Guild Wars 2

How many years, and how many threads, does it take for the team to work on poorly thought out systems and balancing for player against player modes?

Since launch, players have continuously brought up issues and solutions for stealth and cc mechanics and counter mechanics (and a range of other issues)… to help make a healthier competitive mode… so why are factual issues ignored?

Other games work on their skills and systems with more regularity, so what’s the issue here?

Played city of heroes for ages and, with the exception of a couple issues, the team really sat down to provide a great system of “checks and balances” to their game. But here, with a larger team and more resources, nothing happens…. I can go to the CU boards or watch videos where the devs talk about creating quality designs for their game, but not here… I can turn to a number of games where major class overhauls have occurred to improve the quality of their game, but here, nothing except silence and out of touch patch notes.

I could pull a well written thread…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/PvX-Balance-Iteration-Wrongdoing/first

from 3 years ago that talks about development and balance issues… and the exact same problems are still here… Why?

I’m not trying to be rude, but why are y’all ignoring and under-developing the most important aspects (profession, skills and combat systems) of this game?

Are you working on some mystery game and pouring most resources to it?

Y’all just don’t care enough to reevaluate the most vital and central area of the game?

I don’t understand what the failure is here to provide even an average amount of development to these areas. For a AAA game company y’all really know how to let players down.

… Y’all really need to blow up professions and combat systems, take the good stuff out and rebuild from it… With the level of talent and amount of staff at anet, I don’t see why y’all can’t make this happen if y’all really gave a kitten about the game and game modes y’all created.

GW2 stealth and counter stealth mechanics…

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

Let’s compare the above to a team who put a lot of thought into their classes and combat….

Stealth mechanics…

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment#Invisibility

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker

“Hiding

Despite the rather misleading name, the Hidden status only means that the Stalker is poised to deliver stronger or more reliable critical hits. Hidden mode and Stealth aren’t directly linked, although they often occur together. A Stalker can be Hidden even if an enemy has enough Perception to see him. Stalkers have two ways to become Hidden. The Hide power continually grants Hidden status, though that status suppresses for eight seconds each time the Stalker uses an attack power (except for missed Assassin’s Strikes), suffers damage from an enemy (falling doesn’t count), or clicks a mission object. Using the Placate power on any target also puts the Stalker in Hidden mode, no matter who he attacks, for a fixed period of ten seconds."

CC systems…

CC and Counter CC skills… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Category:Status_Effects

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Status_Effect

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Player_vs_Player

“Status Effect Protection

In PvP zones, effects that normally provide Protection against status effects provide Resistance instead. It is not possible to prevent effects like Holds and Immobilization in PvP – only shorten them. (Knockdown, Knockback, and Knockup are not included in this. Protection against these can still be found.)

Status Effect & Knockback Suppression

Every time a character recovers from a Hold, Immobilize, Disorient, Sleep, or Fear status, that character becomes immune to all five of those effects from other players for 15 seconds. Every time a character suffers a Knockdown, Knockback, or Knockup effect, that character becomes immune to all three of those effects from other players for 10 seconds. These two timers are independent. It should be noted that Confuse effects, while technically mezzes, are on a separate 15-second timer than the other mezzes listed above."

“Controls

The strengths and durations of status effect-causing powers follow different, simpler, and more consistent rules in PvP.

Most status effects have a consistent base duration of 4 seconds for Controller and Dominator powers, and 2 seconds for all other ATs and for pool and temporary powers. These durations do not increase with level. The relevant status effects are Disorient, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Fear, and Confuse.

Untouchable and Intangible (i.e. “cage”) powers have a fixed duration of 8 seconds for Controller and Dominator powers and 4 seconds for all other ATs. These durations do not increase with level.

The Dominator’s Domination mode gives no bonus duration to status effects. Instead, it causes the them to apply for their full duration regardless of resistances.

Taunting powers have a consistent base duration of 6 seconds for Tanker sets, and 4 seconds for Scrapper, Brute, and pool sets. These durations do not increase with level.
Placating powers have a consistent base duration of 10 seconds for Stalker sets and 4 seconds for Soldiers of Arachnos sets. These durations do not increase with level."

Related to stealth and cc systems…

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations

“Accuracy Inspirations

Inspiration Accuracy Lvl 1 Insight: +7.5% ToHit, +Perception
Increases your to-hit by 7.5% and increases your perception by 125 ft for 60 seconds.

Inspiration Accuracy Lvl 2 Keen Insight: +18.75% ToHit, +Perception
Increases your to-hit by 18.75% and increases your perception by 166 ft for 60 seconds.

Inspiration Accuracy Lvl 3 Uncanny Insight: +37.5% ToHit, +Perception
Increases your to-hit by 37.5% and increases your perception by 250 ft for 60 seconds.

Inspiration Accuracy Lvl 4 Sight Beyond Sight:+75% ToHit, +Perception
Increases your to-hit by 75% and increases your Perception by 250 ft for 60 seconds."

“Resist Effects Inspirations

Inspiration Lvl 1 Break Free: Resist Effects
Frees you from many sleep, hold, immobilization, disorient, fear, confuse, and knockback effects and boosts your resistance to repel, taunt, and placate effects for 30 seconds. This inspiration can be used even while under such effects.

-10 Magnitude protection against Hold, Sleep, Stun, and Immobilize; -5 Magnitude protection against Knockback, Knockup, Fear, and Confuse; 50% resistance to Taunt and Placate; 25% resistance to Repel

Inspiration Lvl 2 Emerge: Resist Effects
Frees you from many sleep, hold, immobilization, disorient, fear, confuse, and knockback effects and boosts your resistance to repel, taunt, and placate effects for 60 seconds. This inspiration can be used even while under such effects.

-15 Magnitude protection against Hold, Sleep, Stun, Immobilize, Fear, and Confuse; -7.5 Magnitude protection against Knockback and Knockup; 50% resistance to Taunt, Placate, and Repel

Inspiration Lvl 3 Escape: Resist Effects
Frees you from many sleep, hold, immobilization, disorient, fear, confuse, and knockback effects and boosts your resistance to repel, taunt, and placate effects for 90 seconds. This inspiration can be used even while under such effects.

-20 Magnitude protection against Hold, Sleep, Stun, Immobilize, Fear, and Confuse; -10 Magnitude protection against Knockback and Knockup; 100% resistance to Repel; 50% resistance to Taunt and Placate

Inspiration Lvl 4 Liberate: Resist Effects
Frees you from many sleep, hold, immobilization, disorient, fear, confuse, and knockback effects and boosts your resistance to repel, taunt and placate effects for 90 seconds. This Inspiration can be used even while under such effects.

-40 Magnitude protection against Hold, Sleep, Stun, Immobilize, Fear, and Confuse; -20 Magnitude protection against Knockback and Knockup; 100% resistance to Repel; 75% resistance to Taunt and Placate"

All players in city of heroes had access to stealth skills.

All players had access to counter stealth skills.

All players could manage cc effects through special pvp rules, personal skills, outside player buffs and inspirations…

All players had access to movement skills, not leaving any player sol on the battle field because they were simply out maneuvered.

All players had access to self-healing skills and tools…

…Almost every power set, for each class, could hold their own in pvp because the devs cared to create a more balanced professions and combat system.

…Teamwork was far superior by skill design too…

I could go on and on with things that made the city of heroes class and combat system better balanced, more fair and sensible, but the main point is that the team who created that game actually put a ton of thought into their classes, skill and combat designs… They didn’t intentionally leave major design issues to fester like we have here.

…Sorry for the long posts, but y’all devs have let a potentially great class and combat system go to crap because nothing substantial has been done. GW2 requires more than just a couple of value changes to skills and tool tip corrections to make a more balanced and enjoyable game.. but if y’all are content with the overall designs or aren’t willing to properly invest in making substantial improvements, then at least communicate that to players so we know what to expect and so we can stop wasting time posting.

Stealth design is broken, always has been broken, always will be broken in this game.

Some other games put cc under diminishing returns so that you’re not continually taken out of control of your character while you go from 100 to 0. Anet only like to apply diminishing returns to loot, think you can figure out where their priorities are with the game.

Other version of stealth mechanics…

http://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

“Stealth is made of several mechanics that the allow players to hide or sneak up on opposing players. All classes can make use of some of these mechanics, but the Archers, Scouts and Stealthers specialize in using them.”

Concept and philosophy of stealth…

“Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.

Goal #2 – Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.

Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.

Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.

Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.

Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible."

Stealth mechanics…

“Camouflage

Camouflage is useable by all classes.

Archer classes get “magically enhanced” camouflage. Camouflage effectiveness is determined by the garb and environment. Camouflage works by drastically increasing your concealment stat while in use.

Concealment

Concealment prevents you from being detected and is different the Stealth. Whether or not you will be seen is based off an unknown formula that pits the users concealment value against the enemies detection rating.

Scouts enjoy a large boost to their concealment stat while in their scouting form with no duration to limit the effect, although the effectiveness may be diminished based on time of day.

Veil Walking

Veilwalking is distinct from camouflage and concealment. Veilwalking is the Camelot Unchained term that best translates to traditional MMO “stealth”, and is the primary mechanism for the Stealther trio. It involves the practitioner going into the Veil, and it is their presence in the Veil which provides these classes their stealth status. All in attempt to gain surprise, and/or build up resources in order to gain an advantage versus an opponent.

Veilwalking duration is not permanent, but instead lasts a “long” time (further specifics have not been given as of yet).

Stealthers will be able to see other stealth classes while within the veil (the distances are unknown).

Stealthers will be able to see other player characters outside the veil. (the distances are unknown).

Stealthers will be immune to abilities from characters outside the veil unless they are specifically intended to target those within.

The longer the stealth classes remain within the Veil, the more damage they take when they emerge from the Veil. Estimates of damage are unknown. This is considered to be a balancing factor that allows CSE to give stealthers “strong openers”, and not force the stealthers to stand still to recover as was originally planned while unstealthing. This mechanic may or may not prove necessary and may not be kept (needs citation).

The more Stealthers within an area, the more Veil disturbance is created. Veil disturbance increases the damage taken while within the veil, and makes those inside easier to detect by creating more “noise” vs. the Detection statfromn their opponents. This noise is partially countered when many players help create background noise. This background noise will act as a mask to reduce the ease at which Stealthers are detected around larger fights. The results should be:

Stealther vs a single target : the Stealthers has normal stealth effectiveness.

Multiple Stealthers vs fewer targets: the Stealthers have reduced stealth effectiveness.

Multiple Stealthers in an area where multiple people are fighting: the Stealthers has normal stealth effectiveness."

But, in my opinion, stealth mechanics are fine and nicely balanced now… So… /thread?

This is a l2p issue. If you don’t like adapting, go play another game.

Besides, even if stealth is nerfed/redone/whatever, you and all the other newer players are just going to complain about the unlimited dodges from acro thieves or the superior mobility from shortbow.

The Game Slayer.7632:

But, in my opinion, stealth mechanics are fine and nicely balanced now… So… /thread?

This is a l2p issue. If you don’t like adapting, go play another game.

Besides, even if stealth is nerfed/redone/whatever, you and all the other newer players are just going to complain about the unlimited dodges from acro thieves or the superior mobility from shortbow.

I’m going to quote myself as a response…

Swagger.1459:

I’ve been checking out some comments in this thread and will have some replies soon, but I just wanted to make some players aware that the reason wvw and spvp have been such a mess since launch is because… (and I will paraphrase a developer here)… “balancing for all the game modes will add a lot of overhead to balance patches”…

So, all the funky and silly stuff we see happening in competitive games modes is not because that’s what the devs intended, it’s because the top is not giving the devs a green light to properly work on professions and combat for pvp modes…

Some of y’all might just keep defending away after reading this, but realize you are defending game designs that have been intentionally ignored and neglected.

Edit- and to be fair… only after 4 years have the devs started to make separate skill balances for spvp only, not wvw.

This was posted by Gaile 1 month ago… only 1 month ago. GW2 was released August 28th 2012 btw…

Gaile Gray.6029:

A message from the PvP Team:

Hey all,

We have a number of skill splits (and some global changes) that will be accompanying the launch of Season 5 next week. Read on to see what’s in store for December 13.

Over the past few releases the PvP team has been working closely with the Skills team to implement some PvP-only skill splits. Moving forward the PvP team will have more opportunity to make these skill splits as we see fit. It’s important to understand that skill splits should not change the core functionality of a skill. Players should be able to use a skill in PvE and have it do relatively the same thing in PvP, though it may be more or less effective depending on the game mode. This means that when we are looking to split out a skill, the changes are limited to the following areas:

• Recharge
• Damage multipliers
• Healing multipliers
• Number of conditions/boons applied
• Duration of conditions/boons applied
• Skill cost (energy and initiative)

A lot can be done with these knobs, but there still will be cases where we identify a problem skill or trait that we feel cannot be addressed without a functional change. In these cases, we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change.

Now on to the changes! Note that all changes listed are global changes except for those that are designated as “PvP only.”

Spvp only, but not a care about wvw…

From an AMA

Question from DarkNecrid…

“Can you provide a succinct statement on why ArenaNet is against splitting skills between PvE/W3/PvP because I’m glad you guys are not doing it due to what happened in GW1 when ArenaNet did this (PvE become more wildly imbalanced with massive power creep on skills that became completely different from their former counterpart like Signet of Spirits, PvP was balanced about the same prior to it, class mechanics changed between both formats, added another huge barrier of entry into PvP which is a format that already has a huge barrier of entry which killed off the PvP population pretty fast etc) but a lot of people still seem to want it even though the Guild Wars 2 ArenaNet has spent time these past few years actually reverting the splits you guys did do around launch so you seem to be against it as well with little statement as to why?”

Answer from Isaiah Cartwright…

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nxtz4?context=10000

“We are not fully against it but it adds a lot of overhead to every balance and design decisions as you move forward. While it does give you another tool box it does lead to optimizing skills heavily for each game type which does make power creep. like Mike Z always says and Colin gets blamed for its on the table and it’s something we may use in the future but we do often find most issues are global issues that are just highlighted in one area.”

“Overhead” means money and time… While it’s nice to finally see spvp get some effort put in, that still leaves wvw a complete mess.

I do think that the stealth, CC, and boon/condi system in this game need to be looked at by ANet and redesigned. Stealth is mostly ok imo, just needs a few small tweaks like applying damaging conditions should break stealth the same as applying power damage does.

I appreciate that you link resources to what other games do with these mechanics, but I think we shouldn’t try to emulate them too much. GW2 combat is pretty unique, even if it has its problems, and I would rather keep it that way.

But back to stealth, I think one of the biggest things ANet could do is give every class a reveal skill that doesn’t have to have an enemy target. Medium sized AoE effect either based around the player or a targetted skill. The CD doesn’t have to be great, the skill doesn’t have to be all that great (and ideally it won’t be, it should be a decision to be able to reveal players at the expense of losing a more valuable skill on your bar), but every class should at least have the ability to reveal other players if they wanted to take that skill.

OriOri.8724:

I do think that the stealth, CC, and boon/condi system in this game need to be looked at by ANet and redesigned. Stealth is mostly ok imo, just needs a few small tweaks like applying damaging conditions should break stealth the same as applying power damage does.

I appreciate that you link resources to what other games do with these mechanics, but I think we shouldn’t try to emulate them too much. GW2 combat is pretty unique, even if it has its problems, and I would rather keep it that way.

But back to stealth, I think one of the biggest things ANet could do is give every class a reveal skill that doesn’t have to have an enemy target. Medium sized AoE effect either based around the player or a targetted skill. The CD doesn’t have to be great, the skill doesn’t have to be all that great (and ideally it won’t be, it should be a decision to be able to reveal players at the expense of losing a more valuable skill on your bar), but every class should at least have the ability to reveal other players if they wanted to take that skill.

I agree obviously.

I posted those for two reasons. One was to show how much more effort was put toward creating healthier and more enjoyable pvp modes, and the other was to show the philosophy behind the thought processes.

I personally believe more reveal is not the answer. I think stealth should be in limited doses (like stealth openers, emergency use elite skills and specialized skills that fit the build) during combat, and that professions need to be studier without stealth in the equation.

We have pve designed classes, skills and combat designs shoved into pvp modes, and that doesn’t work. Finally spvp will get bits of balancing, but that still means wvw will be a big spam fest of stealth, condi, boons, 10k+ bursts… with huge disparities between professions.

Edit- It also makes zero sense to me that structured pvp is starting to be balanced differently than realm pvp. Realm pvp is not pve, but it’s being treated as such.

This game has the most broken stealth system i ever seen in an MMO. Could write a book about what is wrong but in the end its just wasting energy for nothing.

Most of the reason I stopped playing (for the most part) is that I haven’t seen any goal statements from Anet. I have no idea what kind of game they’re trying to make so I don’t know if it’s something I might enjoy. What I do know is that the game as it is isn’t worth the amount of time I generally put into it. With no hope in the present or the future, I decided to step out and eagerly await the CU Beta.

Swagger.1459:

The Game Slayer.7632:

But, in my opinion, stealth mechanics are fine and nicely balanced now… So… /thread?

This is a l2p issue. If you don’t like adapting, go play another game.

Besides, even if stealth is nerfed/redone/whatever, you and all the other newer players are just going to complain about the unlimited dodges from acro thieves or the superior mobility from shortbow.

I’m going to quote myself as a response…

Swagger.1459:

I’ve been checking out some comments in this thread and will have some replies soon, but I just wanted to make some players aware that the reason wvw and spvp have been such a mess since launch is because… (and I will paraphrase a developer here)… “balancing for all the game modes will add a lot of overhead to balance patches”…

So, all the funky and silly stuff we see happening in competitive games modes is not because that’s what the devs intended, it’s because the top is not giving the devs a green light to properly work on professions and combat for pvp modes…

Some of y’all might just keep defending away after reading this, but realize you are defending game designs that have been intentionally ignored and neglected.

Edit- and to be fair… only after 4 years have the devs started to make separate skill balances for spvp only, not wvw.

This was posted by Gaile 1 month ago… only 1 month ago. GW2 was released August 28th 2012 btw…

Gaile Gray.6029:

A message from the PvP Team:

Hey all,

We have a number of skill splits (and some global changes) that will be accompanying the launch of Season 5 next week. Read on to see what’s in store for December 13.

Over the past few releases the PvP team has been working closely with the Skills team to implement some PvP-only skill splits. Moving forward the PvP team will have more opportunity to make these skill splits as we see fit. It’s important to understand that skill splits should not change the core functionality of a skill. Players should be able to use a skill in PvE and have it do relatively the same thing in PvP, though it may be more or less effective depending on the game mode. This means that when we are looking to split out a skill, the changes are limited to the following areas:

• Recharge
• Damage multipliers
• Healing multipliers
• Number of conditions/boons applied
• Duration of conditions/boons applied
• Skill cost (energy and initiative)

A lot can be done with these knobs, but there still will be cases where we identify a problem skill or trait that we feel cannot be addressed without a functional change. In these cases, we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change.

Now on to the changes! Note that all changes listed are global changes except for those that are designated as “PvP only.”

Spvp only, but not a care about wvw…

From an AMA

Question from DarkNecrid…

“Can you provide a succinct statement on why ArenaNet is against splitting skills between PvE/W3/PvP because I’m glad you guys are not doing it due to what happened in GW1 when ArenaNet did this (PvE become more wildly imbalanced with massive power creep on skills that became completely different from their former counterpart like Signet of Spirits, PvP was balanced about the same prior to it, class mechanics changed between both formats, added another huge barrier of entry into PvP which is a format that already has a huge barrier of entry which killed off the PvP population pretty fast etc) but a lot of people still seem to want it even though the Guild Wars 2 ArenaNet has spent time these past few years actually reverting the splits you guys did do around launch so you seem to be against it as well with little statement as to why?”

Answer from Isaiah Cartwright…

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nxtz4?context=10000

“We are not fully against it but it adds a lot of overhead to every balance and design decisions as you move forward. While it does give you another tool box it does lead to optimizing skills heavily for each game type which does make power creep. like Mike Z always says and Colin gets blamed for its on the table and it’s something we may use in the future but we do often find most issues are global issues that are just highlighted in one area.”

“Overhead” means money and time… While it’s nice to finally see spvp get some effort put in, that still leaves wvw a complete mess.

Yea, and you’re crying about wvw balance. This is the same gamemode that allows things such as trailblazers and dire gear to exist. Wvw is a sandbox game mode that simple skill splits will not fix. At all. You’re asking for a complete rework of an entire game mechanic. No. /thread

I take any replies from a thief main with a pinch of salt…

Nothing wrong with having trailbrazers and dire existing, as well as several other types.

The issue is a lack of balance, and in particular the ease of use of stealth and the huge mobility whilst in use.

Most other games have a balance or trade off for being in ‘stealth’. This game has none, making it entirely in the thief’s favour.

Other issues on balance are continual block, invuln to name but two, not to mention dodging ad infinitum whilst your one decent damage skill on a huge cooldown is completely wasted.. Nothing should make it impossible to land damage on a target, but should cause damage mitigation instead.

There are so many balance issues that need working on. But a bit like the fabled ‘wvw team’ it seems to have disappeared into the mists.

Baldrick.8967:

I take any replies from a thief main with a pinch of salt…

Nothing wrong with having trailbrazers and dire existing, as well as several other types.

The issue is a lack of balance, and in particular the ease of use of stealth and the huge mobility whilst in use.

Most other games have a balance or trade off for being in ‘stealth’. This game has none, making it entirely in the thief’s favour.

Other issues on balance are continual block, invuln to name but two, not to mention dodging ad infinitum whilst your one decent damage skill on a huge cooldown is completely wasted.. Nothing should make it impossible to land damage on a target, but should cause damage mitigation instead.

There are so many balance issues that need working on. But a bit like the fabled ‘wvw team’ it seems to have disappeared into the mists.

The funniest thing is Scrappers and Druids get better mobility while in Stealth more so than Thief (thief just maintains some of their mobility in stealth, because a lot of their mobility is tied to the same resource as their stealth).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The funniest thing is Scrappers and Druids get better mobility while in Stealth more so than Thief (thief just maintains some of their mobility in stealth, because a lot of their mobility is tied to the same resource as their stealth).

Druid, yeah. Scrapper? Absolutely not… Scrapper cannot keep up with Druid/Thief in mobility.

Jeknar.6184:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The funniest thing is Scrappers and Druids get better mobility while in Stealth more so than Thief (thief just maintains some of their mobility in stealth, because a lot of their mobility is tied to the same resource as their stealth).

Druid, yeah. Scrapper? Absolutely not… Scrapper cannot keep up with Druid/Thief in mobility.

Uhm a Scrapper activating Stealth Gyro gains Superspeed… which wait for it…. increases mobility while stealth…. Queue minds blowing…. anywhere in my original post say that Scrapper had more overall mobility than Druid and Thief? Nope I don’t think I did, I solely stated that their mobility increases with stealth on those two classes…

Edited and struck through my my mistake, misread the trait for Scrapper. Point still stands for the Druid though.

Paragon handles stealth in an interesting way. While the advantage of stealth in this game is pretty enormous, it does have counters and ways to mitigate the threat. By looking at all of those Paragon links, seems like you would much rather be playing that game! Hah just kidding. I can tell that you want whats best for GW2.

Offair.2563:

This game has the most broken stealth system i ever seen in an MMO. Could write a book about what is wrong but in the end its just wasting energy for nothing.

agreed. Ive never seen Stealth like this. Previous games I played when you entered stealth your movement speed SLOWED down. In GW2 you have traits that INCREASE your speed in stealth. Also condi damage should definitely reveal like power damage does right now. Otherwise im ok with stealth stacking etc.

Anet does not take balance seriously enough to dedicate adequate development resource time to it.

Baldrick.8967:

Nothing wrong with having trailbrazers and dire existing, as well as several other types.

I think I spotted the condi user!

Lol, but really though. Stealth has been the same since the launch of the game. Trailblazers and dire have been added somewhat recently. This entire thread is laughable. And BELIEVE me, check my history if you want, I used to absolutely hate thieves/stealth around 2 years ago. I thought it was absurdly broken. It’s not now, with the addition of an array of skills that add reveal.

TL;DR: If someone is going to assert that stealth is broken, but then also defends trailblazer/dire gear, they are not experienced at this game yet. It’s a l2p issue.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Stealth has been the same since the launch of the game. Trailblazers and dire have been added somewhat recently.

Dire been on the game just as long as stealth. It was just harder to obtain prior they removed the Magic Find gear and added Dire on it’s place to the CoE Dungeon rewards (which also was several years ago).

Trailblazer yeah, that came with HoT.

Jeknar.6184:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Stealth has been the same since the launch of the game. Trailblazers and dire have been added somewhat recently.

Dire been on the game just as long as stealth. It was just harder to obtain prior they removed the Magic Find gear and added Dire on it’s place to the CoE Dungeon rewards (which also was several years ago).

Trailblazer yeah, that came with HoT.

Well, it was so hard to obtain that I didn’t even know it existed. That’s just my experience, though. In wvw, condis have been running rampant as being dominant builds in roaming, havoc, or anything that isn’t zerging ever since trailblazers/dire had become readily accessible. And there have been far more topics created about that in the past 2 years than there has been about stealth.

Like, this thread is so laughable that I know that I actually don’t need to reply to any of this. I already know with certainty that stealth will not be changed/redone in the future. Stealth breaks absolutely nothing in this game. Unless it’s your ego, because you can’t l2p. That’s different, then. Seeing a thread like this invokes nostalgia in me, and I guess I’m only replying because I actually feel bad for anyone who thinks stealth is broken.

I stumbled upon the reason why these issues are never addressed today.
It’s this:

do it right, or don’t do it at all

People say roaming is boring, when you go roaming and 3 out of 4 classes you meet are thieves and mesmers, yeah well gee I wonder why when you have to constantly fight stealth and condition these days. Just wait till you fight them in packs, oh what joy you will experience.

A lot of roamers want an advantage in a fight, none bigger than stealth to start with, and none bigger to give others the slip. For some reason players without stealth are asked to do more against those classes with stealth, use stealth trap! learn to play! run away! aoe moar! one shot them back! Every build seems to be a gimmick, power teef blowing you up in 2 shots? gimmick! ghost condition blow you up teef? gimmick! ghost trapper teef? gimmick, evade for dayz teef? gimmick!

They gave every class stun breakers to counter stun, they gave every class condition clears to counter conditions, why did they not give a reveal skill for every class for stealth if they were designing stealth with little restriction in the first place? Why are rangers engineers, more recently revenants and warriors the only ones?

Anyone ever seen an anet player roaming? they’re usually running in zergs, think they would know the day in day out pains of playing against stealth? No, so no point asking for redesigns cause Anet won’t bother. Balance in this game sucks, QQ.

Xenesis.6389:

Anyone ever seen an anet player roaming? they’re usually running in zergs, think they would know the day in day out pains of playing against stealth? No, so no point asking for redesigns cause Anet won’t bother. Balance in this game sucks, QQ.

I once saw a Arena Net Necro by himself taking camps in a enemy borderland. But It iwas during the Darkhaven pairings at the bottom of T4, so I think he was doing that out of necessity. There was outnumbered buff in every map.

Jeknar.6184:

Xenesis.6389:

Anyone ever seen an anet player roaming? they’re usually running in zergs, think they would know the day in day out pains of playing against stealth? No, so no point asking for redesigns cause Anet won’t bother. Balance in this game sucks, QQ.

I once saw a Arena Net Necro by himself taking camps in a enemy borderland. But It iwas during the Darkhaven pairings at the bottom of T4, so I think he was doing that out of necessity. There was outnumbered buff in every map.

We have a somewhat active dev on SoS.

Enough with the stealth spam already, this garbage needs to be nerfed once and for all. It is absolutely ridiculous that in a competitive game mode anyone can go invisible basically permanently, and go back into stealth as soon as they go come out of it.

Make Reveal take effect anytime you leave stealth, regardless of whether you attack. Maybe then this garbage can be somewhat balanced.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Jeknar.6184:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The funniest thing is Scrappers and Druids get better mobility while in Stealth more so than Thief (thief just maintains some of their mobility in stealth, because a lot of their mobility is tied to the same resource as their stealth).

Druid, yeah. Scrapper? Absolutely not… Scrapper cannot keep up with Druid/Thief in mobility.

Uhm a Scrapper activating Stealth Gyro gains Superspeed… which wait for it…. increases mobility while stealth…. Queue minds blowing…. anywhere in my original post sty that Scrapper had more overall mobility than Druid and Thief? Nope I don’t think I did, I solely stated that their mobility increases with stealth on those two classes…

You have never played Scrapper I see.

You only gain superspeed when destroying a gyro if final salvo is traited. The stealth gyro is no different. Few actually trait that because they use power hammer builds. Mass momentum hammer trait conflict with rapid regen, which you want if you want to get good use of final salvo. So most will pick adaptive armor instead and thus never achieve superspeed on gyro death.

So you are completely incorrect. Scrapper has no speed boost on stealth whatsoever.

Dawdler.8521:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Jeknar.6184:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The funniest thing is Scrappers and Druids get better mobility while in Stealth more so than Thief (thief just maintains some of their mobility in stealth, because a lot of their mobility is tied to the same resource as their stealth).

Druid, yeah. Scrapper? Absolutely not… Scrapper cannot keep up with Druid/Thief in mobility.

Uhm a Scrapper activating Stealth Gyro gains Superspeed… which wait for it…. increases mobility while stealth…. Queue minds blowing…. anywhere in my original post sty that Scrapper had more overall mobility than Druid and Thief? Nope I don’t think I did, I solely stated that their mobility increases with stealth on those two classes…

You have never played Scrapper I see.

You only gain superspeed when destroying a gyro if final salvo is traited. The stealth gyro is no different. Few actually trait that because they use power hammer builds. Mass momentum hammer trait conflict with rapid regen, which you want if you want to get good use of final salvo. So most will pick adaptive armor instead and thus never achieve superspeed on gyro death.

So you are completely incorrect. Scrapper has no speed boost on stealth whatsoever.

Queuing mind blown!

Dawdler.8521:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Jeknar.6184:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The funniest thing is Scrappers and Druids get better mobility while in Stealth more so than Thief (thief just maintains some of their mobility in stealth, because a lot of their mobility is tied to the same resource as their stealth).

Druid, yeah. Scrapper? Absolutely not… Scrapper cannot keep up with Druid/Thief in mobility.

Uhm a Scrapper activating Stealth Gyro gains Superspeed… which wait for it…. increases mobility while stealth…. Queue minds blowing…. anywhere in my original post sty that Scrapper had more overall mobility than Druid and Thief? Nope I don’t think I did, I solely stated that their mobility increases with stealth on those two classes…

You have never played Scrapper I see.

You only gain superspeed when destroying a gyro if final salvo is traited. The stealth gyro is no different. Few actually trait that because they use power hammer builds. Mass momentum hammer trait conflict with rapid regen, which you want if you want to get good use of final salvo. So most will pick adaptive armor instead and thus never achieve superspeed on gyro death.

So you are completely incorrect. Scrapper has no speed boost on stealth whatsoever.

Hmm you are right I don’t play Scrapper, then I misread the trait. Never mind on the Scrapper gaining movement speed with the Stealth Gyro.

3 seconds of superspeed at the end of CA (which is locked into being utilized at the same time as that stealth) won’t keep up with the various kiting abilities and gap closers available to thief. I’d gladly trade that kitten for a CA stability trait. I don’t like blowing 60~75s stab cooldowns just to be able to heal my zerg in a larger fight.

Also, having condition ticks break stealth is an awful idea. It basically destroys any hope of not being revealed — many power builds have a small number of unavoidable conditions built into their weapon skills (or traits).

I do like the idea of diminishing returns @ hard cc though.

~ Kovu

Kovu.7560:

3 seconds of superspeed at the end of CA (which is locked into being utilized at the same time as that stealth) won’t keep up with the various kiting abilities and gap closers available to thief. I’d gladly trade that kitten for a CA stability trait. I don’t like blowing 60~75s stab cooldowns just to be able to heal my zerg in a larger fight.

Also, having condition ticks break stealth is an awful idea. It basically destroys any hope of not being revealed — many power builds have a small number of unavoidable conditions built into their weapon skills (or traits).

I do like the idea of diminishing returns @ hard cc though.

~ Kovu

Applying damaging conditions is different from every tick on a damage condition….. Applying damaging conditions should break stealth the same as dealing power damage breaks stealth. Both of those things actively deal damage to another player, yet only one of them breaks stealth.

X T D.6458:

Enough with the stealth spam already, this garbage needs to be nerfed once and for all. It is absolutely ridiculous that in a competitive game mode anyone can go invisible basically permanently, and go back into stealth as soon as they go come out of it.

Make Reveal take effect anytime you leave stealth, regardless of whether you attack. Maybe then this garbage can be somewhat balanced.

Nope.

@OriOri: That’s fair. Ghost thieves should not be a thing.

~ Kovu

I gave up to fighting some classes since I won´t be able to catch them and if i try i would put all my skills on cd giving the enemy the chance to kill me easily.

I think the way to reduce the insanity of some mechanics is to give the stealth classes more revealed time when he/she strikes(it is 2-3 seconds atm). This would make bad players easier to kill and force them to make better decisitions and time better their strike and back.

I usually use Attack (ranger shout) when i face condi thief but is not very useful when the thief can jump away 3k distance till debuff expires. and I have wasted a valuable skill slot.

The dodge and hit mastery is simply ridiculous.

Kovu.7560:

@OriOri: That’s fair. Ghost thieves should not be a thing.

~ Kovu

Agreed. A mechanic where you can deal damage without ever being seen is fundamentally broken, even if it isn’t OP

I saw today mesmer that was so bad player that he actually used stealth. I was stunned how low some players can go.

OriOri.8724:

Kovu.7560:

@OriOri: That’s fair. Ghost thieves should not be a thing.

~ Kovu

Agreed. A mechanic where you can deal damage without ever being seen is fundamentally broken, even if it isn’t OP

Stealth isn’t the problem. It’s being able to deal damage and still stay stealthed. Thief traps need a revamp.

Well that at least is an easy fix. Put a small amount of direct damage on the traps.
Similar to ranger traps.

~ Kovu

Kovu.7560:

Well that at least is an easy fix. Put a small amount of direct damage on the traps.
Similar to ranger traps.

~ Kovu

It’s so obvious and easy to implement balance change, I’m flabbergasted why ANet didn’t do it in last balance patch.

X T D.6458:

Enough with the stealth spam already, this garbage needs to be nerfed once and for all. It is absolutely ridiculous that in a competitive game mode anyone can go invisible basically permanently, and go back into stealth as soon as they go come out of it.

Make Reveal take effect anytime you leave stealth, regardless of whether you attack. Maybe then this garbage can be somewhat balanced.

yeppers.
increase revealed to like 10 seconds.

Don’t allow players to stack stealth. That fixes most of the issues with stealth.

CC is tough to address without going down a very slippery slope. My suggestion is that when CC is removed a “CC Resistance” stack is applied. Each stack would reduce incoming CC duration for a short duration. Get enough stacks and CC would have no effect until the stacks timed out. This would prevent chain stuns and allow zergs to mix it up more.

Condi… whew that is a mess all its own. I would also add damage modifiers should be additive not multiplicative. Most of those monstrous semi-one shot hits are from damage multipliers amplifying each other.

To address cc spam I would give all stun breakers a brief window of cc invuln, revert stab back to duration, put duration caps on all boons. Maybe even change might to duration only and give it a flat damage increase (33%).

Straegen.2938:

Don’t allow players to stack stealth. That fixes most of the issues with stealth.

That is the biggest issue, the stacking and spamming of the most broken mechanic in the game. PvP and WvW are competitive game modes and it is absolutely ridiculous that people can stay invisible and even kill you while in stealth.

I don’t even mind the buffs that come with stealth if this crap has to be in the game, but they at least have to stop allowing it to be abused to the point it is. Like I suggested in an earlier post, make reveal always take effect when leaving stealth regardless of whether or not damage was inflicted. That would make it a lot more manageable while still being very useful.

Sigh, another one of THESE threads. “Oh my god why can Thieves stack stealth so much It’s uncounterable it’s so OP I lose every time Thieves OP nerf stealth nerf mobility nerf everything ragequit”

If Thieves are sitting there stacking stealth, or in other terms, running a “perma stealth” build like some of you are complaining about then it is one of two builds: Ghost Thief, which sure it shouldn’t exist but it’s a garbage build and is simply a noob killer, and is not a result of broken stealth mechanics but of broken TRAP mechanics not applying direct damage. OR, they’re running Black Powder with Shadow Arts and probably Shadow Refuge (the latter two being garbage choices) and they’re using so much initiative and utility cds that the actual effectiveness in combat is kitten.

The ONLY thing currently “wrong” with stealth was how HoT handed it out like candy to Druids and Scrappers in particular. Thieves access to Stealth isn’t “game-breaking” because we give up things that other classes have in abundance: Stability, Protection, and boon-stacking in general, as well as Invuln spam and overall tankiness. The problem arises when you give Stealth access (which IS a powerful mechanic) to classes that don’t NEED it, but use it as a suplement to the enormous sustain they already have. THAT is broken, not stealth in general. Nerfing Stealth is basically a nerf to Thief across the board, and in effect makes one of our traitlines, SA, which RELIES on stealth, totally useless. Druids/Scrappers? They won’t give a kitten about Stealth nerfs because they don’t need Stealth, they have plenty of other ways to sustain themselves.

X T D, I’ll explain to you in very simple terms why your suggestion right there is awful. Firstly, as I stated above, that’s basically a nerf to Thief. Not to Scrappers/Druid/etc. WHERE does it nerf Thief? Well D/P might feel it a bit but let’s face it, D/P doesn’t tend to stack stealth anymore and Backstab isn’t used because Shadow Shot is available. So D/P probably wouldn’t care too much.

What you’re basically nerfing there is Power D/D (REALLY hard) P/D and S/D (to a lesser extent). Why? Because unlike D/P, D/D absolutely 100% relies on CnD + Backstab for burst. It already became COMPLETELY useless after the Stealth attack cooldown because we basically only have one chance to land a Backstab now after a successful CnD, which in and of itself is difficult to land. Your suggestion would furthur punish us for missing it so much that you’re basically asking for the removal of the set from the game. Because it just wouldn’t kill anything if they weren’t standing still and not paying attention.

You clearly don’t play Thief, otherwise you’d have rethought that suggestion pretty quickly because it’s a very silly one.

Easy to pick out the teef players in threads like these.

I can’t take someone that uses “y’all” this many times in a post seriously. City of Heroes was made by Cryptic and they use a similar system in STO for stealth. While I think that is a better system for stealth their version of CC and immunity is much much worse than ANets.

You can’t really have the stealth system in this game as it’s a point investment and pretty much only counters stealth as well as having reveal ranges. It would be far more of a mess trying to implement that system here. Instead I think they need to have stealth not stacking and adjust stealth times from there and cool downs. Stealth should be a tactical play not something you can sit in and strike at leisure while being mostly unpunished outside of your own ineptitude.

As for CC, a lot of CC skills can be blocked or dodged in addition to having stunbreaks and stability in varying amounts with the options in some cases to trait something to break stun. Sure there’s a bit too much CC or too easy access for low cool down but that’s a numbers issue that’s easily tuned by increasing cool downs or removing daze from something spammable like mace primal burst.

I will remind the people who play thief and mesmer, that Stealth is NOT a profession mechanic. It is a game effect/mechanic.

Stealth is incredibly broken, and needs to be finally brought into line. Whether you like it or think it is useful is irrelevant, it is broken and unbalanced plain and simply.

X T D.6458:

I will remind the people who play thief and mesmer, that Stealth is NOT a profession mechanic. It is a game effect/mechanic.

Stealth is incredibly broken, and needs to be finally brought into line. Whether you like it or think it is useful is irrelevant, it is broken and unbalanced plain and simply.

Bahahaha Shadow Arts and All the Thief Weapons having Stealth attacks beg to differ…..

I mean it’s not like Thief has different mehanics while Stealthed or has their class Directly influenced while Stealthed Like Thief, but yes on the other 8 classes It is not a class mechanic per say.