Guild Wars 2

I agree stealth is too powerful in its current state. Some reasonable changes would be

A) Makes stealth break on damage as you said

or

B) Make numbers show up when hitting a stealthed player, so if we’re swinging blindly at least we know if we hit the stealthed player

and finally optimize game rendering because in its current state, becoming visible has a lag, thus prolonging the duration of the stealth ability.

Stiv.1820:

This thread is so full of misinformation and hyperbole.

Stealth needs to break on damage? Do you have any idea how profession breaking that is? Stealth lasts 3-4 seconds or 12-16 seconds (if you chain abilities) in pretty much one spot that is indicated via little house. All the while any roots stay on and damage still applies like normal.

If they are “in stealth 95% of the time” they are doing maybe 300dps chaining Cloak and Dagger and that’s if they are hitting the same person over and over. Basically no damage. All they are doing is being annoying and can still be knocked down, rooted, AoE’d or otherwise disabled.

If a Thief actually attacks from stealth they can’t go back in stealth for 3 seconds. Plenty of time to be locked down.

I know all this because I play a Thief. Whenever I fight other thieves I have zero problems with stealth. Why? Because I understand how it works. I know that when they stealth, you can still spam your auto attack key in the direction they were in. If you hit them, you will see a little flash of blood and sometimes condition damage numbers. You can use this and predict where they are going and continue to attack them with normal attacks or AoE.

Every time when they come out, keep attacking and snare/root when available. They can only stealth over and over and over if they hit something so kite them. Keep pets off them. Save a big AoE for the instant they use Shadow Refuge (the house).

I am constantly taking on 3-4 players at once with my condition thief because most WvW players are like you guys in this thread. It’s shocking to me when I run into competent players and I’m locked down and dead in seconds. Use your brains, it will help.

I don’t have a problem with anything you said here. Despite what someone else replied, in WvW it is possible to prevent an objective circle from flipping while stealthed. It may be an exploit, but I and the group I was running with saw it happen 3 times in 2 days. Despite the previous trolls, I am a competent player who understands game mechanics.

Unfortunately WvW has much bigger problems right now.

I’m not surprised to see that most of the name calling in this topic comes from Thief players worried about their favourite profession’s most imbalanced mechanic being nerfed.

Vexus.5423:

Counters To Stealth Thief

None of those is a counter.

1. Moa when you can target him for a second, even if he is not rendering, the ability will still hit

If you can target him, he’s not under stealth. This isn’t a counter.

2. AOE knockdown or knockback

Irrelevant, since any half decent thief isn’t going to use stealth and remain still in place with a sign saying “I am here” so you can AoE him.

3. Use a mace instead of a greatsword, you bandwagon tools

Completely irrelevant. For a Guardian, using a greatsword would actually be more useful than a mace against a thief.

4. Use AOE damage abilities – yes it hurts just as hard when stealthed as when unstealthed

Again, irrelevant – the thief is not going to stand still where he was when he used stealth.

5. Talk with your teammates over voice comms and plan a burst attack the moment he’s targetable (oh wait, you’re not on voice, you’re unorganized and crying about dying to an organized group?)

I wonder, has anyone here complained about dying to an organized group? And regardless, this so called counter is irrelevant – the thief would simply be gone instead of staying to fight an organized group.

6. Get any kind of immobilize/stun which you should already have anyway

Those don’t work if you don’t have a target.

7. Dagger Storm? Run in and melee the slow-moving spinning free target who is not dodging for 8 seconds

The title of this topic isn’t “Dagger Storm is bad due to a lack of counters”.

8. AOE fear -> Immobilize -> Burst the Thief

Same as “counters” 2 and 4, fails for the same reason.

9. Walk backwards while autoattacking (the bare minimum effort you need to do)

Making a thief laugh isn’t going to defeat it.

10. Cast any sort of invisibility/stealth on your teammates and surprise the Thief who now has no target with 5 people jumping him from stealth, reversing the role

So if you can’t fight them…

There is no counter to stealth in the game. This makes stealth different from all other mechanics seen in GW2. As such, it needs a counter. Making stealth break on damage may be too little, considering how it would still keep stealth very powerful, but it would at least add a decent counter.

I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing damage numbers when you hit a stealthed person, but damage removing stealth is complete overkill. Why? Because abilities do not lose target when someone enters stealth. Any skill cast right before the enemy stealths will still follow the theif through stealth, damage them and break stealth. Even if the enemy dodges that skill, channeled abilities would make stealth completely obsolete, as the enemy cannot dodge every part of the skill continuously.

It’s this topic again, while you guys are at it, I would also like a counter for 1200 ranged weapon while I stand still and swing my swords, or better yet, give me a counter for a 30 man Zerg in WvW so I can face roll them solo and be totally 1337!!11!

So you basically want to make Thiefs pointless?

There is so much fail in this thread. I love the guy with the 80 warrior, 80 Elementalist and 80 engineer, nice try sunshine I know how all three of those classes can counter me but I’ll never tell If we told you every counter to our abilities we would be useless, Thieves are good because we keep these hidden treasures a secret. We know our weaknesses which is why you never see Thieves complaining about thieves

Elthurien.8356:

which is why you never see Thieves complaining about thieves

That or you can cloak and run away if one jumps you.

Something the majority of classes cannot do.

Supersun.4603:

Elthurien.8356:

which is why you never see Thieves complaining about thieves

That or you can cloak and run away if one jumps you.

Something the majority of classes cannot do.

And there are many other things other classes can do that we cannot.

Dear op
i am a thief and i can tell u that many classes can do different things .. that’s just what a thief does and the mechanic itself isnt hard to counter , doing dmg to break it will make stealth useless , if u played this game enough and prefferebly with all classes (spvp) , you should know that all classes have aoe spells on way or another or bleed.

countering stealth is pretty simple and that’s what any player with enough experience in the game would know , you dont see me complaining that a ranger can start dpsing me from 1500 range right ?, some classes are more melee orianted and some are range
dont feel so helpless about it , just move around and use your head .

not every thing needs a nerf, unless u a noob who just started playing u should have figured out a way to counter it, your suggestion anyway would make this class irrelevant and without any real measure of offense or defense, even tough some thieves dont even use stealth at all

Thieves are that because they can get away. “A good thief doesn’t get caught.” If you don’t think they should be able to get away, to use stealth effectively, then what makes a thief? The fact that they have one skill called “Steal?”

If you nerf the thief’s stealth rather than fix the rendering issues. You’ll be left with a useless squishy predominantly melee profession.

Thieves that can stay stealthed for long periods of time aren’t speced for damage. Just because you heard a thief killed a guy in 3 skills, and another one stayed stealthed and prevented a point capture doesn’t mean it’s the same thief doing these things.

To do very high damage you have to spec for damage builds, which is almost devoid of anything benefiting stealth. (Save for “Hidden Killer” which can give you a glass cannon backstab build If you want a stealthy build then you’ll need to spec more defensively

Thieves are strongest as a hit and run class. Maybe you think the only classes should be kiting or brawling with heavy armor, but this is a different class. As a thief your biggest weakness is Immoblize given that only 2 skills cure immobilize. One is a healing skill that doesn’t grant stealth. And the other, Roll for Initiative, has a 60 second cooldown.

If you don’t like that there’s a class that can get away quick and sneak up on you, then idk? Too bad I guess, that’s how the game is designed and the abilities are there. The rendering is an issue but that doesn’t mean stealth is a problem. If the 3 cores are Damage, Support, and Control, then the Thief’s biggest weakness is not damage classes, but control ones.

Supersun.4603:

Elthurien.8356:

which is why you never see Thieves complaining about thieves

That or you can cloak and run away if one jumps you.

Something the majority of classes cannot do.

Sorry champ I use sword & pistol and pop black powder and caltrops when I see one go into stealth. Try again

You guys are describing cloak and dagger like its a skill that hits so easily with high damage, i would like to see you go play one and try it. That skill is hard to hit as long as you move around. A nerf on Stealth has already been implemented (3 seconds visibility unable to stealth after attack). Just pointing out, if you have no skills to play and only knows how to whine, then i believe this game isn’t for you.

One of the problem descriped here in this thread is the fact that, unlike sPvP points, WvW capture points do count stealthed players in.

So if a single stealthed enemy enters a capture circle, they prevent the capture process.
Now we had 2 thiefs running a perma stealth duo. With heal while stealthed, and condition removal while stealthed.
Both with smoke combo fiels and shortbow for blast finisher.

They were perm invisible, while preventing the capture. And spamming AoE on a supply camp capture point isn’t a viable counter, as those points are huge, and both thiefs can run through it freely.

lots of QQ. I play both a Warrior and a Thief and both of them can be great… My warrior can self stack 22 stack of might while having 35% chance to crit and still sport 1.9k toughness and 27k hps….

A dps stealther sports almost no toughness, 14-15k hps… Stealth tries to make up for the rest and you CAN smack the crap out of them while they are stealthed.

We going to start QQing about mesmers being able to confuse you next? I wish more people would put in the effort to learn how to play the game instead of come here and cry about something.

Now Varnoth brings up a real issue, I think they should change the way that works. Whoever has the most people in the point should start taking it after killing the NPC.

I think that stealth is okay. They have stealth as a temporary ability, which is MUCH better than the permanent until revealed ability most other games have had.

Temporary stealth is perfectly fine. It’s just that, with the current problems of rendering, it is a very powerful skill.

Don’t touch stealth skills at all right now. If a thief is bouncing in and out of stealth constantly, then he’s doing what he should be doing.

Fix the rendering issue; don’t nerf the stealth skill.

Anwedie.2360:

Scourge.2173:

Anonymity.3602:

If he hits you once you can see him for a minimum of 4 seconds.

That is of course if the game decides to render the Thief before they re-stealth

Taking 17k damage before the thief becomes visible is just stupid. It’s almost as bad as the culling system. I don’t mind having unique mechanics, but every ability should have a hard-counter if you want to use utility slots up for it.

Nothing like seeing “Unknown Server xxxx player” spam in combat log. By the time they fuller render, the fight is already tilted heavily in their favor. This is more of an Arenanet problem, than a stealth problem though.

It s a bug, haste doesn t break stealth , and can u you attack without breaking stealth

Tyaen.5148:

Stiv.1820:

This thread is so full of misinformation and hyperbole.

Stealth needs to break on damage? Do you have any idea how profession breaking that is? Stealth lasts 3-4 seconds or 12-16 seconds (if you chain abilities) in pretty much one spot that is indicated via little house. All the while any roots stay on and damage still applies like normal.

If they are “in stealth 95% of the time” they are doing maybe 300dps chaining Cloak and Dagger and that’s if they are hitting the same person over and over. Basically no damage. All they are doing is being annoying and can still be knocked down, rooted, AoE’d or otherwise disabled.

If a Thief actually attacks from stealth they can’t go back in stealth for 3 seconds. Plenty of time to be locked down.

I know all this because I play a Thief. Whenever I fight other thieves I have zero problems with stealth. Why? Because I understand how it works. I know that when they stealth, you can still spam your auto attack key in the direction they were in. If you hit them, you will see a little flash of blood and sometimes condition damage numbers. You can use this and predict where they are going and continue to attack them with normal attacks or AoE.

Every time when they come out, keep attacking and snare/root when available. They can only stealth over and over and over if they hit something so kite them. Keep pets off them. Save a big AoE for the instant they use Shadow Refuge (the house).

I am constantly taking on 3-4 players at once with my condition thief because most WvW players are like you guys in this thread. It’s shocking to me when I run into competent players and I’m locked down and dead in seconds. Use your brains, it will help.

I don’t have a problem with anything you said here. Despite what someone else replied, in WvW it is possible to prevent an objective circle from flipping while stealthed. It may be an exploit, but I and the group I was running with saw it happen 3 times in 2 days. Despite the previous trolls, I am a competent player who understands game mechanics.

Unfortunately WvW has much bigger problems right now.

I agree preventing a cap in stealth is a pretty annoying thing and should be fixed. There are many ways Anet could do it without changing the base mechanic of a profession.

Also the rendering/culling issue that people talk about once fixed will help a little but not much. It’s greatly exaggerated on these forms. In reality if you are not in some huge zerg vs zerg situation the Thief will phase into view as they are attacking from stealth. Pistols it’s about 3/4 the way through the unloading animation. Daggers, it’s after you see your health plummet and hear the CLINK CLINK of your butt being hurt.

Vs a ranged opener, you can still hear and see the muzzle shots and even target/hit them, you just can’t see the model yet. You can dodge or do whatever. Vs a backstab type build it hardly matters that you cannot see them for that second. You need to use a self based defensive cool down to survive. I personally use AoE blind and/or a teleport to avoid death by Glass Cannon thieves. Unless i’m otherwise distracted or have both cooldowns used, their 12K hp just melts away in seconds.

One thing that could really help is a keybind to “target last attacker”. DAOC had that and it was very useful for finding people attacking you. Perhaps Anet could add that as well since people who are phasing in can technically be targeted just not seen.

You AOE kitten.

Learn to predict movement like every other player has to.

Hell, if a thief stealths on me, I pop blossom and then dagger storm immediately.

If he is at full health, you RUN.

Its just like every other move in the game. You have counters, but if they are too difficult for you personally to pull off, then you go and cry on forums about a move that stealths a person you can most likely one shot for 3-6 seconds, even though you can still physically effect them with aoe damage and all other damage while they are still in stealth.

Learn to play.

Really? People are actually suggesting that any damage should break stealth? That is quite literally the same as “hey, can we break this element of the game and remove it entirely, please? Oh, and delete the Thief profession, too.”

There are PLENTY of options to counter stealth. Hell, I pop a Shadow Refuge and smart enemy players will pop all their AoE within the Refuge to continue damaging me. If I stealth a considerable distance away, some smart players will pop some PB CC skills after a short delay or attack by prediction of movement after I’ve vanished (a few warriors have landed some amazingly accurate GS swings right through where I was running). Some will make it extremely awkward for me to backstab by erratically moving around and making themselves a difficult target. Some will pop Vigor and keep dodging around until I’ve re-appeared. Some will watch their channelling skills to see where I’ve gone (yes, channelling skills still track us in stealth). Also remember that as soon as I’ve done any action and broken stealth from it, I can’t re-enter it for another few seconds. You have many different windows of opportunity to damage me. I’m not exactly a tank. I play smart, so you play smart.

If you can’t adapt to fight someone with stealth, then that’s your fault and yours alone.

I play Elementalist for the most part in WvW. Thief’s Shadowstep and Backstab is my main PITA as you’re on half health before the encounters even really started. Heartseeker, Pistol Whip, and Spin2Win builds much more manageable (unless they haven’t rendered because good luck evading those).

Hell, I pop a Shadow Refuge and smart enemy players will pop all their AoE within the Refuge to continue damaging me.

Funny thing about that skill is that given all the rending issues it actually makes the opponents more “visible”. There’s nothing like spamming aoes into shadows refuge and picking off low HP thieves that I can’t see regardless of the situation.

P.S. If someone goes invis on you make sure you spam your number 1 attack if nothing else. It often hits.

Damage should break stealth and any form of continuous damage should prevent stealth.

moirweyn.9872:

Damage should break stealth and any form of continuous damage should prevent stealth.

I’d agree if stealth was a toggle that was permanent. It’s not, do you even know that? I really hope the random Anet people who read these threads just call their friends over to laugh at posters like you.

moirweyn.9872:

Damage should break stealth and any form of continuous damage should prevent stealth.

So you think that at 10k health, you should take away the only defense thieves have other than close range blind.

So that means that all guardian bubbles, mesmer bubbles, warrior regens, heals and knockbacks all have to go too.

Anet gave thieves stealth for a reason. We get one shot, that’s why. If stealth broke on damage, all anyone would have to do is Aoe or dot us and we would ALWAYS be out of stealth. it would be comepletely useless in any form of pvp. They already gave us the revealed debuff isn’t it enough?

Sop cry pls, l2play.

Stealth combined with current rendering issues are problematic.

I’ve had theives that didn’t even render until around 10 seconds after the inital strike.

And the rendering issue is the thief profession’s fault, I got you.

rook.4625:

And the rendering issue is the thief profession’s fault, I got you.

I didn’t say that.

The fact is —-- dagger storm can’t be immobilized. DS will give stability which is anti-immobilization.
Every time I saw a thief using dagger storm I put a spike trap on him (which immobilizes target) , although the trap can be activated, but the thief can run through it and not immobilized at all.

spif.7580:

Thenoob.1480:

Cripple: walk slower than your enemy
Stability: you can’t be crippled
Gee I wonder why no one goes up and hits the guy.

Immobilize Immobilize Immobilize

When I see a thief run into my team with daggerstorm, I swap to Sword and Infitrators (Immobilize) and just auto attack chain him. If he doesn’t cancel daggerstorm he will die.

defrule.7236:

rook.4625:

And the rendering issue is the thief profession’s fault, I got you.

I didn’t say that.

But you are implying they punish thieves permanently for an unrelated temporary issue that appears worse because we also have stealth.

Great job.

I didn’t mention anything about punishing, I only said it was problematic and gave an example of it.

You are reading something that isn’t there mate.

MajorKong.8095:

Funny thing about that skill is that given all the rending issues it actually makes the opponents more “visible”. There’s nothing like spamming aoes into shadows refuge and picking off low HP thieves that I can’t see regardless of the situation.

Exactly. There is always a counter. If you stand around like a lemon when stealth is popped, your death is your own fault. Likewise, if you just wait for someone to leave a Refuge without taking action, your disadvantage at that point is your own fault. If you don’t keep your eyes open, ordinary stealth or refuge stealth, your death is your own fault.

I often go one step ahead and stealth with HiS and pop a refuge somewhere else. With a second extra stealth time, this means that I can usually get behind an opponent while he attacks in what he thinks is a “free kill” circle. I’ve been tricked in this way by other classes eg. eles switching attunement at crucial moments and throwing me off.

It’s called tactics. 95% of people don’t seem to understand that concept.

defrule.7236:

I didn’t mention anything about punishing, I only said it was problematic and gave an example of it.

You are reading something that isn’t there mate.

You are in a thread called Stealth is bad, not rendering issues are bad. I read just fine.

Toble.2968:

defrule.7236:

I didn’t mention anything about punishing, I only said it was problematic and gave an example of it.

You are reading something that isn’t there mate.

You are in a thread called Stealth is bad, not rendering issues are bad. I read just fine.

Fair enough, just don’t put words in my mouth next time.

I have no more words for you.

defrule.7236:

Toble.2968:

defrule.7236:

I didn’t mention anything about punishing, I only said it was problematic and gave an example of it.

You are reading something that isn’t there mate.

You are in a thread called Stealth is bad, not rendering issues are bad. I read just fine.

Fair enough, just don’t put words in my mouth next time.

I have no more words for you.

Good. No one wants to hear people whining about thieves all the time because people can’t play their class right.

zerospin.8604:

Let’s just clear one thing. No class should be able to stand in middle of 3+ enemy players, with other enemies nearby, be able to attack them at will, kill some, and then easily escape. NO CLASS.

Not true. A skilled player should be able to do this with any class when playing against non-skilled players. That’s the way it currently is.

zerospin.8604:

Thief can do it. I saw it today and on numerous other occasions in WvW. There was even another thief on our side, and he too couldn’t catch the other thief. This is the very definition of OP. I do not care how skillful he was and how bad we reacted, most classes can NEVER hope to do what he did and survive.

The only other class that could do this would be a Mesmer, but we know they need a nerf as well. Instant creation of infinite clones (pets) that on top of that deal damage is OP in PvP.

I’ve seen Guardian, Necro, Mesmer, and Engineer do this. Just because you can’t seem to deal with it doesn’t mean it needs a nerf. I’ve been killed by all classes and Thieves can be deadly if they catch you off-guard but it’s really all about knowing when to dodge, when to interrupt, when to knockdown, and when to hit them hard.

It’s not easy to kill any good player of any class. Try to improve your game play and skill level instead of just spouting off rage in the forums. You will end up nerfing every class in the game before you are done.

Also, Mesmer doesn’t need any nerf besides Moa. They are a good class based on deception and misinformation and you want to remove that to make it easier for you to find them? What class do you play? Maybe you should go on that forum and ask how to deal with these things instead of running around crying “nerf”.

zerospin.8604:

Of course it might be that the thief in question was aided by the culling issue, but still, I saw many thieves vanishing and never appearing again, even though ally players spread out and there are plains all around.

Either break stealth on taking damage, or break it on dealing damage, or give every class an ability to reveal stealthed objects. A counter must exist.

It does break on dealing damage. If you are taking damage and not seeing the Thief, that is the culling issue. A thief cannot deal damage while invisible unless he bleeds or poisons them before vanishing.

As for a long vanish, it was probably this skill: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Refuge

You have to stand still for a bit or it doesn’t last long and it has a different casting animation than the other skills. Maybe you should just learn what a Thief can actually do?

While I agree stealth is OP in its current implementation, the worst part about stealth is player culling. I often get thieves attacking me while invis for several seconds before they actually appear on screen and by the time they appear they just stealth again. Player culling is destroying this game.

fishergrip.4082:

While I agree stealth is OP in its current implementation, the worst part about stealth is player culling. I often get thieves attacking me while invis for several seconds before they actually appear on screen and by the time they appear they just stealth again. Player culling is destroying this game.

Dude. That is not our faults though. What is with all you people sitting there talking about taking away stealth due to current rendering issues?

GET OVER IT.

When it is fixed you will be crying just as much about stealth still because you simply can’t handle adapting to a class that is invisible.

When I have the rendering issues as a thief fighting other thieves who are invisible for entire fights, I STILL KILL THEM.

Why? Because I notice movement and the moves they use. Try looking at your combat log once in a while. If I can do it at 10k health getting half shot/ one shot by other thieves that I can’t see either, so can you.

Other people ALSO DO THIS. I see it every day.

I must admit the quality of people I play with is higher than that of a first time gamer, but the only time we ever complain about the rendering issue is when it is a whole HORDE of invisible people, to which you can’t defend against if you unknowingly run into the midst of them. Even then sometimes the invisible horde is killed due to massive amounts of random aoes and tab targeting at it’s best.

As for one on one and small group? Not a problem. Learn to play aggressively enough and you will learn how all classes move depending on whether they are good or bad and depending on their build.

I say once again. l2play.

I’m not saying its your fault, but stealth is broken right now due to the loading issues.

Good job beating another rogue. You both had the advantage of the same bug so you were on even footing.

Stealth isn’t really a big issue with thieves; the ability to jump in and out of large enemy groups as a solo player is more concerning – if only because other classes can’t do the same thing without getting stomped.

I’ve read most of these posts, and chances are the people who are complaining about the class itself aren’t re-reading anything anyone is posting it the classes defense.

I want to be clear about thieves vs other classes. If you’re a clothy IE not meant to take damage but dish out strong damage and you’re dying before you get a chance…it kind of makes sense because that’s what a thief is suppose to do. Burst down the long range bursty classes….that’s their point. To those who are in WvW taking down 4-5 people, gear does play a factor as it’s meant for big damage.

While there is a rendering issue, please notice the counter classes and then notice the counter players. If I get hit and lose half my life I’m evading asap. Most guardians and warriors can trump thieves because they’re meant to roll in, take damage and dish out as much as possible, keep in mind they’re suppose to be in a group as well and in that group there should be some knowing about what people can and can’t do.

This game has dynamic combat, IE somone uses one ability the other can then combo out of it. The way I see it, thieves are meant to take people down 1v1, that’s their job. If they’re winning 1v5, that’s not the class that’s you not knowing how to stop it.

People are dying to skilled thieves that are mostly stacking prowess, precision, and power. What they lack is Vitality and Toughness. They are glass cannons. If you go to gw2skills.net/editor/en and just goof around on there. You can go 30/30/0/0/10 and get some good bonuses to +% dmg (i.e. 10% more dmg if target has condition, +5% dagger dmg, +10% increased dmg over 6 initiative, and +5% dmg when flanking or side). If you put beserker jewels and amulets in everything and just go with divinity runes you have easily 66% crit + 80% crit dmg (150% + 80 = 230% crit dmg or 2.3 multiplier). What I haven’t figured out is if my Assassin Signet is additive to my crit multiplier or how it falls into the equation. Is it another 2.3 + 1.5 = 3.8 or 380% dmg from a crit (this isn’t even adding the 5 stacks of might from “Signets of Power”). Some smarter ppl please correct my math…

Backstab for 3000 × 2 (flank) x 3.8 (crit multiplier) = 22800 (then I guess minus any boons/toughness). I mean if that’s correct math that’s awesome. Too bad if you sneezed in my direction I might die.

link: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoYlUmKOHfy9E/5Ex2DfqTi6VAsaPoZLhJA;TwAg0ynEOJdS9kyJqaM1IqxWjrGZNA

Wow, it is bad enough that the thieves cannot just stealth for an extended period you now want to be able to gut the short stealth they have now.

You know what I do? AOE them, if they run away, job done.

Thief is the easiest class to do well with. It is easy mode, I never die.

Stealth itself is ok and high damage is ok. But combined it’s too much.

Stealth, sneak up to victim unseen, then Cloak & Dagger -> steal (with mug trait) -> assassin’s signet -> backstab. This combo alone easily does 20k+ damage as an opener. A really well geared elementalist might have 18k hp.

Thieves using stealth can essentially choose when to start a fight and allowing them to open with this kind of damage is virtually game breaking to other classes.

Sue.4361:

Thief is the easiest class to do well with. It is easy mode, I never die.

Absolutely agree with this. The thief is by far the easiest class to play in terms of survival. My thief has less hp than my other characters but is far easier to survive with, especially in Solo vs Groups. I’ve never survived a 1vs4 with my elementalist, but I do it all the time with my thief (may not kill them but I don’t die either).

Stealth enables us to choose when to start a fight? no more than a mesmer with invisibility. Stealth lasts 4 seconds when traited, thieves don’t just appear from nowhere unless you aren’t paying attention or they aren’t rendering. This isn’t WoW or Rift where you can have unlimited stealth uptime AND burst, our stealth is short and our damage high when attacking from stealth. I’ve seen other medium armour professions do just as well if not better than a thief in 1vmany encounters. If you play an elementalist, maybe try using dagger/dagger, I’ve seen some impressive dagger ele’s out there that rotate through their attunements extremely well, I’ve been countered with Air stun shield (name?) followed by their AoE Knockback (earth), finding myself retreating with burning, bleeds and vuln conditions as all of my cooldowns were used up. I’ve been destroyed by smart engi’s, Killed in seconds by quickness rangers and wasted backstabs and all cooldowns on a mesmer clone. I wont even mention Scepter Guardians (Thieves only have two ways of removing immobilize) or Warriors (Thieves have one elite skill that grants stability). Some smart Rangers turn invisible when stunned, I’ve never caught one unless they were not paying attention. Everything in this game can be countered in one way or another.

Do you honestly think a d/d elementalist using stone shards can take on 4 players and either win or escape?

If you do then you’ve never played an elementalist. Thieves on the other hand can either win or, at worst, very often escape. I’ve never once escaped a 1 vs 4 situation with my elementalist. My thief does it all the time.

If you’ve only played a thief you don’t understand how much easier they are compared to other classes.

You’re talking 1vs1 in tournament style play where both classes are optimised for that mode of play. In most WvW games (and this is the WvW subforum) you don’t gear yourself for 1vs1 (eg, most elementalists use staff in WvW, not d/d, and saying they should use d/d just to counter thieves indicates how broken thieves are if classes have to spec specifically to counter one class in a WvW game).

Don’t assume I’m playing 1v1 tournaments. I have not set foot in sPvP since open beta. I am purely playing this game for WvW.

Btw I play a D/D elementalist as well. I only drag out my staff for keeps.
Want advice on how to beat Thieves with elementalist? Ask Colton.9460 in the elementalist threads, he gets it.

Don’t want to switch to d/d ele? then don’t expect any sympathy. We have to use dagger to backstab, we have only 6 choices of weapon sets, you have more than 20 weapon skills at your disposal from one weapon set, use them. You can deal over 6k crits to 5 people from 1200 rangewith that precious staff, Thieves have one weapon skill with 1200 range… one skill.

A lot of different playstyles for every class. One class should not have the tools to excel in every aspect. My thief is the glass cannon and it’s tough to get up close in WvW without getting destroyed by AoE, get a good backstab (and maybe attempt to finish my target off) and get out. My build really shines on stragglers catching up to their zerg. I’m not completely level 80 yet and my gear are blues and greens so I’m looking forward to level 80 with exotics. I have a niche and that’s get in, dropped squishy targets and get out.

CRrabbit.1284:

The fact is —-- dagger storm can’t be immobilized. DS will give stability which is anti-immobilization.
Every time I saw a thief using dagger storm I put a spike trap on him (which immobilizes target) , although the trap can be activated, but the thief can run through it and not immobilized at all.

spif.7580:

Thenoob.1480:

Cripple: walk slower than your enemy
Stability: you can’t be crippled
Gee I wonder why no one goes up and hits the guy.

Immobilize Immobilize Immobilize

When I see a thief run into my team with daggerstorm, I swap to Sword and Infitrators (Immobilize) and just auto attack chain him. If he doesn’t cancel daggerstorm he will die.

Stability does not protect you from immobilize (a condition) – it protects you from CONTROL EFFECTS – such as stun, knockdown, daze.

WTB heat vision goggles :P

As an ele I can spam bleeds and cripples around me when a thief goes stealth to do the same damage I would if I could see them, or I can full on mist form and perform a tactical retreat.

As a guardian I can hide inside a troll bubble until the stealth wears off, and spam my AoE type things.

I’ve yet to figure out how to do it on my other characters.