Guild Wars 2

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good. Just don’t use S/D and spec for evasion.

Inventing artificial challenges like necro must facetank TA with staff and zerk gear is neither here nor there.

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good.

You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it. Make it outshine S/P.

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good.

You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.

Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.

Columba.9730:

anet specifically stated that stealth is not the primary mechanic for thieves. sorry. try again.

link? cause according to the profession description it says otherwise. I am sure someone from Anet wrote it.

Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

All that pretty much describes a thief to me. Now someone will grab one from another profession and thats all great maybe that profession isn’t at the vision of the designers but for the thief that describes it perfectly.

Look at the pages for the professions you play they all have special skills as in skills they you know “specialize in” I didn’t see thieves guild described as pets on the thief page. I don’t see clones described as minions.

Wells
These persistent, stationary spells allow necromancers to control the area around them. Well of Blood, for example, regenerates all allies within range.

Are my caltrops wells? Is my chaos storm a well it stays on the ground for a little bit right? My choking gas that a well too? Traps are wells I suppose.

oZii.2864:

Columba.9730:

anet specifically stated that stealth is not the primary mechanic for thieves. sorry. try again.

link? cause according to the profession description it says otherwise. I am sure someone from Anet wrote it.

Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

Thief characterised by:

- Stealth
- Steal ability
- Evasion

That’s already 3 different mechanics, stealth is only part of what the thief does.

Also, it says nothing about dealing damage, so thieves should not deal damage. Reduce thief damage by 80%.

So you can see that quoting the class description is pointless. It’s not a proper argument in a debate on class and ability balance.

xiv.7136:

oZii.2864:

Columba.9730:

anet specifically stated that stealth is not the primary mechanic for thieves. sorry. try again.

link? cause according to the profession description it says otherwise. I am sure someone from Anet wrote it.

Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

Thief characterised by:

- Stealth
- Steal ability
- Evasion

That’s already 3 different mechanics, stealth is only part of what the thief does.

Also, it says nothing about dealing damage, so thieves should not deal damage. Reduce thief damage by 80%.

So you can see that quoting the class description is pointless. It’s not a proper argument in a debate on class and ability balance.

Some of the highest single target damage available is in the blog post. I can grab that quote if you like.

The class description isn’t pointless at all because that is the intent of the class.

When someone sits down to design a new car you don’t think they sit down and draw up what they want they vehicle to be capable of? They don’t decide if they want it to be a 4 seater? How what luxuries it has etc. Then they go to the press to try to create the product that they envisioned.

You do that with anything it’s prior planning. That is basically the mission statement for the thief what role it is suppose to be capable of filling in the game. Builds then are made by the players usually having to revolve around those.

Doomdesire.9365:

jkctmc.8754:

Doom, I’ll take that deal. I eat Guardians for lunch on my Bunker Thief.

Sure. You versus me and my warrior friend. Anytime spvp(not on reset night). If you want wvw you will have to wait until i gear and level him.

sPvP is far, far, far different than WvW. I’m sick and tired of people bringing up sPvP in the WvW forums. I’ll wait for you to level.

A Thief does not need stealth to do well guys, seriously drop that BS. I have not, nor will I ever call for a nerf to any class, in any game. But for crying out loud, I run a bunker Thief, that only has one stealth, my heal. I do better than a Bunker Guardian, so drop the nonsense.

LOCO.1785:

xiv.7136:

Xsorus is right.

Lots of thieves in here trying too hard to defend the indefensible.

No, nerfing stealth will not destroy the thief class.

The class mechanic is steal by the way, not stealth – the same way the necro mechanic is DS and not fear.

But that’s neither here nor there.

Stealth can be nerfed just fine without invalidating thieves. Right now, it’s too strong.

The only reason thieves don’t dominate the sPVP/tPVP meta is because you can’t cap a point in stealth. In WVW this isn’t a major weakness.

Also viability in PVE? You can finish a dungeon run with 5 untraited thieves in green gear. Who the hell cares about PVE balance.

There is so much wrong with this post, I have to address it.

Thieves don’t dominate the top end tiers of sPvP, because those players are skilled and actually know how to counter stealth with ease. You won’t find any GC cookie cutter thieves running around there, because it’s a gimmick build designed to instagib noobs.

You do realize a sPvP Thief does nearly half the damage of a WvW Thief, right? Why in the hell are you guys bringing up sPvP, in the WvW forums? They nerfed sPvP so the carebears could better handle the game.

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good.

You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.

Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.

So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.

oZii.2864:

xiv.7136:

oZii.2864:

Columba.9730:

anet specifically stated that stealth is not the primary mechanic for thieves. sorry. try again.

link? cause according to the profession description it says otherwise. I am sure someone from Anet wrote it.

Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

Thief characterised by:

- Stealth
- Steal ability
- Evasion

That’s already 3 different mechanics, stealth is only part of what the thief does.

Also, it says nothing about dealing damage, so thieves should not deal damage. Reduce thief damage by 80%.

So you can see that quoting the class description is pointless. It’s not a proper argument in a debate on class and ability balance.

Some of the highest single target damage available is in the blog post. I can grab that quote if you like.

The class description isn’t pointless at all because that is the intent of the class.

When someone sits down to design a new car you don’t think they sit down and draw up what they want they vehicle to be capable of? They don’t decide if they want it to be a 4 seater? How what luxuries it has etc. Then they go to the press to try to create the product that they envisioned.

You do that with anything it’s prior planning. That is basically the mission statement for the thief what role it is suppose to be capable of filling in the game. Builds then are made by the players usually having to revolve around those.

You know you’re clutching at straws when you’re using roleplay class descriptions to support an argument about PVP class and skill balance.

It also says necromancer can cheat death, does that mean necro should have an ability to self-ress on a 3 second cooldown? Of course not.

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good.

You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.

Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.

So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.

If you don’t know about the evasive build thief, means you have literally no thief experience.

Also, PVE lol

I’m fine with stealth as it is in W3.

I run a hammer bunker warrior.

jkctmc.8754:

LOCO.1785:

xiv.7136:

Xsorus is right.

Lots of thieves in here trying too hard to defend the indefensible.

No, nerfing stealth will not destroy the thief class.

The class mechanic is steal by the way, not stealth – the same way the necro mechanic is DS and not fear.

But that’s neither here nor there.

Stealth can be nerfed just fine without invalidating thieves. Right now, it’s too strong.

The only reason thieves don’t dominate the sPVP/tPVP meta is because you can’t cap a point in stealth. In WVW this isn’t a major weakness.

Also viability in PVE? You can finish a dungeon run with 5 untraited thieves in green gear. Who the hell cares about PVE balance.

There is so much wrong with this post, I have to address it.

Thieves don’t dominate the top end tiers of sPvP, because those players are skilled and actually know how to counter stealth with ease. You won’t find any GC cookie cutter thieves running around there, because it’s a gimmick build designed to instagib noobs.

You do realize a sPvP Thief does nearly half the damage of a WvW Thief, right? Why in the hell are you guys bringing up sPvP, in the WvW forums? They nerfed sPvP so the carebears could better handle the game.

I didn’t bring it up, xiv did. I was just calling him out on his BS, which he totally ignored because he knows he’s wrong.

Just demanding nerfs, because he doesn’t know how to deal with thieves. It’s sad.

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good.

You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.

Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.

So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.

This is a glass canon build.

Slot Signet of Malice, and his health would probably never drop. I have a bunker build, and when I come up to a camp, I switch to Signet of Malice, and take the entire game with ease, solo.

Why do you have an issue with the Thief in PvE?

LOCO.1785:

jkctmc.8754:

LOCO.1785:

xiv.7136:

Xsorus is right.

Lots of thieves in here trying too hard to defend the indefensible.

No, nerfing stealth will not destroy the thief class.

The class mechanic is steal by the way, not stealth – the same way the necro mechanic is DS and not fear.

But that’s neither here nor there.

Stealth can be nerfed just fine without invalidating thieves. Right now, it’s too strong.

The only reason thieves don’t dominate the sPVP/tPVP meta is because you can’t cap a point in stealth. In WVW this isn’t a major weakness.

Also viability in PVE? You can finish a dungeon run with 5 untraited thieves in green gear. Who the hell cares about PVE balance.

There is so much wrong with this post, I have to address it.

Thieves don’t dominate the top end tiers of sPvP, because those players are skilled and actually know how to counter stealth with ease. You won’t find any GC cookie cutter thieves running around there, because it’s a gimmick build designed to instagib noobs.

You do realize a sPvP Thief does nearly half the damage of a WvW Thief, right? Why in the hell are you guys bringing up sPvP, in the WvW forums? They nerfed sPvP so the carebears could better handle the game.

I didn’t bring it up, xiv did. I was just calling him out on his BS, which he totally ignored because he knows he’s wrong.

Just demanding nerfs, because he doesn’t know how to deal with thieves. It’s sad.

As far as I knew xiv, like Xsorus are both Thieves, and Xsorus has already provided videos of him face rolling on his Thief, and feeling it is wrong. These guys are not approaching this as losing to a Thief a tired, old argument that does not help us out, but instead they’re approaching this as a Thief, and thinking what they are able to do is wrong.

If you’re having issues killing other classes and builds, I’m sure someone can help you out. Maybe these two can help you attain what they’re doing with the Thief?

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good.

You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.

Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.

So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.

If you don’t know about the evasive build thief, means you have literally no thief experience.

Also, PVE lol

Post it. You’re reluctance is showing you’re more talk then anything. And it better be able to grant all the blinds and dazes of my build as well as the team regen.

Precision/Vit/Healing Power/Magic Find
Practiced Tolerance, Critical Haste, Executioner
Shadow Protector, Shadow’s Embrace, Cloaked in Shadow
Instinctual Response
0/30/30/0/10
Sword/Dagger, Shortbow
Withdraw, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Signet of Shadows/Smoke Wall, Dagger Storm

jkctmc.8754:

As far as I knew xiv, like Xsorus are both Thieves, and Xsorus has already provided videos of him face rolling on his Thief, and feeling it is wrong. These guys are not approaching this as losing to a Thief a tired, old argument that does not help us out, but instead they’re approaching this as a Thief, and thinking what they are able to do is wrong.

If you’re having issues killing other classes and builds, I’m sure someone can help you out. Maybe these two can help you attain what they’re doing with the Thief?

Are you talking about the video of them rolling under leveled/geared terrible players?

Because there’s hundreds of those vids floating around the net for every class. Hardly a case to nerf anything.

And LOL at insinuating I’m struggling with other classes. Where did you get that idea or are you just trying to troll?

Now I remember why I loathe visiting this forum.

Anyway, I’m done for w/e. I’m off to actually enjoy the game.

jkctmc.8754:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good.

You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.

Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.

So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.

This is a glass canon build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGzvpWAjjR4

Slot Signet of Malice, and his health would probably never drop. I have a bunker build, and when I come up to a camp, I switch to Signet of Malice, and take the entire game with ease, solo.

Why do you have an issue with the Thief in PvE?

That is not Sword/Dagger.

LOCO.1785:

Are you talking about the video of them rolling under leveled/geared terrible players?

Because there’s hundreds of those vids floating around the net for every class. Hardly a case to nerf anything.

Anyway, I’m done for w/e. I’m off to actually enjoy the game.

Can you link these videos of Rangers, Engineers, and Necromancers killing, or fighting as many people as Xsorus does in his video, for that length of time, and living, and/or scoring kills?

I’d love to see them.

Dual.8953:

jkctmc.8754:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good.

You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.

Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.

So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.

This is a glass canon build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGzvpWAjjR4

Slot Signet of Malice, and his health would probably never drop. I have a bunker build, and when I come up to a camp, I switch to Signet of Malice, and take the entire game with ease, solo.

Why do you have an issue with the Thief in PvE?

That is not Sword/Dagger.

Use the tool for the job. You could easily duplicate the same thing with D/D because of the quick double attack of the Dagger auto attack. I’ll try it with S/D tomorrow, but I primarily run S/P+Shortbow for the teleports. If I remember right, Flanking Strike is actually pretty nice against tougher, single mobs like Veterans or some Champions, and Sword auto attack hits multiple targets if you position right, so I’m pretty sure it is doable with my current build.

LOCO.1785:

jkctmc.8754:

As far as I knew xiv, like Xsorus are both Thieves, and Xsorus has already provided videos of him face rolling on his Thief, and feeling it is wrong. These guys are not approaching this as losing to a Thief a tired, old argument that does not help us out, but instead they’re approaching this as a Thief, and thinking what they are able to do is wrong.

If you’re having issues killing other classes and builds, I’m sure someone can help you out. Maybe these two can help you attain what they’re doing with the Thief?

And LOL at insinuating I’m struggling with other classes. Where did you get that idea or are you just trying to troll?

Now I remember why I loathe visiting this forum.

Now you understand how you make others feel using the stupidity that they must suck at the game, if they’re complaining about Thieves, because they probably died to them?

Funny how the tide turns when your type of words are used against you. Maybe you shouldn’t visit the forums, I agree.

But provide those videos first.

jkctmc.8754:

LOCO.1785:

Are you talking about the video of them rolling under leveled/geared terrible players?

Because there’s hundreds of those vids floating around the net for every class. Hardly a case to nerf anything.

Anyway, I’m done for w/e. I’m off to actually enjoy the game.

Can you link these videos of Rangers, Engineers, and Necromancers killing, or fighting as many people as Xsorus does in his video, for that length of time, and living, and/or scoring kills?

I’d love to see them.

Find them yourself.

I have nothing to prove to you, nor do I have any interest in having another pointless discussion that will end up nowhere.

I’m going to go sink the rest of the weekend enjoying the game.

jkctmc.8754:

Dual.8953:

jkctmc.8754:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

xiv.7136:

Dual.8953:

Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.

It’s very easy btw.

You must either be new to thief or not very good.

You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.

Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.

So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.

This is a glass canon build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGzvpWAjjR4

Slot Signet of Malice, and his health would probably never drop. I have a bunker build, and when I come up to a camp, I switch to Signet of Malice, and take the entire game with ease, solo.

Why do you have an issue with the Thief in PvE?

That is not Sword/Dagger.

Use the tool for the job. You could easily duplicate the same thing with D/D because of the quick double attack of the Dagger auto attack. I’ll try it with S/D tomorrow, but I primarily run S/P+Shortbow for the teleports. If I remember right, Flanking Strike is actually pretty nice against tougher, single mobs like Veterans or some Champions, and Sword auto attack hits multiple targets if you position right, so I’m pretty sure it is doable with my current build.

Just keep in mind you are supposed to prove that S/D doesn’t need stealth to perform well, as well you need to prove it has a lot of group support without stealth.
Take a look at the build I posted. I want the something equivalent to that in group survival support.

jkctmc.8754:

As far as I knew xiv, like Xsorus are both Thieves, and Xsorus has already provided videos of him face rolling on his Thief, and feeling it is wrong. These guys are not approaching this as losing to a Thief a tired, old argument that does not help us out, but instead they’re approaching this as a Thief, and thinking what they are able to do is wrong.

If you’re having issues killing other classes and builds, I’m sure someone can help you out. Maybe these two can help you attain what they’re doing with the Thief?

Their arguments are all based on small skirmishes 1v1 scenarios, 2v2, etc. even xsorus who says he can 1v7 is trolling 1v7 he certainly isn’t killing 7 people in a 1v7.

Which me and a few other tried to point out isn’t what WvW is about. I don’t know don’t know a whole lot about guardians but I have seen guardians tank 10 people. Does that mean guardian is op cause he can tank 10 people and a engi can’t? No cause thats not how you should look at class balance.

Also claims that thieves break WvW is well silly. The problem with the people that play thieves that make claims of their OPness in actuality aren’t OP at all. Just cause you can run around trolling some people doesn’t mean your OP. If you kill someone unsuspecting or with cooldowns not up or someone that is just a bad player that doesn’t mean your OP.

Look at Xsorus video at the camp most people already picked it apart that alot of the people he downed where either upleveled or had no situational awareness. How can you claim that what you are doing is OP when you don’t know the skill level of your opponent? You don’t know what gear they are wearing? You don’t know what level they are just that they aren’t 80. You are running food buffs but they aren’t etc.

Is the sigil of bloodlust OP? If I am fighting a duel and I have 250 extra power and he isn’t running sigil of bloodlust same build same class am I more powerful than him absolutely in that context yes can he still beat me yup. 250 extra power is almost like having 2 power trait lines. Does that matter in WvW nope. In that little scenario to me and him it matters but in WvW it doesn’t thats why you can’t just balance of the scenarios presented in here.

TL&DR

There are so many factors in WvW environment that you can’t just say this class can do this but this class can’t need nerf. Everyone making statements to nerf thief pretty much all use this “If I was on my alt guardian he would have died” well if your guardian and your thief where the same class why would you need to make different class in the first place?

Example thanks for posting point proven

jkctmc.8754:

Can you link these videos of Rangers, Engineers, and Necromancers killing, or fighting as many people as Xsorus does in his video, for that length of time, and living, and/or scoring kills?

I’d love to see them.

can’t compare class vs class

oZii.2864:

Columba.9730:

anet specifically stated that stealth is not the primary mechanic for thieves. sorry. try again.

link? cause according to the profession description it says otherwise. I am sure someone from Anet wrote it.

Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

All that pretty much describes a thief to me. Now someone will grab one from another profession and thats all great maybe that profession isn’t at the vision of the designers but for the thief that describes it perfectly.

Look at the pages for the professions you play they all have special skills as in skills they you know “specialize in” I didn’t see thieves guild described as pets on the thief page. I don’t see clones described as minions.

Wells
These persistent, stationary spells allow necromancers to control the area around them. Well of Blood, for example, regenerates all allies within range.

Are my caltrops wells? Is my chaos storm a well it stays on the ground for a little bit right? My choking gas that a well too? Traps are wells I suppose.

I see more than just stealth there, lol. Nothing says stealth is the primary skill.

oZii.2864:

jkctmc.8754:

As far as I knew xiv, like Xsorus are both Thieves, and Xsorus has already provided videos of him face rolling on his Thief, and feeling it is wrong. These guys are not approaching this as losing to a Thief a tired, old argument that does not help us out, but instead they’re approaching this as a Thief, and thinking what they are able to do is wrong.

If you’re having issues killing other classes and builds, I’m sure someone can help you out. Maybe these two can help you attain what they’re doing with the Thief?

Their arguments are all based on small skirmishes 1v1 scenarios, 2v2, etc. even xsorus who says he can 1v7 is trolling 1v7 he certainly isn’t killing 7 people in a 1v7.

Which me and a few other tried to point out isn’t what WvW is about. I don’t know don’t know a whole lot about guardians but I have seen guardians tank 10 people. Does that mean guardian is op cause he can tank 10 people and a engi can’t? No cause thats not how you should look at class balance.

Also claims that thieves break WvW is well silly. The problem with the people that play thieves that make claims of their OPness in actuality aren’t OP at all. Just cause you can run around trolling some people doesn’t mean your OP. If you kill someone unsuspecting or with cooldowns not up or someone that is just a bad player that doesn’t mean your OP.

Look at Xsorus video at the camp most people already picked it apart that alot of the people he downed where either upleveled or had no situational awareness. How can you claim that what you are doing is OP when you don’t know the skill level of your opponent? You don’t know what gear they are wearing? You don’t know what level they are just that they aren’t 80. You are running food buffs but they aren’t etc.

Is the sigil of bloodlust OP? If I am fighting a duel and I have 250 extra power and he isn’t running sigil of bloodlust same build same class am I more powerful than him absolutely in that context yes can he still beat me yup. 250 extra power is almost like having 2 power trait lines. Does that matter in WvW nope. In that little scenario to me and him it matters but in WvW it doesn’t thats why you can’t just balance of the scenarios presented in here.

There are so many factors in WvW environment that you can’t just say this class can do this but this class can’t need nerf. Everyone making statements to nerf thief pretty much all use this “If I was on my alt guardian he would have died” well if your guardian and your thief where the same class why would you need to make different class in the first place?

So why not convince them the other classes they play, like in the case of Xsorus, the Ranger need buffs?

You guys are approaching this all wrong in saying a Thief can’t do this, can’t do that, needs this, needs that because it is all wrong. Find a new approach.

In every MMO I’ve played, people like you argue just like you do, and you know what? Classes get nerfed, and gutted to uselessness. I warn them every time to change thier approach, but no one listens. I’m pleading with you now to change the behavior, and lets get buffs out to classes that need it.

oZii.2864:

jkctmc.8754:

As far as I knew xiv, like Xsorus are both Thieves, and Xsorus has already provided videos of him face rolling on his Thief, and feeling it is wrong. These guys are not approaching this as losing to a Thief a tired, old argument that does not help us out, but instead they’re approaching this as a Thief, and thinking what they are able to do is wrong.

If you’re having issues killing other classes and builds, I’m sure someone can help you out. Maybe these two can help you attain what they’re doing with the Thief?

Their arguments are all based on small skirmishes 1v1 scenarios, 2v2, etc. even xsorus who says he can 1v7 is trolling 1v7 he certainly isn’t killing 7 people in a 1v7.

Which me and a few other tried to point out isn’t what WvW is about. I don’t know don’t know a whole lot about guardians but I have seen guardians tank 10 people. Does that mean guardian is op cause he can tank 10 people and a engi can’t? No cause thats not how you should look at class balance.

Also claims that thieves break WvW is well silly. The problem with the people that play thieves that make claims of their OPness in actuality aren’t OP at all. Just cause you can run around trolling some people doesn’t mean your OP. If you kill someone unsuspecting or with cooldowns not up or someone that is just a bad player that doesn’t mean your OP.

Look at Xsorus video at the camp most people already picked it apart that alot of the people he downed where either upleveled or had no situational awareness. How can you claim that what you are doing is OP when you don’t know the skill level of your opponent? You don’t know what gear they are wearing? You don’t know what level they are just that they aren’t 80. You are running food buffs but they aren’t etc.

Is the sigil of bloodlust OP? If I am fighting a duel and I have 250 extra power and he isn’t running sigil of bloodlust same build same class am I more powerful than him absolutely in that context yes can he still beat me yup. 250 extra power is almost like having 2 power trait lines. Does that matter in WvW nope. In that little scenario to me and him it matters but in WvW it doesn’t thats why you can’t just balance of the scenarios presented in here.

There are so many factors in WvW environment that you can’t just say this class can do this but this class can’t need nerf. Everyone making statements to nerf thief pretty much all use this “If I was on my alt guardian he would have died” well if your guardian and your thief where the same class why would you need to make different class in the first place?

More excuses. " we’ll they didn’t fight skills players?" I’m sorry, but that’s a weak argument.

So now 1v1 fights are excluded because in your mind, WvWvW is only about Zerg vs Zerg? Ok, lol

LOCO.1785:

Thieves don’t dominate the top end tiers of sPvP, because those players are skilled and actually know how to counter stealth with ease. You won’t find any GC cookie cutter thieves running around there, because it’s a gimmick build designed to instagib noobs.

Thieves dont dominate top end tiers of sPvP becouse they dont fit into current sole meta (controlling points, and as someone mentioned already, you cant cap in stealth). I am not a pro player and I also dont see any issue with thieves in sPvP. Yes, I got exploded by paper thieves sometimes in sPvP but that is not winning them matches by itself. They blown all cooldowns on me, they have nothing left for a while and since they are made of paper they will die from residual AoE while trying to cap/prevent cap a small circle. That is not saying that thieves are useless in sPvP but they are much easier counterable there from several reasons. In WvW however, what is the downside of being a roaming thief and instagibbing some poor sod and sending him back to the other end of huge map with repair bill to pay? He brought many friends? Oh whatever, just spam stealth and run away while looking for a softer target, nothing sort of dedicated gank squad of elementalists will catch you. You will say that that is how your class is designed and this is working as intended. I am sorry but saying “my class was made by design to own people” (becouse that is what it really means) is not a good statement for a discussion.

Thieves don’t dominate Spvp because their dps was balanced!

I don’t find the thief difficult to play at all, I don’t fear running into a group of 15 people because I know I will kill several and escape more times then I will get killed.

It just my opinion but that whole not fearing 15 people is just wrong, no class should feel safe running into a mini zerg and not only running into them but proceeding to attack and kill several.

Do i think its fun ? Of course, it makes me laugh everytime, but that does not mean it should happen. Now if it was a one time thing then sure you could chalk it up to bad players but its not a one time thing.

But whatever, this horse is pulp and your not going to convince people of the obvious.

Columba.9730:

Thieves don’t dominate Spvp because their dps was balanced!

It’s more than just that.

In an sPvP match there’s a lot less uncertainty. You know exactly how many people are on the other team and in a few moments you’ll know their group composition by heart. If the team has 3 thieves, and you see 2 in your field of vision, that means 1 is probably hiding somewhere about to gank. This makes the element of surprise much much less relevant. Almost all fights also occur inside the cap circles, everyone not on a cap circle is in transit to one, and most of the maps are composed pretty much entirely of choke points, so it’s also much easier to predict the location of everyone else, invisible or not. Want to reset a fight? Well, no cap point for you.

WvW on the other hand has no location restrictions, and you may think the 5 thieves nearby may be all you have to deal with, but in actual fact 10 more is hiding behind a pillar stacking up stealth. All organized gank teams in wvw utilize baiting tactics. The tactic is sound, and stealth as an opener is definitely a valid option in WvW, but perma-stealthing to reset fights with no drawbacks and no risk whatsoever is not acceptable. How many people had argued about the D/D ele’s fight resetting capabilities are OP? And D/D ele’s escape options are actually very easy to counter as long as you anticipate it. Stealth is on a completely different level and has no effective counters in game.

I see a lot of thieves fear that stealth will be completely gone, but even if stealth are to stay (which I support), it needs to be toned down.

Doomdesire.9365:

Xsorus.2507:

Awe.1096:

Doomdesire.9365:

I don’t think many people realize how Anet’s class system works.

If you think it’s about balance for each and every individual area, you are wrong. Each class has a strong area, and a weak area.

Thieves perform exceptionally well in 1v1 combat. Make a new character, click on thief profession. Now read the description

“They’re deadly in one-on-one combat”

Now if any of you played thief extensively(not just wvw), you will know that

A) They are powerful 1v1ist and even powerful in 1v2/3
B) They are exceptionally weak in ZergvZerg compared to pretty much every other class
C) They are exceptionally weak in PvE

^This, is the whole design between Anet’s balancing. It is NOT a like Call of Duty where everything needs to be on par. This is the whole point of professions and classes. They perform DIFFERENT abilities, and hence have DIFFERENT strengths, which is why people say nerfing stealth will destroy the thief. If you make their ability to 1v1 on par with every other class, then they are every other class minus the fact that they completely suck in PvE and zergvzerg. If all classes were even on the 1v1 front, why roll a thief? When you can roll a ele? I mean, every class is par 1v1, except eles perform better in zvz, perform better in dungeons, perform better as support. This is the purpose behind roles. Thieves are duelists, 1v1ers and solo roamers, hard to catch, sneaky and elusive, and thus pay by being weak in zergvzerg, and PvE.

If you run a necro and run into a thief in wvw with nobody around, you’re fighting an uphill battle in which if you both have equal skill and luck, he will win, but in a zerg fight, you will beat the living crap out of the enemy zerg, compared to that thief, who you just ran into, melting at the sight of AoE spam, or if he runs tanky, desperately trying to squeeze out those 1K clusterbombs and dagger storms while you run around in 50K HP plague form.

I think a lot of posters should review what professions and classes are and the roles they play in this game. This is not CoD, this is not BF3. Classes should have the advantage in the role that they were designed for.

This is all fun and games as long as every single class gets a niche where they can excel. And I mean a viable niche which is often demanded. Like a WvW/sPvP roamer for thieves, sPvP point guard for elems and guardians or PvE dungeon steamrollers for warriors. If thieves were designed to wtfpwn people in small skirmishes in PvP, what was is the design principle behind engineers or rangers for example?

Specific class roles can be fun if it works well for everyone (an example of Team Fortress 2 comes to mind). But current class “balance” in GW2 is not good and the thief issue discussion is part of the debate concerning it.

My main is an engineer becouse I liked the concept of the class. But atm it serves me as just that. A “main” which waits for better times. Meanwhile I use my warrior to run dungeons, I use my guardian to farm PvE and I am leveling more classes, cant yet decide which one will be my pick for WvW but it will be either thief for stomping “noobs” or mesmer for group utility. So far I submit to this flawed design but it does not change the fact that it is flawed.

the game isn’t really designed like the way he’s suggesting, Its an excuse used in every game that’s had stealthers

“Well, Such and Such stealther is meant to be amazing in 1v1”

Completely ignoring that my Stealth can do 1vsX and do much better then other classes as well

Is that your final argument? I guess it is. I’m the sterotypical excuse guy who makes the excuse people do in other mmos. Logic.

I’ll tell you what. I’m in the process of leveling and gearing a guardian. When I’m done, how about you, versus me and my buddy, since thieves excel at 1vX, right? So surely you should have no problem against a 1v2?

Here’s a preparation tip for you: We aren’t trash pugs.

If you want to transfer over to Devona’s or IoJ i have zero problem with you and your buddy fighting me in a 1v2

SPvP thieves are different from WvW thieves, they nerf their damage and certain specs are more limited (See Condition Thieves, where you don’t have access to Rare Veggie Pizza for example)

its why the title of my thread is Stealth in World vs World needs a nerf

It also why the very first sentence in my OP is

PVE it’s fine, even in structured it’s fine to some extent.

The fact that some Thieves in this thread want to use SPvP now and PVE now is kind hilarious when talking about WvW

Now I seen some posts on here about taking an S/D thief to TA or Orr was it?

What exactly are you wanting the S/D rogue to do..cause if you give me a specific cause I’ll try and film me killing mobs in Orr on an S/D thief without stealth..Though not really sure why that’d matter

TA would be a bit different as Tactical Strike isn’t going to make a big difference as you think in a Dungeon.

By the way, I’m currently recording video for my Next video.

They only reason I didn’t wait on the video i had early was because its 8 minutes long, and I can only do 15 minute videos…

If i get any more long video like that though i’ll make separate videos of it.

Columba.9730:

So now 1v1 fights are excluded because in your mind, WvWvW is only about Zerg vs Zerg? Ok, lol

Yes they are excluded the fact that you don’t understand that doesn’t surprise me at all.
If you really think WvW should be balanced around 1v1 matchups then there is no hope for you lol.

Explain to me how you balance WvW around a 1v1 fight? Does that even make sense? There is no rules to govern there is no ring outs, there are boundaries etc.

You can run into a fight on bridge but there is nothing to stop that person from turning around and running away. Heck if you see someone you want to kill why cant he just break combat and wp back to spawn rofl.

oZii.2864:

Columba.9730:

So now 1v1 fights are excluded because in your mind, WvWvW is only about Zerg vs Zerg? Ok, lol

Yes they are excluded the fact that you don’t understand that doesn’t surprise me at all.
If you really think WvW should be balanced around 1v1 matchups then there is no hope for you lol.

Explain to me how you balance WvW around a 1v1 fight? Does that even make sense? There is no rules to govern there is no ring outs, there are boundaries etc.

You can run into a fight on bridge but there is nothing to stop that person from turning around and running away. Heck if you see someone you want to kill why cant he just break combat and wp back to spawn rofl.

Ozii is right about this, you’ll never get 1v1 Balance in a PvP game…

Some specs work better against other specs…Now sometimes you’ll have glaring issues where certain classes just obliterate others and nothing can be done (see Bright Wizards in Warhammer Online for an example)

In this game for an example, D/P Thieves absolutely take a dump on P/D thieves and really little you can do about it.

However the Stealth issue isn’t apart of the 1v1 Class Balance Issue.

the Stealth issue is the Risk vs Reward aspect of it, where…There is no Risk, and a crap ton of reward for having Stealth.

All this has become is prophecy seeking. All patch notes since release I haven’t seen one change to stealth these threads pop up all the time and still no change.

You just have 2 camps those that think it needs a nerf and those that say its fine. Those that want a nerf are the ones hoping that it happens. The ones that say its fine are the ones that understand why it hasn’t changed are stating the reasons why Anet hasn’t changed anything. As patch after patch has shown the developers have no problem with how the thief plays when it comes to stealth mechanics. So enjoy the circle jerk.

Make sure you keep this bumped cause it might get buried tomorrow by the matchup threads. I see someone rezzed this from page 2 already.

Stealth nerf should be: “stealth should be broken if player do any offensive ability (including basic attack, but excluding trap), miss or hit. Stealth should be broken after that offensive ability resolved (end of ability).”. This will make any player who use stealth play carefully and strategically.

i’d like to quote a fellow player.

Login.5102:

I don’t main a thief, I find guards, eles, and messers much more powerful than thiefs when played by good players.

Thiefs excel at killing baddies. Baddies excel at crying on forums.

deviller.9135:

Stealth nerf should be: “stealth should be broken if player do any offensive ability (including basic attack, but excluding trap), miss or hit. Stealth should be broken after that offensive ability resolved (end of ability).”. This will make any player who use stealth play carefully and strategically.

I think stealth is fine as it is on block/miss/evade and so on… No damage = no broken stealth.
It should be broken when using caltrops or poison fields … Damage = broken stealth.
That I must admit is OP now … you can build up stealth and keep spamming caltrops stacking AoE beeding, definetly not fair.

Daendur.2357:

deviller.9135:

Stealth nerf should be: “stealth should be broken if player do any offensive ability (including basic attack, but excluding trap), miss or hit. Stealth should be broken after that offensive ability resolved (end of ability).”. This will make any player who use stealth play carefully and strategically.

I think stealth is fine as it is on block/miss/evade and so on… No damage = no broken stealth.
It should be broken when using caltrops or poison fields … Damage = broken stealth.
That I must admit is OP now … you can build up stealth and keep spamming caltrops stacking AoE beeding, definetly not fair.

Caltrops is a trick, poison fields is a an offesive ability. It should broke stealth although its not giving damage (in proposed nerf).

No damage = no broken stealth. This one which makes stealth an OP ability (especially thief).

your proposed nerf is out of the line and will destroy the class…

Stealth is godmode for good players. It needs a nerf whether or not people want to admit it. It is not a l2p issue.

Narcissus.1058:

Dude, I am not talking about any change, I am talking about a big enough change to satisfy everyone, which will screw over thieves

Don’t touch the debuff… Let the amount of time in stealth remain the same… But for the love of god they need to remove some of the perks of stealth… Thieves can get regen/condi removal/speed buff/ability to blind when stealthing… All revolving around stealth…Its kind of like how the devs said that ele’s bunker build as a whole wasn’t extremely OP but the little things that all added up is what killed it. Now I know that thieves can’t get all these perks in one build but I know that they can get quite a few still… I know that to be 100% crit from stealth requires 30pts into a trait line.. But I also know that aside from that they can spend the other 40 where they please… I just want some of the perks of stealth to be addressed while still not killing the class as a whole… And seriously Mug needs to be moved up at least one tier…

Stiv.1820:

jportell.2197:

Apparently the izerker has suffered a damage ninja nerf in this patch.

All clones/phants are bugged in WvW right now, none have weapons. They run up to stuff and smack them with their fists. I think it’s actually calculating their damage with no weapon equiped :/ It’s also not doing a whirl finisher. Pretty sure this is a bug and not a nerf.

I freaking hope so… This is a huge issue that has the potential to kill half the builds in the Mesmer class…

Sifu.6527:

jportell.2197:

IF you are a mesmer beating a P/D thief please give me tips because these guys stack so many bleeds…. And mesmers condi removal sucks… Worse than a warrior. :/ But if the march fix is going to permanently solve culling lets see what happens there… But if the thief complaints still continue then it means that the devs need to take a much harder look at stealth and all the perks that a thief gets with stealth.. I know it is the mechanic of the class. But i don’t think any class can get as high damage buffs/boons/defensive options rolled into one with their class mechanics.

There is always a counter.

Here’s a start.

Rune of Melandru + Veggie Pizza will kitten their DPS so badly. Reducing their 7 sec bleed tick to just 2 sec. Congratz, you just reduce their DPS by 60-75%.

Running runes of melandru.. but you were way off about veggie pizza. Lemongrass poultry soup is the good stuff for dealing with conditions… But there are still other classes (not Mesmer) that have huge issues with thieves.

The Health Regen+Regen boon itself when you go stealth is what allows some of the more powerful builds to be a little over the top.

But yes, Stealth currently has to many advantages and zero disadvantages.

Xsorus.2507:

the game isn’t really designed like the way he’s suggesting, Its an excuse used in every game that’s had stealthers

“Well, Such and Such stealther is meant to be amazing in 1v1”

Completely ignoring that my Stealth can do 1vsX and do much better then other classes as well

Actually the game this is templated after, Dark Age of Camelot, did just that. Stealth in that game quite literally had next to no escapes, tiny ranged damage, and no aoe ability. Also low mobility and though could perma stealth they could not stealth in combat and damage popped them.

Thieves in this game are capable of everything.