Guild Wars 2

Nothing wrong with the zerg. Apart from the culling and lag, if you are caught in the field alone or with 5 by a zerge your toast. Would not want it any other way. If I’m stupid enough to wander around like a headless chicken thinking i can cap points on my own without anyone bothering me i deserve to be zerged and ganked.
.
What needs to be fixed though is the aiming from walls. It’s ridiculous that as an Ele or Ranger i have to manouvre like crazy, while under heavy fire, to find that one spot from where i can drop my AoE spells. I’m high up on a wall, my range should be at least twice as far as normal. And from the back of the ramparts i should only have to pan my camera view to be able to drop meteor or barrage or any other dropskill right in front of the gate or further out. Same goes for the aiming on siege euquipment, mainly arrowcarts. Make walls transparant when you use one, so you can see where you aim. It’s not at all impossible to aim almost straight up and have the arrows land right on the other side of the wall.

Give a defense buf on the wall. I’m not invincible but i’m sure as hell alot safer up there then the attacker down on the ground. In a siege the attacker is always at a disadvantage, it’s why we build castles in the first place. Let them come and suffer if they want this keep.

Double hit points on gates or minimize the amount of rams that can be placed in front of it.

This will still place the zerge or any larger force at an advantage in the end, simply because they can wear the defenders down with no chance to return once killed. But they cant take a castle in minutes aymore. They will have to commit and be prepared to be tied up longer then 2-3 minutes. 5 man knowing what they are doing should be able to hold a keep at least 5-10 minutes againt 6 to 1 odds. Enough time to call in reinforcements and if any for them to arrive.

This is’nt ideal because it will very probably make things harder for less populated servers and less WvW active ones. But a buff based on numbers could be apllied. Your outmanned and get a “last stand Buff” Determined to stand against the tide, bonus % applied according to the number of enemies.

And vice versa. an “overconfident buff” for the attackers. Your large numerical advantage makes you overconfident and thus more reckless/careless, you are twice as likely to be hit by critical hits.

Well at least something like that to even the odds, and reflect that a small force in a castle that knows what it is doing can easily hold a keep heavily outnumbered for at alot longer then is the case now.

jkctmc.8754:

lol…. There is no skill in AoEing a choke point, and killing dozens, even hundreds of players.

We did it with Bright Wizzards, and there is no way in hell I want to see something THAT silly in this game.

jkctmc.8754:

jkctmc.8754:

lol…. There is no skill in AoEing a choke point, and killing dozens, even hundreds of players.

We did it with Bright Wizzards, and there is no way in hell I want to see something THAT silly in this game.

Meh, BW and Sorcsquads were so easy to beat, it hurt. Did you play the era of Inevitable Doom and Flurry? ;-).

I think if the WvW progression system had worthwhile rewards and the progression points you get for a single target was divided by the number of people involved in the death it would be enough to change WvW. It would encourage more folks running AoN style group, and the more of them the less effective zergs become.

Unfortunately every indication is that wvw progression will be boring and the points will just be handed out to whoever tags. Opportunity lost, imo.

There is also the “Elite vs Newbie Effect”, which states that “anything works against newbies” and many self-declared elite players and groups formulate strategies and tactics they believe to be superior yet actually only work against people who have no idea what’s going on, so much so that it doesn’t really matter what the plan was; it would have worked anyway.

At any rate, I would support:

• Remove AE damage cap (or increase from 5 to 20)
• Maintain AE boon cap
• Maintain AE cap for anything other than “damage”

That is, an AE with a knockdown component should damage 20 people but only knockdown 5. One of the worst things with the DAOC system is that while the AE damage was awesome, things like AE mesmerize wasn’t particularly enjoyable. Straight damage over 20 people should be fine but other effects probably wouldn’t add much to the fun of the game and could make X vs Zerg way too easy.

Niim.9260:

more folks running AoN style group.

I loled pretty hard.
Seems like I found who invented smallscale pugtrainbashing.

Zumy.6318:

Niim.9260:

more folks running AoN style group.

I loled pretty hard.
Seems like I found who invented smallscale pugtrainbashing.

We were referenced and discussed in the thread, thus the comment was in reference to us, to put it in context, not because I believe we created the approach.

As for the other comments, we fight against organized zergs all the time and are just as effective, though with more effort and admittedly a smaller margin of error.

You should try Leroy Jenkins Style. Might give you back the hability not to take yourself to serious ;-).
Smallscale group would have done the job just as well .

Or… I could not take the forums seriously and not care that much. I think I will go with that.

I’d just like to say I agree. No reason to improve, no incentive to run small groups. And this 25v25 gvg crap is rediculous.

Niim.9260:

I think if the WvW progression system had worthwhile rewards and the progression points you get for a single target was divided by the number of people involved in the death it would be enough to change WvW. It would encourage more folks running AoN style group, and the more of them the less effective zergs become.

Unfortunately every indication is that wvw progression will be boring and the points will just be handed out to whoever tags. Opportunity lost, imo.

AoN style groups are suitable for folks who like a particular playstyle. In general however the point of WvW is not “pwning noobs” it is to take and hold objectives. Those are things that need to be rewarded. Running around in open field and fighting larger zergs has its place, but it is ultimately meaningless if it is not helping your team on the scoreboard (like a flashy star player who always holds the ball and scores the most points at the expense of the team losing the game). Don’t get me wrong AoN is very good at what it does and I’m sure they have a lot of fun doing it, but expecting the rewards system to cater to that playstyle is silly. You are rewarded for being organized, applying force in the right place and taking and holding point bearing objectives. This is as it should be.

Niim.9260:

Or… I could not take the forums seriously and not care that much. I think I will go with that.

This, good sir, is very reasonable and honourable. Though boring.

Zumy.6318:

Niim.9260:

Or… I could not take the forums seriously and not care that much. I think I will go with that.

This, good sir, is very reasonable and honourable. Though boring.

Hah hah, true enough.

If you remove the AOE damage cap you gotta remove the AOE boon/heal cap as well to keep things fair.

On the other hand AOE offense >> AOE defense in this game so doing this likely WILL have the desired effect of breaking up oversized zergs: 5 wont be able to beat 30, but 15 may be able to beat 30!

There’s nothing wrong with zerging itself.
The problem lies in the artificial advantages delivered to it…
The AoE-Cap allows them to run as a pork hedgehog, thus making smaller groups unable to keep the enemy crowd in combat, giving a part of them improved movespeed thanks to the out-of-combat-speed-buff and culling turning everyone into a ninja

You counter zerg balls by attacking multiple targets. They take a tower..
You take 3 camps.

Eventually however, numerical superiority will win if controlled properly.

Lonny.9873:

and culling turning everyone into a ninja

Im sitting in a meeting trying to contain tears of laughter,kitten:-D.

Furiousbeard.7602:

You counter zerg balls by attacking multiple targets. They take a tower..
You take 3 camps.

You just turned WvW into PvE :P
Bashing NPCs all day!

Gentlemen first off I would like to congratulate you all for making this my favorite thread in the 6 or 7 months I’ve been playing / reading. bar none the most interesting and rewarding thread of them all. That is for 2 reasons; 1. There are about 6-7 of you guys who seem to be drivers of your 5 mans…. That keep it 5 and 5 only. Thank the mmo gods you exist still. 2. You realize how Anet’s financial team has been the carebears best friends by keeping the entry lvl to winning pvp (we in PAXA dont give 2 kittens about keeps or points) impossibly easy.

Team killer, usually I am the biggest disagreer of what you stand for. If you don’t believe me check NSP/GoM/HoD thread. I disagree with almost everything you said other than driving newcomers away. Vampires cannot live without blood. In my humble opinion Zergs ONLY purpose to is to be fodder for prepared 5 mans. 40 guys were wiped by 8 everyday all day in Daoc. I get your point that drove those 40 out of the game. So it is a challenge for Anet to keep both the mindless and the skilled players in the same pvp system.

The problem is after WoW where an 8 year old with the right spec and gear with 3 buttons could kill 95% of the people he came across, the carebears have this illusion that they (because 90% of the mmo market is THEIR population) hold all the power now in “pvp”.

If Anet took away ressing in combat and made it only out of combat folks could res and removed Aoe cap, that’s called a ball game changer.

My last comment for all the fine 8 manners in here (now made into 5 manners with the worst group size in mmo history) is why don’t we put our 5 man guilds in the same tier and fight every night? My 5 guys switched to Henge because our home (NSP) had like 3-5 other 5 mans that ran every night. Now we fight them and have 1000% more fun…. Why have we not just called a tier land of the 5 and run BLs with our 5 mans seeking the other 5 man guilds?

amiable.4823:

Niim.9260:

I think if the WvW progression system had worthwhile rewards and the progression points you get for a single target was divided by the number of people involved in the death it would be enough to change WvW. It would encourage more folks running AoN style group, and the more of them the less effective zergs become.

Unfortunately every indication is that wvw progression will be boring and the points will just be handed out to whoever tags. Opportunity lost, imo.

AoN style groups are suitable for folks who like a particular playstyle. In general however the point of WvW is not “pwning noobs” it is to take and hold objectives. Those are things that need to be rewarded. Running around in open field and fighting larger zergs has its place, but it is ultimately meaningless if it is not helping your team on the scoreboard (like a flashy star player who always holds the ball and scores the most points at the expense of the team losing the game). Don’t get me wrong AoN is very good at what it does and I’m sure they have a lot of fun doing it, but expecting the rewards system to cater to that playstyle is silly. You are rewarded for being organized, applying force in the right place and taking and holding point bearing objectives. This is as it should be.

You assume that small group play (*for zumy) precludes fighting for your server and objectives, which is not even remotely accurate and there are so many times in a given night that we have huge impacts on the flow of the battle on a map.

Sure lot’s of times we are just running around having fun, because there is nothing going on, we are warming up, or maybe we do not think the current leaders on the map can be helped. We are not a PvDoor guild, we do not care about PPT, we certainly have no interest in winning a tier (that provides less fights), but we still play WvW for its objective based content. Ask Rebel Daughter how many times we have helped maguuma defend their home BL by tactically harassing/wiping the opposing zergs even though we were not even on maguuma, just because he asked. We do the same most nights, when our leaders ask or if we notice the need and can get there in time.

While a small group might not be able to wipe a 60 man zerg, they can harass and slow them down, effectively hindering their every action. When you have 5 people impact the effectiveness of 60, that free’s up your own zergs to be more effective.

Zergs are important to the game because that is how the majority of people play WvW, and that is where they get their enjoyment from. Without zergs, we would have a lot less people on the maps, which in turn means not as much fighting and fun for everyone. There however is room for tactical units in the game’s meta and largely, imo, it is being underutilized because the system deters it in a variety of ways. I do not agree with removing the AoE cap, but I do think a few small tweaks would make a big difference.

That was a lot of blah blah blah, sorry,

I totally agree. Zerging already forced our 5 man to tpvp or wait for the patch.
But as I am aware of the riscs of killing this “pvp”-game if vampires get to gamebreaking, this changes have to be done tender and smooth. Without the well known “exagerating 180° patch”.

Niim.9260:

. I do not agree with removing the AoE cap, but I do think a few small tweaks would make a big difference.

Removing the AoE-Cap in the current state of the game would be devastating for casual players.

Some nice minor tweaks to the general WvW-Fighting would be:
- Set AoE-Cap to 10 people
- Only one Rally. If you go down a second time you have to die, period
- Remove out-of-combat speed
- Remove Culling(Next Patch)
- Make boon-sharing prioritizing your group

Some major changes needing to be discussed and tested properly:
- No more rallies through kills. You have to be rezzed or heal up yourself
- Remove Waypoints in keeps
- Alter the Borderlands. The water-covered area is dead-space right now, making everyone running in predictable circles.

You guys should consider our tier. Structure pvp is terrible…. It’s whose bunker build can sit and take the beating remove conditions and heal as fast as possible inside a fjcking circle. How dumb and Uneventful. Open pvp is obviously the best, it’s where “pvp” started. Our tier has lower pops but a lot that wvw every night. Starting to c more 5 mans…. It is horrendously stupid there are over 5 guys in here alone like me that drive or are snall manning everyday…. All spread out fighting 40 terrible spammers of the number 1 button. Consolidation gents… It costs 17-20 in game gold. Give me a break that’s like 5 nights of 2-3 hours selling everything u pick up from kills in wvw…. Or a day of farming some dumass dungeon.

Jscull.2514:

My last comment for all the fine 8 manners in here (now made into 5 manners with the worst group size in mmo history) is why don’t we put our 5 man guilds in the same tier and fight every night? My 5 guys switched to Henge because our home (NSP) had like 3-5 other 5 mans that ran every night. Now we fight them and have 1000% more fun…. Why have we not just called a tier land of the 5 and run BLs with our 5 mans seeking the other 5 man guilds?

I honestly think us old folks remember things in a subjective manner when we think of the old 8v8 fights in DAoC. Was it great, yes without question. I really enjoyed the player driven honor system around smaller scale fights. I loved the challenge going against tough groups.

But if I want to be honest, I also remember that most of the time there was 1-2 teams better or equal to us and were fun to fight, the rest of the teams you stomped, and overall it became the same thing over and over again. We still spent more time fighting zergs than we did other 8 man and really, who doesnt miss extending a zerg

Jscull.2514:

You guys should consider our tier. Structure pvp is terrible…. It’s whose bunker build can sit and take the beating remove conditions and heal as fast as possible inside a fjcking circle. How dumb and Uneventful. Open pvp is obviously the best, it’s where “pvp” started. Our tier has lower pops but a lot that wvw every night. Starting to c more 5 mans…. It is horrendously stupid there are over 5 guys in here alone like me that drive or are snall manning everyday…. All spread out fighting 40 terrible spammers of the number 1 button. Consolidation gents… It costs 17-20 in game gold. Give me a break that’s like 5 nights of 2-3 hours selling everything u pick up from kills in wvw…. Or a day of farming some dumass dungeon.

Even tough I’d love to, REQ is an EU guild, so this wont be an option at any time.

Jscull.2514:

You guys should consider our tier. Structure pvp is terrible…. It’s whose bunker build can sit and take the beating remove conditions and heal as fast as possible inside a fjcking circle. How dumb and Uneventful.

tPvP also has a lot of depth to it. It’s not so much about killing, but a lot about gathering information.
When will people assault which point with what classes. How long can your bunker stretch out the fight?! Where’s your roamer gonna be? Do you even try to defend or contest an enemy point instead, cause they are going to overcommit?

Edit: Just to be clear. I prefer open-PvP by far. But the current WvW-implementation is unsatisfying…

Give Warhammer with GW2 Toons and Graphics!

Niim.9260:

Jscull.2514:

My last comment for all the fine 8 manners in here (now made into 5 manners with the worst group size in mmo history) is why don’t we put our 5 man guilds in the same tier and fight every night? My 5 guys switched to Henge because our home (NSP) had like 3-5 other 5 mans that ran every night. Now we fight them and have 1000% more fun…. Why have we not just called a tier land of the 5 and run BLs with our 5 mans seeking the other 5 man guilds?

I honestly think us old folks remember things in a subjective manner when we think of the old 8v8 fights in DAoC. Was it great, yes without question. I really enjoyed the player driven honor system around smaller scale fights. I loved the challenge going against tough groups.

But if I want to be honest, I also remember that most of the time there was 1-2 teams better or equal to us and were fun to fight, the rest of the teams you stomped, and overall it became the same thing over and over again. We still spent more time fighting zergs than we did other 8 man and really, who doesnt miss extending a zerg

THIS, OMG THIS!

The current mechanics (see aoe cap) prevent extending from working. Imagine if a couple of staff ele’s could lay down their chill fields and it actually affected everyone crossing it (the return of Speed Warp nodes ^.^). That combined with swiftness would eventually string a zerg out to managable sizes. The zerg foolish enough to chase dies a slow painful death.

Niim.9260:

Jscull.2514:

My last comment for all the fine 8 manners in here (now made into 5 manners with the worst group size in mmo history) is why don’t we put our 5 man guilds in the same tier and fight every night? My 5 guys switched to Henge because our home (NSP) had like 3-5 other 5 mans that ran every night. Now we fight them and have 1000% more fun…. Why have we not just called a tier land of the 5 and run BLs with our 5 mans seeking the other 5 man guilds?

I honestly think us old folks remember things in a subjective manner when we think of the old 8v8 fights in DAoC. Was it great, yes without question. I really enjoyed the player driven honor system around smaller scale fights. I loved the challenge going against tough groups.

But if I want to be honest, I also remember that most of the time there was 1-2 teams better or equal to us and were fun to fight, the rest of the teams you stomped, and overall it became the same thing over and over again. We still spent more time fighting zergs than we did other 8 man and really, who doesnt miss extending a zerg

I don’t disagree with you. We still would rather have the option of 5 mans to fight than striking a miracle having an equalish or even ish fight once or maybe a couple times a night. I always thought the term elitist was to be avoided. If I run a team of guys that are kills driven only… Hate that Anet is ok with 40 people spamming one button to kill a group of guys “who also paid” and have 10 years more experience and take the time to learn class/group/gear templates, and HATE objective Camping / flipping based “pvp” qualifies me? I’m ok with it.

Yeah, I disagree. I like large fights, and judging by the number of people who run in zergs, most people do as well.

Jscull, go play Spvp please.

Zergs ONLY purpose to is to be fodder for prepared 5 mans. 40 guys were wiped by 8 everyday all day in Daoc. I get your point that drove those 40 out of the game. So it is a challenge for Anet to keep both the mindless and the skilled players in the same pvp system.

Good god you need to quit this game, please.

Every single post you’ve made can be boiled down to;

• Bigger numbers should always win just because they’re bigger.
• A video showing a small group killing quite a few players. Not a zerg, not a ball, a stream of players. That is not representative of the issues being discussed here.
• A link to a theory on self-perception of skill.

*Absolutely.

*Yep, that’s how to kill a zerg, by NOT engaging them all at once. You think you can take the firepower of 30 people and live? Much less kill them all before you are instagibbed? Keep dreaming

*Because some people overestimate their own skill, don’t realize that they’re not skilled enough to pull off 4 v 30s, and would like zergs nerfed so they can, even tho they don’t deserve to because they’re not skilled enough.

Those who are already skilled enough do win 4 v 30s, and you will find videos on youtube of such things.

This game is designed around terrible E-sport mechanics, therefor it’ll never be a great World vs World game.

Simply look at DAOC, which is a prime example of a PvP game done right, where running ikittenerg gave you an advantage in terms, but also made you a target for roaming 8 mans that could instantly wipe your zerg if you weren’t paying attention.

8mans in that game kept higher population servers in check, Just cause you had more people, didn’t mean you couldn’t be wiped.

Instead we reward zerging in this game, There is no incentive for a small group of good players to be on the lower population server on a tier, none…In DAOC in meant more targets thus more Realm Points, in this gaming..nothing..

If you’re playing this game for any sort of accomplishment in status from being the best server….you’re kidding yourself…The Ranking in this game means absolutely nothing in terms of servers and skill..It simply means you outnumber your opponents.