Guild Wars 2

I’m not getting into all the cons of how this game works around zergballs, we are all well aware of it at this point.

What I suggest is lets make it less fun for people to run in a giant tunbleweed fashion across the map.

New Passive area skills:

1) Mass Viscosity: While moving, if you are within 1200 range of more than 20 allies, you move slower decreasing -50% speed. The debuff continues for 10 seconds after all allies are not within 1200 range.

They can obviously pull something like this off just think about the frozen condition thing in the cold fractal or whatever it is called. If you get a ball of more than 20 players it starts to punish them for being on top of each other. Lets help fix culling by making them split up anet.

2) Mass Confounding: If you are standing within 600 range of more than 20 allies, you gain confusion every time you activate a skill.

Everything is based on 20 since that is what Anet felt was an acceptable number of enemies to portal bomb you and cull in 5 seconds later.

Also i would like to add I was thinking about riot mobs when coming up with these skills. The confusion part is when the mob starts hurting itself.
Personally i think it should be 10, but that is a different topic.

EDIT: This was not meant to be a QQ post, merely suggestions.

Or you could just remove the AoE cap.

For bonus points make AoE damage decrease the further away from the AoE center a player is.

The AoE cap favors the zerg at the moment that is for sure.

WvW is a massive battleground, that, shockingly, needs to involve a massive amount of people, or zergs. If you want to fight against less people join sPvP

I know lets put everyone on a small map with a few other ppl and let them battle it out by capping objectives. oh wait…

If you don’t like zerg v zerg there is a thing called spvp you can play.

I think that they should just add in Gigantor Golems.

Where you build 5 Omega golems.

Get them to stack ontop of each other, and then hit like the 6 number.

And they morph into this huge kitten golem capable of being anti-personnel, with Omega golems as legs and arms. Which will just rip open walls and eat them etc etc. Has to have fire and hello kitties on the side too.
You can only build one when outmanned with buff.

I’ve attached a schematic for Anet.

funny a dragonbrand is posting this. seems like fort aspenwood is too good

anyway, it’s WORLD VS WORLD if you don’t have enough people you lose simple as that

I expect a lot of flak from the top 2 tiers, just look at the post above me. I don’t like sPvP and wasn’t trying to say zerging is bad. I’m saying if anet wants WvW to be played by more than 6 servers on the US side they are going to resolve the 60v20 fights we see in tier 3. If you bust the zergs up in the upper tiers are you guys just afraid of how bad you might actually be at fighting?

Its been just 2 weeks after reset, tiers still need some adjustments, stop being so impatience.

MrKnieves.4162:

Its been just 2 weeks after reset, tiers still need some adjustments, stop being so impatience.

LOL IC what you did there nice

Puddin Cheeks.8539:

I expect a lot of flak from the top 2 tiers, just look at the post above me. I don’t like sPvP and wasn’t trying to say zerging is bad. I’m saying if anet wants WvW to be played by more than 6 servers on the US side they are going to resolve the 60v20 fights we see in tier 3. If you bust the zergs up in the upper tiers are you guys just afraid of how bad you might actually be at fighting?

We are outnumbered more often than not on TC. If you are good you can take out a zerg bigger than you and stay competetive with good fights. If they are going to do anything just fix the outmanned buff to give a small advantage. Why punish ppl for running in a big group if they can?

I just read on a website that Anet is adding in an achievement for culling AND zerg size. There is supposedly and Easter egg set up to give you a non combat piece of clothing if you get both to go off at the same time.

Prolly a tshirt. I can see it now. the front is blank, and the back say’s “…and now you don’t”

Not very funny if you ask me ANet..

I like the idea of a speed debuff if in a massive zerg. Smaller groups should be more mobile than a zergball and should be able to engage them as such. The AoE needs more balance in terms of damage and cap, or as someone suggested fall-off damage the further you are from the center point.

To all the zergers saying to “go sPvP” – I do that anyway but i like large scale combat and sieges, thanks. Keep the zerging, I dont care, but there has to be penalties for running in such a fashion as opposed to a more mobile smaller group (lets say less than 20).

Dunno why everyone is so afraid of zerg penalties, whether they be minor or not. Numbers have all the advantages, but no disadvantages – there has to be a balance somewhere in that – every battle shouldn’t always be about numbers.

Edit:
Fix the out-manned buff too please, the current one does nothing but discourage people and wave a white-flag. EXP, Karma and Magic Find doesn’t exactly help bolster the troops.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Lets not punish zerging it’s a viable tactic in large scale pvp but we can stop incentivizing it.

As for the you don’t like Zerg go spvp crowd. That’s bull kitten and you know it. Running with a small group in a large map and fighting groups like yours or Zerg busting is a tried and true part of large scale pvp and has been for years. So please stop. We all know at the moment the mechanics in this game favor the Zerg far to much and need to be changed to even it out. Like I said don’t punish but please stop rewarding that style of play.

Truely it’s not even Zerg but just greater numbers in general that are over rewarded and its mainly that way becuase of the Rez system in this game. I got in a fight solo vs five people, does it matter that they where bad and I dropped two of them out of the gate? Nope because I couldn’t stomp both of them at once so well I was stomping one the people mass rezzed the other guy. No way for me to interrupt the Rez since I was stuck in stomp animation and no resources spent by them to actualy get the guy back up. If anything a change to rezzing and a change to AoE could greatly change how useful small groups of players could effect that battlefield (for real world reference think seal team or air borne units).

I dislike complicated solutions. How about a simpler one:

Show us the zergs, Anet!

That’s right. Whenever there is a large amount of players in an area, announce it to ALL THREE servers on the minimap. Keep it constantly updated. Oh is there a zerg coming stealthed towards you with a million stealth combos to abuse culling? No. You see it appreach on the minimap, clear as day. They can stealth but they cannot hide.

This would force large guilds to rethink their zergballing if they want to stay hidden on the map (like it is now). Move divided, fight as a group. Yet it wouldnt actually stop it per say with artificial debuffs/buffs. You could still do a massive zergball that is the constant target of 2 hostile servers.

This would expand on the combat warning that already exist if larger groups engage.

Why would you want to discourage large scale combat in a large scale zone. If WvW was meant to be 5v5 or 10 v 10 why did they cap the zones at 100 or so each server per map

Don’t get me wrong I like the small scale battles as well, but the zerg is part of the fun. You have to be aware and use scouts more effectively if you are in a small group to avoid the zerg when trying to take camps.

Keira Ferland.5619:

funny a dragonbrand is posting this. seems like fort aspenwood is too good

anyway, it’s WORLD VS WORLD if you don’t have enough people you lose simple as that

That is the inherent problem with WvW in the higher tiers. Like I said, match-ups should not always be about numbers.

We’re not saying adjust populations to favor a server, we’re saying there should be some sort of penalty for running in a group of 20+, even if its a small speed debuff. Being outnumbered is going to happen, i have no problems with that, but at least give the outmanned something to counter the zerg whether it be a change to the outmanned buff or a debuff to zerballers.

You can’t tell me it’s fun roflstomping people over and over because you outnumber them.

DB has been on both sides of the coin fyi and either is not fun at all.

But where would the zerglets hide?!

The problem is not the game, the problem is the ppl who like zerg, and pvdoor.
Like this:
Me: Hey guys, can i get a 1 party for take camps? No answer
Me: Hey guys can i get 1 person for take camps? No answer
Commander: Everybody with me
-.-
At the end i took the camp … alone -.-

Dawdler.8521:

I dislike complicated solutions. How about a simpler one:

Show us the zergs, Anet!

That’s right. Whenever there is a large amount of players in an area, announce it to ALL THREE servers on the minimap. Keep it constantly updated. Oh is there a zerg coming stealthed towards you with a million stealth combos to abuse culling? No. You see it appreach on the minimap, clear as day. They can stealth but they cannot hide.

This would force large guilds to rethink their zergballing if they want to stay hidden on the map (like it is now). Move divided, fight as a group. Yet it wouldnt actually stop it per say with artificial debuffs/buffs. You could still do a massive zergball that is the constant target of 2 hostile servers.

This would expand on the combat warning that already exist if larger groups engage.

I would settle for even just that (plus a change in the outmanned buff too, lol) !

Zergballing? then you come up on the warmap as “your color” swords that can be seen moving across the warmap (similar to commander tags). I honestly think that would help a lot and not necessarily punish that style of play. It would actually open up tactical movement that commanders would have to consider. I like it.

Mass Viscosity and Mass Confounding! Those are two of the greatest suggestions I’ve seen in any MMO thread.

+1 to you, sir.

How about “crowd psychology”? Once your zerg reaches critical mass, you lose control of your character and all the commands for every character come from a single randomly selected player. This would also ease the load on the server.

Actually, that probably wouldn’t be much of an impediment since all the zerg does already is W 1 1 1 1 1.

Dawdler.8521:

I dislike complicated solutions. How about a simpler one:

Show us the zergs, Anet!

That’s right. Whenever there is a large amount of players in an area, announce it to ALL THREE servers on the minimap. Keep it constantly updated. Oh is there a zerg coming stealthed towards you with a million stealth combos to abuse culling? No. You see it appreach on the minimap, clear as day. They can stealth but they cannot hide.

This would force large guilds to rethink their zergballing if they want to stay hidden on the map (like it is now). Move divided, fight as a group. Yet it wouldnt actually stop it per say with artificial debuffs/buffs. You could still do a massive zergball that is the constant target of 2 hostile servers.

This would expand on the combat warning that already exist if larger groups engage.

I would rather not punish large teams who still coordinate no matter their numbers. I’ve seen zerg sized teams with the discipline to catapult keep walls with small groups to distract else where with no resistance until it was too late. This solution would simply compound the problem caused by the current map swords and pretty much lock in the zerg vs zerg nature of w3.

Take out map swords, revert to old culling or fix it, and take out aoe limit. The pve’rs these features were meant to cater to are not consistently playing w3 anyway and the rest of us mostly or only play w3, but with these features it’s not the living game world we wanted our characters to live in. There’s no reason to have anyone float in an area to call for defense or to have scouts and even if you did, what can even the best players in a small group or two do against a zerg with so many limitations both intended and unintended design wise (aoe limit and culling mostly).

There are no rewards for defending anything. You can spend hours keeping watch on watergate for what reward——Zilch nothing. So despite being a defensive commander and I do spend alot of time watching the map gates resetting seige 4-6 hours a session I get no reward for it whatsoever. Now if I want badges karma drops poor as they are (cannot understand why players drop beaks) you are only going to get them by attacking something. If in T1 there are going to be zergs everywhere by all sides. In T4 where I am they are there but also small groups doing many things that gain rewards. if 20-30 jump onto your map I suppose you could send 1 thief down to kill them all (but thats another thread sry) you have to send a sizeable force to stop them in their tracks or loose. This is war not some picnic in the park. Do I panic when I se a flag change colour no I watch and wait. Do I panic when a camp gets flipped no but in 5 mins I am taking it back. The definition of a zerg varies do you you mean 10.20.30. 100.
We get acused of being a zerg server but lol I wish sometimes I had a zerg to dispach. SPVP is for small groups WVW is for every conceivable use of manpower out there.

I dont have a problem with zergs.
I have a problem of aoe only damaging 5 out of 25+ in that zergball

Rob.7624:

I think that they should just add in Gigantor Golems.

Where you build 5 Omega golems.

Get them to stack ontop of each other, and then hit like the 6 number.

And they morph into this huge kitten golem capable of being anti-personnel, with Omega golems as legs and arms. Which will just rip open walls and eat them etc etc. Has to have fire and hello kitties on the side too.
You can only build one when outmanned with buff.

I’ve attached a schematic for Anet.

I agree with this guy.

They need to start adding features to Reduce the zerging. Couple of things offhand.

- Eliminate door tagging to contest a keep. Only gets contested if it’s hit by siege and/or has 15% or more damage. (this is needed to allow the next point below.)

- Eliminate waypoint porting when the DE timer resets. It’s way to easy to keep a zerg together when everyone knows they can port back to a contested keep at timer reset. Now people will actually have to stay and defend which means a smaller zerg in the open field. If people now ALWAYS have to run to a contested keep it will increase more open field skirmishes.

- Have a FREE system for 2-4 multiple groups to coordinate. Either a raid system or C&S system that shows no pin on the map to attract a zerg. You will have more medium size forces on the map and less people zerging on the commanders “blue zerg magnet” pin.

They simply need to make changes to promote more medium size forces on the map.

Anet has repeatedly said they support zerg warfare in wvw over other forms.

@Ahmrill

Yes mate you make some valid points but if it were that simple i am sure that is how it would be set up. Please consider:-

The Zerg if it runs from place to place map to map and just takes camps towers keeps etc but can port at a moments notice to defend I can partially agree with you. However when i upgrade fully a keep such as hills and run supply protect yaks to do it never mind the cost—just buy more gems. Do you not think there should be benefits to that. If you could not port then why build in the first place why take hours running yaks and retaking camps. So its not as simple as you make out

Door tagging mmm if no tag then people would be forced to sit in a tower keep for hours doing nothing at all. Having enough players to spend their playtime just watching is hard enough now without needing 10 plus in each place when nothing is happening. I politely ask if you would be willing to do this all evening. There is enough paranoia about white swords from the quaggins than the orange swords. If you need to get people off your homeland just go hit their garrison with 10 and watch your homeland become peaceful for a while.

Your final point about communication is the least and quickest issue to overcome We have alliance chat on mumble TS for our guild and I know what every team small and large is up to on 4 maps and what each commander is doing and why. Without communication its like fishing in a empty pond

I just noticed you are on JQ a great wvw server. Your experience may be much different on a T4 were numbers are not as great and the covering of 4 maps with not many is much more important

I just thought of that myself but not very productive lol

The Large scale pvp part of wvw I find there’s things not quite right with it, of course the bigger army won’t always win you need communication and coordination but the rest is alot of culling abuse, aoe/skill spam and sometimes skill lag. Does anet intend this part of wvw to look like and play like a cluster-kitten?
One more thing there’s a certain pressure to roll a profession to be one of the ‘cool kids’ just be whatever you are most skilled and comfortable with, almost everybody can be useful to their server in wvw.

While I don’t agree with zergs having debuffs, I do agree that there should be an effort to lessen the occurrence or power of the zerg. I know WvW is supposed to be all about large wars. But the simple reason being the game just can’t handle the amount of culling that happens in mega battles. Of course Anet can always throw money at improving the game client’s ability to deal with the issue. But I think it would make sense if they were to give people more incentive in avoiding the zerg.

Ruprect.7260:

Why would you want to discourage large scale combat in a large scale zone. If WvW was meant to be 5v5 or 10 v 10 why did they cap the zones at 100 or so each server per map.

So are parties limited to 5 people? How come even a squad has a max of 50 people? Why does AoE cap at 5 people? The 100 people cap per server per map was to ensure more people could get into WvW, not so they could all blob up and turn into le monobus, as the French like to call a zerg.

5 teams of ten people can be a lot more effective at WvW than a single 50 man zerg can. Yes, they’ll melt doors, blahblahblah. But in comparison, the zerg will get less rewards, because they do less damage in comparison to the enemy. Not to mention that two or three flame rams is the most a zerg puts down; something a 10 man team can do just as easily.

The major difference is that those 5 smaller teams can spread out across the map and attack several towers at the same time, forcing the enemy to choose which tower they’d like to lose and which one they’d like to keep. And considering that zergs usually keep towers with paper doors..

I absolutely LOVE large scale combat. An epic battle across the forest north of Valley Keep? 50 players battling for control over Redvale? I’m all for it!

But running around in a 2×2m box and pressing 1 is NOT large scale combat. It’s just kitten

I fear both OPs proposals would lead to shouting at that 21st player who is less educated in game mechanics. Same thing as damage from friendly fire, or friendly player collision detection on skills/movement.

I assume you would introduce special rules for waypoints, vendors, narrow passages, etc.

Erinshaw.8035:

The Zerg if it runs from place to place map to map and just takes camps towers keeps etc but can port at a moments notice to defend I can partially agree with you. However when i upgrade fully a keep such as hills and run supply protect yaks do you not think there should be benefits to that. If you could not port then why build in the first place why take hours running yaks and retaking camps.

If the point is to try and reduce zergs I feel you have to change this. If you have a zerg of 50 people, no one bothers to actually stay at a keep. They just join the flock and wait for the timer reset if enemies get on a keep. If people had to actually make a choice to defend or join the roaming zerg…. some would stay. That 50 person zerg could get knocked down to 35 or 30 people now.

Erinshaw.8035:

Door tagging mmm if no tag then people would be forced to sit in a tower keep for hours doing nothing at all. Having enough players to spend their playtime just watching is hard enough now without needing 10 plus in each place when nothing is happening. I politely ask if you would be willing to do this all evening.

One player shouldn’t be able to stop an entire server from using a waypoint upgrade. A single thief can contest a waypoint indefinitely. It’s just silly. A waypoint should become contested from a legitimate enemy force. If you have 5-10 players in the area and/or any section of the keep/tower has at least 10-15% damage it would then become contested. I’m taking my experience from DAOC, having 25% or more damage on a section would contest the keep waypoint. Also having a certain number of players in the area would contest the waypoint. This was an extremely effective system and would work well here.

Erinshaw.8035:

Your final point about communication is the least and quickest issue to overcome We have alliance chat on mumble TS for our guild and I know what every team small and large is up to on 4 maps and what each commander is doing and why. Without communication its like fishing in a empty pond

We also use VoIP for our guild. But using VoIP AND a visual in game system like the commander and squad is much more effective. Our guild likes running Havoc forces, we don’t like leading zergs. Many guilds and players use the C&S system to coordinate their multiple groups with no intention of leading major objectives. This causes issues of to many pins, people being called “bad leaders” and being harassed in /team and /map chat. I’ve seen it happen to others and it’s happened to us, even when I explained the pin was for our guild groups. Creating a system for 2-4 groups to coordinate better in game, without a public pin. will result in more medium size forces on the map. It will also not interfere with those commanders who are actually leading the zone.

I simply want a way to spread players on the map more, reduce zergs and allow those medium forces (2-4 groups of players) to coordinate visually in game better. I think these changes will be healthier for WvW in general.

akanibbles.6237:

To roam around in a huge zerg ball, getting the best from culling for maximum effect, and farming honor badges and events etc…

So easy just to follow the pack, you don’t need to know what you are doing either – it’s fun and predictable. There is no PvP element to really worry about.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Why-do-people-play-WvWvW/page/2#post1478877

^^this is why zergs should not get any love.

@ ahmrill

I hear you my friend but please define what a zerg is on my server it is less than 20 and less than that at certain times of the day. We may have 8-10 on the whole map. Tactics reduces zergs and thats up to the alliances to organise that. However if you are on a high populated wvw server zergs will rule the day and they can still have 10 at each camp tower etc

Erinshaw.8035:

@ ahmrill

I hear you my friend but please define what a zerg is on my server it is less than 20 and less than that at certain times of the day. We may have 8-10 on the whole map. Tactics reduces zergs and thats up to the alliances to organise that. However if you are on a high populated wvw server zergs will rule the day and they can still have 10 at each camp tower etc

I suppose I’m basing my idea of a zerg with 40-50 people which is often seen on Jade Quarry in T1. If you run with 2-3 groups, like our guild often does, you either run with our zerg or run as multiple groups using only VoIP to coordinate.

If we run as 2-3 groups and get zerged… well that was our choice. But it would be nice to have the in game tools to actually organize our 2-3 groups to be more effective. If we put a commander pin up, our 2-3 groups becomes a zerg and we’re expected to lead. Having some other system for medium forces would be nice.

yes, dont show love for 95% of the WvW players and instead focus on the other 5%

@ Ahmrill

In your situation I agree unfortunatly any sweeping change affects all servers differently
In your case you can do what I have to do mumble for alliance and ts for guild grps

Why are people so defensive about zergs? What are you afriad of? All we’re asking for is a little bit of balance so zergballing doesnt have all the advantages and no disadvantages. We want variety, we want strengths and weaknesses to every playstyle. Read: Balance.

Some of you zergers are starting to show you’re colors.

Erinshaw.8035:

@ Ahmrill

In your situation I agree unfortunatly any sweeping change affects all servers differently
In your case you can do what I have to do mumble for alliance and ts for guild grps

I’m don’t wish to completely eliminate the zerg, just have options so medium forces can be more effective for less populated servers or off-peak times. I don’t wish to see anyone forced to play any way they don’t want. That being said, they need to have a grouping system that reflects all different play styles, so players and guilds can use the system that works best. I’m not even looking to see an entire new grouping system added to that game. Just change the commander and squad system so you can hide the pin AND still keep all the functions of the squad.

Small – 5 man group

Medium – Squad system but commander pin is visible only to people IN the squad. ideal for 2-4 groups doing specific things.

Large – Current commander system with pin visible to all allies (zerg)

3rd party VoIP as a solution simply isn’t enough. And it’s either 5man it or zerg it if you actually want to use in-game visual tools to coordinate. Allow a grouping system for all different playstyles and let the players and guilds choose what works best for them. This would have more medium size forces on the battlefield not just 5 mans or zergs.

Jiiub.7135:

yes, dont show love for 95% of the WvW players and instead focus on the other 5%

I guess 95% of the people do zerg…. as there is no other option if you have more than 5 people. If you have the option to create a medium size group system for 2-4 grps to coordinate in game how is that a bad thing?

Players, guilds and alliances will still use the system that works best for them. Right now we only have two in-game options to use.

What if a commander required a certain amount of players in his/her squad before the blue pin showed up on the map. It would make them form a legit party in /t or /g chat if they want the zombies to follow the blue star on the map.

So if you don’t get 20 people in your squad then no blue star for you.

Puddin Cheeks.8539:

What I suggest is lets make it less fun for people to run in a giant tunbleweed fashion across the map.

Step 1: Show zergs on the map
Step 2: Give trebuchets and mortars a long range, very quick reload, high damage round that siege weapons and structures are immune to. Or make a buildable mortar, like catapults, and require only a couple people’s worth of supplies.
Step 3: Zergs become a lot less fun (unless you’re the one with the mortar).

Dawdler.8521:

I dislike complicated solutions. How about a simpler one:

Show us the zergs, Anet!

That’s right. Whenever there is a large amount of players in an area, announce it to ALL THREE servers on the minimap. Keep it constantly updated. Oh is there a zerg coming stealthed towards you with a million stealth combos to abuse culling? No. You see it appreach on the minimap, clear as day. They can stealth but they cannot hide.

This would force large guilds to rethink their zergballing if they want to stay hidden on the map (like it is now). Move divided, fight as a group. Yet it wouldnt actually stop it per say with artificial debuffs/buffs. You could still do a massive zergball that is the constant target of 2 hostile servers.

This would expand on the combat warning that already exist if larger groups engage.

This feature is already implemented.

It largely depends on your server’s communicating skills. If a lone wolf stumble upon a large zerg. They better report it.

War have always been about zergs. We need like 10k player zergs and bigger maps. That would make w3 more realistic.

Anet should make another game mode for small groups fights, they could call it Structured PVP. Wait a minute….

Zergs are not undefeatable, they can only be in one place at a time. Make multiple groups, enough to take over objectives, and hit multiple things at once, the zerg will either lose ground, or end up reacting to all the hotspots they have to go clean up to the faster nimbler forces.

If you can’t match a zerg in numbers you can slow them down a long time, maybe forever, with excellent siege preparation. And if they do eventually get whatever one thing they one, its still just one thing. Don’t put all your priorities on saving that one thing if its their priority, take as much other stuff that they aren’t focused on.

I agree, infestor is broken.

On topic: I disagree with the notion of more passive abilities. They should instead give players active abilities to disperse a zerg that are clearly telegraphed, give time to react, and have devastating affects if they are allowed to actually connect with the zerg stack. So basically ballista 2 but better. Alternatively, you could try actually using siege.