At the moment PPK quite a bit out of balance with PPT. To solve this i think several things need to be done
1. Diminishing returns put in place for PPK. The more you kill someone in a time frame, the less they are worth. This is already in place for wxp, so i dont see how it cant be applied to this. PPK related to stomps w/ bloodlust should still award the full extra point since generally blobbed down people never get stomped.
2. Tie the loot table into Diminishing returns as well. This will remove the incentive to farming for bags at a spawn point. Increasing reward track tick could be a way to balance this out a bit.
3. Remove Kill and Death statistics from the API so KDR is non existent. It does not contribute to the gameplay in anyway.
Good WvWvW play is relative to what a player believes the game mode is about, whether its fighting, defending objectives, assaulting keeps, roaming, or havoc grouping a map. But most can agree that farming enemy players is not good WvWvW. Its great for the people getting the bags, and great for their egos, but not so great for the health of the game.
With the way PPT and PPK are balanced now, a large group hitting a smaller objective will often be ignored because people know that while you may win through attrition, you will still negatively contribute to your score in the long run. And several of those fight focused groups also are now afraid of losing and affecting their teams Kill/death ratios. I do miss the days when PPK was worthless and groups could dive right into the action with the only drawback being giving loot to your enemy. While i don’t think it needs to return to being worthless, i do think it needs to be greatly reduced so other play styles besides out blobbing are represented more.
(edited by neven.3785)
The current systems are fine.
And to comment on this… “But most can agree that farming enemy players is not good WvWvW.”… Sorry, but no. It’s fun, an effective tactic and killing pixels is what pvp minded players signed up for.
Edit- “i do think it needs to be greatly reduced so other play styles besides out blobbing are represented more.”… There are already a number of “styles” to play and players do them. You want to spread out players more? Then ask the devs to create better support skills and designs so players aren’t forced to stack in large groups to gain the support benefits, and have more maps in play with open area objectives for solo and small groups to contribute even more.
(edited by Swagger.1459)
The current systems are fine.
And to comment on this… “But most can agree that farming enemy players is not good WvWvW.”… Sorry, but no. It’s fun, an effective tactic and killing pixels is what pvp minded players signed up for.
…..
until said spawn camp leaves no one to fight of course for the rest of the match…… OP’s server tanked from T1 because of “nothing to fight”. How long will the same tactic work with other opponents before they sit out a week when matched with said server?
And to comment on this… “But most can agree that farming enemy players is not good WvWvW.”… Sorry, but no. It’s fun, an effective tactic and killing pixels is what pvp minded players signed up for.
Nah, if the opponents are being farmed then as a “PvP minded player” that gets dull pretty quick, because it is crappy PvP. That many WvW players enjoy that tells you all you need to know about how “PvP” much of the WvW playerbase is overall.
The real complaint is that you all want more players playing at any time of day or night, so all “things” are more even/balanced/fairer… None of the suggestions by the op do that, it’s going to take some major wvw updates and improvements on the devs part.
I’d like to suggest that some of you start looking at the bigger issues, not how to change the inconsequential stuff that won’t do anything to address the real issues.
(edited by Swagger.1459)
I only agree with no.1 because that curtails potential abuse. I also believe in curbing factors that may lead people to believe that they’re giving negative contribution (and thus not play at all) which is why I thought “No PPK for outnumbered” to be a decent idea.
I don’t agree with no.2, because I don’t think that would discourage people from spawn camping. Essentially, people do it because they can. It’s like ganking random people— it really doesn’t matter if they drop a bag or not. The point of spawn camping is to be an kitten, and maybe demoralize the other team from coming out. Farming bags is just a side effect. If people want to go for a bag farm, then they should pull back a bit in order to trick their victims into thinking they have a chance and thus make more attempts. This is why people gamble money even on games of dubious chances rather than risk their money on say, a game with a expert chess player.
3 I think is silly and nothing more than a placebo. KDR isn’t part of the game and shouldn’t be; it’s a statistic derived from gameplay. How many people actually go check their KDR for reasons either than ego? How many people play just to keep their KDR high? “Omg run u scrublord, you’re going to mess up our KDR” (Don’t answer that) And if people are getting slaughtered, it’s readily apparent.
This is the equivalent of setting your weight scales to be lighter for guests.
(edited by ArchonWing.9480)
At the moment PPK quite a bit out of balance with PPT.
Based on what?
Playstyles are, actually, impacted by scoring systems, even though there are groups of people who will try to tell you that they aren’t.
Playstyles have changed as the scoring has changed. They will continue to do so.
Ultimately, we need matchups that are balanced by more than just population numbers. The way to get there is through scoring changes, because we’ve already seen what happens when matches are set based on numbers alone.
At the moment PPK quite a bit out of balance with PPT. To solve this i think several things need to be done
1. Diminishing returns put in place for PPK. The more you kill someone in a time frame, the less they are worth. This is already in place for wxp, so i dont see how it cant be applied to this. PPK related to stomps w/ bloodlust should still award the full extra point since generally blobbed down people never get stomped.
2. Tie the loot table into Diminishing returns as well. This will remove the incentive to farming for bags at a spawn point. Increasing reward track tick could be a way to balance this out a bit.
3. Kills to Death Ratio should be affected by this diminishing returns, Deaths could remain the same, since no one should run into a meat grinder without some sort of penalty. But those killed over and over again should only raise the score by a fractional amount. Some people see that KDR and are demoralized when it gets above 2, this will help normalize the statistic.
Good WvWvW play is relative to what a player believes the game mode is about, whether its fighting, defending objectives, assaulting keeps, roaming, or havoc grouping a map. But most can agree that farming enemy players is not good WvWvW. Its great for the people getting the bags, and great for their egos, but not so great for the health of the game.
With the way PPT and PPK are balanced now, a large group hitting a smaller objective will often be ignored because people know that while you may win through attrition, you will still negatively contribute to your score in the long run. And several of those fight focused groups also are now afraid of losing and affecting their teams Kill/death ratios. I do miss the days when PPK was worthless and groups could dive right into the action with the only drawback being giving loot to your enemy. While i don’t think it needs to return to being worthless, i do think it needs to be greatly reduced so other play styles besides out blobbing are represented more.
Yes.
Am I the only one that doesn’t PPK for loot or reward track, but just the excitement of the hunt?
They could implement all they want, reducing EXP or loot or reward track…id still PPK as much then as I do now. Its the thrill of the hunt/kill for me. The loot/exp is just a small bonus to me…thats all.
I’ve never thought that PPK belonged in the game because it punishes risky gameplay and encourages people to not play (and by that I mean stuff like smaller groups standing around to let a zerg take an objective rather than try to defend it, for example), which is less fun for everyone overall, win or lose, and because it exacerbates the problems of population imbalance in the score. Obviously, whether or not we have PPK isn’t going to make population imbalance problems go away, but it tends to make a runaway match run away even further, although it could make a close match closer.
People cried about not having PPK until they got it, and I expect it’s here to stay, but I agree that it should have diminishing returns on the score.
I don’t agree that it should affect loot. Loot is bad enough as it is in WvW. The last thing we need to do is make it worse in any way, shape or form.
And the kill/death ratio stuff is irrelevant.
ppk isn’t even a big factor in the score unless it’s prime time. PPK means nothing most of the score comes from hitting doors and holding structures. If anything ppk needs a boost.
No.
PPT and k-training in wvw are the worst things about it. I came here to fight other players, not an npc.
Even as someone who essentially embodies the PPK life by just running around by myself trying to find fights, I agree that PPK actually makes groups less willing to fight, especially if you’re up against higher numbers or a known guild group as simply giving up the objective and capping it back after the enemy leaves in most cases is less detrimental to your score then losing a fight, even if you end up keeping the objective.
However, I also think that it’s refreshing being rewarded for non PPT work making it “worth” it for me to forgo capping empty towers and camps in favour of straight hunting enemy players and rewarding a more aggressive style of play.
With that in mind I thought of 2 simple suggestions for PPK to keep it in the game, but reward skillful aggressive play instead of just making outnumbered situations worse then they already are.
1. Remove PPK earned against any player with a outnumbered buff – this is pretty self explanatory. EDIT: Apparently this was already added.
2. Triple PPK earned for any player with an outnumbered buff – this encourages outnumbered groups to fight even larger groups and have it be worth it.
With these two changes, PPK would serve to reward excellent fighting skills and aggression rather then reward simply having higher numbers.
(edited by Digikid.7230)
Feb 22 patch notes say you no longer give ppk if you’re outnumbered, not sure if this works though.
If you think PPK is the issue, you’re looking in the wrong place.
The worth of PPK took a huuuuuge dump when Anet in their glorious wisdom decided to throw their arms up in the air and say “kitten it, PPT isnt strong enough for dominating server, we need moar, moar, mooooooar” and introduce severly unbalanced tier based PPT.
It was fine before after the point increase.
(edited by Dawdler.8521)
At the moment PPK quite a bit out of balance with PPT. To solve this i think several things need to be done
1. Diminishing returns put in place for PPK. The more you kill someone in a time frame, the less they are worth. This is already in place for wxp, so i dont see how it cant be applied to this. PPK related to stomps w/ bloodlust should still award the full extra point since generally blobbed down people never get stomped.
2. Tie the loot table into Diminishing returns as well. This will remove the incentive to farming for bags at a spawn point. Increasing reward track tick could be a way to balance this out a bit.
3. Kills to Death Ratio should be affected by this diminishing returns, Deaths could remain the same, since no one should run into a meat grinder without some sort of penalty. But those killed over and over again should only raise the score by a fractional amount. Some people see that KDR and are demoralized when it gets above 2, this will help normalize the statistic.
Good WvWvW play is relative to what a player believes the game mode is about, whether its fighting, defending objectives, assaulting keeps, roaming, or havoc grouping a map. But most can agree that farming enemy players is not good WvWvW. Its great for the people getting the bags, and great for their egos, but not so great for the health of the game.
With the way PPT and PPK are balanced now, a large group hitting a smaller objective will often be ignored because people know that while you may win through attrition, you will still negatively contribute to your score in the long run. And several of those fight focused groups also are now afraid of losing and affecting their teams Kill/death ratios. I do miss the days when PPK was worthless and groups could dive right into the action with the only drawback being giving loot to your enemy. While i don’t think it needs to return to being worthless, i do think it needs to be greatly reduced so other play styles besides out blobbing are represented more.
I disagree about almost everything except 1 aspect of your post. PPT and PPK were almost balanced before auto upgrades and T3 point scaling, now its stupid rediculous just how much PPT gives towards weekly totals vs. PPK.
PPT also further encourages holding empty maps, zerging at off-times, etc. etc. Anotherwords, inactive playstyles, its about equivalent to having everyone just afk on the map and winning for it. All the stuff that has been the major issues with the scoring are related to this.
The only thing I do agree with is that smaller groups should give a lot less or no PPK when getting ran over by blobs. The recent change to PPK that players do not give any PPK when they have outnumbered buff on them is a small start, but much more needs to be done in this direction. The game really needs some sort of a local, or tiered, outnumbered system, but I think its way too old for such major changes and may be just not worth the effort and resources anymore.
Changing scoring, be it PPT or PPK or whatever else, doesn’t improve the gameplay. If you don’t like the scoring system just ignore it, it is meaningless anyway.
PPK problem is that stupid players try to fight even if they don’t have any chance to to win. If you can’t win you should avoid dying.
Ya it’s pretty sad when wvw guilds end raid an hour early because enemy “we just want fights” server, that tanked their rating, squats in unclaimed objectives to bait fights 50 v 30.
Am I the only one that doesn’t PPK for loot or reward track, but just the excitement of the hunt?
They could implement all they want, reducing EXP or loot or reward track...id still PPK as much then as I do now. Its the thrill of the hunt/kill for me. The loot/exp is just a small bonus to me...thats all.
+1. I am in it for the HUNT. I was raised into MMO systems that comprised of open-world PK, inventory dropped on death, and de-level on death. I will roam til I find your soul. I would go so far as to suggest that ANET implement a truly open-world PK system of Tyria, but we all know ANET are carebears and cater to their PVE population and thus, will likely never happen. In any case, WvW is the closest thing to this ideology.
If I can benefit my server from doing what I do, then thats a bonus to the server. As for loot or PPK or any other point scheme goes, I honestly dont care. I’ll still hunt you.
Long live KOS (kill-on-sight) lists.
(edited by Tyyphoon.5301)
Please no, I strongly disagree with the OP. OP has been compromised. OP lives in a land where they don’t know that PPK has already been severely nerfed and no longer awards the stronger server with points if the weaker server is outnumbered.
Basically OP doesn’t like that he or his group should be penalized for being bad at the game, and just wants the PPK system gone so they don’t have to worry about giving the enemy points becasue they are bad at playing the game.
Ultimately PPT and PPK are just means to influence player behavior within WvW.
PPT has led to k-trains and the associated anti-fun anti-fights mentality.
PPK has led to blobbing(even more) and avoidance of fights you cannot win, which has also led to an anti-fun, anti-fights mentality.
The mechanics of WvW need to be designed to promote the behavior we the player base think are fun.
Repurpose the outnumbered buff for instance. When you have it on, it means purely that you are outnumbered on the map. Maybe you have 9 players, and the enemy have 10 players. But the change would be that only the side with the fewer numbers would get PPK from kills, or perhaps even by extension have it count towards server KDR.
This would promote behavior of looking for fights where you are outnumbered, instead of avoiding any fight where you are outnumbered.
When you have the outnumbered buff you don’t provide PPK. ANET already changed that.
Feb 22
World vs. World
General
Being killed while outnumbered no longer grants any war score to the enemy team.
At the End of the Day it is “World” vs “World” not 9-10 guys vs 80. Get better as a “World” or a Guild or a player
Stop begging ANET for nerfs just becasue you don’t want to change or put in effort.
—————————————————————————————
I don’t like how people disregard WvW as being a Competitive game mode, but are not competitive players or want to be competitive. So they want everything to be dumbed down like PVE.
(edited by Warlord.9074)
Basically OP doesn’t like that he or his group should be penalized for being bad at the game, and just wants the PPK system gone so they don’t have to worry about giving the enemy points becasue they are bad at playing the game.
What is being bad at the game? Unlike yourself, i play a more well rounded version of WvW. I’ve been in fight guilds during their prime and during the glory days. I respect that form of fighting, and i can do that myself, but back then we actually liked to fight skilled people more than just unorganized blobs. The numbers of groups ran 15-20 on avg and there were many groups across the maps, untagged. We even were in the same guild for years based around this principle after that first fight scene collapsed.
Nowadays, i play for fights, i play for havoc on active maps, i play defense, and i roam. I do not like to ktrain and i do not like to blob. You may call me out for being in CTH, but we get quite a bit of fights and we are willing to fight when we aren’t guaranteed a win. Sure we cap objectives and sure we put effort in sometimes breaking objectives or locking in a third, but that does not make us one of those dreaded PPT guilds you talk down on all the time. Sure we don’t comp up our raid, and force people to play, but who cares, this game is old, the competitiveness you want in a guild is long dead.
Your vision of what a guild should be failed, you left and moved on to VR. Of course you would disagree 100% with what i have said, your new guild lives for that KDR, lives for that spawn camp, and lives for constant abuse of the player base. My suggestions are very much based against your new homes playstyle, but also its based on wanting to give people the reason to defend again, wanting lesser skilled groups to keep running in at the enemy and improve themselves without having players like yourself yelling at them in team chat for tanking the score, or tanking precious KDR. People think its just a number, and many of us do agree, but there sure is a lot of people who take pride in that useless statistic.
The nerf to PPK when outnumbered wasn’t enough. You often need 2 or 3 groups on a map just to split up guilds from running together, which causes that buff to disappear.
When you have the outnumbered buff you don’t provide PPK. ANET already changed that.
Feb 22
World vs. World
GeneralBeing killed while outnumbered no longer grants any war score to the enemy team.
At the End of the Day it is “World” vs “World” not 9-10 guys vs 80. Get better as a “World” or a Guild or a player
Stop begging ANET for nerfs just becasue you don’t want to change or put in effort.
—————————————————————————————
I don’t like how people disregard WvW as being a Competitive game mode, but are not competitive players or want to be competitive. So they want everything to be dumbed down like PVE.
Exactly.
The nerf to PPK when outnumbered wasn’t enough. You often need 2 or 3 groups on a map just to split up guilds from running together, which causes that buff to disappear.
I’m still waiting to hear on what basis do you claim that PPK is out of balance with PPT.
The nerf to PPK when outnumbered wasn’t enough. You often need 2 or 3 groups on a map just to split up guilds from running together, which causes that buff to disappear.
I’m still waiting to hear on what basis do you claim that PPK is out of balance with PPT.
Quite a few times i have seen Home BL in shambles, EBG down to a keep and a tower, and the other two BLs have almost no presence except for a tower and a couple camps, yet the server still wins the skirmishes with a significant margin through sheer number of kills.
If you are able to kill people at the rate where you completely negate the need to capture or defend objectives then its out of balance. You don’t see this happen in spvp… to ignore all 3 nodes and just try to kill the enemy for the win, it just doesn’t work, the points per tick are balanced with kills to entice people to move more or face a loss. Teams who run as one group often lose matchups as well.
In my opinion, if you can’t keep your 1/3 of EBG + your home BL Diamond + 1/3 of any where else in your control most of the time, you shouldn’t be winning the skirmish regardless of how many people you kill. Many do play for score (or statistics) not just the battle. I do not expect this to fix wvw, i just hope to pull thoe 5-10 people out of a blob who actually care about that score to actively play the map and find out theres more than just 1 1 1 1 1 through the skill lag in wvw
Your vision of what a guild should be failed, you left and moved on to VR.
Wasn’t my vision, my idea, or my call and my vision was not the vision it was your vision of casualness, that’s why I left and that’s why it failed get it strait. PPK is a non factor. Perhaps you missed all those times Maguuma has the most KDR but still loses skirmishes to BG becasue they go ham on PPT while dodging fights. I think that you are seeing a problem with WvW that exists and blaming the wrong thing as the cause.
People wanted credit for their time in WvW, the players who roamed, and ran 15-20s that just fighted and didn’t PPT so PPK was buffed to allow them to contribute to the war score and not be dead weight. Before this happened all of the PPTers complained about fight guilds and roamers becasue they were contributing nothing to the score and taking of map Q space and were being called useless and dead weight.
PPT is old and tiresome to people who have played the game for 5 years now. There is no rewards for PPT, there is no point in winning matchups other to be put in a desired Tier or to get a certain matchup with as similar population. Maybe people pat themselfs on the back for winning in PPT but it is meaningless.
What is meaningful is winning fights, and farming other players for bags as there is an actual reward for that its called getting Loots and beating other players and having a competition. The problem with the game has nothing to do with PPK, it has everything to do with PPT is not rewarding at all, the rewards are reward tracks and loot bags.
Everyone has the right to play the game however they want. If you have the right to play as 10 disorganized players who just are kitten ing around becasue that is fun for you. Other people have the right to comp up and fight blobs or spend thier time just killing other players for enjoyment and bags.
We already had the game for 4 years the way that you want it and it sucked I don’t know why anyone would want to go back to that. You seem to have a selective memory about it.
(edited by Warlord.9074)
The nerf to PPK when outnumbered wasn’t enough. You often need 2 or 3 groups on a map just to split up guilds from running together, which causes that buff to disappear.
I’m still waiting to hear on what basis do you claim that PPK is out of balance with PPT.
Quite a few times i have seen Home BL in shambles, EBG down to a keep and a tower, and the other two BLs have almost no presence except for a tower and a couple camps, yet the server still wins the skirmishes with a significant margin through sheer number of kills.
That used to happen before the change to PPT I’d be very surprised if it had happened since then. I would think the only way it could happen now is if no servers had any T2 or T3 objectives, a highly specific circumstance that might only occur at the beginning of reset and therefore hardly a basis for stating that PPK is out of whack.
Definition of PPT is PVE
1st Part
Hitting a non player controlled structure such as a wall or a gate, with a piece of shiege that replaces the players skills. Killing a non player enemy. PVE
2nd Part
Sitting in an objective on a piece of siege waiting for an enemy to come, that replaces the players skills.
^^^^^^^This is not fun to me or any of the players that I play with becasue we come to WvW to kill other players. And the players that play the game like this makes us want to kill them even more becasue it is distasteful.
The current system has gone through many many tweeks. It’s in a good place. I suggest getting better. If you’re getting farmed, there’s 3 exits to every spawn, or just swap maps.
PPK is funny, it gave Destro fuel for almost a year.
Definition of PPT is PVE
1st Part
Hitting a non player controlled structure such as a wall or a gate, with a piece of shiege that replaces the players skills. Killing a non player enemy. PVE2nd Part
Sitting in an objective on a piece of siege waiting for an enemy to come, that replaces the players skills.^^^^^^^This is not fun to me or any of the players that I play with becasue we come to WvW to kill other players. And the players that play the game like this makes us want to kill them even more becasue it is distasteful.
If you go through a broken door, kill 2 enemies trying to protect their tower from their enemies and then walk into the capping circle at 50% and proceed to cap it, did you still by definition do PvE?
I have to agree that PPK is still an overpowered mechanic in terms of scoring. They should just add random raid boss spawns in WvW like once a day… The team that beats it gets 5 victory points and the person that does the most damage to it gets a legendary precursor.
/s
So here is what these ppk kdr tryhard people want.
NO npcs, no towers, no keeps, no siege, no camps and no rewards.
Anet should just make another eotm(smaller obviously but bigger than the guild hall arena cause apparently that is too small) with nothing in it just 2-3 sign up teams per map(from multiple servers) with 30-40 max on each side and YOLO into each other (no rewards just a score and have it reset every few days or each reset). Let them have their game play. Maybe that will get rid of a few blobs from wvw.
So as a newish player, I value the totality of the wvw experience. I see why PPK should have a place, AND I definitely like the more rounded version of wvw that the op describes; I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive. PPK contributes to warscore based on skill, but doesn’t involve strategy; tactics, yes… strategy, no. I perosnally am delighted to see the continuing impact that strategic decisions have on the make-up of a map. The drop of a well-placed ballista so, that you can take an objective, what upgardes to pursue for an objective… learning about that appeals to me, and thus I very much enjoy the PPT aspect. Don’t get me wrong, I also have a ton of fun blobbing, and appreciate what the better-known commanders do for my server. The only issue I see is when the server’s culture takes it one extreme or another.
My solution wouldn’t be to change the scoring, since I think PPT and PPK are balanced when there is a balancd server. Dare I suggest letting players vote for which server they fight each week? Servers with more balanced populations can fight amongst themsleves, immersing in the totality of the experience, and the fight guilds can embrace PPK amongst themselves. Then it would give seemingly unhappy types like Warlord a clear vision about what each server is like, and perhaps incentive to transfer off his current server.
I have to agree that PPK is still an overpowered mechanic in terms of scoring.
Why? What do you base this on?
Spawn Camping makes me LoL. Even after all these years people still forget there’s 3 ways out of spawn. Use the other 2 when the most obvious way out is being camped.
SMH
Spawn Camping makes me LoL. Even after all these years people still forget there’s 3 ways out of spawn. Use the other 2 when the most obvious way out is being camped.
SMH
That’s a fair thing to say and yet,
Avoiding an easily accessible fight is looked down upon and results in spawn camping.
There is little to be gained from using another exit out of spawn unless a server likes avoiding fights to back cap stuff. If the server could take a fight in the first place they wouldn’t be shoved all the way back into spawn.
This is the result of players stacking a server/intentionally tanking. I’m no spvp expert but I cannot recall people intentionally tanking their rating to farm lower ranked players. Food for thought for servers claiming to just want fights to compete against.
Perhaps #3 was a bit much and instead Anet should be not giving kill death statistics at all and KDR should disappear.
I have edited option 3 to correspond with this
(edited by neven.3785)
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