if we are a big zerg we are less skilled then ..say a 20 man team? Let me ask you this Devon. What did you think would happen when you put three servers on the same map and let them at each other? Did you think they would all split up into 20 man squads, or small scale pvp would happen?

Please, you guys are going to ruin your own game.

I have an idea come to Blackgate Server and run with ICoa for a while, or any of the guilds because they are all great people, and listen to what our commanders are saying. This way maybe you will get an idea of how things are being done.

Set up server discussion sessions with top people from each server and get their feedback and listen to what your player base is saying instead of making decisions because it is how you think the game should be played.

Aethilmar.3951:

Some things to think about:

totally agree
in 10 skilled players on TS, you CANT beat mindless zerg

osif.8673:

I don’t think anyone is talking about breaking up the zergs completely. As you can see in Devon’s quote, if the zerg is skilled then yes, they should be able to roll over a smaller group. It looks like ANet is trying to make GW2’s WvW a more skill based platform than number based. As it currently is, there’s hardly any skill involved in the mindless zerg, and yet it is still the most effective way (other than running an organized zerg) to play.

I am for this because in Tier 1 NA the mindless zerg of 60+ know better not to fight skilled WvW guilds fielding 30+ or even guild zergs vs guild zergs of equal size.

If they want to throw skill into the equation then they should add a couple of the spvp maps to wvw. Some tight close quarters action might be fun with 100 people,

Mister Mustard.7203:

Also, as much as the roamers and small scale fighters refuse to admit it, there is a skill involved in being a good large scale fighting team, the same as there is for small scale. It’s just a different skill set. If it were only based off of who presses 1 the hardest, you wouldn’t see certain guilds or commanders win the vast majority of their encounters.

Numbers plays a big part of those ‘vast majorities’ imo, but the other part is the commander. Being a good commander takes a lot of skill. For everyone else in the big giant zergball, what skill? Wearing PVT is not a skill. Stacking and blasting combo fields when told, is not a skill. Following a commander is not a skill, though given how many people fail at this maybe it should be.

In a zerg of 70 people though how many are actually using skill? The commander, maybe 5 or so other key people in the zerg, let’s say10%, more in a guild zerg. The rest are more or less following orders with little to no thought and I see this day after day while running with the zerg.

The issue with WvW as it stands right now is that the skill cap is exceedingly low, it is far to easy to run around playing with a giant zerg and not really get any better at the game.

Learning a game, like everything else, is largely about time spent, and how much risk you take on as part of your learning. A more hard core player is going to advance a lot faster, be a better player, but there are limits to that level of growth and eventually even the most casual player can and will catch up to at least a competitive level. This only happens though if you are put in a position where you must continue to learn and get better.

The skill cap being at ground level for most of the players means they never close that gap and the game becomes stagnant, limited in tactics, and overall boring meta.

I have no issues with zergs, I think they are a great introductory level for anyone new to WvW style of play. Exceedingly important in what it does, but there is more to the game and people as part of their natural progression should outgrow the zerg. In GW2 this is not happening.

Piteous.4165:

If they want to throw skill into the equation then they should add a couple of the spvp maps to wvw. Some tight close quarters action might be fun with 100 people,

but…but…How will the uplevels man all teh arrow carts?!?

Niim.9260:

Mister Mustard.7203:

Also, as much as the roamers and small scale fighters refuse to admit it, there is a skill involved in being a good large scale fighting team, the same as there is for small scale. It’s just a different skill set. If it were only based off of who presses 1 the hardest, you wouldn’t see certain guilds or commanders win the vast majority of their encounters.

I have no issues with zergs, I think they are a great introductory level for anyone new to WvW style of play. Exceedingly important in what it does, but there is more to the game and people as part of their natural progression should outgrow the zerg. In GW2 this is not happening.

Amen to you my friend. P R O G R E S S I O N is what keeps people playing the same game for years, not months.

As others have mentioned, the real issue is the map size, it’s just to small to foster small ops.

Right now a Mega Zerg can cross the map in time to save whatever location is being hit by a small ops team. The way point mechanic is also a big reason this is also the case, more so when 60+man float teams can just way point in from another map to save a keep etc…

With much larger maps Mega Zergs would be forced to breakup into multiple smaller response forces to maintain territory. Also over extending becomes the hazard it should be.

A lot of small groups seem to be wanting to be able to go head to head with a large zerg and wipe it. These are the same mindless tactics you are accusing the big zerg of using that you want applied to your small man group. Stand at a choke and AoE, really, that’s tactics?
My small group flourishes at denying the map to zergs, with the API changes and the supply traps, siege buffs, and invincible camp supervisors, y’all are obviously not getting the hint. My group (which refuses to go above 5 members, we form a second group at that point) runs to camps as the timer expires, drops a supply trap near the mindless entrance, on top of the supplies, and still has enough supplies to throw up 2 arrow carts to defend a tower or keep. We watch map chat for zerg movements and after about an hour of us being on the map, we have enough siege built on our structures to defend keeps and towers. Someone mentioned before “A zerg with no supplies is a useless zerg”, AMEN. They can run around open field fighting all day long, and not be able to make an advancement in PPT if your two small mans play well. You build catapults or flame rams, slowly drain the supply of their tier three towers, run when you see the zerg coming, and keep at it, they cant repair if they are out of supplies, meaning they are gonna help you in draining their own towers and keeps more for you.

You guys are TERRORISTS, NOT WAR HEROS, NOT SPARTANS. Persistence is the key. I don’t know what you guys expect ArenaNet to do in order to make your small five man group of Sun-Tzus and Sima-Yis be able to take out a 60 man group head on, but you are very obviously over inflated.

They build trebs to start advancing? You take your five man and you build an arrow cart and destroy that crap, their zerg isn’t going to sit on their trebuchet, and if they are, you bring your two five mans together temporarily and counter trebuchet that trebuchet.

You watch map chat for zerg movements, they make a move to your tower or keep? You better hope you know how to place arrow carts and can hit the gate with the four arrow carts you built while one spotter is watching for catapults, trebuchet, or counter carts.

There are almost no instances where a dedicated group of five cant wreak havoc on a group of 40-60. You guys are making the request to ArenaNet to have a lightweight beat the crap out of a heavyweight, as opposed to winning the fight with your head, your still trying to use your fists.

mezo.9568:

A lot of small groups seem to be wanting to be able to go head to head with a large zerg and wipe it. These are the same mindless tactics you are accusing the big zerg of using that you want applied to your small man group. Stand at a choke and AoE, really, that’s tactics?
My small group flourishes at denying the map to zergs, with the API changes and the supply traps, siege buffs, and invincible camp supervisors, y’all are obviously not getting the hint. My group (which refuses to go above 5 members, we form a second group at that point) runs to camps as the timer expires, drops a supply trap near the mindless entrance, on top of the supplies, and still has enough supplies to throw up 2 arrow carts to defend a tower or keep. We watch map chat for zerg movements and after about an hour of us being on the map, we have enough siege built on our structures to defend keeps and towers. Someone mentioned before “A zerg with no supplies is a useless zerg”, AMEN. They can run around open field fighting all day long, and not be able to make an advancement in PPT if your two small mans play well. You build catapults or flame rams, slowly drain the supply of their tier three towers, run when you see the zerg coming, and keep at it, they cant repair if they are out of supplies, meaning they are gonna help you in draining their own towers and keeps more for you.

You guys are TERRORISTS, NOT WAR HEROS, NOT SPARTANS. Persistence is the key. I don’t know what you guys expect ArenaNet to do in order to make your small five man group of Sun-Tzus and Sima-Yis be able to take out a 60 man group head on, but you are very obviously over inflated.

They build trebs to start advancing? You take your five man and you build an arrow cart and destroy that crap, their zerg isn’t going to sit on their trebuchet, and if they are, you bring your two five mans together temporarily and counter trebuchet that trebuchet.

You watch map chat for zerg movements, they make a move to your tower or keep? You better hope you know how to place arrow carts and can hit the gate with the four arrow carts you built while one spotter is watching for catapults, trebuchet, or counter carts.

There are almost no instances where a dedicated group of five cant wreak havoc on a group of 40-60. You guys are making the request to ArenaNet to have a lightweight beat the crap out of a heavyweight, as opposed to winning the fight with your head, your still trying to use your fists.

Wrong, our argument is to have more than 2-3 light/medium weights in the ring….maybe having 10-15 rather than 3 heavyweights and 2 lights. No dude, we dont want ez mode as small mans. Small mans implys just that, HARDER THAN ANY OTHER FORM to compete with heavyweight zergs. The argument is make it more realistic to be able to COMPETE…..not win all the time. Reread this thread, couple guys said well skilled/organized guilds/zergs should be able to beat small mans, but by using skill and coordination WHILE FIGHTING….not the games mechanics of aoe cap and downed state as well as small maps.

mezo.9568:

stuff

Some small man want to fight ppl not with siege, but with the skills on there bar. Yes I think a small group that knows what they are doing should be able to wipe a zerg. But if the zerg has half a brain they should kill them or make them run.

Also ppl that think PPT means anything is just silly cause it means nothing. PPT has nothing to do with skill 95% of the time, PPT is population. If the AOE cap was removed or brought to a decent number then I think servers with less pop have a better fighting chance if they have there kitten together.

Still funny how ppl still fight and think PPT means something.

It is NOT realistic to think that a 5 man can or should allowed to achieve parity or compete with a 60 man zerg. Each group “plays” a different strategy in game. Both groups should have different goals.

If the 2 happen to run across each other, the game shouldn’t give the advantage to the smaller group. The smaller group should just back off (or fight if they want to…but on even terms cause they chose to fight) and continue with whatever business they were about before they ran across the army. Not be accorded some sort of in game buff due to the size of their group…you chose to run the small group.

Raf.1078:

It is NOT realistic to think that a 5 man can or should allowed to achieve parity or compete with a 60 man zerg. Each group “plays” a different strategy in game. Both groups should have different goals.

If the 2 happen to run across each other, the game shouldn’t give the advantage to the smaller group. The smaller group should just back off and continue with whatever business they were about before they ran across the army. Not be accorded some sort of in game buff due to the size of their group…you chose to run the small group.

Im not talking 60 guys being taken down by 5….Im talkin LESS 60 MANS RUNNING AROUND and more groups want to compete via the group size or under 15. WHILE removing aoe cap.

Jscull.2514:

mezo.9568:

Me

Wrong, our argument is to have more than 2-3 light/medium weights in the ring….maybe having 10-15 rather than 3 heavyweights and 2 lights. No dude, we dont want ez mode as small mans. Small mans implys just that, HARDER THAN ANY OTHER FORM to compete with heavyweight zergs. The argument is make it more realistic to be able to COMPETE…..not win all the time. Reread this thread, couple guys said well skilled/organized guilds/zergs should be able to beat small mans, but by using skill and coordination WHILE FIGHTING….not the games mechanics of aoe cap and downed state as well as small maps.

You want to compete. As a lightweight. Against a heavyweight. And have the possibility of winning. You are still thinking with your fists. Fight with your brain. If you keep them drained, they have no choice but to break up and attempt to be at all possible locations. You just used your brain to turn your heavyweight into lightweights, on your level. Then you can have the fights you want.

subcrazy.1098:

mezo.9568:

stuff

Some small man want to fight ppl not with siege, but with the skills on there bar. Yes I think a small group that knows what they are doing should be able to wipe a zerg. But if the zerg has half a brain they should kill them or make them run.

Also ppl that think PPT means anything is just silly cause it means nothing. PPT has nothing to do with skill 95% of the time, PPT is population. If the AOE cap was removed or brought to a decent number then I think servers with less pop have a better fighting chance if they have there kitten together.

Still funny how ppl still fight and think PPT means something.

You joined World vs World, to have small fights? And don’t care about your worlds progress? Seems like you should be in SPvP.
And a small group should not be able to take out a large group head on. There is a reason that when the U.S. goes to war, it’s enemies hide, run small groups, and use guerrilla tactics. Only a novice would take their rebel group of 500 against an army of several million. You force them to fight on your level, read my previous reply and fight with your brain, stop trying to go head on.

mezo.9568:

You want to compete. As a lightweight. Against a heavyweight. And have the possibility of winning. You are still thinking with your fists. Fight with your brain. If you keep them drained, they have no choice but to break up and attempt to be at all possible locations. You just used your brain to turn your heavyweight into lightweights, on your level. Then you can have the fights you want.

This is not true in the current state of WvW unfortunately. There have been multiple situations where my server has taken just about every camp on an enemy bl (HoD has a decent amount of small groups running around on a nightly basis). A zerg comes in, and do they split up to reclaim all the camps? No, they flip one or two camps, each taking a matter of seconds, and go attack the nearest tower/keep. They own all of the towers/keeps – doesn’t matter. They’ll still run around as a zerg to flip the camps. There is no reason or incentive for them to split off, they are just as effective staying together and have a less chance of dying due to numbers. Mind you, we are talking about the mindless zerg here, not the organized zergs.

mezo.9568:

Jscull.2514:

mezo.9568:

Me

Wrong, our argument is to have more than 2-3 light/medium weights in the ring….maybe having 10-15 rather than 3 heavyweights and 2 lights. No dude, we dont want ez mode as small mans. Small mans implys just that, HARDER THAN ANY OTHER FORM to compete with heavyweight zergs. The argument is make it more realistic to be able to COMPETE…..not win all the time. Reread this thread, couple guys said well skilled/organized guilds/zergs should be able to beat small mans, but by using skill and coordination WHILE FIGHTING….not the games mechanics of aoe cap and downed state as well as small maps.

You want to compete. As a lightweight. Against a heavyweight. And have the possibility of winning. You are still thinking with your fists. Fight with your brain. If you keep them drained, they have no choice but to break up and attempt to be at all possible locations. You just used your brain to turn your heavyweight into lightweights, on your level. Then you can have the fights you want.

If i wanted to play RISK id be playing the board game. I am here to play against other players……so what you are suggesting isnt fun for our entire guild and guilds like us. We want to actually FIGHT and compete with skills and abilities….

Jscull.2514:

Raf.1078:

It is NOT realistic to think that a 5 man can or should allowed to achieve parity or compete with a 60 man zerg. Each group “plays” a different strategy in game. Both groups should have different goals.

If the 2 happen to run across each other, the game shouldn’t give the advantage to the smaller group. The smaller group should just back off and continue with whatever business they were about before they ran across the army. Not be accorded some sort of in game buff due to the size of their group…you chose to run the small group.

Im not talking 60 guys being taken down by 5….Im talkin LESS 60 MANS RUNNING AROUND and more groups want to compete via the group size or under 15. WHILE removing aoe cap.

Oh I see now…you want to make it mandatory that everyone else plays in small groups just like you.

osif.8673:

mezo.9568:

You want to compete. As a lightweight. Against a heavyweight. And have the possibility of winning. You are still thinking with your fists. Fight with your brain. If you keep them drained, they have no choice but to break up and attempt to be at all possible locations. You just used your brain to turn your heavyweight into lightweights, on your level. Then you can have the fights you want.

This is not true in the current state of WvW unfortunately. There have been multiple situations where my server has taken just about every camp on an enemy bl (HoD has a decent amount of small groups running around on a nightly basis). A zerg comes in, and do they split up to reclaim all the camps? No, they flip one or two camps, each taking a matter of seconds, and go attack the nearest tower/keep. They own all of the towers/keeps – doesn’t matter. They’ll still run around as a zerg to flip the camps. There is no reason or incentive for them to split off, they are just as effective staying together and have a less chance of dying due to numbers. Mind you, we are talking about the mindless zerg here, not the organized zergs.

When you take that camp, you have 100 supplies. Drop a few supply traps, then you have 5 minutes to go knocking on a tower or keep. They come back to take the camp, they get no supplies, even if they get the camp. They wipe out your scratch group hitting their keep tower, but cant repair without using tower/keep supply. Persistance! It works beautifully, I do it all the time! We have been able to SLOWLY turn a map in our favour, it just takes time, patience and persistence. I promise!

Mezo makes some good points, but I don’t see why raising/removing the damage AE cap and doing something about revives (add revive sickness, or just force them to waypoint) would hurt anything. Large groups would still have the advantage in a head on fight, but it wouldn’t be amplified by those two mechanics.

Raf.1078:

Oh I see now…you want to make it mandatory that everyone else plays in small groups just like you.

You’re quite dense, let me sum it up in a simple form of what Jscull is saying. Remove the AoE cap – add skill to WvW. Organized zergs will be fine as they’ll know how to deal with it, mindless zergs will suffer and be forced to get better at playing the game. Small strike teams will not be put at a disadvantage based on game mechanics, just based on the sheer numbers. As it is right now, it’s both numbers and game mechanics.