Guild Wars 2

real thieves don’t rely on permastealth or even lots of stealth.

I came across this D/P and P/D Thief the other night that constantly trolled a group of us through stealth.
There is a ways to counter them though, and the thief barely did much damage anyway.

Going up against Zerker or near close Zerker; Invisible, leaping and backstabby thieves, is another problem altogether. But you can also counter them once you recognize their patterns and adapt your Build. It’s not quite like those days when you had Thieves ganking you with Basilisk Venom+Ass Signet+Mug+Stealth+Backstab.

One thing also to note is that Shadow Arts has excellent synergy with Stealth. Alot of the traits among the Acrobatic line is pretty mediocre or useless past putting 15 for Feline Grace IMO.

Sigh….

Valentin.2073:

why not? i can solo camps using my ranger. i’m playing a zerker ranger because i have the guts to do so. you dont go play what everyone else plays and tell yourself you’re good. it just makes you another scrub.

Soloing a camp is no measure of skill in WvW, any class can do it with little effort if built correctly. As for playing what everyone else plays, keep reading.

Valentin.2073:

i’ve played my class in spvp/tpvp long enough to get it effective in wvw. seriously, i treat a thief as i treat an ele. just another loot bag i can take for free. the percentage of me winning against a thief 1v1 in wvw is like 90% wins. what i dont like about them is that when they are outnumbered they can easily disengage through spamming an insane number of stealths.

From what I can see of your build in the video, you have 30 in marksmanship, and likely 30 in skirmishing. With dual bows, you have no mobility and no real counter to a thief that gets up in your grill. You win because you engage at distance, probably sniping someone as he fights someone else, using the fact you have the highest 1500 range dps in the game.

Having watched your video, It’s actually laughable being called no skill from someone who plays like that. Bad/glassy thieves might die, but a well played thief will take you apart.

Valentin.2073:

you people should not treat rangers like they are really that bad. i once killed 2 thieves 1 mesmer with the help of a single ranger ally. you guys have been fighting a lot of bad rangers too much.

The reason that people say rangers are bad is because 90% of them run your build, and in WvW that basically makes them cannon fodder. They come fresh from PvE and PvP, expecting things to just stay at distance whilst you kill them. Unfortunately it’s you that’s playing what everyone else does, making yourself the proverbial scrub.

I don’t want to be harsh, but there’s really no other way of saying it.

Valentin.2073:

these p/d thieves that came here to spam their insubstantial arguments are completely delusional. lmao! they all think they are playing a spec that requires skills. i’m sure once their ability to spam stealth was nerfed they will all cry in a corner. it’s the only build that they can play. i don’t even think they have the guts or the brain to play an underpowered class like ranger and ele. and i’m also pretty sure most of these thieves dont even play spvp/tpvp. they dont have enough skills to play the class there.

so which is the op one, p/d or d/p? you keep changing

Frigid.6027:

Valentin.2073:

these p/d thieves that came here to spam their insubstantial arguments are completely delusional. lmao! they all think they are playing a spec that requires skills. i’m sure once their ability to spam stealth was nerfed they will all cry in a corner. it’s the only build that they can play. i don’t even think they have the guts or the brain to play an underpowered class like ranger and ele. and i’m also pretty sure most of these thieves dont even play spvp/tpvp. they dont have enough skills to play the class there.

so which is the op one, p/d or d/p? you keep changing

it was a typo.

Sanduskel.1850:

Jim Hunter.6821:

How is it being abused? Stealth is what the thief is built around. It is their best source of damage, damage mitigation, healing, condition removal, etc.

This whole thread would be like if thieves were complaining that rangers used pets. Instead of calling for nerfs to other classes why don’t you try to get yours buffed so it is viable for something other than roaming. Maybe ask to get the broken pet ai fixed, or at least give you better control over them. Hell GW1 gave you better pet control.

Anet used that term, abused. They referenced the ability to remain in stealth while remaining in combat. NO OTHER PVP GAME does stealth this way and EVERY OTHER GAME HAS HARD COUNTERS to stealth. These two choices, made just to say we are different, make stealth laughably opd in this game. Some of us thieves don’t rely on this perma crutch and do just fine, so your first point is inaccurate.

Anet used that term SPECIFICALLY about D/P thieves who could maintain stealth indefinitely just from weapon skills by using a single trait. That trait has been fixed. Gaining stealth whilst in combat was NEVER a problem, in fact they said they had no problem with thieves chaining utilities to maintain stealth. Please quote things correctly & in context, if you’re going to quote.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Sigh….

Valentin.2073:

why not? i can solo camps using my ranger. i’m playing a zerker ranger because i have the guts to do so. you dont go play what everyone else plays and tell yourself you’re good. it just makes you another scrub.

Soloing a camp is no measure of skill in WvW, any class can do it with little effort if built correctly. As for playing what everyone else plays, keep reading.

Valentin.2073:

i’ve played my class in spvp/tpvp long enough to get it effective in wvw. seriously, i treat a thief as i treat an ele. just another loot bag i can take for free. the percentage of me winning against a thief 1v1 in wvw is like 90% wins. what i dont like about them is that when they are outnumbered they can easily disengage through spamming an insane number of stealths.

From what I can see of your build in the video, you have 30 in marksmanship, and likely 30 in skirmishing. With dual bows, you have no mobility and no real counter to a thief that gets up in your grill. You win because you engage at distance, probably sniping someone as he fights someone else, using the fact you have the highest 1500 range dps in the game.

Having watched your video, It’s actually laughable being called no skill from someone who plays like that. Bad/glassy thieves might die, but a well played thief will take you apart.

Valentin.2073:

you people should not treat rangers like they are really that bad. i once killed 2 thieves 1 mesmer with the help of a single ranger ally. you guys have been fighting a lot of bad rangers too much.

The reason that people say rangers are bad is because 90% of them run your build, and in WvW that basically makes them cannon fodder. They come fresh from PvE and PvP, expecting things to just stay at distance whilst you kill them. Unfortunately it’s you that’s playing what everyone else does, making yourself the proverbial scrub.

I don’t want to be harsh, but there’s really no other way of saying it.

i didnt get offended because you are talking nonsense. btw, may i ask whats the percentage of good thieves in wvw? maybe 20% or less. i know some good thieves and they are all my tpvp buddies. these thieves are really good and they are really useful in ranked matches. i’m not sure if it’s the same thing for these rude wvw thieves on this post.

it’s your ability to spam stealth that makes you a braindead poor excuse of a class. mesmers dont even get to spam that much stealth and it needs timing to play that class well. while a thief can just do black powder+ hs, shadow step, backstab, black powder + hs again, rinse and repeat. pretty much braindead to me.

AR and Kaineng thieves must be really bad because i usually just stomp them to shame with my glass cannon ranger 1v1. i wonder how does it feel for a thief to get stomped by a zerker ranger in wvw. lol.

most of the people that i duel would usually come back to fight me again and get stomped again. i once beat an ele from AR 5x in a row and a thief from AR 3x in a row. lol. it’s really funny and everybody knows that a zerker ranger might be the most underpowered build/class in wvw.

and i dont think most people here even know how to play a ranger. signet of stone when traited makes a ranger invincible to raw damage and quickening zephyr can boost the shortbow’s auto-attack that can melt more than a half of a bunker type’s hp in just a couple of seconds. such skills have long cooldown but really effective in duelling. i’ve beaten engi’s, guardians, eles and thieves using this build at pvp duelling arenas and these people spend most of their time playing gw2 by dueling. if i wantted i could play a spirit ranger in wvw and beat such thieves in wvw with less effort but i dont like that. i want to fight fair and even.

self made pedestal too high to be reached. it’s even blinding. over 9000.

Karolis.4261:

Valentin.2073:

this thread is going strong. i appreciate all your responses, guys. let’s keep presenting all our ideas to fix this broken class.

to the friendly thieves: my intention is not to offend you but to help you balance your class. it’s a lot more fun to play a balanced class than an overpowered one.

Deleted your video allready ? Oh no you didnt, here it is —-———->

^ best post of the day.

Sanduskel.1850:

real thieves don’t rely on permastealth or even lots of stealth.

You catch my attention I am a thief myself but i use sword dagger/pistol (sometime on the pistol). That cheesy backstabing crap gets repetitive and old no effort at all… time for a change. Zerkers arent a problem when i interupt them out of Heartseeker into stealth…

recently i found this so ridiculous.

spam 1 1 1 – BP – HS – go in stealth and keep rotating this over over and over.
You basically have like 1 – 3 sec to hit back with blind on you.

Liza.2758:

recently i found this so ridiculous.

spam 1 1 1 – BP – HS – go in stealth and keep rotating this over over and over.
You basically have like 1 – 3 sec to hit back with blind on you.

i recently found this so ridicilous
necro: stand fk while your pets do the job
warrior: put banner down, stand afk, never die

should i continue?

Cynz.9437:

Liza.2758:

recently i found this so ridiculous.

spam 1 1 1 – BP – HS – go in stealth and keep rotating this over over and over.
You basically have like 1 – 3 sec to hit back with blind on you.

i recently found this so ridicilous
necro: stand fk while your pets do the job
warrior: put banner down, stand afk, never die

should i continue?

if you dont rely on stealth and play like Caed’s build that would be no problem bro.

Valentin.2073:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Sigh….

Valentin.2073:

why not? i can solo camps using my ranger. i’m playing a zerker ranger because i have the guts to do so. you dont go play what everyone else plays and tell yourself you’re good. it just makes you another scrub.

Soloing a camp is no measure of skill in WvW, any class can do it with little effort if built correctly. As for playing what everyone else plays, keep reading.

Valentin.2073:

i’ve played my class in spvp/tpvp long enough to get it effective in wvw. seriously, i treat a thief as i treat an ele. just another loot bag i can take for free. the percentage of me winning against a thief 1v1 in wvw is like 90% wins. what i dont like about them is that when they are outnumbered they can easily disengage through spamming an insane number of stealths.

From what I can see of your build in the video, you have 30 in marksmanship, and likely 30 in skirmishing. With dual bows, you have no mobility and no real counter to a thief that gets up in your grill. You win because you engage at distance, probably sniping someone as he fights someone else, using the fact you have the highest 1500 range dps in the game.

Having watched your video, It’s actually laughable being called no skill from someone who plays like that. Bad/glassy thieves might die, but a well played thief will take you apart.

Valentin.2073:

you people should not treat rangers like they are really that bad. i once killed 2 thieves 1 mesmer with the help of a single ranger ally. you guys have been fighting a lot of bad rangers too much.

The reason that people say rangers are bad is because 90% of them run your build, and in WvW that basically makes them cannon fodder. They come fresh from PvE and PvP, expecting things to just stay at distance whilst you kill them. Unfortunately it’s you that’s playing what everyone else does, making yourself the proverbial scrub.

I don’t want to be harsh, but there’s really no other way of saying it.

i didnt get offended because you are talking nonsense. btw, may i ask whats the percentage of good thieves in wvw? maybe 20% or less. i know some good thieves and they are all my tpvp buddies. these thieves are really good and they are really useful in ranked matches. i’m not sure if it’s the same thing for these rude wvw thieves on this post.

it’s your ability to spam stealth that makes you a braindead poor excuse of a class. mesmers dont even get to spam that much stealth and it needs timing to play that class well. while a thief can just do black powder+ hs, shadow step, backstab, black powder + hs again, rinse and repeat. pretty much braindead to me.

AR and Kaineng thieves must be really bad because i usually just stomp them to shame with my glass cannon ranger 1v1. i wonder how does it feel for a thief to get stomped by a zerker ranger in wvw. lol.

most of the people that i duel would usually come back to fight me again and get stomped again. i once beat an ele from AR 5x in a row and a thief from AR 3x in a row. lol. it’s really funny and everybody knows that a zerker ranger might be the most underpowered build/class in wvw.

and i dont think most people here even know how to play a ranger. signet of stone when traited makes a ranger invincible to raw damage and quickening zephyr can boost the shortbow’s auto-attack that can melt more than a half of a bunker type’s hp in just a couple of seconds. such skills have long cooldown but really effective in duelling. i’ve beaten engi’s, guardians, eles and thieves using this build at pvp duelling arenas and these people spend most of their time playing gw2 by dueling. if i wantted i could play a spirit ranger in wvw and beat such thieves in wvw with less effort but i dont like that. i want to fight fair and even.

Here we go again… So I dont get it… do you want thieves to get nerfed or buffed? Cause from what you are saying it looks like thieves needs a massive buffs when most of the time they get killed by keyboard turning clicker.

Liza.2758:

Cynz.9437:

Liza.2758:

recently i found this so ridiculous.

spam 1 1 1 – BP – HS – go in stealth and keep rotating this over over and over.
You basically have like 1 – 3 sec to hit back with blind on you.

i recently found this so ridicilous
necro: stand fk while your pets do the job
warrior: put banner down, stand afk, never die

should i continue?

if you dont rely on stealth and play like Caed’s build that would be no problem bro.

how do you know i play Caed’s build? =.=

Jathra.9327:

So people would rather have 3-10+ thieves sitting in stealth (truly constant stealth like traditional MMO stealth) camping somewhere in WvW and all backstabbing at the same time out of nowhere than have the thief be able to stealth while in combat but be able to see the thief coming and prepare for them?

With traditional MMO stealth this is exactly what would happen. I remember in DAoC 20-50 stealthers all camping one choke point waiting for some sucker/group to come along and be their next gank target. At least here you can see the thief coming from a distance and prep for a fight.

Personally that would kitten me off a lot more than the current system.

PS: As a thief I would fee a lot safer in WvW with traditional MMO stealth, just sayin.

This!

But on topic:
If I can use Cloak and Dagger on a stealthed thief, then other should be able to hit them too… Seriously. Thief is the easiest profession to fight, because they’re very easy to read. You can guess where 90% of the thieves are. Some thieves have learnt to play smart and do the opposite, but these deserve to win – because they out played you.

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

Geiir.7603:

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

What counters a zerker thief abusing D/P?

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

What counters a zerker thief abusing D/P?

did you not read his post? Bring more toughness

Cool. Bigger punching bags.

Jim Hunter.6821:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

What counters a zerker thief abusing D/P?

did you not read his post? Bring more toughness

Honey, I have enough toughness to where I’m taking 4K damage from a backstab. It doesn’t change that I can pop my heal, and then be SoL because I can be downed faster than I attack the zerker thief. Because 4K out of 20K HP, he only needs to hit me 5 times to kill me, and since he’s abusing D/P, he can evade everytime he’s out of stealth, guaranteeing little to no damage done to him.

As much as you don’t want to admit it, D/P is an insanely overpowered weapon set due to the stealth spammability alone. Due to that stealth spam, zerkers have free reign because the risk to reward ratio is completely out of whack. Instead of high risk for high reward, it’s low risk for high reward. Black Powder needs to be changed, or the movement leap needs to be removed from Heartseeker. Since everybody uses Heartseeker, nobody wants that change. Thus the change must be to Black Powder to destroy the stealth spam.

Geiir.7603:

But on topic:
……… Some thieves have learnt to play smart and do the opposite, but these deserve to win – because they out played you.

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

That is the whole problem right there, Is he a good thief or a bad one. It’s just a guessing game, is he setting up for a attack or is he just trying to bait out my blocks/dodges. If i don’t dodge, I might get ganked. If I do dodge, I might be wasting as wasting a defensive skill for nothing and get ganked while it is on CD. I could lay down AoE but he might be running out of range to reset the fight or he can easily just dodge through it in which case I am wasting a percfectly good skill. Might as well just have to outcome of the fight determined by opening a BL chest.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

What counters a zerker thief abusing D/P?

Hit him twice and laugh at the downed thief

seriously you play a thief and should know this

Azukas.1426:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

What counters a zerker thief abusing D/P?

Hit him twice and laugh at the downed thief

seriously you play a thief and should know this

I play a TANK thief. I have no clue how fast a zerker thief folds, I’ve always had a 0/0/30/20/20 build on me.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

What counters a zerker thief abusing D/P?

The organ that takes up all that space between your ears.

Valentin.2073:

i didnt get offended because you are talking nonsense. btw, may i ask whats the percentage of good thieves in wvw? maybe 20% or less. i know some good thieves and they are all my tpvp buddies. these thieves are really good and they are really useful in ranked matches. i’m not sure if it’s the same thing for these rude wvw thieves on this post.

You do a remarkable job of not actually addressing any of the things I said in my previous post. Well done sir :/

You attempt to discredit my argument by asking how many thieves in WvW are good, and then state you know good thieves and that this validates your argument. Fine, let’s run with this train of thought:

“I know one good ranger, he does not play zerker. The majority of rangers that I meet play zerker, and I kill them easily because they are usually terrible players. Thus, you are a bad ranger because you play zerker.” Both this and your argument suffer from faulty logic.

The alternative, however, is that you are a PvP player who has no concept of how WvW builds function. PvP and WvW are not the same, and demand different things of the players and their builds.

Valentin.2073:

it’s your ability to spam stealth that makes you a braindead poor excuse of a class. mesmers dont even get to spam that much stealth and it needs timing to play that class well. while a thief can just do black powder+ hs, shadow step, backstab, black powder + hs again, rinse and repeat. pretty much braindead to me.

Again, using your logic: “It’s the ranger’s ability to hide behind an AI controlled bear whilst they only spam 1 on their bow that makes you a braindead poor excuse of a class.”

One build does not define a class. Stop with the sweeping generalisations already.

Valentin.2073:

AR and Kaineng thieves must be really bad because i usually just stomp them to shame with my glass cannon ranger 1v1. i wonder how does it feel for a thief to get stomped by a zerker ranger in wvw. lol.

Most thieves are terrible. As are most rangers. As are most warriors. As are most (insert profession here). What’s your point exactly?

Valentin.2073:

most of the people that i duel would usually come back to fight me again and get stomped again. i once beat an ele from AR 5x in a row and a thief from AR 3x in a row. lol. it’s really funny and everybody knows that a zerker ranger might be the most underpowered build/class in wvw.

This paragraph has no relevance to the argument you’re trying to make. I kill rangers like you on a daily basis, but that’s also irrelevant to a discussion about stealth.

Zerker ranger has it’s place in WvW. That place is in the back of a group, focusing squishy targets, laying down AoE cripple, and providing water fields for group healing. If you’re not in a group, you’re in a tower. If you’re in a 1v1 with a thief, a class designed to kill things like you, you’re out of position and deserve to be killed.

Valentin.2073:

and i dont think most people here even know how to play a ranger. signet of stone when traited makes a ranger invincible to raw damage and quickening zephyr can boost the shortbow’s auto-attack that can melt more than a half of a bunker type’s hp in just a couple of seconds. such skills have long cooldown but really effective in duelling. i’ve beaten engi’s, guardians, eles and thieves using this build at pvp duelling arenas and these people spend most of their time playing gw2 by dueling. if i wantted i could play a spirit ranger in wvw and beat such thieves in wvw with less effort but i dont like that. i want to fight fair and even.

Unfortunately for you, this simply does not help because I do not HAVE to engage you in WvW. I move faster than you because I build for mobility and you use 2 bows. There’s nothing stopping me from just walking off and leaving you be. Or from using my mobility to bait out your cooldowns, then killing you when you’re defenseless. Most importantly, however, this is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to a discussion of stealth in WvW.

Before you just dismiss me as talking nonsense again, let’s talk experience here. I have 1800 hours experience on thief, primarily playing WvW. You play zerker ranger in PvP, with little experience of WvW. If you disagree with me, fine, but if you want to convince me that I’m wrong then try bringing an actual argument next time.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

What counters a zerker thief abusing D/P?

My dagger/dagger thief (mix of Valkyrie and berserker) counter them just fine. I see where they land and CnD off that spot. If that fail I count 1,2 and turn around and use another CnD. One of those two hit 99% of the time I try that tactic. Also, my Guardian, Necro, Mesmer and Ele seems to do just fine against them.

As soon as you learn the pattern it’s easy to fight bad and medicore thieves. Stealth makes the thief hard to counter unless you know it’s tricks. Once you do you’ll only fear the good thieves.

OP: what kittenes me off is the fact that you say that you have no trouble at all killing thieves, yet you want to make us a free loot bag for you?! If we’re so easy to kill since you know the profession, doesn’t that mean that it’s a l2p issue for the others?

Edit: just wanted to add that when I’m on my thief (in stealth) and take a lot of pressure from my enemy who anticipated my move, I usually walk away. Just pressure a thief enough and he’ll walk away, or be stupid enough to engage and find himself dead within seconds.

How is this thread still going?

RyuDragnier.9476:

Azukas.1426:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

What counters a zerker thief abusing D/P?

Hit him twice and laugh at the downed thief

seriously you play a thief and should know this

I play a TANK thief. I have no clue how fast a zerker thief folds, I’ve always had a 0/0/30/20/20 build on me.

He folds 0.25 secs faster than you currently do

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Again, using your logic: “It’s the ranger’s ability to hide behind an AI controlled bear whilst they only spam 1 on their bow that makes you a braindead poor excuse of a class.”

One build does not define a class. Stop with the sweeping generalisations already.

Valentin.2073:

AR and Kaineng thieves must be really bad because i usually just stomp them to shame with my glass cannon ranger 1v1. i wonder how does it feel for a thief to get stomped by a zerker ranger in wvw. lol.

Most thieves are terrible. As are most rangers. As are most warriors. As are most (insert profession here). What’s your point exactly?

Valentin.2073:

most of the people that i duel would usually come back to fight me again and get stomped again. i once beat an ele from AR 5x in a row and a thief from AR 3x in a row. lol. it’s really funny and everybody knows that a zerker ranger might be the most underpowered build/class in wvw.

This paragraph has no relevance to the argument you’re trying to make. I kill rangers like you on a daily basis, but that’s also irrelevant to a discussion about stealth.

Zerker ranger has it’s place in WvW. That place is in the back of a group, focusing squishy targets, laying down AoE cripple, and providing water fields for group healing. If you’re not in a group, you’re in a tower. If you’re in a 1v1 with a thief, a class designed to kill things like you, you’re out of position and deserve to be killed.

Valentin.2073:

and i dont think most people here even know how to play a ranger. signet of stone when traited makes a ranger invincible to raw damage and quickening zephyr can boost the shortbow’s auto-attack that can melt more than a half of a bunker type’s hp in just a couple of seconds. such skills have long cooldown but really effective in duelling. i’ve beaten engi’s, guardians, eles and thieves using this build at pvp duelling arenas and these people spend most of their time playing gw2 by dueling. if i wantted i could play a spirit ranger in wvw and beat such thieves in wvw with less effort but i dont like that. i want to fight fair and even.

Unfortunately for you, this simply does not help because I do not HAVE to engage you in WvW. I move faster than you because I build for mobility and you use 2 bows. There’s nothing stopping me from just walking off and leaving you be. Or from using my mobility to bait out your cooldowns, then killing you when you’re defenseless. Most importantly, however, this is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to a discussion of stealth in WvW.

Before you just dismiss me as talking nonsense again, let’s talk experience here. I have 1800 hours experience on thief, primarily playing WvW. You play zerker ranger in PvP, with little experience of WvW. If you disagree with me, fine, but if you want to convince me that I’m wrong then try bringing an actual argument next time.

stop talking trash. seriously. i play both spirit ranger and zerker ranger in tpvp. do you even know that a zerker ranger is also underpowered in tpvp? it takes guts and skills to play that build effectively. you have no knowledge about tpvp at all. meta-builds in tpvp are hambow/condi warriors, spirit ranger, bunker guardian, condi/minion master necro and bunker engi. why don’t you try to play your class in tpvp and see how fast you’d get pawned there. the reason you play thief only in “wvw” is because you know it’s overpowered there. people in tpvp don’t even care about thieves. thieves are almost useless in tpvp. people who succeed as thieves in tpvp are really good and know how to play their class really well while people who play thief in wvw are braindead players who continue to abuse stealth and call themselves skillful. pfff…

me having played tpvp in a long time helped me a lot in killing thieves in wvw 1v1. seriously, you arent one of those professions that i would avoid facing 1v1. you cant nuke me with conditions and i can use knockback to avoid your heartseeker spams. i can also dps you to death in seconds before you can react. so dont go tell me l2p because i dont have any problem dealing with your class. what i’m asking here is a nerf to you stealth spamming ability because it is broken and should not exist in this game. get over yourself.

Carpboy.7145:

How is this thread still going?

How is stealth not fixed yet?!

Of course its going to go around in circles. Because everyone is always playing the blaim game. Its laughable that one of the arguments to counter stealth berserkers is bring more toughness. The same people will probably argue that reducing stealth for the thief will make him defenseless and killed in 2 hits. Yeah, probably. You know the solution to that? Bring more toughness.

And round in circles we go.

Nothing people argue will change the fact that the mechanics of stealth is flawed. The penalties for abusing is it too low and other professions have no counter. No, toughness is not enough. The thief only bring more damage. Stealth traps is kittened, you cant use those in the middle of bloody combat. The ranger got one skill for it… Which is worthless.

IMO the solution remain really simple: Make stealth a new type of boon that is always on a fixed duration (not affected by + duration) and has a after-attack secondary state fixed condition (ie reveal, not affected by +/- duration). You cannot apply the boon when having the condition. The boon can be removed forcibly and the condition can be cleansed.

Problem solved, stealth is now integrated into boon and condition mechanics instead of being its own “thing”. Boon removers can bring thieves/mesmers/zerg veilers out of stealth while condition appliers can have attacks that prevent thieves/mesmers/zerg veilers from going into stealth.

Think about it.

Step 1: Thief stealths
Step 2: Instead of running around spamming 1, AoE everything. EVERYTHING.
Step 3: Enjoy your dead thief.

Step 1: shout “L2P” at the top of your lungs
Step 2: shut your ears
Step 3: Heart seeker

L2P according to the thief:

You should guessing where the enemy is, unleash your six sense. Because a enemy thief is like an NPC, you can “learn” their moves, because enemy thief does always the same moves, because he is mental deficiency. Feel it bro, feel they move, close your eyes and feel the KI around and HIT HARD.

Is because that nobody play a D/P thief, because is easy to fight against. Too much pro guessers.

L2G, learn to guess.

urieldhynne.2743:

L2P according to the thief:

You should guessing where the enemy is, unleash your six sense. Because a enemy thief is like an NPC, you can “learn” their moves, because enemy thief does always the same moves, because he is mental deficiency. Feel it bro, feel they move, close your eyes and feel the KI around and HIT HARD.

Is because that nobody play a D/P thief, because is easy to fight against. Too much pro guessers.

L2G, learn to guess.

That is some good advice. I’m going to go watch Blood Sport with Van Damme. He was able to defend himself with his eyes closed. Maybe if I watch it a few more times I could gain the power needed !

Forzani.2584:

urieldhynne.2743:

L2P according to the thief:

You should guessing where the enemy is, unleash your six sense. Because a enemy thief is like an NPC, you can “learn” their moves, because enemy thief does always the same moves, because he is mental deficiency. Feel it bro, feel they move, close your eyes and feel the KI around and HIT HARD.

Is because that nobody play a D/P thief, because is easy to fight against. Too much pro guessers.

L2G, learn to guess.

That is some good advice. I’m going to go watch Blood Sport with Van Damme. He was able to defend himself with his eyes closed. Maybe if I watch it a few more times I could gain the power needed !

That would be great! i suggest you to play some single player games with your eyes closed to learn how to feel the enemy and guess their moves! Be one with your computer bro.

Valentin.2073:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Again, using your logic: “It’s the ranger’s ability to hide behind an AI controlled bear whilst they only spam 1 on their bow that makes you a braindead poor excuse of a class.”

One build does not define a class. Stop with the sweeping generalisations already.

Valentin.2073:

AR and Kaineng thieves must be really bad because i usually just stomp them to shame with my glass cannon ranger 1v1. i wonder how does it feel for a thief to get stomped by a zerker ranger in wvw. lol.

Most thieves are terrible. As are most rangers. As are most warriors. As are most (insert profession here). What’s your point exactly?

Valentin.2073:

most of the people that i duel would usually come back to fight me again and get stomped again. i once beat an ele from AR 5x in a row and a thief from AR 3x in a row. lol. it’s really funny and everybody knows that a zerker ranger might be the most underpowered build/class in wvw.

This paragraph has no relevance to the argument you’re trying to make. I kill rangers like you on a daily basis, but that’s also irrelevant to a discussion about stealth.

Zerker ranger has it’s place in WvW. That place is in the back of a group, focusing squishy targets, laying down AoE cripple, and providing water fields for group healing. If you’re not in a group, you’re in a tower. If you’re in a 1v1 with a thief, a class designed to kill things like you, you’re out of position and deserve to be killed.

Valentin.2073:

and i dont think most people here even know how to play a ranger. signet of stone when traited makes a ranger invincible to raw damage and quickening zephyr can boost the shortbow’s auto-attack that can melt more than a half of a bunker type’s hp in just a couple of seconds. such skills have long cooldown but really effective in duelling. i’ve beaten engi’s, guardians, eles and thieves using this build at pvp duelling arenas and these people spend most of their time playing gw2 by dueling. if i wantted i could play a spirit ranger in wvw and beat such thieves in wvw with less effort but i dont like that. i want to fight fair and even.

Unfortunately for you, this simply does not help because I do not HAVE to engage you in WvW. I move faster than you because I build for mobility and you use 2 bows. There’s nothing stopping me from just walking off and leaving you be. Or from using my mobility to bait out your cooldowns, then killing you when you’re defenseless. Most importantly, however, this is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to a discussion of stealth in WvW.

Before you just dismiss me as talking nonsense again, let’s talk experience here. I have 1800 hours experience on thief, primarily playing WvW. You play zerker ranger in PvP, with little experience of WvW. If you disagree with me, fine, but if you want to convince me that I’m wrong then try bringing an actual argument next time.

stop talking trash. seriously. i play both spirit ranger and zerker ranger in tpvp. do you even know that a zerker ranger is also underpowered in tpvp? it takes guts and skills to play that build effectively. you have no knowledge about tpvp at all. meta-builds in tpvp are hambow/condi warriors, spirit ranger, bunker guardian, condi/minion master necro and bunker engi. why don’t you try to play your class in tpvp and see how fast you’d get pawned there. the reason you play thief only in “wvw” is because you know it’s overpowered there. people in tpvp don’t even care about thieves. thieves are almost useless in tpvp. people who succeed as thieves in tpvp are really good and know how to play their class really well while people who play thief in wvw are braindead players who continue to abuse stealth and call themselves skillful. pfff…

me having played tpvp in a long time helped me a lot in killing thieves in wvw 1v1. seriously, you arent one of those professions that i would avoid facing 1v1. you cant nuke me with conditions and i can use knockback to avoid your heartseeker spams. i can also dps you to death in seconds before you can react. so dont go tell me l2p because i dont have any problem dealing with your class. what i’m asking here is a nerf to you stealth spamming ability because it is broken and should not exist in this game. get over yourself.

Guts and skills. You keyboard turning and skill clicking removes any “skill” there might be.

It’s not guessing. You know they are going to HS through their BP, and you know they are going to try to position themselves for a backstab. Most thieves are built so a strong breeze will put them in the down state so just AoE or cleave where you know they will be.

It’s the ‘trolliest’ troll thread I have ever seen.
‘I know good thieves in tpvp, blah, blah, they’re my buddies.’ -> ‘Thief is worthless in tpvp and only some can play it well.’
I assume that only your buddies can play a thief well in tpvp?
‘Stealth OP!’ -> ‘I beat thieves in 1v1 ones all the time. 90% of thieves are baddies that I always kill’
So is it OP or UP?
Make up your mind since across 9 pages you contradcit yourself over and over again. Also, I am shocked that noone from NA has offered to duel you in PvP/WvW yet.

And to add to what Geiir said. D/P thieves are easily countered in WvW. Unlike on DD they give huge indicator to their stealth skills. Also, you can just run away from them (not flee from the fight itself) – they cannot follow you and maintain stealth because the amount of ini does’t allow it. Pro tip for the end: grow some balls and take a backstab to the back from time to time. With mediocre toughness it will be about 6k and you can cnd of them afterwards.

EDIT: Before someone says that dp thief can disengage at will. All the classes but necro are capable of doing it.

Jim Hunter.6821:

It’s not guessing. You know they are going to HS through their BP, and you know they are going to try to position themselves for a backstab. Most thieves are built so a strong breeze will put them in the down state so just AoE or cleave where you know they will be.

Still guessing, because a smart thief is not going to do the obvious thing. Of course there is a lot of bad thief who play like NPC, but, when they don’t do that? Stealth is a far strong mechanic when you use it well, not like a pro, just well. The ability to spam it without risk (D/P thief) is just broken when is used correctly, just correctly. No real counter for that mechanic and you can spam it.

Anyways, in the case the thief come to backstab you every time, and you build some defense (because you dont have stealth) they have more damage than you because stealth let them to build full glasscanon without risk. In the repeat process (BS, stealth, recharge ini, BS, stealth, recharge ini) you will lose in every exchange. And that is what happen , if the thief lose in a exchange they just go to stealth more time for recovery, you cant do that, and they do that from far (no like D/D thief who need to hit to go stealth) and try again and again over an over. That thing of “if the thief lose he run away” don’t exist, the thief is going to keep fighting until you get bored and let them kill you or you has a lot more movement than him, or he commit suicide because a stupid move and die.

D/P spameble stealth without risk, without chance to counter it or prevent like D/D has, is just broken, annoying and frustrating to play against.

scabrous.7835:

EDIT: Before someone says that dp thief can disengage at will. All the classes but necro are capable of doing it.

You know what is the difference? Another classes disengage and BOTH disengage. The thief don’t “disengage”, he remain in combat and you too, stealth regenerate a lot of initiative, and they have a lot of health regeneration and condition removal from it. Stealth let them to reset HIM, not you. You have a lot of thing on CD, low health, and you don’t see him, or just see him for less than 1sec. And they have the first strike again (and that first strike HIT A LOT) over and over.

You only can guess where they are or when they gonna strike, blowing your aoe damage cooldown in guessing positions. They haven’t CDs.

Is ok if the thief need to land a strike to go in stealth like D/D need to do. But when you are free to spam it without risk is kitteng powerful.

I’ll help people out here

Stand in the BP to interrupt multiple HS through it.
Use pulls pushes and CC to stop the HS
Identify the 3 utility skills they bring

It’s not hard to do this. Once you realize the skills they using along with weapon sets theniit’s literally just a few attacks (regardless of their toughness) to down them

frans.8092:

KlausKNT.9302:

No other MMOS ofer player to spam stealth in fight.

Incorrect.

frans.8092:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

Thief is the counter to zerkers, so bring more toughness and vitality and watch that 7k backstab transform to a 3-4k…

What counters a zerker thief abusing D/P?

The organ that takes up all that space between your ears.

I see frans you still there but you don’t answer the simple question.
With mmos allow players to SPAM stealth in fight like in gw2?.
I hope you have “The organ that takes up all that space between your ears” that allow you to answer this SIMPLE question ?
A lot of time has passed, and still w8ting for answer frans.
Will be here any answer ?

The fact about gw2 is that this game have some serious balance issues. Thief ability to SPAM stealth (especially in wvsw) is one of them, and need be fixed asap.
I think dev know about this issue too, but until now they have other priorities to work in gw2 (events, lw, pve).
But now the time to fix class balance have come and anet will finally do it!!

this thread will eventually serve its purpose. these d/p thieves say the same crap over and over. i just hope anet fixes it asap because a lot of players are getting annoyed on how braindead, low risk high reward the dagger/pistol set is.

sierras.6297:

Okay, a 12 k Backstab would be on a full zerker ele/ranger with absolutely no sustain and the thief has 5-10 stacks of might.

I took 16k damage last night from ONE backstab, that alone left me with just over 2k health…This on a build with more than 1500toughness and just over 18k health.

I can assure you, i was in no way a Zerker build.

Backstab needs to have its damage reduced by A LOT considering that it is a FREE attack has what a 4-8second cool down depending on what skill you use to get back into stealth Maybe have it so that it requires say 50% of your total initiative to use. So if you don’t have enough you can’t use it. To be able to do 16k+ damage in ONE hit from stealth from which you might not even know they are there – how do you counter such a thing?

What i don’t get, every other MMO has a PENALTY for being in stealth one that normally reduces movement speed, why is it in this game being in Stealth and taking a trait INCREASES your movement speed….

Azukas.1426:

I’ll help people out here

Stand in the BP to interrupt multiple HS through it.
Use pulls pushes and CC to stop the HS
Identify the 3 utility skills they bring

It’s not hard to do this. Once you realize the skills they using along with weapon sets theniit’s literally just a few attacks (regardless of their toughness) to down them

Give me spameable (without CD) CC and i have no problem to fight against spameable-noCD stealth.

if you havent noticed it’s the same people who defend d/p. a lot of people have already spoken their mind againt stealth spamming and there were even some actual thieves against it.

Keyboard turning is too stronk for me to handle.
Please nerf.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

What i don’t get, every other MMO has a PENALTY for being in stealth one that normally reduces movement speed, why is it in this game being in Stealth and taking a trait INCREASES your movement speed….

Not only movement speed, health and initiative regeneration, condition removal, is a free-reset for you. And you can spam it, and you are invisible, not in stealth, you are invisible.

In stealth you shouldn’t can heal, be healed or gain more initiative.

Halo.8976:

Keyboard turning is too stronk for me to handle.
Please nerf.

is that all you can say? why dont you duel me and see how fast i can make you wipe the floor off? i promise you its not gonna take more than a couple of minutes. what class do you want me to use ranger, mesmer, or necro? i’d be waiting for your pm ig.

urieldhynne.2743:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

What i don’t get, every other MMO has a PENALTY for being in stealth one that normally reduces movement speed, why is it in this game being in Stealth and taking a trait INCREASES your movement speed….

Not only movement speed, health and initiative regeneration, condition removal, is a free-reset for you. And you can spam it, and you are invisible, not in stealth, you are invisible.

In stealth you shouldn’t can heal, be healed or gain more initiative.

Cant forget Mesmers getting boons every second in stealth too.

I can’t get over the fact of how stupid this entire thread is. Valentine say that stealth is OP, yet he claims to kill every thief he meet – with a build he claim to be under powered. Don’t you see the flaw with this statement?!

I have no trouble killing thieves. If I die to one I know why I died and I accept what I did wrong and I try to learn from that mistake. Stealth is a mechanic that’s powerful and confusing to new players, while veteran players find them easy to deal with.

The reason thieves go berserker is because it doesn’t really matter if we stack toughness/vitality, we die to a sneeze anyways. To me it looks like people want us to be warriors, but without immunity skills, insane armor, high health pool, crazy team utilities/buffs, and the ability to face tank pretty much everything. They built many of our weapon sets, skills and traits around stealth – just accept it, l2p and get over it.