the lemongrass/melandru rune meta is exactly the sort of whack-a-mole balancing Anet was trying to avoid all those eons ago at launch. Debuffs are needed for the debuffs to bring condi application in line with condi cleanse. Also immob stacking was the worst idea since lobster-flavored ice cream and should be reversed or at the very least work the same way fear does.
There is a simple counter to Stuns: Stability/Stun Breakers
There is a simple counter to Immobilizations/chills/cripples: condi removal skills OR condi duration reduction food/armor stats.
If you are suffering from these effects simply adjust your gear/playing style/skills to compensate for these adversities.
ANET do not change a thing. This is the one part of WVW combat that you guys nailed since release!!!! Focus on giving WvWers more rewards and achievements for going to battle each and every day!
ok u are seen this problem through warrior or guardian eyes arent u?well there is other classes out there that dont have any of that handy.
mes has barely any access to stability, neiter does necro. also mes has terrible condi cleanse. there needs to be something done about the cc in this game, because if u get perma cced,crippled,chilled, stunned, interrupted wihtout even a slight chance of reacting, then thats not ok and does need to be changed. u might think its fun: yay this guy here couldnt move hahah i’m soo awesome godlike! well for the other person its not fun at all.
immbilize should never stack, period. knockdowns should not be chain able, stuns shouldnd be chainable and chill,cripple need a little tone down in duration.
a dr on cc sounds fair so u actually get a chance after u got hard cc, to get out of there!
if u dont understand why this is necessary, roll a mes or necro and go fight a blob that is at least same size as u are and then we will see how much u wanna defend this broken mechanic!
It’s in a good place at the moment…
5 hammer warriors with a 3s stun hit you at the same time, you don’t get stunned for 15s, you get stunned for 3s from the last warrior that hit you, now like I said if they hit you at the same time… All up your total stun time is… 3 seconds, not 15s.
Blind on the other hand lol
People which are against DR in this case here have absolutely no clues, about what they are talking.
They see the “problem” and yes its a massive problem here only out of their own personal view as players who have massive access to these hard cc’s and its natural that they start to defend that gameplay now, because they are fearing, that Anet could see this case in the same way, like us who want cc’s to be tone down and nerf the **** out of cc’s, so that they can’t be anymore those wannabe super godlike “skillful” cough pro’s that can win agaist players, that had from second 1 to their death absolutely 0 chance to do anything !!
Thats not skill pults, its toally pitiful to say, that something like this crap has anything to do with “skill”. It makes me laugh over everybody, who says, that this is skillful to abuse a bad cheap game mechanic that is terribly balanced, if you want to speak of any balance here at all to be able to win agaisnt someone, who had never a chance to fight back, cause of being unable to move, unable to use skills andunable to make a dodge roll, while lieign on the ground flat…
Heck, even while lieing on the ground I should be still able to make at least a kittening dodge roll to the sides to be able to kittenign escape that perma catching cc’s perhaps.
The game has way too much CC’s Immobilize belongs completely removed out of the game. Knockdown and Stun are more than enough as hard. As Soft CC’s are also Cripple and Chill more than enough, Fear is OP and obsolete and should get its effect changed.
GW1 also hadnt so extreme much CC’s and also had only Knockdowns and Stuns basically and it played out that way very well and felt not too much, nor too less, it was exactly right.
Just give those Classes that lose Fear more access to Cripple&Chill and those that lose immobilize more access to Stun/Daze and everythign would be alot better for the beginning.
Reduce then slightly the durations of the hard and soft CC’s, remove all Buff items from WvW finally as a counterweight for that change and add DR to hard CC’s and then we could start to speak of balance and skillful playing, when getting perma hard CCed isn’t possible anymore.
Its a bad JOKE to tell someone, who doesn’t want to get perma knockdowned, that he has to use specific Buff Food and waste all of his Rune Slots for a specific Rune Set first, only to be not eating permanently the grounds dust!!
As said, if Anet should never put DR to hard CC’s, I demand the removal of DR from Stealth, because that was an effective counterplay to avoid being hit by hard CCs, when the foe can’t see and target you, that was of the same cheesy and “skillful” level, as like perma spamming hard cc’s is >.>
Seriously people, get real finally and stop trying to block needed game changes, only because they would mean some nerfs to some classes.
Nerfs are important to balance the whole game and not just only single classes.
CC’s affect ALL CLASSES and not just only those that are able to spam CC’s like crazy…
And alot of the Classes have nearly no to absolutely no good access to condition remove or stun breakers so oftenly, as like the other side is able to spam the CC’s.
if we in the defense would be able to spam as much cleanses and stunbreakers, like the other side is able to spam CC’s, then we wouldn’t have this “problem” at all, because then the game would be on a 50/50 balance, but this is here simply not the case.
Tjhe game is more like currently in a 10/90 relation, where you get on every condi clean /stunbreaker 9 hard CC’s spammed instantly in your face with the follow, that you like dead on the ground, cause the only classes, that are able to mitigate all those 9 spammed CC’s over the course of time, are the soldier classes, that are also able to spam them together so much, cause they have enough ways to block long enough attacks together with the dodge rolls, which simple most other classes have NOT.
Open your eyes and see this issue out of the view for once of all classes and not just only out of the view from the source of the problem, which are here warrios and guardians in most cases, followed by Thieves and Necromancers with their Stuns and Fears.
The biggest problem are Warriors and Guardians here as they together can just spam too often Knockdowns in a Zerg/Group.
But Warriors are in my opinion anyways in a general way to overpowered with their way too high mobility and Anets total most loved class, that may not get any scratchs on >.> But thats an other topic.
People which are against DR in this case here have absolutely no clues, about what they are talking.
They see the “problem” and yes its a massive problem here only out of their own personal view as players who have massive access to these hard cc’s and its natural that they start to defend that gameplay now, because they are fearing, that Anet could see this case in the same way, like us who want cc’s to be tone down and nerf the **** out of cc’s, so that they can’t be anymore those wannabe super godlike “skillful” cough pro’s that can win agaist players, that had from second 1 to their death absolutely 0 chance to do anything !!Thats not skill pults, its toally pitiful to say, that something like this crap has anything to do with “skill”. It makes me laugh over everybody, who says, that this is skillful to abuse a bad cheap game mechanic that is terribly balanced, if you want to speak of any balance here at all to be able to win agaisnt someone, who had never a chance to fight back, cause of being unable to move, unable to use skills andunable to make a dodge roll, while lieign on the ground flat…
Heck, even while lieing on the ground I should be still able to make at least a kittening dodge roll to the sides to be able to kittenign escape that perma catching cc’s perhaps.The game has way too much CC’s Immobilize belongs completely removed out of the game. Knockdown and Stun are more than enough as hard. As Soft CC’s are also Cripple and Chill more than enough, Fear is OP and obsolete and should get its effect changed.
GW1 also hadnt so extreme much CC’s and also had only Knockdowns and Stuns basically and it played out that way very well and felt not too much, nor too less, it was exactly right.
Just give those Classes that lose Fear more access to Cripple&Chill and those that lose immobilize more access to Stun/Daze and everythign would be alot better for the beginning.
Reduce then slightly the durations of the hard and soft CC’s, remove all Buff items from WvW finally as a counterweight for that change and add DR to hard CC’s and then we could start to speak of balance and skillful playing, when getting perma hard CCed isn’t possible anymore.
Its a bad JOKE to tell someone, who doesn’t want to get perma knockdowned, that he has to use specific Buff Food and waste all of his Rune Slots for a specific Rune Set first, only to be not eating permanently the grounds dust!!
As said, if Anet should never put DR to hard CC’s, I demand the removal of DR from Stealth, because that was an effective counterplay to avoid being hit by hard CCs, when the foe can’t see and target you, that was of the same cheesy and “skillful” level, as like perma spamming hard cc’s is >.>
Seriously people, get real finally and stop trying to block needed game changes, only because they would mean some nerfs to some classes.
Nerfs are important to balance the whole game and not just only single classes.
CC’s affect ALL CLASSES and not just only those that are able to spam CC’s like crazy…
And alot of the Classes have nearly no to absolutely no good access to condition remove or stun breakers so oftenly, as like the other side is able to spam the CC’s.if we in the defense would be able to spam as much cleanses and stunbreakers, like the other side is able to spam CC’s, then we wouldn’t have this “problem” at all, because then the game would be on a 50/50 balance, but this is here simply not the case.
Tjhe game is more like currently in a 10/90 relation, where you get on every condi clean /stunbreaker 9 hard CC’s spammed instantly in your face with the follow, that you like dead on the ground, cause the only classes, that are able to mitigate all those 9 spammed CC’s over the course of time, are the soldier classes, that are also able to spam them together so much, cause they have enough ways to block long enough attacks together with the dodge rolls, which simple most other classes have NOT.Open your eyes and see this issue out of the view for once of all classes and not just only out of the view from the source of the problem, which are here warrios and guardians in most cases, followed by Thieves and Necromancers with their Stuns and Fears.
The biggest problem are Warriors and Guardians here as they together can just spam too often Knockdowns in a Zerg/Group.
But Warriors are in my opinion anyways in a general way to overpowered with their way too high mobility and Anets total most loved class, that may not get any scratchs on >.> But thats an other topic.
+1, Very well said.
introducing dr is straight up dumbing down the game. what anet SHOULD do is give classes like mesmers and rangers more condi clearing abilities and necros and thief/engies more stability sources.
this gives you options for counter play against cc, but doesn’t reward bad players for not dodging cc by just eating one early.
In zerg fights, DR wouldn’t effect anything the first rush through, it would be the repeat rushes that would suffer. But as anybody in T2 can tell you, that first rush is usually the most devastating one since anybody caught in the way of the train is dead to begin with. If Z1 trains into Z2 before Z2 can react, Z2 is usually the one who will lose the fight. Whereas if Z1 trains into Z2 and they dodge, Z1 will suffer due to an immediate counterattack. DR wouldn’t effect that which determines the entire fight to begin with. It’d only help in small man fights or tower/keep defense/offense. In terms of actual zerg versus zerg…DR effects nothing.
Poor players that don’t have or use panic buttons or dodge rolls are the only ones that get one-pushed in melee combat. Most fights between competent groups require several jousts to decide, and by your own admission DR would ruin those. Game balance is not supposed to cater to poor play at the expense of good play.
Re: DR would “help” 1vX situations: The game isn’t balanced around 1vX. If you fight outnumbered, play well, but are still overwhelmed, that’s just tough. But it doesn’t reflect poorly on your ability, so it should roll right off your back. In even numbered situations, there are plenty of counters available, and if you really think it is so unstoppable, there is nothing preventing your team from using the same tactics as well. When you run into AoN or Lion etc with equal numbers, let us know how easy it was to chain cc them to death.
Open your eyes and see this issue out of the view for once of all classes and not just only out of the view from the source of the problem, which are here warrios and guardians in most cases, followed by Thieves and Necromancers with their Stuns and Fears.
The biggest problem are Warriors and Guardians here as they together can just spam too often Knockdowns in a Zerg/Group.
But Warriors are in my opinion anyways in a general way to overpowered with their way too high mobility and Anets total most loved class, that may not get any scratchs on >.> But thats an other topic.
The only situation in which you would ever be exposed to the chain-cc that you find so problematic is if you plan to travel in the melee ball. If that is so, you should be in a proper melee party with guardians. If those guardians are any good, you are just as safe against cc as they are. kitten everything in this game is balanced around the assumption that players know how to work together and yet there are still people complaining that they lack personal stability, when there is an entire class dedicated to boon sharing.
Now let’s say that you are a mesmer, thief, staff ele, etc. You don’t travel in the melee ball and you don’t need a melee party, because the only way that you could be run over is if you play poorly.
So to review, cc is adequately countered in all situations by party composition and positioning. You don’t even need to change your build. You certainly don’t need to patch the game. You just need to play well.
Nope, they are all fine. Diminishing returns is the worst mechanic ever to hit an MMO. No one should be forced to have their skills work less then full strength simply another player just hit you with a similar skill.
You’ve never played other MMOs, have you? DR is put in place to avoid players cheesing not only PvP through CC spam, but also to avoid it happening in PvE, both to AND from monsters. It needs to be put here too, whether through giving players Defiant or something else.
Yes, I have played several MMOs Actually. If you like, I can list them. A few had diminishing returns on stats even less had diminishing returns on any skills functions.
Feel free to list all the ones with diminishing returns on skills. I am fairly sure for each one you list, I can list 3-4 that do not.
Stuns have hard counter already it called stability,immobility maybe need a lower cap time so it cant be like 20sec but any DR what so ever is a bad idea.
Gotta love all that high skill play talk.
Especially when I see hammer warrs chasing me like crazy when I play a thief and mostly avoiding me on my warr.
Lol. Warriors avoiding warriors? What game are you playing?
As do immobilize and other crowd control affects. The end.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability
The end.
If you’re not a warrior GTFO of WvW.
As do immobilize and other crowd control affects. The end.
Learn 2 Play /enoughsaid
As do immobilize and other crowd control affects. The end.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability
The end.
Stability does not work to avoid immobilize mr smartpants.
Its a condition, not a crowd control though it should be treated like it , as it kinda takes control over ya ( cant move )
I don’t know why diminishing return on CC, didn’t launch with the game.
I read all the replies on this thread, and all the people that are against diminishing returns posted this:
Amirite?
pretty much what i got from it too, jenkar.
forget that there are 8 classes with 5 different trait lines each, that are supposed to be capable of running hundreds of possible (and supposedly viable) builds, and that there is not supposed to be any “trinity” of classes upon which we HAVE to rely on for any game mode … just forget all that.
trait for stability and condi cleanse, run melandru or hoelbrak, always use lemongrass & poultry soup, and have 2 guardians with you at all times if you set foot in WvW
OR
(and here’s a novel idea)
OR they could fix the broken mechanics and actually deliver the myriad of possibilities and lack of class dependency this game is supposed to have.
I’m all for implementing dimishing returns and removing stability. There is just way too much class bias going on with that right now. When it comes to crowd control we need a system which works at least somewhat evenly.
I’m all for implementing dimishing returns and removing stability. There is just way too much class bias going on with that right now. When it comes to crowd control we need a system which works at least somewhat evenly.
Hmmm yeah, i guess removing stability if there are diminishing returns is no big deal… We should keep stunbreakers tho…
I read all the replies on this thread, and all the people that are against diminishing returns posted this:
- From all the 343 different foods in the game you MUST use Bowl of Lemongrass Poultry Soup
- From all the different 63 rune sets in the game you MUST use Superior Runes of Melandru
- If you are roaming, you MUST bring 2 guardians alongside you, or you deserve to be stunlocked to death.
Amirite?
They are most likely against it because they love to spam their cc to the fullest duratiion without getting a penalty, add DR and people will think twice about popping their cd, therefore more skillplay.
CC diminishing return is much viable in pvp games that doesn’t have a system like stability and lots of break-stuns, which is not the case of gw2.
this is what’s wrong with gamers these days, instead of learning how to dodge and getting better at the game, ask for devs to nerf the only thing that gets them killed.
kitten kitten , let me purposely eat this stun early so i have stun immunity so i can spam all my buttons in peace.
real nice guys, casualize the game some more.
this is what’s wrong with gamers these days, instead of learning how to dodge and getting better at the game, ask for devs to nerf the only thing that gets them killed.
kitten kitten , let me purposely eat this stun early so i have stun immunity so i can spam all my buttons in peace.
real nice guys, casualize the game some more.
^ <3 ya Wads
There is a little known secret that the pros keep close to the vest. The will probably get completely angry at me for releases this, but here goes.
Do not stand in front of a zerg wall. Block, dodge, run, do something. But do not stand still and let multiple numerous hammer stuns pound you. Most important of all though, if you are dumb enough to stand there and take the crashing stun wave, do not go on the forums and claim it makes them OP.
I feel like if you’re constantly getting stuck in giant CC outbursts, then you probably deserve to die. For WvW zergs, step a bit to the left and you’ll be alright. Or right. Just don’t stand in front of a hammer train backed up by statics and think you should be able to live through it.
For general PvP, I’ve never had issues with Hammer/Stun warriors/classes. Just dodge. Use blind. Interrupt them, knock them down, stability, invisibility. If you let them combo and lock you down, that’s on you.
As do immobilize and other crowd control affects. The end.
Maybe in a future patch they will just take out crowd control and dodge mechanic because it is to difficult to think about those things while rapidly pushing 1.
So much fun!
As a guard I kinda feel that I’m one of the answers to your dilemma. Stability for the win.
If there were less CC there’d be less of a need for stability. If you could only be CC’d once then you were safe for a while, then what’s the point of stability? just eat the CC, stun break, and continue on.
With the counters they’ve given to CC’s they can’t really put in DR and have it remain balanced, it’d simply screw too many things up.
thiagoperneCC diminishing return is much viable in pvp games that doesn’t have a system like stability and lots of break-stuns, which is not the case of gw2.
That sums it up. Yes some kind of DR is needed, IF the game doesn’t have other answers to heavy CC, which GW2 has, so…
I came from DCUO, they had a DR system in that game, it worked because there was a TON of CC but no stability, and your one answer (block) was actually a bad choice as it’d open you to punishment of other kinds. It’s a viable idea, it works in other games, but those other games don’t have stability, condition removal, and dodges.
I actually prefer this system as at least in DCUO the DR system was pretty inconsistent which was one of the big complaints. In the GW2 system there are counters for everything but they are known. CC coming, have stability up or possibly dodge. If hit with CC stun break or remove conditions. Want to CC, if they have stability you’ll have to strip it or wait it out. I think it’s a nice system that makes sense and is pretty clear.
Yall love to talk about stability like if every class is a boon spammer guardian…
As a guard I kinda feel that I’m one of the answers to your dilemma. Stability for the win.
If there were less CC there’d be less of a need for stability. If you could only be CC’d once then you were safe for a while, then what’s the point of stability? just eat the CC, stun break, and continue on.
With the counters they’ve given to CC’s they can’t really put in DR and have it remain balanced, it’d simply screw too many things up.
thiagoperneCC diminishing return is much viable in pvp games that doesn’t have a system like stability and lots of break-stuns, which is not the case of gw2.
That sums it up. Yes some kind of DR is needed, IF the game doesn’t have other answers to heavy CC, which GW2 has, so…
I came from DCUO, they had a DR system in that game, it worked because there was a TON of CC but no stability, and your one answer (block) was actually a bad choice as it’d open you to punishment of other kinds. It’s a viable idea, it works in other games, but those other games don’t have stability, condition removal, and dodges.
I actually prefer this system as at least in DCUO the DR system was pretty inconsistent which was one of the big complaints. In the GW2 system there are counters for everything but they are known. CC coming, have stability up or possibly dodge. If hit with CC stun break or remove conditions. Want to CC, if they have stability you’ll have to strip it or wait it out. I think it’s a nice system that makes sense and is pretty clear.
Try to use all your stability and condi removals as ranger and say that again, not every class has so much access to that as a guardian.
that’s what guardians are for.
to be locked down by cc, you certainly are facing multiple opponents, why would you expect anything other than death if you don’t have teammates to support you as well?
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.
