Guild Wars 2

Eternal battlegrounds is ruining a lot of peoples wvw experience. Its mostly due to player generated issues, but its got to the point where anet needs to address this.

EBG is where the bags are guaranteed, so it lets people be lazy, they dont need to break objectives to get their enemy to come out as often. If they don’t come out, its easy to find people nearby an objective you can easily retreat to, so ‘roamers’ also flock there. People have forgotten the charm of fightig on the borderlands, where you don’t always have that third enemy on your tail and you can have a truly competitive fight.

Lately the queues of EBG have been getting longer and longer. I’ve seen this happen on several accounts i have across the tiers (i have six paid and one free account). at the same time the borderlands are just becoming a spot to idle in spawn while they wait for their queue to pop for ebg. What’s worse is the growing trend of people blowing emergency waypoints and spamming false information about incoming enemy forces. While the false information has been going on since season 2, the blowing of the ewaypoints have been happening for the last couple months. If you are queued for EBG, then you normally see it jump 5-10 spots everytime someone does it, and if a known commander is doing this, then you can see 25 spots clear out.

So what i am proposing is to remove EOTM as a seperate form of WVW, and alternate it weekly or biweekly with EBG as the center map in wvw. Unlike in traditional wvw, EOTM doesn’t suffer from a lack of pugmanders, so this will help spread out players on different maps and bring an influx of players in for guilds to recruit or reform with.

The only immediate map changes i see necessary in EOTM would be removing the auto turrets, and maybe toning down the transforms and buffs associated with some objectives. Edges to some cliffs/paths may be needed to balance things over time.

While it may not necessarily solve the queue for the center map, it will once again be a map primarily for militia rather than guild groups looking for easy unorganized bags. It will also allow for a more stable WvWvW activity stats as many groups flee to eotm if they do not like who they are matched against for the week.

On a personal level, i’ve never been an EOTM fan because of the lack of its integration into the current matchup and because it became known as a ktrain map vs a true wvw map. Whenever my guild did go there, the bags were too easy due to the level of unorganization there, so having it as a competitive map may change that outlook. It’s a beautifully done map, as is the desert BL, just lacks the people needed to make it more enjoyable. With it in place of EBG, i’d gladly go there.

+1 on this. Would like to see EOTM changed to run on a different modified PvE map each week as well.

EotM was created as a waiting room for people in queue to real WvW. Population is down in WvW and the waiting room is not needed anymore. It actually drains WvW population, and makes WvW worse off.

So it is time to get rid of it.

With that said, the map(with some tweaks here and there) isn’t terrible, and it would be a waste of resources to not use it. So re-purpose it as a third BL map, meaning we get four unique maps in every match-up to play on.

neven.3785:

Unlike in traditional wvw, EOTM doesn’t suffer from a lack of pugmanders, so this will help spread out players on different maps and bring an influx of players in for guilds to recruit or reform with.

“All North American worlds will be matched up with one another as well. Worlds will be matched according to which color they are in the current WvW matchup. For example, all green worlds will be on the same team in the Edge of the Mists”

The color you play on EOTM is a combination of many servers, thus those pugmanders and the population in EOTM are not necessarily of your server or even your current linking.

This would not translate exactly to more numbers for your server or more tags. Additionally when there isn’t a queue the people on EOTM are there and not on regular borderlands for a reason (probably karma rank farmers) and probably don’t want to play WvW. This idea would probably just cause those folks to flock to a PvE karma farm.

No.

We’ve had this discussion already, anything else I say about this will probably get me banned, that’s how strong I feel about a change like that. If you want to see people leave wvw faster than 3 desert bl, go right ahead and replace ebg.

I guess Maguuma really is trying to destroy what’s left of wvw.

Caliburn.1845:

EotM was created as a waiting room for people in queue to real WvW. Population is down in WvW and the waiting room is not needed anymore. It actually drains WvW population, and makes WvW worse off.

So it is time to get rid of it.

With that said, the map(with some tweaks here and there) isn’t terrible, and it would be a waste of resources to not use it. So re-purpose it as a third BL map, meaning we get four unique maps in every match-up to play on.

Probably bad idea get rid of best and most popular game mode.

Xenesis.6389:

No.

We’ve had this discussion already, anything else I say about this will probably get me banned, that’s how strong I feel about a change like that. If you want to see people leave wvw faster than 3 desert bl, go right ahead and replace ebg.

I guess Maguuma really is trying to destroy what’s left of wvw.

My server has no bearing on my opinion. In fact the people who most consider the problem type on mag only live in EBG and only leave it during off hours (sometimes). These sort of people complain about a stale game, yet they are the ones refusing to change things they are in control of. But i know enough that they are not just on Mag, they are prevalent throughout the top 6 servers.

Arenanet has made many changes to the desert BLs since HOT, and its actually a decent map now, its only flaw is people exploiting into keeps and a few siege placement spots that have no counter. The rest of the supposed flaws of the desert BL are player opinions based off the initial launch desert BL. Some of the best skirmishes i’ve had with the enemy have been all over this map, it really gives room to maneuver and use the environment to your advantage.

These people also whined for alpine maps back, they got their wish, but they remain on EBG anyways. They still wish to complain about that one map being desert BL though.

These people also whined for fights, but instead of fostering a competitive environment, they flock together on the same map and feed like sharks at the first smell of blood. It gets so bad that they will grief the enemy groups over and over again, driving out their will to play for the rest of the week. Then they complain later that no one shows up for fights.

Often times the solution is to spread out, go to different BLs and play wvw the way it is meant to be played, not just what you wish it to be. To me a good night in wvw isn’t running around in a blob running over unorganized or poorly organized groups. Its a mixed experience of finding fights of similar sized groups, taking objectives in hotly contested maps, and even showing up to defend the objectives you have taken. But that’s not always a guaranteed win, so many frown on it nowadays.

With getting rid of EBG, if only for a week at a time, we at least force these people to try other maps on all sides. Atleast these maps will have some life breathed into them, maybe even earn enough action to keep groups coming back. Back in the day most guild groups avoided EBG for a reason, and its about time for them to go back to it.

With EOTM, i really don’t know how it will turn out as a map thrown into the mix because with its size. I do think it would be an interesting Beta to try though. Respawns have difficulty getting back so enemy zergs really need to watch how deep they push because attrition will become a factor. What i’m really interested to see is how 2-3 tags on the map at once for each side would turn out.

For a long time now people have been yelling they’d quit over this change or that change. We are at the point now where those who would have left already did, and those of us left, have come to terms with the lack of innovation we’ve seen in our game mode. There still isn’t a better option for Realm vs Realm at the moment so arena net can afford to experiment more, just no more golem weeks :P

Dude you’re on the number one fight server and don’t understand why alpine and ebg are the preferred maps? The simple design gives lots of space to get good clean fights, and yet there are many places where you can quickly run into a choke to gain an advantage in a fight.

Also you stated it yourself on every server you’re on everyone goes to ebg first, there’s a reason for that, when you don’t have numbers to cover multiple maps people will go to the map most likely to find some action, and that’s ebg. They don’t go there because they’re “lazy” they just don’t want to roam around a kitten map for 20 mins looking for something to do especially when no commanders are around.

Desert bl is full of gimmicks, the areas you fight are filled with crap to stumble on during a fight, the chokes and ledges everywhere, it was designed to break up zergs, well congratulations to them only small groups want to be on there for long. The map is big but it always gives the sense that’s it’s cramped and barely any place to have a good fight where you’re not also fighting the ground around you too.

You don’t need to get rid of ebg to force people into other maps as if they don’t know what the other maps are. You basically want to take away the number one fight map to insert the k-train map so that people will leave and go to the borderlands. But be careful in wanted to break something that works perfectly fine just so you can force players into the other maps you want them on.

Instead of thinking ebg is “ruining” players experience when it’s in fact queued every single night, think about what other issues are ruining players experience, like the other maps not being sufficient to players needs and forcing them to look to ebg for fun.

Not everyone shares your opinion of eotm and desert being beautiful fun maps, leave eotm where it is, people go there for a reason and you will also be potentially “ruining” their fun. Desert already grudgingly got into one of the three borderland maps. Let’s not even mention how much work it would take to get eotm ready for wvw, they’ll need to add all the structure upgrades, guild claims, tactivators, that’s time I prefer they spend on making wvw fun not upgrading an old map to replace a perfectly fine map.

If want players on the borderlands then offer fixes for them.

Another issue is that a lot of the open areas on desert BL are also hilly and sloped, which screws up many skills for many classes.

(Also lol Mag player talking about Desert BL, when every T2 and T3 server individually puts more players on Desert BL over one night than Mag does over a week. Legit when did you last see desert BL queued lol? Mag is the biggest offender of “ugh dbl screw that might as well go eotm”)

Namer.9750:

Mag is the biggest offender of “ugh dbl screw that might as well go eotm”)

I think you’re mistaking them for blackgate.

Xenesis.6389:

Namer.9750:

Mag is the biggest offender of “ugh dbl screw that might as well go eotm”)

I think you’re mistaking them for blackgate.

BG at least goes to DBL to ktrain and ppt.

It is a bad idea with no redeeming qualities.

I like this idea.

EotM is a fun map. For me, this outweighs potential colour balance problems. Those can be fixed later.

But.. I worry that the average WvW-er is a brainless zergling and wouldn’t be able to handle change.

Namer.9750:

Xenesis.6389:

Namer.9750:

Mag is the biggest offender of “ugh dbl screw that might as well go eotm”)

I think you’re mistaking them for blackgate.

BG at least goes to DBL to ktrain and ppt.

Meh that’s because TC is on dbl for the past couple weeks, and they like to beat up on the third wheel for points.
XP

This is not a match up thread, so please don’t turn it into one.

Lol ebg the number one fight map. You’ve got to be kidding. All there is in ebg is mindless blobs. That is not a real fight. I like this idea, I think it would bring more to wvw. Eotm was a huge mistake and we all know anet won’t completely delete something. Don’t like the eotm map? Play on alpine for the week that it’s in rotation.

neven.3785:

With getting rid of EBG, if only for a week at a time, we at least force these people to try other maps on all sides. Atleast these maps will have some life breathed into them, maybe even earn enough action to keep groups coming back. Back in the day most guild groups avoided EBG for a reason, and its about time for them to go back to it.

With EOTM, i really don’t know how it will turn out as a map thrown into the mix because with its size. I do think it would be an interesting Beta to try though. Respawns have difficulty getting back so enemy zergs really need to watch how deep they push because attrition will become a factor. What i’m really interested to see is how 2-3 tags on the map at once for each side would turn out.

For a long time now people have been yelling they’d quit over this change or that change. We are at the point now where those who would have left already did, and those of us left, have come to terms with the lack of innovation we’ve seen in our game mode. There still isn’t a better option for Realm vs Realm at the moment so arena net can afford to experiment more, just no more golem weeks :P

I agree with some of the problems you’re seeing, but you’re looking to treat the symptoms of a larger problem: lack of reward.

Right now there is next to zero incentive to care about anything but fights, and I think you’re correct in identifying that EBG is (right or wrong) perceived as the best place to get them most of the time.

I think the first step is to introduce a greater incentive towards winning your matchup, and see how the meta reacts before tweaking any further. It’s definitely not the end all solution to all of WvW’s woes, but it’s much better to start taking steps in the right direction than trying to make broad sweeping change.

As for what this new incentive should be, I’m unsure. I don’t think that denying people EBG is it, though. “Forcing” people to play a certain way through changes is, in my opinion, not the best design decision (regardless of Anet applying these techniques even now).

Looking at past games, DAOC incentivised by giving your realm pretty significant buffs while you held objectives. I’m not sure that’d work here though, as it’d lead to more grief about X server with Y many blobs holding all of the bonuses and how “unfair” it is (though to be fair, with the current state of server stacking it’s not the most illegitimate complaint, but that’s another thread).

If the problem’s root cause is simply population drop, then a possible answer is to lower the maximum players per BG. I don’t see this going well, as what I think will happen is that lowering the population cuts roamers/small groups out of the BG in favour of the blob moving around the map.

An even further stretch would be to try and establish gentleman’s agreements across servers/guilds. This is something that “somewhat” existed in the past, but it’s not impossible to reestablish. Try and get guilds to agree to limited size, limited groups per zone, or to focus a set of two maps on a given day. We have the ability to “create our own fun” with some cooperation, though the extent to which it can be ruined by uncooperative parties is a mitigating factor.

tl;dr- Forcing people off the map doesn’t treat the root problem: lack of reward for doing anything but looking for fights in EBG.

Asteria.5419:

Lol ebg the number one fight map. You’ve got to be kidding. All there is in ebg is mindless blobs. That is not a real fight.

Obviously, do you think guild groups are on 24/7? There’s a lot of dead times before your main guilds log on for fights, they’ll go to ebg if they can or wherever the fight is. Every other time people go to the map that has a tag up and running, it’s that simple, roamers will roam but people who want to fight in a group and maybe their guild isn’t on, will look for a tag.

If you think ebg is a mindless blob map what the hell you think eotm is and will do in ebg’s place? lol. All that move will do is move the mindless uplevel blob from eotm into wvw.

If players are not flocking to dbl or abl in dead times, think about why and fix those problems, don’t curb kick the one map people actually do go to and expect it will fix those problems, you’ll probably kitten off people out of wvw instead.

Then how about throw out some ideas that would help instead of knocking this person’s down?

Asteria.5419:

Then how about throw out some ideas that would help instead of knocking this person’s down?

I already have, you think this is the first time this discussion has come up?

I’m telling the op to bring up solutions, instead of booting a map and screw over wvw so they can get people on their favorite maps.

I support this suggestion. there is plenty of things for militia to do in all maps even if there is no tag, having people always jamming into ebg is killing the other maps

I like eotm and it is fun to play in it, but I don’t like it as a WvW map. It is essentially a larger and worse dbl with too much gimmicks, too much cliffs and too long travel distance. I hope whatever new maps we do get will follow the simple, elegant and easily navigable philosophy just like the current ebg and abl.

People need to also keep in mind, when you force more players onto the borderlands, there will be less opportunity to roam and havoc, bigger groups will be around. The players looking for a fight will choose alpines more often instead. Are roamers and havoc players going to come in here complaining about that afterwards? Think entirely about the effect the changes could have down the road and not a quick pick me up to get people to play borderlands.

Like I said look for solutions to attract players there without having to banish maps.

lmao, this eotm commander guy cracks me up. “so gud b/c I tag up and run around map avoiding zergs”

do you “command” pve zergs with that tag up too big guy? I hear you’re needed in ember bay

for the record the OP is right. EOTM was a waiting area and now it’s time to get rid of it.

SniffyCube.6107:

lmao, this eotm commander guy cracks me up. “so gud b/c I tag up and run around map avoiding zergs”

do you “command” pve zergs with that tag up too big guy? I hear you’re needed in ember bay

for the record the OP is right. EOTM was a waiting area and now it’s time to get rid of it.

Well sounds to NA problem to me. You guys probably have weekly overgrown grub raids.

In my opinion that’s a bad idea: people usually go to EB to get some big fights, because map is created in such a way, that sooner or later big fights happen. And we like big fights. Without any cliffs to fall off. That’s why nobody wants to go to the desert borderland, because it is too much similar to EoTM, too big and too vertical. I don’t think many people enjoy that kind of WvW …

Suljo.6310:

In my opinion that’s a bad idea: people usually go to EB to get some big fights, because map is created in such a way, that sooner or later big fights happen. And we like big fights. Without any cliffs to fall off. That’s why nobody wants to go to the desert borderland, because it is too much similar to EoTM, too big and too vertical. I don’t think many people enjoy that kind of WvW …

I enjoy cliffs.

Even swapping a map is too much work for the WvW team.

It took them a year to replace one borderland.

Xillllix.3485:

Even swapping a map is too much work for the WvW team.

It took them a year to replace one borderland.

Yet from the time they reintroduced dbbl and added to monuments to South center map + the shrine jumping pads with bird/fire graphics was a fair short turn around.

Work being done in a timely manner is possible.

Additionally i’d like to mention that both of those updates I had seen on this actual forum as player based suggestions to enhance dbbl.

Jacion.6302:

Xillllix.3485:

Even swapping a map is too much work for the WvW team.

It took them a year to replace one borderland.

Work being done in a timely manner is possible.

Additionally i’d like to mention that both of those updates I had seen on this actual forum as player based suggestions to enhance dbbl.

The DBL changes may look like they have been done quickly enough because of the poll, but for how long was the map was removed from the game? Anyway it’s too late now, unless the next expansion is 10x larger and better than HoT I don’t see how they can recover.

neven.3785:

It’s a beautifully done map, as is the desert BL, just lacks the people needed to make it more enjoyable. With it in place of EBG, i’d gladly go there.

its definately the best of all 4 wvw maps but it would need some rework. the blue and green inner keeps have no walls while the red keep is vulnerable from all sides.

not that it matters much as there is always 1 server who is stronger and can deal with a vulnerable keep but after all the crying about the desert map you can be sure the desert map was the last big map update for wvw.

Zhuul.1759:

neven.3785:

It’s a beautifully done map, as is the desert BL, just lacks the people needed to make it more enjoyable. With it in place of EBG, i’d gladly go there.

its definately the best of all 4 wvw maps but it would need some rework. the blue and green inner keeps have no walls while the red keep is vulnerable from all sides.

not that it matters much as there is always 1 server who is stronger and can deal with a vulnerable keep but after all the crying about the desert map you can be sure the desert map was the last big map update for wvw.

Too many cliffs. Just the need to loop around so many staircases kitten me off. I just want to get to the other side kitten. The chance I’ll find something interesting walking through all the staircases is 1/500.

Jacion.6302:

Additionally i’d like to mention that both of those updates I had seen on this actual forum as player based suggestions to enhance dbbl.

I like to pretend it was solely because of my suggestion, but im sure tons of others requested the same thing and the topics got long buried :P

Back on topic though, its great to see this much support for this suggestion

I don’t know about anyone else, but if they do this map swap idea, I think it’d be time for me to stop playing gw2. I don’t think many people who like the EoTM map, maybe it’s just me, idk. I also was not in support of the desert borderlands, I feel like they’re too pveish, and haven’t gone on them since they were added. Again idk if it’s just me, but I would hate this change

I would rather have a flat barren landscape. Just me?