Guild Wars 2

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

Fizzlepip.5218:

I’m not even going to bother to read this:

Yes, Stealth is busted and shouldn’t have been included in PvP/WvW play.
But since they royally kittened that up, there’s no way of fixing it without serious game overhaul.

It would literally BREAK the Thief class. No, not make it so people wouldn’t play it because we wouldn’t be gimmicky backstabbers. Most good players have moved on from those builds. It would break it because Stealth is our only means of defense, some of our offense, and pretty much overall gameplay. You take Stealth from the game and Thieves are little more than giant paper targets.

Wrong. They can make a small stealth change. No need to be dramatic. You have other defense, like skill sum dodge, food, armor.

All other classes have those defenses, and then some.

so stealth is not the thief’s ONLY defense. Your steatement is incorrect. Don’t be so dramatic. Thieves could withstand a little stealth nerf here and there. It won’t be the end of the world.

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

Fizzlepip.5218:

I’m not even going to bother to read this:

Yes, Stealth is busted and shouldn’t have been included in PvP/WvW play.
But since they royally kittened that up, there’s no way of fixing it without serious game overhaul.

It would literally BREAK the Thief class. No, not make it so people wouldn’t play it because we wouldn’t be gimmicky backstabbers. Most good players have moved on from those builds. It would break it because Stealth is our only means of defense, some of our offense, and pretty much overall gameplay. You take Stealth from the game and Thieves are little more than giant paper targets.

Wrong. They can make a small stealth change. No need to be dramatic. You have other defense, like skill sum dodge, food, armor.

All other classes have those defenses, and then some.

so stealth is not the thief’s ONLY defense. Your steatement is incorrect. Don’t be so dramatic. Thieves could withstand a little stealth nerf here and there. It won’t be the end of the world.

My statement is not incorrect. All the other classes have those defenses, and then some.

Stealth doesn’t need a nerf. It’s fine, even in WvW.

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

Fizzlepip.5218:

I’m not even going to bother to read this:

Yes, Stealth is busted and shouldn’t have been included in PvP/WvW play.
But since they royally kittened that up, there’s no way of fixing it without serious game overhaul.

It would literally BREAK the Thief class. No, not make it so people wouldn’t play it because we wouldn’t be gimmicky backstabbers. Most good players have moved on from those builds. It would break it because Stealth is our only means of defense, some of our offense, and pretty much overall gameplay. You take Stealth from the game and Thieves are little more than giant paper targets.

Wrong. They can make a small stealth change. No need to be dramatic. You have other defense, like skill sum dodge, food, armor.

All other classes have those defenses, and then some.

so stealth is not the thief’s ONLY defense. Your steatement is incorrect. Don’t be so dramatic. Thieves could withstand a little stealth nerf here and there. It won’t be the end of the world.

My statement is not incorrect. All the other classes have those defenses, and then some.

Stealth doesn’t need a nerf. It’s fine, even in WvW.

How would you feel about making it so the damage numbers appear on other people’s screens if you take damage while in stealth? That way you’re still in stealth, but people know what general area you’re in. Or if you take maybe 20% more damage while in stealth?

RyuDragnier.9476:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

Fizzlepip.5218:

I’m not even going to bother to read this:

Yes, Stealth is busted and shouldn’t have been included in PvP/WvW play.
But since they royally kittened that up, there’s no way of fixing it without serious game overhaul.

It would literally BREAK the Thief class. No, not make it so people wouldn’t play it because we wouldn’t be gimmicky backstabbers. Most good players have moved on from those builds. It would break it because Stealth is our only means of defense, some of our offense, and pretty much overall gameplay. You take Stealth from the game and Thieves are little more than giant paper targets.

Wrong. They can make a small stealth change. No need to be dramatic. You have other defense, like skill sum dodge, food, armor.

All other classes have those defenses, and then some.

so stealth is not the thief’s ONLY defense. Your steatement is incorrect. Don’t be so dramatic. Thieves could withstand a little stealth nerf here and there. It won’t be the end of the world.

My statement is not incorrect. All the other classes have those defenses, and then some.

Stealth doesn’t need a nerf. It’s fine, even in WvW.

How would you feel about making it so the damage numbers appear on other people’s screens if you take damage while in stealth? That way you’re still in stealth, but people know what general area you’re in. Or if you take maybe 20% more damage while in stealth?

I’m all for the numbers showing. Maybe not DoTs, but direct damage should show for sure.
As a temporary solution you can spam #1, if you go to the second attack in the chain you know you’ve hit them. But again, yes, I think the damage should show on your screen.

[edit] I realise that last part could be interpreted as being condescending. I didn’t intend it that way.

magicthighs.5372:

I’m all for the numbers showing. Maybe not DoTs, but direct damage should show for sure.
As a temporary solution you can spam #1, if you go to the second attack in the chain you know you’ve hit them. But again, yes, I think the damage should show on your screen.

This only works on melee auto attacks that have a chain. On skills that do not have a chain, or ranged attacks (most ranged spells shoot the ground or fail to shoot if you don’t have a target) will not be able to hit anything. Until that has been fixed, damage numbers are not viable.

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

Fizzlepip.5218:

I’m not even going to bother to read this:

Yes, Stealth is busted and shouldn’t have been included in PvP/WvW play.
But since they royally kittened that up, there’s no way of fixing it without serious game overhaul.

It would literally BREAK the Thief class. No, not make it so people wouldn’t play it because we wouldn’t be gimmicky backstabbers. Most good players have moved on from those builds. It would break it because Stealth is our only means of defense, some of our offense, and pretty much overall gameplay. You take Stealth from the game and Thieves are little more than giant paper targets.

Wrong. They can make a small stealth change. No need to be dramatic. You have other defense, like skill sum dodge, food, armor.

All other classes have those defenses, and then some.

so stealth is not the thief’s ONLY defense. Your steatement is incorrect. Don’t be so dramatic. Thieves could withstand a little stealth nerf here and there. It won’t be the end of the world.

My statement is not incorrect. All the other classes have those defenses, and then some.

Stealth doesn’t need a nerf. It’s fine, even in WvW.

Your original statement said that thieves had no defense other than stealth. It made no comparative statements. It was an absolute comment.. That’s not accurate.

People complaining about thief damage are stupid. Only reasonable argument is stealth chaining with culling being overpowered(stealth in general is op as hell). Glass cannon damage is fine and working as intended. Any class can do the same damage, just the fact that thieves can go in and out of fights with stealth bursting people down is the ridiculous part. If any other class tried that they’d immediately get thrashed and finished instantly. As a warrior, I’d gladly give up a utility slot for some type of stealth detection so I’m not blindly swinging at air hoping I downed the son of a kitten.

It’s the combination of the highest dps, best mobility and permastealth that’s wrecking WvWvW.

That video is pretty insane, id like to see him do that on a Guardian.

I would be fine with numbers showing when hitting my thief in stealth. To me it’s a valid way of trying to detect the thief. It would only show to the players who were hitting the thief (it makes sense that some one who is hitting something would be able to tell that they are hitting something lol)

Chorazin.4107:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic

That video is pretty insane, id like to see him do that on a Guardian.

need we say anything else? how can anet developers look at this and hold their heads up. What a laughably imbalanced class.

Columba.9730:

It’s the combination of the highest dps, best mobility and permastealth that’s wrecking WvWvW.

Thiefs are not the most mobile.

Warriors and Elementalists are both faster. The thief however is far more evasive, because you dont know which direction the thief is running in, its very hard to chase.

Draygo.9473:

Columba.9730:

It’s the combination of the highest dps, best mobility and permastealth that’s wrecking WvWvW.

Thiefs are not the most mobile.

Warriors and Elementalists are both faster. The thief however is far more evasive, because you dont know which direction the thief is running in, its very hard to chase.

nope. thieves can get 50% run speed.

Columba.9730:

nope. thieves can get 50% run speed.

movement speed has a cap at 33% (swiftness) nothing can go past that. at least read the wiki on the thief so you can be more informed when you complain.

oZii.2864:

Columba.9730:

nope. thieves can get 50% run speed.

movement speed has a cap at 33% (swiftness) nothing can go past that. at least read the wiki on the thief so you can be more informed when you complain.

Fleet Shadow
Trait line Acrobatics Tier Adept Type Major

Move 50% faster while in stealth.

This works at the full 50% speed only when out of combat, but as an escape tool it can work wonders. It caps out at 33% in combat, but this might be a bug.

Columba.9730:

Your original statement said that thieves had no defense other than stealth.
It made no comparative statements. It was an absolute comment.. That’s not accurate.

I said no such thing. Read my posts. I said all other classes have those defenses you listed, and then some.

xiv.7136:

oZii.2864:

Columba.9730:

nope. thieves can get 50% run speed.

movement speed has a cap at 33% (swiftness) nothing can go past that. at least read the wiki on the thief so you can be more informed when you complain.

Fleet Shadow
Trait line Acrobatics Tier Adept Type Major

Move 50% faster while in stealth.

This works at the full 50% speed only when out of combat, but as an escape tool it can work wonders. It caps out at 33% in combat, but this might be a bug.

Context

Columba.9730:

Draygo.9473:

Columba.9730:

It’s the combination of the highest dps, best mobility and permastealth that’s wrecking WvWvW.

Thiefs are not the most mobile.

Warriors and Elementalists are both faster. The thief however is far more evasive, because you dont know which direction the thief is running in, its very hard to chase.

nope. thieves can get 50% run speed.

My reply was based on that conversation I know that out of combat it’s 50% but based on the conversation above if someone said elementalists have better mobility than a thief would your counter be fleet shadow? Thats why I said 33% because the 50% increase in speed out of combat doesn’t even come close when comparing to a warrior and elementalists skills used for mobility. Its sure not faster than RTL.

A straight up better comparison of fleet shadow is 33% movenment speed and swiftness. Swiftness>fleet shadow if your running next to another player and you have this trait and another has swiftness and another is running SoS you would barely be able to tell unless you really paid attention. It not like going 33 mph and 50 mph.

It would seem that some people have forgotten that thieves have access to ports.

Oozo.7856:

It would seem that some people have forgotten that thieves have access to ports.

With boats?

15 char

oZii.2864:

Oozo.7856:

It would seem that some people have forgotten that thieves have access to ports.

With boats?

15 char

Tortuga. DUH.

Stealth is fine.

Thieves are fine.

In my opinion the problem with thieves comes in 2 parts
1) Thieves are just not fun to play against. Say what you want about all the ways to counter stealth, (e.g. attacking the air) – a decent thief will be able to escape most encounters that he is losing. And before you say to snare/cripple.etc him, remember that thieves have the most blinks in the game (Ride the Lightning/Burning speed doesn’t work when immobilized for example)

That’s not to say it isn’t effective – cc is the #1 cause of death when I play my thief. However what happens if you successfully immobilize any other class when they can’t sustain in the fight anymore? They die. Why should thieves be any different?

So basically if I win against a thief, they get away and I get to survive. No loot or anything. If they win I have absolutely 0 chance of getting away short of being a D/D elementalist or a nearby keep/allies. Then run all the way back from the spawn point. Kinda skews the risk/reward ratio doesn’t it? Of course this isn’t a problem in sPvP since the aim is to stand in the circle.

2) Thieves ARE overpowered. With the cheesy D/P build I find myself spamming 5-2-1 5-2-1 over and over again, and it works! Yeah so I have to walk behind the enemy and manage initiative, as well as use Hide in Shadows/Blinding Powder occasionally. Big deal.

Sometimes I come across really amazing players that would have destroyed me on my D/D elementalist or guardian or mesmer, and simply by spamming pistol 5 + heartseeker I can fight on even terms with them. So in my opinion – (at least) this thief build is overpowered. I don’t feel qualified to comment on the other weapon sets/builds as this is the one I use the most frequently.

I will say one thing though – the initiative system is too good for PvP. Being able to use any skill on demand provided you manage initiative properly, AND also being able to frontload damage so severely is really, really good. Yes I know it means you can’t just lolspam everything like an elementalist would, but initiative regens pretty fast anyway.

And to all the people that say thieves are only good in small encounters, this is a blatant lie. Sure you might need to switch out a few utilities (wow that’s so difficult), but the smoke wall is amazing with a low cooldown, cluster bomb is a spammable blast finisher (super high might/healing, anyone?), and of course you can just go behind their zerg and pick people off. Shortbow 4 poisons and leaves poison fields – reducing healing by 33%. Nothing comes close to a well timed Dagger Storm. That’s far from useless.

Also stop saying that 1v1 capability is useless for actually getting points. Something that I like to do is run around killing dolyaks. Nobody – at all – can kill me (unless you bring 5+ people, and even then I’ll probably stealth away) and this has a far greater effect on the score than running around with the massive zerg. Few classes can do this as effectively as the thief by the way.

Being able to delay the trickle of people from their spawn point is excellent for helping your zerg too.

TLDR; Thieves are OP (and I’ll gladly post a picture of my thief if you think I’m just making stuff up)

EDIT: By the way D/D elementalists have some of the same problems, and as you can see Anet nerfed them citing too much mobility with RTL. So don’t use them as an example of why thieves aren’t OP.

Draygo.9473:

Columba.9730:

It’s the combination of the highest dps, best mobility and permastealth that’s wrecking WvWvW.

Thiefs are not the most mobile.

Warriors and Elementalists are both faster. The thief however is far more evasive, because you dont know which direction the thief is running in, its very hard to chase.

Please, please tell me how is warrior faster and more mobile, very please

Lighter.5631:

Draygo.9473:

Columba.9730:

It’s the combination of the highest dps, best mobility and permastealth that’s wrecking WvWvW.

Thiefs are not the most mobile.

Warriors and Elementalists are both faster. The thief however is far more evasive, because you dont know which direction the thief is running in, its very hard to chase.

Please, please tell me how is warrior faster and more mobile, very please

Greatsword ‘5’, Sword ‘2’, Perma Swiftness.

Problem with Warriors is they don’t have sustain or condition removal and elementalist does.

So if a Warrior gets CCed while running away he can’t do anything about it, BUUUT if he does get far away, nothing can catch him, not even an Ele.

Thieves are not OP, as they can easily lose a 1v1. However, losing a 1v1 as a thief does not result in death, and that is a problem.
Other classes can burst as much dmg as thieves, but thieves have the ability to escape combat whenever they want, therefore there is no risk.
This results in the risk/reward ratio being competely screwed, which a lot people have already mentioned.
Basically there has to be a debuff that makes you unable to stealth, even outside of combat. This would also fix the problem with thieves always having an invis stomp ready at hand (depending on the duration of the debuff), and i am of course referring to CnD here. You can just CnD the downed person and there you go. Knowing you would get a debuff going into stealth, thieves would have to more carefully chose when they go stealth.

I’m not sure how can people die to Thieves unless it was totally unexpected while fighting someone else.
All their burst is sitting on the initial attack, you block that and 3shot the Thief, simple as that.

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

I’m not sure how can people die to Thieves unless it was totally unexpected while fighting someone else.
All their burst is sitting on the initial attack, you block that and 3shot the Thief, simple as that.

You ever fight a bulky P/D thief?
What about one using Valkyrie to get around 18k+ HP and still maintaining high burst?

KrisHQ.4719:

Thieves are not OP, as they can easily lose a 1v1. However, losing a 1v1 as a thief does not result in death, and that is a problem.
Other classes can burst as much dmg as thieves, but thieves have the ability to escape combat whenever they want, therefore there is no risk.
This results in the risk/reward ratio being competely screwed, which a lot people have already mentioned.
Basically there has to be a debuff that makes you unable to stealth, even outside of combat. This would also fix the problem with thieves always having an invis stomp ready at hand (depending on the duration of the debuff), and i am of course referring to CnD here. You can just CnD the downed person and there you go. Knowing you would get a debuff going into stealth, thieves would have to more carefully chose when they go stealth.

Thieves die easily in 1×1s? No. 90% of the players would vehemently disagree. Look at all the posts showing how Fgs can’t kill a thief.

Columba.9730:

KrisHQ.4719:

Thieves are not OP, as they can easily lose a 1v1. However, losing a 1v1 as a thief does not result in death, and that is a problem.
Other classes can burst as much dmg as thieves, but thieves have the ability to escape combat whenever they want, therefore there is no risk.
This results in the risk/reward ratio being competely screwed, which a lot people have already mentioned.
Basically there has to be a debuff that makes you unable to stealth, even outside of combat. This would also fix the problem with thieves always having an invis stomp ready at hand (depending on the duration of the debuff), and i am of course referring to CnD here. You can just CnD the downed person and there you go. Knowing you would get a debuff going into stealth, thieves would have to more carefully chose when they go stealth.

Thieves die easily in 1×1s? No. 90% of the players would vehemently disagree. Look at all the posts showing how Fgs can’t kill a thief.

Thieves do not DIE easily. But they can still lose the fight.

Columba.9730:

Chorazin.4107:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic

That video is pretty insane, id like to see him do that on a Guardian.

need we say anything else? how can anet developers look at this and hold their heads up. What a laughably imbalanced class.

Protip… CC is a thief’s weakness. Immobilize/daze/whatever the thief then smash. A group of players should have far more than enough people to immobilize/daze/knock the thief away and prevent a stealth stomp that way… or a couple of players can just quickly revive downed players before they get stomped. I can easily do all of the above on my guardian/mesmer/engineer. Thief isn’t the issue. The issue is that the vast majority of WvW players act like clueless grazing cattle

As far as the guardian comment… no he stay in another group like that… but what he can do in other ways which the thief can’t more than makes up for that. I’ve pushed back entire zergs with LoW + WoR before. That has a far greater impact on the overall state of a WvW match than killing some random people mulling around. I would love to see a thief do that.

Daecollo.9578:

Lighter.5631:

Draygo.9473:

Columba.9730:

It’s the combination of the highest dps, best mobility and permastealth that’s wrecking WvWvW.

Thiefs are not the most mobile.

Warriors and Elementalists are both faster. The thief however is far more evasive, because you dont know which direction the thief is running in, its very hard to chase.

Please, please tell me how is warrior faster and more mobile, very please

Greatsword ‘5’, Sword ‘2’, Perma Swiftness.

Problem with Warriors is they don’t have sustain or condition removal and elementalist does.

So if a Warrior gets CCed while running away he can’t do anything about it, BUUUT if he does get far away, nothing can catch him, not even an Ele.

This in combination with mobile strikes is the only thing keeping me alive in WvW. If I get crippled or chilled during rush = gg.

Just got done chasing around a stealther for about twenty minutes… and yeah, it’s just not very fun. Thief ends up losing the fight? No big deal, just stealth and run away to try again in a few minutes.

I have no idea why ArenaNet decided to implement this woefully broken version of stealth when Guild Wars did just fine without it for years but one thing is for certain and that is that it needs to go.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Just got done chasing around a stealther for about twenty minutes… and yeah, it’s just not very fun. Thief ends up losing the fight? No big deal, just stealth and run away to try again in a few minutes.

I have no idea why ArenaNet decided to implement this woefully broken version of stealth when Guild Wars did just fine without it for years but one thing is for certain and that is that it needs to go.

I encourage you to send persistant and respectful feedback to anet on this. stealth in this game is horribly implemented and must be adjusted. do whatever you want for pve, i care not, but in wvwvw, stealth is a complete and utter joke. No other game has allowed stealthers to attack from and remain in stealth permanently as they do here. it’s absurd.

Columba.9730:

Draygo.9473:

Columba.9730:

It’s the combination of the highest dps, best mobility and permastealth that’s wrecking WvWvW.

Thiefs are not the most mobile.

Warriors and Elementalists are both faster. The thief however is far more evasive, because you dont know which direction the thief is running in, its very hard to chase.

nope. thieves can get 50% run speed.

As explained, even with the 50% run speed while in stealth they are still not faster than a warrior or elementalist. (which is currently 33% when you are in combat).

Leaps charges and teleports is what makes these classes the fastest. But as I said the theif can run in any direction and the people chasing have to guess which way you are going, this will result in the theif escaping more often than the warrior or elementalist. The warrior is probably overall very bad at escaping from a combat situation. However they are very good at running people down and they have the tools to slow someone down for the rest of your party.

Warriors also have some of the strongest counters to stealth spamming theives, but it does require them to run a weapon set that will get outran by a theif (notibly a 2h hammer).

Hammer Warriors are good in groups, Solo though like most warriors = dead to any Condition Build who’s not terrible at playing.

But yea, nothing will screw House stealth more then a Hammer Warrior.

In all honesty, the most success I’ve come up when fighting thieves is with my Ranger (100% pure trap build) and my Ele (AoE staff support/damage build). I basically continuously spam my AoE’s directly on top of me and HOPE the thief isn’t running a long range weapon as a backup.

This obviously isn’t the only way I’ll fight, but if this is an “effective” way to fight it says something about thieves in general.

My proposed solution after playing MY OWN thief?

A) Double the initiative cost for most/all stealth skills. This will force thieves (like me) to make a decision on “do I want to try to burn this guy down? Or do I want a secure escape route?” and not be able to skip into combat happily knowing I can do both.

and/or

B) Increase the amount of damage taken from AoE’s while in stealth by ~2×. I forget where I read it, but somewhere Anet mentioned one of the best counters to thieves would be through AoE. Even without Anet saying this it makes sense to say….. “I cant see him…hopefully AoE will get the job done.” The problem with this is thieves are at a major advantage in these scenarios. If you can’t see me? How in TYRIA are you supposed to know where to place your AoE’s? So, in order of balance, I would be completely fine if I took double or even triple damage from AoE’s while I was in stealth.

and/or

C) Apply a damage debuff that is applied every time a thief stealths in combat. In short. Every time I re-enter stealth within say, a 10 second window, I receive a debuff to my damage, that stacks in relation to the number of times I re-pop stealth. I dont even want to begin to think of how much of a debuff this would be (I would think no more than ~5% per stack) but again, as a thief I feel that something like this would REALLY make combat more interesting. This gives thieves the option to stealth out if they need to, but severely limits the effectiveness of “permastealth”

There are always going to be star-hugging, 2-spamming, heartseeker thieves who QQ every time a class revision is suggested. But I think those of us looking to steamroll someone because we’re actually more skilled, and not because the Anet is holding our hands, will enjoy a revision to Thieves and the stealth-system.

Kellnor.5428:

In all honesty, the most success I’ve come up when fighting thieves is with my Ranger (100% pure trap build) and my Ele (AoE staff support/damage build). I basically continuously spam my AoE’s directly on top of me and HOPE the thief isn’t running a long range weapon as a backup.

This obviously isn’t the only way I’ll fight, but if this is an “effective” way to fight it says something about thieves in general.

My proposed solution after playing MY OWN thief?

A) Double the initiative cost for most/all stealth skills. This will force thieves (like me) to make a decision on “do I want to try to burn this guy down? Or do I want a secure escape route?” and not be able to skip into combat happily knowing I can do both.

and/or

B) Increase the amount of damage taken from AoE’s while in stealth by ~2×. I forget where I read it, but somewhere Anet mentioned one of the best counters to thieves would be through AoE. Even without Anet saying this it makes sense to say….. “I cant see him…hopefully AoE will get the job done.” The problem with this is thieves are at a major advantage in these scenarios. If you can’t see me? How in TYRIA are you supposed to know where to place your AoE’s? So, in order of balance, I would be completely fine if I took double or even triple damage from AoE’s while I was in stealth.

and/or

C) Apply a damage debuff that is applied every time a thief stealths in combat. In short. Every time I re-enter stealth within say, a 10 second window, I receive a debuff to my damage, that stacks in relation to the number of times I re-pop stealth. I dont even want to begin to think of how much of a debuff this would be (I would think no more than ~5% per stack) but again, as a thief I feel that something like this would REALLY make combat more interesting. This gives thieves the option to stealth out if they need to, but severely limits the effectiveness of “permastealth”

There are always going to be star-hugging, 2-spamming, heartseeker thieves who QQ every time a class revision is suggested. But I think those of us looking to steamroll someone because we’re actually more skilled, and not because the Anet is holding our hands, will enjoy a revision to Thieves and the stealth-system.

Why not just nerf dagger mainhand to the ground? Then people can stfu about it and stop giving suggestions that will ruin S/D worse then D/D.

I dunno if this has been said, The only Nerf I think that is really needed is, The stealth mode finisher.

With my nerco, If I’m downed from a thief and they go into stealth, I just wait to die, I can’t do anything. Any other class I could attempt to fear away for a small chance to live.

Happyrock.5273:

I dunno if this has been said, The only Nerf I think that is really needed is, The stealth mode finisher.

With my nerco, If I’m downed from a thief and they go into stealth, I just wait to die, I can’t do anything. Any other class I could attempt to fear away for a small chance to live.

Yes. Removing Stealth finishers would be enough for me.

Bastionhawk.7120:

Happyrock.5273:

I dunno if this has been said, The only Nerf I think that is really needed is, The stealth mode finisher.

With my nerco, If I’m downed from a thief and they go into stealth, I just wait to die, I can’t do anything. Any other class I could attempt to fear away for a small chance to live.

Yes. Removing Stealth finishers would be enough for me.

If ANet go down that path, they should also remove other classes abilities to stomp like ele’s mist form stomp, warrior’s frenzy stomp, guardians stability stomp and so on.

jportell.2197:

sostronk.8167:

Jasra.3627:

i have only problem with P/D thief, they have mostly high survivability an insane stacking of bleed + still they have c&d from dagger, this is "meta"in wvw atm i think, i see more and more thiefs with this
anet forcing ppl to play thieves, when they want small scale pvp in wvw

It might be meta. But I do notice most seem to be running P/P – D/D. I run PP-DD because I find it has a better contribution overall. As a full GC you can do 12-13k damge burst off the PP and you can do it twice in a row before CD (out of initiative). Just got to be careful as reflect skills from Guardian and a few other things and you will basically instantly kill yourself as you only have 10k health. The bleed stacks are only good if they don’t have condition removal or worse condition transfer.

But there is just one thing I don’t like about this thread. Its all QQ about thiefs. But the most OP thing in the game right now is stealth and it is Veil. The amount of times Ive seen this wipe 50 player zergs just because it was landed at the right time. This contributes more to a server than any thief could ever dream to. There are alot of players who know how to deal with thiefs and its brutally obvious who they are when I am facing them. But alot of people dont. And rather than actually work out there mechanics by playing them for a period of time they just want to complain about them without knowing how they really work.

You kiddin me right? If a Mesmer does run veil the duration is not long enough for 50 people to run through and if that be the case by the time all 50 people get through it the ones that popped in it first are already coming out… Then lets talk about the kittenedly long 90 second cooldown on a freaking utility slot (genius!) and the fact that the Mesmer is then losing out on another useful utility slot… Mesmer stealth is not spammable like a thieves… By the time a Mesmer spams all their stealth skills they are SOL and have no more access to it if a Mesmer is running veil then you have roughly 90 seconds to deal with them after… And in all honesty if they were to make veil to have a X person limit… I highly doubt anyone would care… The only people trying to deflect this conversation about the highest stealth class in the game away from it are said players that play this class… And the only people that would get any ADDED BONUS from going through a veil would be thieves especially in damage…

Try telling this to T1 servers. By time organized zergs come out of veil the enemy zerg is pretty much wiped. When its not that, its portal bombing. Both Mesmer abilties. Just because your players don’t know how to use veil doesn’t mean anything.

Right now i believe it bit difficult to tell if stelth needs a nerf the main reoson that thiefs are so well with stealth is because of culling we need to see if theifs are still just as powerful once thats fixed if they are stilled overpowered increase revaled timer so that they can’t restelth themselves because i honestly play theif and know that i have 3 seconds of revealed time and i usually never see thief after he damages for even second once they attack so culling maybe the main issue. I play conditon thief so dont jump on my back about it

Xsorus.2507:

Hammer Warriors are good in groups, Solo though like most warriors = dead to any Condition Build who’s not terrible at playing.

But yea, nothing will screw House stealth more then a Hammer Warrior.

Pretty much any warrior is a nightmare to me. I won’t fight them if I can avoid it. If Im in a zerg on zerg, I try to burst them down so towards the end of the fight I don’t have to deal with a full HP warrior. GS will dunk on your Shadow refuge as will mace/shield or hammer and I can get one hit by a GS warrior. Im actually working on some gear for my warrior now (it currently has 200%+ MF build LAWL) and then I am going to go thief hunting.

Demented Lemur.7861:

Right now i believe it bit difficult to tell if stelth needs a nerf the main reoson that thiefs are so well with stealth is because of culling we need to see if theifs are still just as powerful once thats fixed if they are stilled overpowered increase revaled timer so that they can’t restelth themselves because i honestly play theif and know that i have 3 seconds of revealed time and i usually never see thief after he damages for even second once they attack so culling maybe the main issue. I play conditon thief so dont jump on my back about it

I can answer that for you. In tournaments, thieves are average at best because when they attack, they come out of stealth. There’s also less opportunity for endless kiting, but I think the main thing is that revealed debuff actually works in tournaments.

magicthighs.5372:

Stealth doesn’t need a nerf. It’s fine, even in WvW.

I understand your point there. Not everyone is good at the game and knows how to use a class mechanic to its full potential, so yea for most average thieves (are you one of them?) stealth is fine in wvw.
Oh btw i came to a conclusion. Imo the biggest problem with thieves in wvw is the presence of those stupid mobs around the map they can use c&d on. Isn’t that funny? Those mobs are just a nuisance for everyone, except for thieves ofc.
Those smart devs need to realize wvw is not pve.

Happyrock.5273:

I dunno if this has been said, The only Nerf I think that is really needed is, The stealth mode finisher.

Nope, steath finishers are fine imo. There are even stronger finishers, like the mist form one. A ranger can stomp finish every 15 secs (not counting qz here). The problem is not the steath here, the problem is a thief can steath stomp at will just cos c&d has no cd. So yea it’s not something that can be done once in a while like the mist form stomp.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Demented Lemur.7861:

Right now i believe it bit difficult to tell if stelth needs a nerf the main reoson that thiefs are so well with stealth is because of culling we need to see if theifs are still just as powerful once thats fixed if they are stilled overpowered increase revaled timer so that they can’t restelth themselves because i honestly play theif and know that i have 3 seconds of revealed time and i usually never see thief after he damages for even second once they attack so culling maybe the main issue. I play conditon thief so dont jump on my back about it

I can answer that for you. In tournaments, thieves are average at best because when they attack, they come out of stealth. There’s also less opportunity for endless kiting, but I think the main thing is that revealed debuff actually works in tournaments.

Isn’t it also so that Thieves do less damage in tournaments?

Is there less targets in tournaments, meaning TAB retargetting is more effective?

Do all players in tournament have same level and reasonable toughness so that thief cannot just burst a target down with opener alone?

One of the complaints in WvW is green arrow players getting repeatedly 1-shotted by thief and thief escaping. Sure any profession can succeed killing a lowbie, but our team would have a chance to hunt him down and kill him back. Either right after the kill or before if the enemy was discovered hovering just outside spawn point.

Stats are different in spvp but that is of course reflected both in the damage being dealt, and also mitigated. So as a whole the thief class is fine, its just a broken/buggy mechanic outside of spvp.

The problem is just how stealth works in WvW, where even upon attacking from stealth the thief takes a much longer time to load onto the screen.

Draygo.9473:

Leaps charges and teleports is what makes these classes the fastest.

Ehm, no.

Ele: RTL (1200 range in 2 seconds every 20 seconds) + Lightning Flash (600 range in 0 seconds every 45/36s). Thats 1800 range repeatable every 36s.

Compare this to thieves: Heartseeker spamable up to 5-6x in a row (5*450 range = 2200 range) + Shadow Step (1200 range in 0 seconds) + Infiltrators Arrow (900 range in o seconds).

Even at 50% initiative thieves can easily blink for 2000+ range in no time. Thats wider than any other profession. And its repeatable more often, because initiative regenerates faster than the other professions cooldown.

Chances are good that the other professions mobility skills are already on cooldown when the thief begins to flee. Thief is on a massive advantage due to initiative regeneration. As long as you have some initiative you can use all you skills. You just have to time your skills for the next few seconds whereas other profession have to time all of their rediculous long cooldowns.

In reality stealth + shadow step is mostly enough to get away far enough so that nobody will follow you. Stealth is a massive mobility boost, because your opponent doesnt know the direction you are fleeing.

Chances are good that you are not within the camera arc of you opponent when you leave stealth. Thats a massive advantage.

Fighting thieves is like gambling. Thats the reason nobody likes to fight thieves in WvW.

sostronk.8167:

Xsorus.2507:

Hammer Warriors are good in groups, Solo though like most warriors = dead to any Condition Build who’s not terrible at playing.

But yea, nothing will screw House stealth more then a Hammer Warrior.

Pretty much any warrior is a nightmare to me. I won’t fight them if I can avoid it. If Im in a zerg on zerg, I try to burst them down so towards the end of the fight I don’t have to deal with a full HP warrior. GS will dunk on your Shadow refuge as will mace/shield or hammer and I can get one hit by a GS warrior. Im actually working on some gear for my warrior now (it currently has 200%+ MF build LAWL) and then I am going to go thief hunting.

I don’t see how you remotely have trouble with Warriors..

I mean if they catch you while you’re fighting someone else, yea they’re a pain….same with glass cannon thieves really.

But they’re the most predictable class out there in terms of judging their abilities.

the ability to go INVISIBLE for any length of time in a competetive pvp game is just kitten shadow step is fine, but all stealth needs to go….which they already knew at launch.

whats funny is they wanted this game to be an esport.