Guild Wars 2

TainoFuerte.8136:

Dual.8953:

Yes. List everything that any class can do with enough skill.

Ah, the “everyone just needs skill” argument. It just so happens that those people in the woods hacking at dolyaks are thieves for lore reasons? It’s not that, for example, a random Necro caught in the middle of nowhere by 2 or 3 guys is completely fubared vs a thief who just stabs a deer and runs away?

Its not a skill argument it is a every class is not supposed to be able to do everything debate. Thieves have a function in the larger WvW arena which is to go behind enemy lines, disrupt and survive. Their skills are built around that concept. They excel at that but they are weak in all other aspects of WvW.

Take guardians as a comparison. They are built primarily as group/siege fighters making everyone around them better. Matching a guardian to a thief 1v1 isn’t a fair comparison as one clearly has extra advantages in that arena. However when building a group to fight ask me which one is better…. I’ll take the one that can drop stacks of might on everyone in the group. Also a well built guardian can manage a thief if not out right beat one if they make a mistake despite being primarily a group class. They won’t be able to catch one most likely but that is not their function and every class should not be able to perform the same functions.

“Simple. It’s a proven fact all the skilled players chose thieves, while all the noobs picked other classes”.

Roguecraft =P.

Dual.8953:

See that there is the attitude. …….. They don’t want to improve, they want free kills.

How dare you call us all thief players!!
:)

Straegen.2938:

TainoFuerte.8136:

Dual.8953:

Yes. List everything that any class can do with enough skill.

Ah, the “everyone just needs skill” argument. It just so happens that those people in the woods hacking at dolyaks are thieves for lore reasons? It’s not that, for example, a random Necro caught in the middle of nowhere by 2 or 3 guys is completely fubared vs a thief who just stabs a deer and runs away?

Its not a skill argument it is a not every class is supposed to be able to do everything debate. Thieves have a function in the larger WvW arena which is to go behind enemy lines, disrupt and survive. Their skills are built around that concept. They excel at that but they are weak in all other aspects of WvW.

Take guardians as a comparison. They are built primarily as group/siege fighters making everyone around them better. Matching a guardian to a thief 1v1 isn’t a fair comparison as one clearly has extra advantages in that arena. However when building a group to fight ask me which one is better…. I’ll take the one that can drop stacks of might on everyone in the group. Also a well built guardian can manage a thief if not out right beat one if they make a mistake despite being primarily a group class. They won’t be able to catch one mostly like but again that is not their function and every class should not be able to perform the same functions.

I’m pretty sure this is how Anet views balance in WvW. Thieves do offer a lot to a smallish group though. They are the best finishers and revivers in the game. They are very good back line disrupters (as pointed out already). They have ranged and melee flexbility with some nice blast finishers for combo fields and, of course, group stealth is cool.

They are balanced for group play.

They are not balanced on a 1vN scale at all. That should be obvious.

Dual.8953:

Dralor.3701:

Learn to fight invisible players who can reset at will is not specific advice, there is in fact no advice you can give. The only two tactics that work are stalling while you run to safety, being a full bunker spec who they can never kill or running with a mob.

See that there is the attitude. We’ve tried explaining coming tactics, weaknesses, tendancies. Other players try to ignore it or talk it down. They don’t want to improve, they want free kills.

I’m really confused. As someone who plays a thief myself, everyone else does feel like free kills (when I’m on my thief!). Its really boring when the other player can’t fight back, there is almost zero interaction.

SteepledHat.1345:

Dual.8953:

See that there is the attitude. …….. They don’t want to improve, they want free kills.

How dare you call us all thief players!!
:)

Hahaha, very clever. You know very well the context I meant.

Dralor.3701:

Dual.8953:

Dralor.3701:

Learn to fight invisible players who can reset at will is not specific advice, there is in fact no advice you can give. The only two tactics that work are stalling while you run to safety, being a full bunker spec who they can never kill or running with a mob.

See that there is the attitude. We’ve tried explaining coming tactics, weaknesses, tendancies. Other players try to ignore it or talk it down. They don’t want to improve, they want free kills.

I’m really confused. As someone who plays a thief myself, everyone else does feel like free kills (when I’m on my thief!). Its really boring when the other player can’t fight back, there is almost zero interaction.

You’re D/D right?

Dual.8953:

Dralor.3701:

Dual.8953:

Dralor.3701:

Learn to fight invisible players who can reset at will is not specific advice, there is in fact no advice you can give. The only two tactics that work are stalling while you run to safety, being a full bunker spec who they can never kill or running with a mob.

See that there is the attitude. We’ve tried explaining coming tactics, weaknesses, tendancies. Other players try to ignore it or talk it down. They don’t want to improve, they want free kills.

I’m really confused. As someone who plays a thief myself, everyone else does feel like free kills (when I’m on my thief!). Its really boring when the other player can’t fight back, there is almost zero interaction.

You’re D/D right?

Yup.

Dual.8953:

Funny because a Ranger with good Vigor and endurance recovery can be a real pain to fight for thieves. Horn 4 is good for keeping a thief marked. Same with Longbow 2. You’ve also got Cone AoEs, circle AoE traps, a lot of evades, good healing, a block counter and some other AoEs.

Lol stop there pls. The warhorn is wasted in a trap based build, same for the longbow and 2h sword (on a side note….the longbow….really? lol). You are saying other ppl don’t know the game mechanics yet you seem not to know how the ranger class works. Rangers can obviously use every skill and weapon at the same time lol.
I agree on the first part tho. Is really hard for a thief to fight a good bunker ranger, and this is not a surprise, since the bm bunker ranger is kinda op in small scale. I admit that, i know that, and i play a bunker ranger.
Can a thief kill a good bunker ranger (in wvw)? Yes he can, but it won’t be easy at all.
Can a bunker ranger kill a good thief? No way, if the thief is loosing the fight can just run away and keep himself stealthed by spamming c&d on mobs. Luckily not all thieves are that coward.

The reoson thiefs can stealth so much is culling thats the main issue if your complaining about a thief being able to stealth to much the issues probably culling once thats fixed i bet thiefs will be much easier to fight because youll be able to see them right as they come out of stealth instead of 2 to 3 seconds later right thats probably the only thing Anet is gonna do and see if makes a difference if it dosnt then sure all arguments maybe valid but when i see arguments like the thief has more stealth options avaliable to him than any other class I think to myself. that supposed to be the case considering he supposed to be a theif not brawler he supposed to be a ble to sneak around alot. But let Anet fix culling rather than saying that the thief needs a nerf

Dralor.3701:

Dual.8953:

Dralor.3701:

Dual.8953:

Dralor.3701:

Learn to fight invisible players who can reset at will is not specific advice, there is in fact no advice you can give. The only two tactics that work are stalling while you run to safety, being a full bunker spec who they can never kill or running with a mob.

See that there is the attitude. We’ve tried explaining coming tactics, weaknesses, tendancies. Other players try to ignore it or talk it down. They don’t want to improve, they want free kills.

I’m really confused. As someone who plays a thief myself, everyone else does feel like free kills (when I’m on my thief!). Its really boring when the other player can’t fight back, there is almost zero interaction.

You’re D/D right?

Yup.

No set performs on the level of D/D. Probably D/P and P/D are second. It’s no secret P/D is only good because of stealth. I use S/D. A burstless set that can daze with its stealth attack. It like P/D, uses its stealth skill often to be effective, and it’s stongest damage dealer it it’s auto-attack (same auto-attack kitten P).

I tried BS D/D the other day (training my guild mates to handle Thieves). D/D’s insane compared to other sets.

Oozo.7856:

… Thieves do offer a lot to a smallish group though. They are the best finishers and revivers in the game. They are very good back line disrupters (as pointed out already). They have ranged and melee flexbility with some nice blast finishers for combo fields and, of course, group stealth is cool.

They are balanced for group play.

They are not balanced on a 1vN scale at all. That should be obvious.

Again every class isn’t supposed to be even in every WvW scenario. That is what sPvP is for. Nobody can really balance thief stealth against an ele bunker tankiness/AoE/utility, guardian group buffs/siege, mesmer portals/haste/clones, etc.

Besides thieves simply are not particularly special even in small groups. As soon as a fight goes 3v3 or higher, AoE becomes king of the DPS. Thieves have near zero control capability, their group stealth is short effecting max 5 and requires players to stand still without attacking for seconds unlike the mesmer mass invis, no group condition management, little significant group buffs, none of the great fields, finishers are good but a warriors are better, almost no utility (stability, fear, portals, infection, mass haste, area control, clones, etc). Even rezzing thieves generally suck in groups because they don’t have the HP or stability to stand in and heal while a group is bombarding the area. They might be able to wait until the fight is over or bring someone up in the back but I will take a warriors rez ability over that any day.

Sure thieves can compliment a utility class like the bunker ele giving it the needed damage bump but other classes can fill that gap while offering more utility. Ultimately thieves are a REALLY good small skirmish class that quickly lose their usefulness in pretty much every other WvW scenario and marred by a significant engine bug and IMO power/crit stacking.

Fjandi.2516:

Dual.8953:

Funny because a Ranger with good Vigor and endurance recovery can be a real pain to fight for thieves. Horn 4 is good for keeping a thief marked. Same with Longbow 2. You’ve also got Cone AoEs, circle AoE traps, a lot of evades, good healing, a block counter and some other AoEs.

Lol stop there pls. The warhorn is wasted in a trap based build, same for the longbow and 2h sword (on a side note….the longbow….really? lol). You are saying other ppl don’t know the game mechanics yet you seem not to know how the ranger class works. Rangers can obviously use every skill and weapon at the same time lol.
I agree on the first part tho. Is really hard for a thief to fight a good bunker ranger, and this is not a surprise, since the bm bunker ranger is kinda op in small scale. I admit that, i know that, and i play a bunker ranger.
Can a thief kill a good bunker ranger (in wvw)? Yes he can, but it won’t be easy at all.
Can a bunker ranger kill a good thief? No way, if the thief is loosing the fight can just run away and keep himself stealthed by spamming c&d on mobs. Luckily not all thieves are that coward.

I wasn’t saying take all of them. Just listing possible options. Barrage was mentioned. It’s a long bow skill. Long bows have Rapid Fire too, which is a channel. Stealth doesn’t end channels.

Rework traps and other utilities that would make thieves have more options in larger fights and some utility builds. Then make stealth remove on damage. Currently stealth implementation is poor imo. It needs to be addressed but only if other builds become viable and fun.

And before anyone says it, yes I play a thief.

Dual.8953:

Dralor.3701:

Dual.8953:

Dralor.3701:

Dual.8953:

Dralor.3701:

Learn to fight invisible players who can reset at will is not specific advice, there is in fact no advice you can give. The only two tactics that work are stalling while you run to safety, being a full bunker spec who they can never kill or running with a mob.

See that there is the attitude. We’ve tried explaining coming tactics, weaknesses, tendancies. Other players try to ignore it or talk it down. They don’t want to improve, they want free kills.

I’m really confused. As someone who plays a thief myself, everyone else does feel like free kills (when I’m on my thief!). Its really boring when the other player can’t fight back, there is almost zero interaction.

You’re D/D right?

Yup.

No set performs on the level of D/D. Probably D/P and P/D are second. It’s no secret P/D is only good because of stealth. I use S/D. A burstless set that can daze with its stealth attack. It like P/D, uses its stealth skill often to be effective, and it’s stongest damage dealer it it’s auto-attack (same auto-attack kitten P).

I tried BS D/D the other day (training my guild mates to handle Thieves). D/D’s insane compared to other sets.

This is simply false.

D/D is the weakest weapon set the thief has.

This thread needs to be locked now since everyone is getting obnoxious about this

Cogadh.1845:

Rework traps and other utilities that would make thieves have more options in larger fights and some utility builds. Then make stealth remove on damage. Currently stealth implementation is poor imo. It needs to be addressed but only if other builds become viable and fun.

And before anyone says it, yes I play a thief.

Anyone who says stealth should drop on damage does not play a thief.

I did another video…

for laughs have a look at my HP ;o)

Squishy indeed

Laika.8795:

Cogadh.1845:

Rework traps and other utilities that would make thieves have more options in larger fights and some utility builds. Then make stealth remove on damage. Currently stealth implementation is poor imo. It needs to be addressed but only if other builds become viable and fun.

And before anyone says it, yes I play a thief.

Anyone who says stealth should drop on damage does not play a thief.

Played all the usual builds, played some crazy builds, tried em all. And yes, I do think dropping stealth on damage is an option. Stealth should be skill based not a blanket, press a button and then Im invisible no matter what. If people really want the class to be as skill based as the defenders make it out to be, then make stealth break on damage.

Cogadh.1845:

Stealth should be skill based not a blanket, press a button and then Im invisible no matter what. If people really want the class to be as skill based as the defenders make it out to be, then make stealth break on damage.

lol, yup, definitely doesn’t play a thief…

Laika.8795:

Cogadh.1845:

Stealth should be skill based not a blanket, press a button and then Im invisible no matter what. If people really want the class to be as skill based as the defenders make it out to be, then make stealth break on damage.

lol, yup, definitely doesn’t play a thief…

shrug dont believe me then, no skin off my nose. Just giving my opinion based on playing one

Cogadh.1845:

shrug dont believe me then, no skin off my nose. Just giving my opinion based on playing one

Which you didn’t, at least not adequately, which is why your opinion doesn’t mean a kitten thing.

I’m a little confused about all the people talking about how worthless a thief is in a large fight. I’m not a gw2 pro, haven’t played every class yet, but I’ve done a fair amount of wvw with guard, war, ele, and thief. Thief I actually leveled from level 2-80 entirely in wvw, and never had any issues staying alive or getting kills in large zergs.

When I first started playing thief, compared to guardian which I had most experience with at the time in wvw, I thought thief was terrible in zergs, but that was just because I had gotten use to playing a tanky guardian build. Once I got past the idea that my glass cannon thief couldn’t be a front line dagger fighter ikittenerg, and started playing with pistols, I had no problem being productive in zergs. The medium range burst damage of pistols, coupled with your speed and stealth is fantastic for dropping people who get a little brave and over extend, forcing someone off a piece of siege, or forcing one of their aoe casters to play defensive(if not, kill them outright). In addition, stealth stomping/ressing is always a valuable asset to any encounter, no matter the size. I find it out right comical how many thief players are on here telling other people to learn 2 play, then pushing the false claim that thiefs are useless in zergs and die easy.

With that aside, add me to the list of players who stopped playing largely in part to thieves. Its just out right stupid when a thief can dance around in a group of 8 people and drop them one at a time. I’m not complaining because a thief killed me, I’m complaining because its just ridiculous. WvW for me just ended up as either log on my OP thief, play a total tanky/bunker build so I’m not instakill for anyone else on a thief, or stick with a large zerg to prevent getting ganked by a thief, and I really hate large zergs due to culling and choppy game play when you get too many people in one spot.

So where does that leave me, bored senseless of playing the same couple builds I have that I know can at least take the opening burst of a thief and sometimes fight them to a stale mate, because let’s face it, from experience in both playing a thief and fighting plenty of them, a good thief really practically never dies in small fights, its so easy to escape on a thief. I could just log on my thief and join the thiefwars, but they are so broken at the moment in wvw, I don’t even like doing that anymore, I just feel like I’m abusing a bug every time I stealth. Or I could just stick with massive zergs, massive lag, and massive culling issues.

None of those options are as appealing to me as just not logging on and wasting my time. Its just a shame Anet implemented a single class so broken I don’t even have any motivation to level any more toons, since I’m just tired of bunker build, or hearing clink clink clink and being dead before I even see anyone. At least I have my thief leveled/geared, if I do log in again at least I know I can hop right into ez mode.

Jinks.2057:

This is simply false.

D/D is the weakest weapon set the thief has.

I imagine D/D + Shortbow is the most popularly used Thief weapons because D/D is the weakest….oh, wait. nvm

Its not complicated and it gives great returns without having to play it well.

d/p is the cheese insta-burst spec, at least you can stun break d/d.

Gildo.2643:

I’m a little confused about all the people talking about how worthless a thief is in a large fight. I’m not a gw2 pro, haven’t played every class yet, but I’ve done a fair amount of wvw with guard, war, ele, and thief. Thief I actually leveled from level 2-80 entirely in wvw, and never had any issues staying alive or getting kills in large zergs.

When I first started playing thief, compared to guardian which I had most experience with at the time in wvw, I thought thief was terrible in zergs, but that was just because I had gotten use to playing a tanky guardian build. Once I got past the idea that my glass cannon thief couldn’t be a front line dagger fighter ikittenerg, and started playing with pistols, I had no problem being productive in zergs. The medium range burst damage of pistols, coupled with your speed and stealth is fantastic for dropping people who get a little brave and over extend, forcing someone off a piece of siege, or forcing one of their aoe casters to play defensive(if not, kill them outright). In addition, stealth stomping/ressing is always a valuable asset to any encounter, no matter the size. I find it out right comical how many thief players are on here telling other people to learn 2 play, then pushing the false claim that thiefs are useless in zergs and die easy.

……

I get the impression that you mainly play WvW solo and just join up with some random zergs sometimes or maybe even frequently.

If that’s wrong and you’re actually in an elite, coordinated WvW guild, feel free to correct me. Although, I doubt one would let you level up your thief with them all the way up from level 2.

Okay, so you figured out you can stand back and pick off folks with pistols while they tangle with the zerg…and help stomp and rez. That’s pretty much something you could do with any class, just spec single target ranged and go to town. Some classes even do it a LOT better; try out the same playstyle with a rifle warrior, for example.

Folks talking about Thieves’ limitations in large scale WvW aren’t talking about being “useless and die” or glass cannon daggers on the front line, like you mention. They’re talking about the ability to create purpose build group synergy specs for highly coordinated group fighting.

Thieves work great in group skirmish situations

Not sure what part of D/D there is to stun break since its just raw damage, also fail to see how it is possibly the worst weapon set when it has the highest burst. Unless that dude was just kidding?

@Daeqar – I see where you are coming from as far as not having any dedicated team play builds. I just wanted to get out my opinion of the thief class that they are by no means weak and useless in zergs, like some people like to paint them out to be.

With that aside….even if I had some solid builds available that focused on team play on my thief…why would I want to use them? If I can already fight 1 vs group, and manage to pick off members of the opposing group solo, I don’t really need a group build, because I don’t need a group. If I happen to have a group, cool, if not, no big deal, I’m brokenly OP in wvw anyhow.

cd→steal→bs has a break opportunity before the backstab. bs→steal is immediate, large, unavoidable and is usually followed by copious heart seeking (not that thats different than anything else).

Dralor.3701:

Not sure what part of D/D there is to stun break since its just raw damage, also fail to see how it is possibly the worst weapon set when it has the highest burst. Unless that dude was just kidding?

I see D/D as crazy effective. On the direct damage end it has Backstab and Heartseeker. 2 of the most complained about skills in the game. It has Cloak and Dagger. A skill that the other two dagger offhands need to keep themselves from being UP. And if you got condition you don’t even need CnD. You’ve got Deathblossom.

Groups would carry thieves around if they did no damage at all just for the rez/stomp utility they bring.

Dralor.3701:

Not sure what part of D/D there is to stun break since its just raw damage, also fail to see how it is possibly the worst weapon set when it has the highest burst. Unless that dude was just kidding?

Because D/D has ZERO utility. Let’s go through the skills 1 by 1 and I’ll show you:

#1. Auto chain is crap compared to Sword, and terms of condition spec is fails as well. Only thing good about it is Backstab which in most cases isn’t the best stealth attack.

#2. Heartseeker is great to close gaps and as a finisher. Great leap finisher as well. The problems arise in that HS is best utilized in a D/P build. In D/D its VERY situational if you want to live for any amount of time.

#3. Waste of initiative.

#4. Waste of initiative in 90% of cases

#5. CnD nuff said.

1-3 is available to D/P while maintaining a significantly better stealth upkeep w/ Pistol OH. D/P>>>>D/D period.

Sword/Anything #1, #2, and #3 skills are far superior to D/D. The only thing dagger has is BS damage of which is prolly the most EASILY countered ability in this game.

I’d get into Pistol MH but that’s getting into condition specs (which you are focusing on BS damage specs)

The most OP’d set up on a thief right now is D/P + S/D. This puts even P/D thieves down w/out much hassle….well if the person is remotely skilled that is.

Also its quite obvious you do not play a thief. Any thief worth his salt will tell you the exact same things about the weapon sets. If all you wanna do is zergball….well it really doesn’t matter which class you pick let alone weapon set.

Xsorus.2507:

I did another video…

for laughs have a look at my HP ;o)

Squishy indeed

You joined the dark side. Too squishy. Way too squishy.

Cogadh.1845:

Played all the usual builds, played some crazy builds, tried em all. And yes, I do think dropping stealth on damage is an option. Stealth should be skill based not a blanket, press a button and then Im invisible no matter what. If people really want the class to be as skill based as the defenders make it out to be, then make stealth break on damage.

No. Sry but that’s not a good idea. It won’t make stealth skill based at all, it will just make the thief class terrible. Since you claim to be a thief player i cannot really understand how you haven’t figured it out.
A good idea someone suggested a while ago would be making c&d usable only on the back of the target. Also c&d shouldn’t activate on mobs in wvw (this includes ranger pets). Also they should remove thieves guild (“omg i suck so i call 2 npcs to help me”) and make sr an elite skill. It’s way too good to be an utility.

Eliyahu.1467:

sostronk.8167:

Eliyahu.1467:

sostronk.8167:

Thieves can’t cap points in WvW whilst in stealth either.

The ability of a class to cap points has near zero importance in WvW compared to sPvP since there’s almost always going to be someone else with you to do that job when you’re capping a point. The only reason it was removed from WvW was that perma-stealth thieves could perma-contest supply camps because you couldn’t kittening kill them. You still can’t kill them but at least you can capture the camp.

I solo cap points all the time with every class I play.

And how important was the fact you can’t cap in stealth? Not at all.

Tell me how many times you’ve defended a point solo for several minutes without killing your opponents because that’s the reason why stealth capping was nerfed.

Im not really sure what your saying, but in answer to the question, maybe 5-10 times a day.

Large purple triangles

Fjandi.2516:

A good idea someone suggested a while ago would be making c&d usable only on the back of the target. Also c&d shouldn’t activate on mobs in wvw (this includes ranger pets). Also they should remove thieves guild (“omg i suck so i call 2 npcs to help me”) and make sr an elite skill. It’s way too good to be an utility.

I would be okay with this change. It would make S/D much more viable than typical builds, considering immobilize on IS would be a good lead-in. However, it would have to do more than just damage in the case of a frontal attack. Maybe trigger a small aoe blind instead of stealthing so you don’t completely waste your initiative.

As for thieves guild, I’m not entirely sure how you think it is OP, they do very little damage and I only use them for blind/pull, and very rarely. Anyone would ditch it for SR tho, and honestly I’d prefer it as an elite anyway, so I’m all for it, room for another more practical utility.

One more suggestion that kinda grinds my gears would have to be stealth attacks and positioning… D and S need to be in melee range and from the rear to grant any benefit (worthwhile benefit, anyway.). P on the other hand can be triggered from melee to 900 range, from front back and side to side… Feel that is a little lame, and I think there should be some positional consideration to that spec.

Yeah. I don’t think any thief would complain about making SR an elite so they can free up an extra utility slot.

Laika.8795:

Fjandi.2516:

A good idea someone suggested a while ago would be making c&d usable only on the back of the target. Also c&d shouldn’t activate on mobs in wvw (this includes ranger pets). Also they should remove thieves guild (“omg i suck so i call 2 npcs to help me”) and make sr an elite skill. It’s way too good to be an utility.

I would be okay with this change. It would make S/D much more viable than typical builds, considering immobilize on IS would be a good lead-in. However, it would have to do more than just damage in the case of a frontal attack. Maybe trigger a small aoe blind instead of stealthing so you don’t completely waste your initiative.

As for thieves guild, I’m not entirely sure how you think it is OP, they do very little damage and I only use them for blind/pull, and very rarely. Anyone would ditch it for SR tho, and honestly I’d prefer it as an elite anyway, so I’m all for it, room for another more practical utility.

One more suggestion that kinda grinds my gears would have to be stealth attacks and positioning… D and S need to be in melee range and from the rear to grant any benefit (worthwhile benefit, anyway.). P on the other hand can be triggered from melee to 900 range, from front back and side to side… Feel that is a little lame, and I think there should be some positional consideration to that spec.

The issue that I really have with thieves guild is just how much more control they give the thief… one is constantly blinding you the other is constantly pulling you, add to it that they actually do have decent damage not as much as a thief but it still makes a dent and a high rate of attack it makes fighting a thief even more chaotic and troublesome…. People could say look at Mesmer phantasms… Mesmer phantasms attack more slowly than thieves guild and have absolutely no CC. And Mesmer clones while they look like the Mesmer are just shatter fodder (our only burst source) and do no real damage… The thing that thieves guild does is it gives the thief an advantage that is comparable or even better than timewarp (looking at it in 1v1 since that is what most people here keep griping bout.) If shadow refuge were made an elite (something I wish they would do with portal!) then give it a couple extra buffs aside from longer stealth… idk what that could be but right now nothing is more frustrating than having a thief in shadow refuge with no way to pull him out right then and then when thieves guild comes out you have to deal with that and still aren’t sure where the thief is…

Laika.8795:

As for thieves guild, I’m not entirely sure how you think it is OP, they do very little damage and I only use them for blind/pull, and very rarely. Anyone would ditch it for SR tho, and honestly I’d prefer it as an elite anyway, so I’m all for it, room for another more practical utility.

I don’t think it’s op at all. It simply has no reason to exist. It’s just a stupid skill. Sr would be much better as an elite skill (and the cd should be slightly increased, 90 sec would be fair) plus as you said this way you could use an utility slot for something else.

Fjandi.2516:

Laika.8795:

As for thieves guild, I’m not entirely sure how you think it is OP, they do very little damage and I only use them for blind/pull, and very rarely. Anyone would ditch it for SR tho, and honestly I’d prefer it as an elite anyway, so I’m all for it, room for another more practical utility.

I don’t think it’s op at all. It simply has no reason to exist. It’s just a stupid skill. Sr would be much better as an elite skill (and the cd should be slightly increased, 90 sec would be fair) plus as you said this way you could use an utility slot for something else.

If your talking about Shadow Refuge and putting it in the elite skill, I personally would see this as a buff to thiefs, even if the CD duration was increased. I don’t use it often enough to warrant its short CD at present and its quite well countered by alot of classes IE guardians can pull you out, Necros can fear you out, Eles can AoE you, warriors can knock you out etc etc. And yeah, Im aware im agreeing with you

Thief group play is fine, Learn to use a SB effectively and you are one best healers when a ele is around. In a orgnized guild group on voice, ele calls out droping water fields you can spam CB on it and put out some seriours AE healing. SB has the best on demand blast finisher and 100% projectile finisher there is. Plus spreading around poison field is nice group synergy. It just take a bit of practice to master the SB well but it is worth it.

Daeqar.8965:

I didn’t watch your video,

The mentality of the Thief defender. “I don’t know what they are talking about, but should defend this class anyway”.

I don’t know what the rest of your post has to do with anything – someone said Thieves can’t solo towers when they obviously can, but I like your example, because if a thief is caught in the act he can stab a guard and run, or hide and wait for the person to go away, or prep an attack. The person coming to defend has to wonder which of the everythings a thief can do in stealth is he gonna do, versus any other class where we can plainly see if they are running away or not so he can go do something useful for his server instead of being tied up by a single thief.

Straegen.2938:

Its not a skill argument it is a every class is not supposed to be able to do everything debate.

So how does “classes aren’t the same” translate into “our class should be broken and that’s fine”?

Classes can’t be different and still be balanced? You know, like all the other more sensibly designed classes? Thieves have to be special?

You can use the same bad logic to justify Warriors being unbeatable in 1v1s because hey, they’re WARRIORS! They are supposed to beat up everyone in a straight up fight, especially thieves if they are caught!! Thieves should just stealth around them, you know, ACTUAL sneaking!!!

Jinks.2057:

Dralor.3701:

Not sure what part of D/D there is to stun break since its just raw damage, also fail to see how it is possibly the worst weapon set when it has the highest burst. Unless that dude was just kidding?

Because D/D has ZERO utility. Let’s go through the skills 1 by 1 and I’ll show you:

#1. Auto chain is crap compared to Sword, and terms of condition spec is fails as well. Only thing good about it is Backstab which in most cases isn’t the best stealth attack.

#2. Heartseeker is great to close gaps and as a finisher. Great leap finisher as well. The problems arise in that HS is best utilized in a D/P build. In D/D its VERY situational if you want to live for any amount of time.

#3. Waste of initiative.

#4. Waste of initiative in 90% of cases

#5. CnD nuff said.

1-3 is available to D/P while maintaining a significantly better stealth upkeep w/ Pistol OH. D/P>>>>D/D period.

Sword/Anything #1, #2, and #3 skills are far superior to D/D. The only thing dagger has is BS damage of which is prolly the most EASILY countered ability in this game.

I’d get into Pistol MH but that’s getting into condition specs (which you are focusing on BS damage specs)

The most OP’d set up on a thief right now is D/P + S/D. This puts even P/D thieves down w/out much hassle….well if the person is remotely skilled that is.

<edit>
Also its quite obvious you do not play a thief. Any thief worth his salt will tell you the exact same things about the weapon sets. If all you wanna do is zergball….well it really doesn’t matter which class you pick let alone weapon set.

I’ve played thief tons. Not going to argue dagger has poor utility, all that matters to me is the weapon set’s burst damage. Living is no issue with escapes granted via shortbow, shadowstep and shadow refuge.

No way. Thieves are supposed to be cheap and sneaky. That us why they are called THIEVES. They are cheap, sneaky, and powerful. Everything they do is to get an advantage and disappear. It’s just the way it is.

Honestly this should not be a new concept to any MMO player. thieves are pvp classes period and if that concept annoys you I think that maybe pvp isn’t for you.

Rogue type classes have always been a bit more on the simplistic side to play, its the class the pulls in alot of the less hardcore type players. Plus Anet seems to keep giving them more stealth which makes me feel like they want them that way for some reason. Either way it doesn’t concern me much, I don’t have much problems with them on my hammer warrior. At least not to the point that I think it needs nerfed

This is a L2 kitten ue for everyone whining. I almost never lose a 1v1 fight against a thief in wvw. ( I play a mesmer ) Every class has his own tactics to defeat a thief, if you don’t what they are, then just ask a thief friend to duel you and you will find out eventually.

for example, me as a mesmer, whenever a D/D thief stealths, I just dodge, decoy = stealth for me and 2 clones up, so he wastes his backstab on my clone, or he pops out of stealth searching for the real me or I just pop my invulnerability, F4 or #2 on sword, and yet again he wastes his backstab or heartseeker spam. Or I can blink/phase retreat#2 staff, away, so he can never reach me. It mostly never comes to this since glasscannon thieves are so weak I mostly one shot them, but when I screw up my chance to one kitten him, look above, 3-3-2-mirror images-decoy-F1 with sword main hand. Even if the thief uses stealth, he will still be immobilized and I still can use all of my skills to hit him since its AoE.

When the thief uses shadow refuge, I just blast him out of it with GS #5 or pull him out with focus #4. Not a problem there.

^^^^
Stealth is not OP because when a thief stealth against me i stealth back .____.

Lol

WvW stealth needs fixed… Freaking mug needs to be grand master… I am sorry getting a 7k bonus in steal should not be in an adept tier.

I really don’t care about the damage output a Thief will do. Stealth is a feature that can trick everyone, not just your opponent; which already makes it one of the top features, the way it’s handled, it will grant you forgiveness even if you just chained 5 mistakes during a fight against 3 persons, just watch the 850 super-amazing, zerg destroying Thief videos being posted each day by people whose gameplay makes you cry of rage, a D/D Ele barely reaches that kind of prowess and requires you to play like if you were making a symphony on a piano.