Guild Wars 2

I open this topic to speak about medium armor in WvW.

In the current meta, these 3 professions (rangers, thieves and engi) are a bit left aside imo.
Of course, thieves are really good for roaming, but Mesmers and Ele too….
Engineers can deal a good amount of damage with grenades (if the ennemies aren’t on ret), but still deal less damage than Ele.
Rangers are useful for their roots, but relies too much on their pets, and again an Ele with static field does the same (but countered by stability).

In LA and on forum you often see guild recruitments like “WvW guild lf guardians / mesmers / necro”…. Have you ever seen something like “WvW guild lf engi and rangers” ?

I honestly think that medium armor are a bit too “medium”. They have lots of possibilities, but everything they do, another class can do it better. So in an optimised guild, they’re useless.

But I might be wrong : so my questions, for all the raid leaders here :

• do you have medium armor in your raid ?
• if yes, what are their role ? damage ? support ? debuff ?
• what would you propose to improve their role in a raid (not roaming) ?
• do you think the problem is about mentalities (why engi ?? I want an ele !) or about the design of these professions ?

Not because of the armor, it is about what they bring to a teamfight. And you see more and more engis in raids and GvGs. We run 2-3 engis of our own for waterfields/blasting/CC or heavy nuke damage.

Thiefs are THE class chosen to roam in GvGs and they often help blasting in raids or burst squishy targets down.

A ranger is just useless to its group.

MiLkZz.4789:

A ranger is just useless to its group.

This is incorrect. While admittedly playing other classes are better at specific things saying a ranger is useless is wrong. When specced correctly they have plenty of survivability, heaps of aoe immobilize, and one of the most dependable vulnerability stacks in the game.

Jorjeis.2169:

MiLkZz.4789:

A ranger is just useless to its group.

This is incorrect. While admittedly playing other classes are better at specific things saying a ranger is useless is wrong. When specced correctly they have plenty of survivability, heaps of aoe immobilize, and one of the most dependable vulnerability stacks in the game.

They do, I admit that. But they don’t fit into any role in the current meta. Not a role an other class can do way better, more efficiently that is.

- i am a thief lol
- my role? cheerleader… probably…jokes aside, more of havoc squad, scout, person with sieg masteries lol
- more team support, thieves serverly lack it (venom share is not the solution)
- issues for zerg? too squishy, no stability/protection, lack of team support, too focused on single target dmg -> SB being only real source of AoE, no real AoE CCs, so why bring thief in to fight a zerg when you can bring classes that actually have support, aoe CCs and dmg

thieves are still good roamers though, but this is not what topic is about

When it comes to medium armor it is down to mentality first, and profession design afterwards.

Take rangers. They are hated through and through by pretty much every player around. Why? Because once upon a time, they all tried to play it at some point, they couldn’t get the hang of it (it is NOT supposed to be an archer, if you try play as one, you die) due to the treacherous design. Most players fall into this design pitfall, making rangers seem weak and useless.
90% of rangers, are useless because the person behind the character got no clue what he/she is supposed to do, or how to build. So a profession made to be a all-round master just ends up being way too hard to play for most people. The main grief of the ranger is that learning to use the profession mechanic (pet) is like learning to how to fly a jet-fighter from reading comics. Sure you’ll learn it, eventually, give or take some years.

Engineers suffer from the same issue as rangers. They are hard to play at full capacity, this means that the community at large deem them “weak”. However engineers can dish out ridiculous amounts of conditions, so somewhere along the line the community had had their rear ends handed to them enough times to understand that it is far from useless if played well. However the definition of “a well played engi” is something like that of a legendary hero. This is why most engineers are ignored because noone seem to meet that “god-mode skill requirement” in the “Pro skill group” players eyes.

Thieves, are fine. They got a purpose, which they fulfill, it is up to the community to find a way to utilize and capitalize on that role. At this point, new strategies that includes rapid assassination of the backline or something of that sort must be developed/planned, before thieves should be changed further.

Prysin.8542:

90% of rangers, are useless because the person behind the character got no clue what he/she is supposed to do, or how to build. So a profession made to be a all-round master just ends up being way too hard to play for most people. The main grief of the ranger is that learning to use the profession mechanic (pet) is like learning to how to fly a jet-fighter from reading comics. Sure you’ll learn it, eventually, give or take some years.

I have logged hundreds of WvW hours and thousands of kills on my Ranger which includes pet/regen, power based and evasion builds. I have played even more fighting against the class with a thief, warrior, elementalist and guardian. In all that time I have learned one very important rule… if you die mostly from Ranger attacks you did something wrong. If you have one in your group, they are more of a liability than a help.

I like playing the class but after running with several other classes they are lackluster at best and outright kitten at the worst.

MiLkZz.4789:

We run 2-3 engis of our own for waterfields/blasting/CC or heavy nuke damage.

Could you explain more the advantages of the engi ?
I mean, El can drop water field and Warriors bring lots of CC and blasting…

For me, the good point for engi in this case is that they’re able to create water field and to blast it 3/4 times (or more). So it’s a bit more effective than with Ele : quicker and less blasting miss…

I don’t really know ranger, but I think they don’t have AoE pet skills…. or maybe just one (the skill bound to the pet). So their pets aren’t really effective in big fights. Imo, this profession is the most left aside class in WvW…

But I agree that part of the problem comes from the common ignorance of the mechanisms of those professions. When I ask a raid leader if I can join the group with my engi, he is like “meh…. don’t you have a guardian ?”. So now I don’t ask anymore, and pick him

This game has been out a year. There are hundreds of thousands of players playing it. If the Ranger had any redeeming quality it would have been spotted by now. While there are good and bad players for every class, the class is the problem people have issue with when it comes to Rangers, not the player.

The answer to this thread was in the second post… the medium armor classes bring the least to a group. What little they do bring is either done better by another class or the other class is simply more versatile when providing it.

No class is outright useless, but some classes don’t bring enough to be useful. It just so happens that three least useful classes are all wearing medium armor.

Markus.9084:

MiLkZz.4789:

We run 2-3 engis of our own for waterfields/blasting/CC or heavy nuke damage.

Could you explain more the advantages of the engi ?
I mean, El can drop water field and Warriors bring lots of CC and blasting…

For me, the good point for engi in this case is that they’re able to create water field and to blast it 3/4 times (or more). So it’s a bit more effective than with Ele : quicker and less blasting miss…

I don’t really know ranger, but I think they don’t have AoE pet skills…. or maybe just one (the skill bound to the pet). So their pets aren’t really effective in big fights. Imo, this profession is the most left aside class in WvW…

But I agree that part of the problem comes from the common ignorance of the mechanisms of those professions. When I ask a raid leader if I can join the group with my engi, he is like “meh…. don’t you have a guardian ?”. So now I don’t ask anymore, and pick him

Krytan Drakehound – 4-5 sec immob, 600 AOE. Adds cripple if traited
Fern Hound – 2000 direct heal + 4000 regen over 14 sec, 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Wolf – 1-2 sec fear 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Polar Bear – AOE Chill
Brown Bear – AOE Condition Cleanse
Black Bear – AOE Weakness
Murwellow – 240 diameter poison field, 7sec duration
Snow Wolf – AOE Chill
Red Moa – AOE Fury
White Moa – AOE Chill
Jungle Stalker – AOE Might
All birds – AOE Swiftness within attack-chain
All moa’s – AOE healing within melee range (3000 direct heal)

Prysin.8542:

(..)

I said “the skill bound to the pet”…. again, I beg your pardon for not knowing perfectly this profession.

Markus.9084:

Prysin.8542:

(..)

I said “the skill bound to the pet”…. again, I beg your pardon for not knowing perfectly this profession.

we got shouts affecting pet, but they are so bad their simply not worth mentioning

Engies redeeming qualities, as requested. Besides the water fields and blasting, the flamethrower is a very good PBAoE attack that can hit behind a gate to take out rams and attackers, bombs, when specced are a good option as well. Not only is it a very hard hitting PBAoE, but can also provide a bit of healing for those allies in the area. A condition engie can put every condition except torment and fear, and can get torment with a sigil, and if condi grenades, it’s aoe. Speaking of grenades, they are very useful in group fights as it’s one of the few AoE abilities in the game that breaks the 5 man rule. Each grenade is a seperate attack, base throwing two, traited three, so there is the potential to hit up to 15 people, usually 7-10 if thrown into a group.
Group support, engies have the water fields/blasts, fire fields, poison fields, smoke fields, and group regen. With Elixers, you can add group stability, group stealth, condi removal, and other buffs like might or fury.
Overall, the engie’s greatest advantage is versatility, if you know how to use it for the situation. They do have a high skill requirement though, it will take practice to learn an engie, a bad engie dies fast, a good one, however, is a very scary thing to meet on a battlefield.

Flamthrower through a door can instant-kill you. Attackers often pack on door, and guardians create light field with their hammer. If they’re on ret, you’re dead.

Same for grenades, but ret is not so commonin big groups. And grenades don’t deal that much damage, they’re good for spamming conditions (burning and bleeding) on a large group. And the damages are limited by the huge condi cleaner in those groups… However, I agree, grenades are ok. But the damage output is still less than what an ele can do.

The question is not “what can they do ?”, but “what can they do better than others, what are precisely their roles in WvW, apart roaming ?”.

Engis are increasingly being used in organized groups, but they are still weak in militia zergs because their useful skills require exacting coordination.

Thieves will always be the best gank class in WvW, and while they have little use supporting the melee train besides a blast finisher and some minor snaring with daggerstorm, their use a zerg can be a situationally unique contributor like mesmers. A thief can stealth in to get a player off an AC in lord room, refuge mesmers for portal bombs, gank and stomp an individual player to rally allies faster than anyone else. Acting as a diversion using a generic shadow arts build is also somewhat useful.

Rangers are sub-par compared to other class in zergs and disadvantaged in WvW roaming for a few reasons, but can be a useful contributor if built and played correctly. In militia zergs there is no such thing as too many water fields and there is usually a shortage of staff eles that accurately ground target healing rain. Rangers have a big water with a shorter cool down that also cures conditions and gives boons, and they have a blast on their horn that also provides useful boons. Just doing that makes you more of a contributor than most players. Using entangle and muddy terrain or traps effectively is an added bonus.

People are not wrong when they say everything a ranger can do, some other class can do better, but there’s simply never *too many players that listen and do their job, which rangers can do and thus be useful. A full zerker bear bow with no defensive skills that becomes a rally bot in 0.1 seconds is not useful, and the legions of rangers trying to play like that is why they have such a terrible rep in WvW.

I’d say the medium professions are mostly “versatility” fighters.
You say “still less then what an ele can do”. Then again, ask yourself the question, which has the greatest likelihood of surviving? A DPS staff ele, or a kit engi? From my experience, the kit engi is a whole lot harder to kill then a staff ele, if we ignore any form of protection from group members. So while the ele might do between 5 and 10% more damage, it is a more “volatile” gamble for a team. If the other team has a thief, that ele becomes a rallybot, as it has no way of defending itself against a thief. All the medium professions have evades/blocks/invuln in their specs/at disposal to avoid instant death by backstab. So while medium professions are doing less DPS at first glance, they provide a tougher, more tanky option to the light armors. They also bring a whole lot of group support if specced for it.

The only reason why people associate the medium armor professions with roaming is because that is the only setting where their durability and toughness are made blatantly obvious. You simply cannot bring them down without giving your best. Unlike a bunker heavy or bunker light armor, which will go down eventually due to lack of evades and DPS.

The final question one should ask is not “what can they do?” but “What role should they fill?”. Personally, if i met a 15 man group with a few condi kit engis and spirit rangers. I’d run for it. Because that group would dump more conditions on you then a zerg full of necros.

zen.6091:

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Rangers are sub-par compared to other class in zergs and disadvantaged in WvW roaming for a few reasons, but can be a useful contributor if built and played correctly. In militia zergs there is no such thing as too many water fields and there is usually a shortage of staff eles that accurately ground target healing rain. Rangers have a big water with a shorter cool down that also cures conditions and gives boons, and they have a blast on their horn that also provides useful boons. Just doing that makes you more of a contributor than most players. Using entangle and muddy terrain or traps effectively is an added bonus.

People are not wrong when they say everything a ranger can do, some other class can do better, but there’s simply never a shortage of players that listen and do their job, which rangers can do and thus be useful. A full zerker bear bow with no defensive skills that becomes a rally bot in 0.1 seconds is not useful, and the legions of rangers trying to play like that is why they have such a terrible rep in WvW.

The ranger is sub-par in specific strenghts, the benefit of the ranger is that it can fill multiple roles with 1 build and still function properly. Hybrid builds actually do work with rangers, giving them the advantage of support, tank and DPS at the same time.

And yes, the bearbow pest is becoming a major hassle. However do not underestimate the bears, they are great tools, if used correctly (Sigil of Renewal + brown bear; pull all conditions from allies to bear, bear has massive HP pool, so it will take them all before it dies)

What’s wrong with having classes that are good for roaming? I think a lot of people are ‘zerg-minded’ and ball up all the time. I think on upper tiers, WvW is like 90% balling up. On lower tiers, maybe 50% of WvW is balling up and the rest of us like to havoc/roam.

Engis are great for roaming and 1v1. Permanent swiftness and tons of condis. Thieves we do not need to rehash as everyone is aware of thief roamers. Rangers are great for solo roaming or small group. Annoying long stability (when I don’t run corrupt against a ranger, I am screwed) or binding roots that can keep anybody that is condi immobilized for ages. I’m terrible on my ranger so I can’t really go in depth as to the advantages. I know they are usually tough to fight 1v1.

Avatar of Belle.9623:

What’s wrong with having classes that are good for roaming? I think a lot of people are ‘zerg-minded’ and ball up all the time. I think on upper tiers, WvW is like 90% balling up. On lower tiers, maybe 50% of WvW is balling up and the rest of us like to havoc/roam.

My point was to show that other professions, such as Warriors and Mesmers, are often used in zerg AND can do well in 1 vs 1 or in roaming. With medium armor, in the current meta, you have choice between roaming…. and roaming.

Prysin :
Your point of view is very interessant. You’re maybe right…. maybe the surviving abilities and the utilities can balance the lack of damage. Personnaly, I think that with the current downed-state system, it’s better to send tons of damage, then eventually die and hope for a rallying. However, it would be interessant to see more medium in long fights.
As for the group support, I’ve seen in the past a build for thieves, based on poison and boon removal, designed to kill the raid leader of a zerg. I think it could be a way to give thieves more importance in a raid. If you cut his head, the snake is already dead. However, I’ve never seen this build being played, and i’m not sure it’s really working, because now leaders playing heavies are really, really tanky…

This is my quick and dirty evaluation on the cons of roaming on different classes.

Guardian = slow, relatively low mobility (versus warrior), few cripples/slows.
Necro = no mobility, either win or die.
Ele = probably good for both roaming and zerging
Mesmer = boring to play in zerg. Relegated to veil and portal machinese. I would rather roam on a mesmer since it would be more fun.
Warrior = Anets favorite class. Just give them portal and they’ll be able to do anything!

Honestly it would be great if every class was viable for every situation with different speccs. But I don’t think that’s possible unless you make a very bland game. The Mediums have their own niche and I rather not see them get “buffed” to be viable or on par with the other classes, cause one of two things usually happens. 1. Another class will fall out of favor or 2. they become a carbon copy of another class, just a different title.

I see and hear a lot of complaints about this on the forums and in my Voip. But in the end someones always “but this class can also bring and has better…”. The Mediums, will always counter with how they can provide blank blank, and love their class can do blah blah and the other class can’t.

There’s a reason for that, and if they give your class everything that is good about the other class, they will ultimately have to take everything you love about your class away to “balance” things.

Prysin.8542:

I’d say the medium professions are mostly “versatility” fighters.

The final question one should ask is not “what can they do?” but “What role should they fill?”. Personally, if i met a 15 man group with a few condi kit engis and spirit rangers. I’d run for it. Because that group would dump more conditions on you then a zerg full of necros.

I agree on the versatility part, we can fight any role nicely and sometimes we can do everything decently at once. Also wanted to chime in a bit on the second part, as part of a guild that frequently runs without 10 engies at once in wvw, its not the conditions that you should be afraid of, its the multiple healing turrets and heal bombs that keep everybody healthy and very hard to kill on even numbers

I play engi as my main toon. However I also play my thief, warrior, staff ele depending on the need of the zerg. I would say, it really does take a lot of skill to play the engi really well. They are the most versatile but since they are hard to play, or to master, most give up before actually getting the full potential of the profession. My thief is exclusive for following enemy zerg or as my mobile scout which I also enjoy a lot.

Playing my warrior, ele and guardian seems like a walk in the park because of the less piano like movements you do when hitting them buttons. So since there are few good people who could maximise their engis, it does not reflect well for the profession. Also, there are few commanders who could utilise them well. I know some in BG like Blackest Fury who would specifically call for supply drops for both stun and heals. So maybe commanders also need to adjust and take account their zerg population.

Medium armor is to keep the player light on their feet while not giving them ridiculous speed. They can play almost every weapon, ‘cept engineers who have a flamethrower or whatever they’ve picked, no true alt bank of skills.

Thieves, well. I hate thieves. I wouldn’t do anything to them except nerf a few more traits since the last patch did nothing. Still way over powered in a roaming environment and perfect for havoc. Useless in the zerg.

I think the thing that is toughest about medium armor classes is that they are difficult to master. A player cannot just mash the 1 key and survive the melee, they have to dodge, swap skills, think about which pet to use (any spider can immobilize and provide AoE poison) and when to swap them, heal, drop conditions, etc, etc. That’s the real trick, learn your class. People also need to learn when it’s time to run, live to fight another day.

I truly believe the ranger class is under-appreciated. We do have good AoE from the pets (as listed above) and we are very good at single missions where more than one person gets noticed. In a small group you have the perfect scout with high survivability, ways to stops foes with muddy terrain and entangle and one of the best heals that exists. I read so many posts where the perma stealth thief pegs the ranger first with their backstab because they’re squishy. My ranger is rank 138 with 5800 kills, I don’t view myself as squishy. Do I do throw astronomical DPS, no, but I am a kitten ton of mobility over a warrior or guardian while plaguing them endlessly. 1V1 I am confident I can beat any heavy armor class despite the difference in DPS. I struggle with Mesmers and thieves…..but I am building a Mesmer so perhaps that will change, time will tell.

Engy’s are awesome in roaming, havoc, and zerg play. Depending how I change my spec around, I can front, mid or backline in zergs. It just requires a bit more skill than other classes which is why I usually just bring my necro and faceroll when I feel like zerging (which is rare). I’d much rather run small man havoc, or roam solo. Thieves have roles in all 3 as well. So, basically this thread is about rangers. I can’t help you there.

Prysin.8542:

Markus.9084:

MiLkZz.4789:

We run 2-3 engis of our own for waterfields/blasting/CC or heavy nuke damage.

Could you explain more the advantages of the engi ?
I mean, El can drop water field and Warriors bring lots of CC and blasting…

For me, the good point for engi in this case is that they’re able to create water field and to blast it 3/4 times (or more). So it’s a bit more effective than with Ele : quicker and less blasting miss…

I don’t really know ranger, but I think they don’t have AoE pet skills…. or maybe just one (the skill bound to the pet). So their pets aren’t really effective in big fights. Imo, this profession is the most left aside class in WvW…

But I agree that part of the problem comes from the common ignorance of the mechanisms of those professions. When I ask a raid leader if I can join the group with my engi, he is like “meh…. don’t you have a guardian ?”. So now I don’t ask anymore, and pick him

Krytan Drakehound – 4-5 sec immob, 600 AOE. Adds cripple if traited
Fern Hound – 2000 direct heal + 4000 regen over 14 sec, 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Wolf – 1-2 sec fear 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Polar Bear – AOE Chill
Brown Bear – AOE Condition Cleanse
Black Bear – AOE Weakness
Murwellow – 240 diameter poison field, 7sec duration
Snow Wolf – AOE Chill
Red Moa – AOE Fury
White Moa – AOE Chill
Jungle Stalker – AOE Might
All birds – AOE Swiftness within attack-chain
All moa’s – AOE healing within melee range (3000 direct heal)

cool. but how do you want to use it in large fights? pets die instantly or just run up and back as you change targets. buffs are slow and short and the pet just stand while cast. condy removes remove roots and aoe destroy them. we cant give real boons to the party and our blast is slow. my warrior with 0 points on strenght trait line has as much dmg as my power ranger has. my warrior bring aoe cc and 3600 armor while ranger 3200 armor and single target dmg

AFAIK engi is the only profession who can constantly hit up to 15+ enemies from range. Hitting 15 players with chill, poison, blind, bleed and vulnerability is invaluable in WvW zerg battles. Sure, conditions can be cleansed, even more in a large blob. But engis reapply conditions every now and than. On the other side engis are punished extremely hard by retaliation. High risk, high reward.

McWolfy.5924:

Prysin.8542:

Markus.9084:

MiLkZz.4789:

We run 2-3 engis of our own for waterfields/blasting/CC or heavy nuke damage.

Could you explain more the advantages of the engi ?
I mean, El can drop water field and Warriors bring lots of CC and blasting…

For me, the good point for engi in this case is that they’re able to create water field and to blast it 3/4 times (or more). So it’s a bit more effective than with Ele : quicker and less blasting miss…

I don’t really know ranger, but I think they don’t have AoE pet skills…. or maybe just one (the skill bound to the pet). So their pets aren’t really effective in big fights. Imo, this profession is the most left aside class in WvW…

But I agree that part of the problem comes from the common ignorance of the mechanisms of those professions. When I ask a raid leader if I can join the group with my engi, he is like “meh…. don’t you have a guardian ?”. So now I don’t ask anymore, and pick him

Krytan Drakehound – 4-5 sec immob, 600 AOE. Adds cripple if traited
Fern Hound – 2000 direct heal + 4000 regen over 14 sec, 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Wolf – 1-2 sec fear 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Polar Bear – AOE Chill
Brown Bear – AOE Condition Cleanse
Black Bear – AOE Weakness
Murwellow – 240 diameter poison field, 7sec duration
Snow Wolf – AOE Chill
Red Moa – AOE Fury
White Moa – AOE Chill
Jungle Stalker – AOE Might
All birds – AOE Swiftness within attack-chain
All moa’s – AOE healing within melee range (3000 direct heal)

cool. but how do you want to use it in large fights? pets die instantly or just run up and back as you change targets. buffs are slow and short and the pet just stand while cast. condy removes remove roots and aoe destroy them. we cant give real boons to the party and our blast is slow. my warrior with 0 points on strenght trait line has as much dmg as my power ranger has. my warrior bring aoe cc and 3600 armor while ranger 3200 armor and single target dmg

And if you got yourself 3200 armor, you have wasted a LOT of dps. Seeing as anything over 2750 on a ranger is excessive.
As for pets, they are not THAT hard to use. What you need to keep in mind though, is to have the right pet out at the right time. Don’t walk around with a CC pet if you do not need to. The pet you have out at any given time should be disposable. The secondary pet should be there to provide utility and/or burst damage.

The problem is your measuring these classes by their zerg potential. It’s not that these classes are less useful in a zerg, it’s that zerging is the meta in WvW by design. That’s the real problem.

Rangers do great in small fights, like 1v1 and such..

Past that though they start becoming less useful, This is mainly pet design and utility. If you’re going to do the GvG fights a Ele or Engineer are far far better picks then ranger.

1v1 though, a BM Bunker Ranger is still one of the most dangerous classes in the game.

Prysin.8542:

McWolfy.5924:

Prysin.8542:

Markus.9084:

MiLkZz.4789:

We run 2-3 engis of our own for waterfields/blasting/CC or heavy nuke damage.

Could you explain more the advantages of the engi ?
I mean, El can drop water field and Warriors bring lots of CC and blasting…

For me, the good point for engi in this case is that they’re able to create water field and to blast it 3/4 times (or more). So it’s a bit more effective than with Ele : quicker and less blasting miss…

I don’t really know ranger, but I think they don’t have AoE pet skills…. or maybe just one (the skill bound to the pet). So their pets aren’t really effective in big fights. Imo, this profession is the most left aside class in WvW…

But I agree that part of the problem comes from the common ignorance of the mechanisms of those professions. When I ask a raid leader if I can join the group with my engi, he is like “meh…. don’t you have a guardian ?”. So now I don’t ask anymore, and pick him

Krytan Drakehound – 4-5 sec immob, 600 AOE. Adds cripple if traited
Fern Hound – 2000 direct heal + 4000 regen over 14 sec, 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Wolf – 1-2 sec fear 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Polar Bear – AOE Chill
Brown Bear – AOE Condition Cleanse
Black Bear – AOE Weakness
Murwellow – 240 diameter poison field, 7sec duration
Snow Wolf – AOE Chill
Red Moa – AOE Fury
White Moa – AOE Chill
Jungle Stalker – AOE Might
All birds – AOE Swiftness within attack-chain
All moa’s – AOE healing within melee range (3000 direct heal)

cool. but how do you want to use it in large fights? pets die instantly or just run up and back as you change targets. buffs are slow and short and the pet just stand while cast. condy removes remove roots and aoe destroy them. we cant give real boons to the party and our blast is slow. my warrior with 0 points on strenght trait line has as much dmg as my power ranger has. my warrior bring aoe cc and 3600 armor while ranger 3200 armor and single target dmg

And if you got yourself 3200 armor, you have wasted a LOT of dps. Seeing as anything over 2750 on a ranger is excessive.
As for pets, they are not THAT hard to use. What you need to keep in mind though, is to have the right pet out at the right time. Don’t walk around with a CC pet if you do not need to. The pet you have out at any given time should be disposable. The secondary pet should be there to provide utility and/or burst damage.

you are a funny guy. maybe u use a longbow build what damage only one target from far from the trouble. positioning, staying alive is time, time is damage. you lose damage. high armor builds can surf on the zerg, hit 3 targets. btw longbow have a very little dps and easy to dodge.

Prysin.8542:

Take rangers. They are hated through and through by pretty much every player around. Why? Because once upon a time, they all tried to play it at some point, they couldn’t get the hang of it (it is NOT supposed to be an archer, if you try play as one, you die) due to the treacherous design. Most players fall into this design pitfall, making rangers seem weak and useless.

This comment wins the interwebz for today!

Prysin.8542:

Markus.9084:

MiLkZz.4789:

We run 2-3 engis of our own for waterfields/blasting/CC or heavy nuke damage.

Could you explain more the advantages of the engi ?
I mean, El can drop water field and Warriors bring lots of CC and blasting…

For me, the good point for engi in this case is that they’re able to create water field and to blast it 3/4 times (or more). So it’s a bit more effective than with Ele : quicker and less blasting miss…

I don’t really know ranger, but I think they don’t have AoE pet skills…. or maybe just one (the skill bound to the pet). So their pets aren’t really effective in big fights. Imo, this profession is the most left aside class in WvW…

But I agree that part of the problem comes from the common ignorance of the mechanisms of those professions. When I ask a raid leader if I can join the group with my engi, he is like “meh…. don’t you have a guardian ?”. So now I don’t ask anymore, and pick him

Krytan Drakehound – 4-5 sec immob, 600 AOE. Adds cripple if traited
Fern Hound – 2000 direct heal + 4000 regen over 14 sec, 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Wolf – 1-2 sec fear 600 AOE, adds cripple if traited
Polar Bear – AOE Chill
Brown Bear – AOE Condition Cleanse
Black Bear – AOE Weakness
Murwellow – 240 diameter poison field, 7sec duration
Snow Wolf – AOE Chill
Red Moa – AOE Fury
White Moa – AOE Chill
Jungle Stalker – AOE Might
All birds – AOE Swiftness within attack-chain
All moa’s – AOE healing within melee range (3000 direct heal)

problem with most of those skills quoted are that unless the target stands still for 1-2 seconds, they will miss.

About the only one that is useful is fern hound, but only if you have it on passive and keep recalling it so that there is a chance in hell that you are standing near enough it when it casts to get the benefit.

In any fluid situation, most of the pet skills listed above fail as they take too long to cast and rely on the pet still being alive and in the right place by the time the cast is finished- and all of them can be replaced by another class that can cast whilst moving and/or faster while having more chance of surviving.

Rangers can be good for sniping squishies from the sides of a fight but going full melee on a ranger tends to get you dead in zerg fights where there are classes that can do it way better than you.

Engineers can be excellent in zerg fights with several viable builds and aoe at range or close in, and can be build to survive very well.

Prysin.8542:

Take rangers. They are hated through and through by pretty much every player around. Why? Because once upon a time, they all tried to play it at some point, they couldn’t get the hang of it (it is NOT supposed to be an archer, if you try play as one, you die) due to the treacherous design. Most players fall into this design pitfall, making rangers seem weak and useless.

Now let’s look at the name of the class. It even has the word RANGE in its class name. Can you guess what is wrong with this? It is supposed to be THE ranged class. So it is not a design pitfall, the current state of ranger is a misconception. It should do the best damage with ranged physical weapons, full stop.

Halvorn.9831:

Prysin.8542:

Take rangers. They are hated through and through by pretty much every player around. Why? Because once upon a time, they all tried to play it at some point, they couldn’t get the hang of it (it is NOT supposed to be an archer, if you try play as one, you die) due to the treacherous design. Most players fall into this design pitfall, making rangers seem weak and useless.

Now let’s look at the name of the class. It even has the word RANGE in its class name. Can you guess what is wrong with this? It is supposed to be THE ranged class. So it is not a design pitfall, the current state of ranger is a misconception. It should do the best damage with ranged physical weapons, full stop.

Why should the ranger do more physical damage than a Warrior with a longbow, why should it do more damage than an Engineers rifle, that would be unbalanced.

The problem with the ranger, it’s a pet class. The ranger needs to be able to be played without a pet as it was able to do in GW1 and gain some benefits to balance it out by doing so. The pet is a useless unnecessary class feature outside of open world PvE and its been pointed out so many times but nothing has been done about it. I have all classes at level 80 except a ranger and won’t be leveling one until this is sorted.

Ajax.4970:

Halvorn.9831:

Prysin.8542:

Take rangers. They are hated through and through by pretty much every player around. Why? Because once upon a time, they all tried to play it at some point, they couldn’t get the hang of it (it is NOT supposed to be an archer, if you try play as one, you die) due to the treacherous design. Most players fall into this design pitfall, making rangers seem weak and useless.

Now let’s look at the name of the class. It even has the word RANGE in its class name. Can you guess what is wrong with this? It is supposed to be THE ranged class. So it is not a design pitfall, the current state of ranger is a misconception. It should do the best damage with ranged physical weapons, full stop.

Why should the ranger do more physical damage than a Warrior with a longbow, why should it do more damage than an Engineers rifle, that would be unbalanced.

The pet AI problems set aside, IMO a ranged class should focus on immobilize (roots and snares) and ranged damage. The ranger is already weaker in close combat than warriors and engies have a lot more AoE-damage. Why shouldn’t rangers be among the top classes in ranged combat? I cannot see how that would be unbalanced. If you succeed in countering the immobilize, the ranger would be in big troubles.

As a backline fighter when running with my ranger and the zerg. I plan my LB barrage just as the 2 forces are coming together. I have over 55% crit chan and 60% crit damage. Add to that AoE (superior sigil of fire) and I can potential strike 35 players per volley of which there are 8 (if the stars align while Jupiter is in retrograde) but I am definitely hitting 40 between direct hits or splash damage from the AoE. That means I have 40 limping, burnt and damaged opponents for those tough guardians and warriors to pummel. During the same time I’ve called my spider to fight by my side and it launches poison into the zerg, slowing healing and causing more damage, oblivious of armor. He gets killed? Out comes the snow leopard for mauling and rending strikes since we’re up close and personal at this point.

When things get tight I swap to greatsword and entangle, quickening zephyr followed by hilt butt (or whatever that stun is called). Then I turn tail and get back to bow range and kite using #3 on the greatsword, swap my weapons and then gain invisibility for 3 seconds (#3 on the LB) to collect my pet and pick a new target who I use the interrupt shot #4.

It works sometimes!

It has been explained 200 million times by now that a RANGER does not neccessarily mean you have anything to do with archery.

So for the 200 000 001th time;
A Ranger is a person, male or female, that ranges the wild. Think Aragorn from LotR. That is a Ranger. A man living in the wild, prominent with the bow, but equally skilled with a sword

Halvorn.9831:

Ajax.4970:

Halvorn.9831:

Prysin.8542:

Take rangers. They are hated through and through by pretty much every player around. Why? Because once upon a time, they all tried to play it at some point, they couldn’t get the hang of it (it is NOT supposed to be an archer, if you try play as one, you die) due to the treacherous design. Most players fall into this design pitfall, making rangers seem weak and useless.

Now let’s look at the name of the class. It even has the word RANGE in its class name. Can you guess what is wrong with this? It is supposed to be THE ranged class. So it is not a design pitfall, the current state of ranger is a misconception. It should do the best damage with ranged physical weapons, full stop.

Why should the ranger do more physical damage than a Warrior with a longbow, why should it do more damage than an Engineers rifle, that would be unbalanced.

The ranger is already weaker in close combat

Evade on auto attacks say otherwise. If you really believe Rangers are weak in melee I think you haven’t explored all the available options. In small scale melee combat Rangers can be extremely tough and I have fought with and against some pretty decent melee focused Rangers. The problem though is still having to micro manage the pet to make it effective.

it is not a lie, stating that playing a ranger is like playing two toons at once, and one of your toons (pet) is a underlevel with bad armor

Rangers aren’t good because they lack aoe support on good weaponsets.

Warhon – good but forces you into sword or axe (bad)
Barrage – good but roots you (very bad)
GS – good but lacks any of the buffs and such from warhorn.
Traps – forces 30 crit dmg and 300 precision, very bad for survivability.

Spirits hard cap at 5 people
Muddy terrain caps at 3 (5?)
Traps cap at 3 (5?)
Entangle caps at 5

A good start would be to make aoe of spirits 10 (15) people in wvw and pve. This way they provide a good bonus to groups.
Axe could use a dps boost.
Sword could have root removed.

traps are unlimited. They are capped at 5 on initial activation, however as it puleses, it has no cap/pulse.

The spirit cap should be raised to 15, at the very least. I agree with that.
Warhorn should have #4 changed with a AOE CC like AOE Fear or AOE Daze. Doesnt matter if there is a long CD, it needs it as the current WH4 is rubbish due to LOS requirement.
Sword is fine, if anything, reduce CD on #3 to 12 seconds, from 15.
GS – increase Swoop range to 1600 to match other gap closers
Entangle – remove AOE cap and or make it unblockable. Reduce bleed damage as a tradeoff.

Other then that, Rangers are perfectly ok. Pets are broken and won’t be fixed within this century, so i have stopped hoping/asking for a fix to the AI.

to another part of this topic, mentality.
As previously stated, and agreed upon, medium armor professions are masters of versatility (yes even thief can be versatile, if you bother to spec for it). Which brings us to another topic. Mentality.

Currently, people want max DPS coupled with max group support, coupled with max CC. This results in a mix of eles, guards and warriors. However, neither of these can do all these roles at once, flawlessly.
IF the warrior tries to do it, it ends up being a rather selfish profession with lots of regen, which would benefit noone but the warrior. If the guardian does it, nothing it does will be really great. And eles just doesnt have that much AOE CC to make up for trading off damage.

These professions, while brilliant in their own “role” suffers when trying to do something else at the same time. So, why not add medium armor professions.
Kit engies can easily heal massive numbers of people, and from what iv’e seen (i havent played an engi seriously yet so this is only a subjective observation) do lots of damage too.
Spirit-shout rangers can easily dump perma regeneration, swiftness and burn/ +10% damage on a smaller group. Add in the waterfield which cleanses conditions and a bear + fern hound and you get even more AOE heal/cleanse. You’d have to bring a few of these for it to cover a zerg, however even at this spec, the ranger can dish out 10% less DPS then a PVT warrior, while providing more then twice the group support.

So say you drop 4 warriors from the zerg. You lose some AOE CC, some DPS. In return you get more group support, more healing, more boons. And at most you only lose like 5-10% of total DPS within a zerg. Which is a very low price to pay if the entire zerg can live for one or two more push’es.

Prysin.8542:

traps are unlimited. They are capped at 5 on initial activation, however as it puleses, it has no cap/pulse.

The spirit cap should be raised to 15, at the very least. I agree with that.
Warhorn should have #4 changed with a AOE CC like AOE Fear or AOE Daze. Doesnt matter if there is a long CD, it needs it as the current WH4 is rubbish due to LOS requirement.
Sword is fine, if anything, reduce CD on #3 to 12 seconds, from 15.
GS – increase Swoop range to 1600 to match other gap closers
Entangle – remove AOE cap and or make it unblockable. Reduce bleed damage as a tradeoff.

Other then that, Rangers are perfectly ok. Pets are broken and won’t be fixed within this century, so i have stopped hoping/asking for a fix to the AI.

That’s not true and is easy to test. Just goto eotm and hit the golems. Most traps have a 5 player cap and they will always hit the same 5 players until one leaves the area.

I also COMPLETELY disagree with where you’re going with the whole ‘jack of all trades’ angle of the class. When a class provides nothing of value the first place people go is ‘well the class provides a little bit of everything’. This isn’t what people want or even true in the first place.

As I’ve said countless times before… this game is sufficiently large enough for people to separate player skill and class value. Players that have organized large guild roaming groups and played group oriented pvp games for a long time can spot what they want/need a class to provide and worry about finding someone to provide it later. No one wants anything the Ranger class provides regardless of how good a player is at doing it.

While it’s nice to pretend the MM in MMO stands for massively multiplayer, it doesn’t. It stands for min/max online… because you don’t want classes that provide a little bit of everything in a weak, pathetikittentle package. You want those who provide the best of the best even if they specialize to bring it.

There is no utility on the Ranger that you would ever swap one out for a Hammer Warrior in WvW. Especially when that hammer warrior can still provide insane CC when also tossing around regen banners or healing shouts and cleansing conditions everywhere.

I know you don’t agree and you want to come up with whacked out ranger area denial builds, or that amazing ranger fast-res build, etc etc… players are intelligent enough to know what the Ranger can provide at this point of the game and no one wants anything to do with it. It’s not because Rangers attract bad players (that’s hardly the case…) it’s because the Ranger class is bad.

Atherakhia.4086:

players are intelligent enough to know what the Ranger can provide at this point of the game and no one wants anything to do with it.

That cracked me up. Dude, most people, including some of the devs themselves doesnt know what the traits, utilities and pets do. This is a fact, proven and documented.
In general, i’d say 70% got not a clue what this profession does, except “its really really weak and useless”, some 15-20% know that it can do something, the rest, they know what it does, and either play as a ranger or play something else. Either way, it is a simple fact that most people got NO clue what this profession can offer.

Every time i go into WvW, people seem to be caught with their pants down when they realize that a ranger can run on the melee frontline and survive, that i can get better regen then a warrior, that i can AOE CC, that i can even kill stuff with a LB in CQB. People, in general, just know that rangers is “bad”. Not because they actually ARE bad, but because it is commonly accepted to ignore and/or look down upon rangers altogether.

Again, no one is buying what you’re selling because you’re out of touch with reality. I’d outline the points but it’s a waste of time furthering the conversation. Better to stop bumping this thread and let it die since you don’t seem to think Rangers are broken and we already know ANet doesn’t care one way or the other.

It’s a complete waste of time.

I feel like Prysin is just trolling at this point. No GvG or WvW guild wants anything to do with a ranger, and for very good reason. Almost a year ago my guild experimented with a power ranger frontline, and it was just terrible. The crappy regeneration a ranger can apply pales in comparison to 5+ warriors instantly aoe shout healing for 3x 2k each, which, when runed, will also aoe clear conditions, all on a relatively short cd. And this doesn’t even touch on the high health, high armor, high dps, short cd aoe stuns, cripples, knockbacks, and warbanner that warriors bring. It’s either sheer delusion or ignorance to think that the ranger has anything to offer in WvW. I’d even argue that rangers are outclassed as roamers, too, although they certainly fare better in that role than any other.

This certainly isn’t an issue of player perception; other classes, and especially warriors, simply have shinier toys than rangers. The class needs a major rework.

A lot of people are PvE rangers. PvE is easy mode. PvE rangers go to WvW = perception that rangers are bad.

A good ranger is very valuable in a smaller fights. In zergballs, they don’t have enough group utility to bring to the table.

I love roaming with great rangers. My guild’s ranger has saved my kitten many a time.

IMO the mediums should be the masters of speed. IE, they are the only ones who get speed boosts. ATM their is no upside to their low armor.

@Xev
And that instant shout heal from 5+ warriors pales in comparison to 5+ rangers waterfields which does 6k instant heal and 8k regeneration. Then there is Fern Hound with 2k instant heal + 4k regeneration.

Sure you can consider me trolling at this point. However, Ather just doesnt like rangers, and we doesn’t really get along on that viewpoint. A person like myself that sees opportunity where others see nothing, it is but natural that a through and through negative attitude such as Ather’s will rub me the wrong way.

I know perfectly what the ranger can do, i also do know what most other professions can do, except Engineer and Mesmer. Those are the only two professions i got no clue about how they work.