Guild Wars 2

misterman.1530:

McWolfy.5924:

There are 3 exist

Exits* – but yeah, that’s what I thought.

Tried it, they have people watching too. They have trebs facing spawn too. I partied one and his answer was to go to the eotm. They have so much siege facing spawn too funny so most people left the map. – Quoted by OP if you read the thread past the 3rd post…

Wow, this useless discussion has been allowed to continue for four days… did ANet get rid of its forum mods, or did they change the rules about matchup posting?

So many maps, so many exits. Even the T1 servers don’t have enough people to cover every exit on every map. If you’re getting spawn camped, I doubt you have any map queues (and if you have a map queue, you have plenty of people there to deal with spawn campers), so nothing keeps you on that map other than choosing to be stubborn.

Arguing about sportsmanship when it’s a subjective term is just silly and pointless (as is this entire thread). Shrug your shoulders, move to another map, and go on about your business.

DaveGan.8065:

Are you putting words in my mouth? Did you misread (or not read) the bit from me that you actually quoted? Because I’m pretty sure I agreed with pretty much what you said, albeit for a different reason.

Not really, if you think spawn camping is okay.

DaveGan.8065:

Your line about ongoing fight is naive and idealistic. While your “ongoing fight” may be the 5 minute skirmish, for others it is the week matchup.

If there is an ongoing fight at the spawn for the entire week, then you’re not talking about the same thing that the OP is talking about. Two servers that can maintain an ongoing fight in the same place for the entire week are not badly imbalanced, which is the problem the OP was talking about when a superior (read: significantly larger) force can keep a smaller force penned up such that they can have no effect on the map whatsoever, and can’t even build countersiege to break out.

DaveGan.8065:

More naivety. Do you really think getting farmed by a blob at a tower is somehow less discouraging than getting cut off by spawn campers? Because you will not get an even open field match with just the spawn campers, as much as you feel like numbers could be even and the siege might not be there.

It is, actually. You can do things when you’re at a tower in a way that you can’t when you’re stuck in your spawn. Nobody is talking about even open field matches, because those don’t exist except in the ridiculousness that is most gvg. People don’t play games to sit helpless and do nothing whatsoever.

DaveGan.8065:

I don’t think my argument (or any argument) requires a bandwagon of followers for validation. Moreover, I’m just echoing the thoughts of others in this thread before me (expect war and PvP in PvP zone, and go to PvE if you can’t handle it), just in more gory detail.

You equate being spawn camped with losing a keep, or having your multi-golem attack against a keep thwarted. But it’s not the same at all – those examples involve all of the participates doing something, as opposed to being spawn camped in the manner the OP described where they can do nothing. I don’t know why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

DaveGan.8065:

Wrong again. Even in war the Geneva convention and other rules of engagement apply. In this game those rules of engagement are set by ANet.

Please. The Geneva Convention protocol from 1977 prohibits attacks on civilians and methods or warfare which are intended, or may be anticipated, to cause widespread long-term and severe damage to the natural environment.

And yet, high-yield bombs are dropped by any country that you would consider “the good guys” and there are civilian casualties.

Infrastructures, including water and food generation ones, are regularly targeted as well. Nuclear arms are stockpiled and kept ready for use.

Don’t quote idealism when the reality doesn’t support it.

Dhampyr.2104:

If you’re getting spawn camped, I doubt you have any map queues

I had to laugh at this part… So if my server don’t have a map queue I deserve to be spawn camped?

I am amused…

Rimmy.9217:

Not really, if you think spawn camping is okay.

I don’t. I just don’t think low enemy morale has anything to do with why it’s not okay. How much more of your own narrative will you try and weave onto me?

Please. The Geneva Convention protocol from 1977 prohibits attacks on civilians and methods or warfare which are intended, or may be anticipated, to cause widespread long-term and severe damage to the natural environment.

And yet, high-yield bombs are dropped by any country that you would consider “the good guys” and there are civilian casualties.

Infrastructures, including water and food generation ones, are regularly targeted as well. Nuclear arms are stockpiled and kept ready for use.

Don’t quote idealism when the reality doesn’t support it.

More egocentricity and rampant non sequiturs.

Rules of engagement are meant to ensure (increase the likelihood of) humane treatment of prisoners, prevent the use of over-barbaric weapons (bayonets with triangle or serrated blades), and allow medics to tend to the wounded without massive amounts of fire.

The fundamental principles of rules of engagement still apply today on a micro level and are effective. While I will very readily concede their failure on a more macro level, that is not really what they are meant for anymore. There are treaties, economic sanctions, NATO/UN, and M.A.D. for the bigger issues.

Jeknar.6184:

Dhampyr.2104:

If you’re getting spawn camped, I doubt you have any map queues

I had to laugh at this part… So if my server don’t have a map queue I deserve to be spawn camped?

I am amused…

Wow, way to read part of the post and make assumptions. Just for clarification’s sake (although I thought my original post was pretty clear)… if you don’t have map queues, there’s nothing at all keeping you on the map being spawn camped. Move maps.

Dhampyr.2104:

Wow, way to read part of the post and make assumptions. Just for clarification’s sake (although I thought my original post was pretty clear)… if you don’t have map queues, there’s nothing at all keeping you on the map being spawn camped. Move maps.

I’m pretty sure you know that there are people who don’t like Borderland maps and only play on EBG… Just as there are people who hate EBG with passion and don’t go to it for anything. So while spawn camping is happening on EBG, the people that only like to play on EBG are more likely to just quit for the day than going to the other maps.

While making the enemy quit is a valid strategy to win ppt (no enemies mean you control everything longer), that mean the game will end up becoming dull for the week as there will be less and less people to fight.

Jeknar.6184:

I’m pretty sure you know that there are people who don’t like Borderland maps and only play on EBG… Just as there are people who hate EBG with passion and don’t go to it for anything. So while spawn camping is happening on EBG, the people that only like to play on EBG are more likely to just quit for the day than going to the other maps.

While making the enemy quit is a valid strategy to win ppt (no enemies mean you control everything longer), that mean the game will end up becoming dull for the week as there will be less and less people to fight.

I get you, and I’m definitely not defending spawn camping. Personally, I think it’s dumb. However, there are things that a player can do to get around it – and complaining about it in the forums isn’t one of the more successful ones.

While I have said it many times;

In a PvP enabled zone you control the actions of exactly one player.

Also;

IMHO, The reactions of people/gamers on both sides of a spawn camp can effect the future of WvW for both servers and the game mode.

Hi, I think spawn camping would discourage new players from coming to play WvW. There is a learning curve. I did not know about side exits for a long time.The veteran players probably have the best gear,armor and consumable items which is already a great advantage in WvW and I think if you add spawn camping for their first experience-i do not think they will come back.Please show some restraint and please do not ruin the game for newcomers unnecessarily.Please do not scare potential new WvW away.Gamers have other choices like other new games.WvW looks pretty deserted on my server and can use more new players.They will only come if it is fun!

Besides, think about this: If you’ve ever thought that WvW was ignored and getting stale because of lack of interest, griefing people to get them to not come back to it is just going to make sure it gets ignored further because less interest = less point in caring about it.

As I’ve said many times before in similar threads, spawn camping is not something that can currently be fixed. It’s done as a victory dance/middle finger to the server being camped, and sometimes there are server grudges so vast that it goes on for hours. Yes, even with people blocking the other exits using ballis and other siege so as to make it figuratively impossible to leave.

In another topic, someone suggested the rather colorful idea of putting mannable Megalaser turrets at spawn so that people could vaporize the campers. I thought it was amusing, but then I thought about it some more, and I actually think frying up your taunters with spawn lasers was a pretty good idea. It would be good for a laugh, and people would sure as hell stop camping if something like that existed.

It’s all nice there are side exits or other maps but in match ups like the one OP is in, even if you leave, the maps are either completely empty or there is a huge zerg chasing you. I play wvw for fun, not go work my socks of to get around the result of huge population imbalances. That’s not my job.

Filaha.1678:

Besides, think about this: If you’ve ever thought that WvW was ignored and getting stale because of lack of interest, griefing people to get them to not come back to it is just going to make sure it gets ignored further because less interest = less point in caring about it.

You pulled this card on me earlier and now it’s my turn to pull it back on you.

If people aren’t coming back, it’s because of the hugely lopsided match and not the spawn campers afterwards. Borrowing another analogy, the wound itself is far worse than the salt.

No the spawn campers don’t help the situation, but don’t even start scapegoating them for a much bigger issue that really is ANet’s responsibility to address.

DaveGan.8065:

Filaha.1678:

Besides, think about this: If you’ve ever thought that WvW was ignored and getting stale because of lack of interest, griefing people to get them to not come back to it is just going to make sure it gets ignored further because less interest = less point in caring about it.

You pulled this card on me earlier and now it’s my turn to pull it back on you.

If people aren’t coming back, it’s because of the hugely lopsided match and not the spawn campers afterwards. Borrowing another analogy, the wound itself is far worse than the salt.

No the spawn campers don’t help the situation, but don’t even start scapegoating them for a much bigger issue that really is ANet’s responsibility to address.

I didn’t say that that was the only reason people might leave and not come back. You should probably try reading what I’m saying before responding, and we can avoid huge arguments where you argue things I’m not talking about.

No, spawn camping is not the sole reason for someone to leave. But it’s definitely helping, which only hurts you and everybody else who does like to play WvW to chase out an already low percentage of the game’s playerbase so that Anet has even less reason to give a crap about WvW.

I don’t think I said it was the only issue either. I’m saying you’re chasing after a single fly while there’s a giant hornet’s nest behind you.

EDIT: On second thought, I think I’m going to call you on the bit about “arguing things I’m not talking about” too.

Your later posts calling me and those like me the problem with the WvW community (once I had reinforced what I was arguing) basically reinforces that you were limiting the scope of an earlier post and clarifying what you originally intended to say.

But again, forgive me for interpreting what looked like a generalization, as a generalization.

DaveGan.8065:

I don’t think I said it was the only issue either.

If people aren’t coming back, it’s because of the hugely lopsided match and not the spawn campers afterwards.

You directly said that spawn campers do not cause people to quit, just lopsided matches.

However, lopsided matches may go away in a week. Lopsided matches where people then go on to grief without punishment because it’s “legit strategy” just makes the community look terrible and be something one would rather not be a part of.

So while you’re right, and you didn’t say it was the only issue, you also denied that it would cause any more people to leave, which is pretty naive if you really think that. While I’m ready to admit that having unfair match-ups constantly could cause people to leave, you seem to be content in denying that people ruining the game for others for no gain outside of ruining the game for others is not a reason people would totally leave.

Your later posts calling me and those like me the problem with the WvW community

Actually, I said you and those like you were the problem with the GW2 community and, generally speaking, the community of all games with a competitive mode. You take it so seriously that you absolutely have to win to the point where you’ll do whatever you can to make people want to leave the game.

That pretty much defines you as a bad person. You’d rather have a higher arbitrary number at the end of a week that gains you nothing at the beginning of the week than realize that there are humans on the other side of your screen that didn’t buy the game to not enjoy it. It’s attitudes like that which kill games, or at least game modes.

It makes it even worse when WvW map completion is a requirement for total map completion, so I feel sorry for anyone who comes in for their map completion just to not be able to do anything.

The funny part about “go to EotM” is that FSB and her server have been spawn camping the blue corner for most of the day.

I am not against spawn camping, I have participated in it a bit and been on the receiving end. That said, how I personally derive fun, even from spawn camping, has no bearing whatsoever to how much fun the enemy is having. There are times when it is fun for me to know that we are totally preventing the enemy from even reaching the field. Overwhelming victory can be quite satisfying.

If you are just worried about not getting as much rewards there is a lot of PvE for that.

Filaha.1678:

It makes it even worse when WvW map completion is a requirement for total map completion, so I feel sorry for anyone who comes in for their map completion just to not be able to do anything.

I would be the first to advocate for getting rid of WvW completion for the Gift of Exploration. I would be the first to advocate for some better color randomization between weeks. (I personally lean toward the second option, as I feel players should have to fight for their PoIs and waypoints)

For the defenders of the policy who fall back to “a legendary should show you’ve participated in all aspects of the game”, I’ve challenged every single one of them to accept a PvP rank 20-30 requirement to buy Icy Runestones. I’ve yet to get an affirmative response from anyone when I bring PvP into the equation.

Until then, “if it’s red it’s dead” is perfectly defensible and I see no wrong in applying such a mentality in game. What do I do personally here? If it’s clear you’re not interested in PPT (going for a skill point, etc) I usually leave you alone. At worst I’ll attack you after you’ve gotten your skill point.

EDIT:

That pretty much defines you as a bad person.

No. I think it’s about time I wrote back here. It makes me a competitive person. Just because you’re not competitive doesn’t mean I’m a terrible individual. It means WvW is probably not the right game mode for you. Perhaps it’s time to take your own advice that even WvW is just a game, no matter how intense or intimidating the enemy looks. Don’t expect people to roll over for you just because you aren’t able or willing to adapt.

DaveGan.8065:

For the defenders of the policy who fall back to “a legendary should show you’ve participated in all aspects of the game”, I’ve challenged every single one of them to accept a PvP rank 20-30 requirement to buy Icy Runestones. I’ve yet to get an affirmative response from anyone when I bring PvP into the equation.

Or how about “Precursors are account-bound, so you have to find/mystic forge your own”? After all, RNG is a huge aspect of the game.

Until then, “if it’s red it’s dead” is perfectly defensible and I see no wrong in applying such a mentality in game.

DaveGan.8065:

No. I think it’s about time I wrote back here. It makes me a competitive person. Just because you’re not competitive doesn’t mean I’m a terrible individual. It means WvW is probably not the right game mode for you. Perhaps it’s time to take your own advice that even WvW is just a game, no matter how intense or intimidating the enemy looks. Don’t expect people to roll over for you just because you aren’t able or willing to adapt.

See, it’s the degree to how far you take it, though.

I mean, since I’ve already said it, I’m obviously not saying you have to spare hurt feelings by letting people cap things. The point of the game mode is to capture places, defend them, etc. Killing people in the context of that is just doing what you’re supposed to do. Sure, it might be demoralizing to use 10 golems to raze a keep to the ground, but your goal is, in fact, to capture keeps. And as I’ve already said, if you’re holding an enemy group at their spawn because you’ve got another group of people behind you capping their keep and you’re holding them off their backs, that’s another thing. That’s strategy.

Camping a spawn and building siege outside of it so people can’t even step out of their invincible zone without getting hit by multiple ballistae when you already own everything and won’t possibly lose? That’s not playing how the game mode is meant to be played. That’s not “being competitive”. It’s just being an kitten . It’s not really any different from a high level ranged character running around following a melee low level and one-shotting all the monsters they go to attack before they manage to hit them. You could make the argument that they could just go to another map or stop playing until the high level is gone, but that doesn’t make it something that should be happening.

It’s the difference between yes and no when you ask yourself the question: “Is this making a difference?”

If you’ve got a team capturing a keep and you’re spawn camping to hold defenders back from making it to the keep to defend, are you making a difference? Yes, absolutely.

If you’re already going to win because you outnumber the other side by a huge degree and can send a zerg to defend/recapture something they could only send a handful of people to attack, are you really making a difference by spawn-camping? No. The only difference you’re making is in kittening off an already shrinking population of the game so that there’s less point in any development going towards it.

Being competitive doesn’t give you licence to be an kitten .

Besides, if you’re so competitive, wouldn’t you want as many people as possible to compete against? Seems self-defeating to claim to be competitive and yet outright state that you intentionally do what you can to make people not want to play so they leave. That doesn’t sound like you’re competitive to me at all. Just sounds like you find pleasure in having a large arbitrary number for a week and don’t even care about the competition to get there.

Truly competitive people would rather have as many people as possible to fight against so they could actually be competing.

It’s the difference between yes and no when you ask yourself the question: “Is this making a difference?”

This is exactly what I’ve been saying is the reason why I don’t support spawn camping. My statements on hurt feelings were hyperboles that you probably took too literally.

If you take anything too personally while a match is still competitive, it’s on you, not me. If, on the other hand, the match gets lopsided way too soon, that’s an issue to take to ANet.

Besides, if you’re so competitive, wouldn’t you want as many people as possible to compete against? Seems self-defeating to claim to be competitive and yet outright state that you intentionally do what you can to make people not want to play so they leave.

I’m going to be intense about WvW when I’m in there. I’m going to try to be unpredictable, chase you down, kill you over and over, making you constantly look over your shoulder. I want you to offer me that same experience in response, rather than quit over it. It just happens that being ruthless (while the match is still competitive) serves a dual purpose of weeding out the people for whom WvW is not the best game mode for.

Truly competitive people would rather have as many people as possible to fight against so they could actually be competing.

As nice as this statement sounds, I don’t want anyone going to WvW who wouldn’t enjoy being there. These are the things that destroy the competitiveness of WvW: people who can’t handle PvP, people who can’t handle trash talk, and people who don’t want to constantly look over their shoulder.. For casual PvE there’s loot pinatas world bosses. For casual WvW there’s EotM.

You’re always welcome in WvW, but please bring some intensity when you come and be prepared to face equal or greater intensity. Expect to adapt to WvW, not for WvW to adapt to you.

(edited: somehow didn’t load my bit about “casual WvW = EotM”)

They looking for a fight, when nobody is there to fight, they wait right outside until someone like you logs in, so they can fight you.

It is World versus World. Not Love ur Neighbour.

schnitzel.9018:

It is World versus World. Not Love ur Neighbour.

… This gives me a hilarious April Fool’s idea. Everybody gets a “Give Peace a Chance!” buff where any damage you receive from enemy players is instantly converted to healing. Nobody can kill anybody else.

uberkingkong.8041:

They looking for a fight, when nobody is there to fight, they wait right outside until someone like you logs in, so they can fight you.

I don’t really call that a fight…

This thread is a complete train wreck.

……but I just can’t look away.

just want to add this ….
rather annoying week on gunnars hold

did this in EB for about 30 min yesterday. The commander was using it as a teaching tool. The spawn point gave us a large group of determined enemy coming from one direction that we could work on (actually more of them that us). They did eventually beat us, of course, since they could port back and we couldn’t.

I hope they weren’t demoralized. We didn’t mean to demoralize them, only embarrass their leadership for having let us flip their keep. And farm them a bit.

Alegra.7461:

just want to add this ….
rather annoying week on gunnars hold

This must be a problem with your guilds/commanders not being able to draw a following. You need a few big egos to tag up.

With 15 people you, could push them off that siege.

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

Alegra.7461:

just want to add this ….
rather annoying week on gunnars hold

This must be a problem with your guilds/commanders not being able to draw a following. You need a few big egos to tag up.

With 15 people you, could push them off that siege.

well we did it with 10 later on … it’s just frustrating…

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

Alegra.7461:

just want to add this ….
rather annoying week on gunnars hold

This must be a problem with your guilds/commanders not being able to draw a following. You need a few big egos to tag up.

With 15 people you, could push them off that siege.

Awareness fail on your part: Gunnar’s Hold is currently in a matchup with two guilds that are from two tiers higher than it is. You can’t “draw a following” out of “nobody is on/willing to WvW right now”.

This part of the game can actually be a lot of fun. To get the party started you need someone with huge confidence in their ability to run the battle. Doesn’t matter if they can or not, only that they are ready to launch into the process.

What you need is someone willing to lead.

Oh we have commanders willing to take it straight to the enemy. Unfortunately this is the 6th match in a row where we’re outnumbered by at least two or three times our numbers and offpeak is worse, so there are times of day when we’re ticking 5 whole points.

if you’re being spawn camped use your brain XD use another route to get to your destination, otherwise you’re good for fodder atleast, this way the people that do think can get to where they need without problems, yes thats harsh but if you dont wanna be fodder, use the brain you were gifted with, yes it hurts when you start to think after not haveing to use it after 10 years. XD my little brother has that same problem. brains my fiend, its a useful tool.

Reviera.5183:

if you’re being spawn camped use your brain XD use another route to get to your destination, otherwise you’re good for fodder atleast, this way the people that do think can get to where they need without problems, yes thats harsh but if you dont wanna be fodder, use the brain you were gifted with, yes it hurts when you start to think after not haveing to use it after 10 years. XD my little brother has that same problem. brains my fiend, its a useful tool.

People with brains read the thread:

Jay.7546:

Tried it, they have people watching too. They have trebs facing spawn too. I partied one and his answer was to go to the eotm. They don’t even let you duel fairly. The bali hits you if you fight them. They have so much siege facing spawn too funny so most people left the map. WvW EB is dead because of this.

The point was they couldn’t get out of spawn anywhere.