Guild Wars 2

The Condi meta is and has been overwhelming power.

While we have toughness to mitigate power, the closest thing we have to Condi mitigation is having our revs spam resistance.

I suggest a new stat that functions the same way as toughness does, but for Condi damage.
This will require players to evenly split both stats to gain survivability. Having toughness act as a catch-all for both would make it too strong, but if there’s 2 different stats players had to choose between then it would be balanced.

Klipso.8653:

The Condi meta is and has been overwhelming power.

While we have toughness to mitigate power, the closest thing we have to Condi mitigation is having our revs spam resistance.

I suggest a new stat that functions the same way as toughness does, but for Condi damage.
This will require players to evenly split both stats to gain survivability. Having toughness act as a catch-all for both would make it too strong, but if there’s 2 different stats players had to choose between then it would be balanced.

hello from power rev, power guard, power scrapper, power druid, power mes

also, l2p from the above, and i have the builds for the classes i didn’t mention, just not enough time to play them.

We are not debating which is stronger. Condi wins with far less effort.

I am suggesting a way to balance the field

there is a stat intended to greatly improve your survivability against conditions [which skipped your armor] and it is vitality.

and actually it works just as you said – if you get only toughness you will be laughting at power builds, but die really quickly to conditions, and if you stack up on alot of vitality with no toughtness you will be abel to sane level of conditions for long enought to grab next heal/condi cleanse, kill the guy spamming at you… but die very fast to power build due to their higher spike against targets without enought toughness.

all working as intended….

as long as the amount of conditions being dished out stays within specific parameters – and this should be area to work on balancing them…..

Except for the fact vitality also helps negate the efficacy of power damage based on the same argument about relative health.

That said, I don’t think the answer is in new stats or build-based counters. Condition damage application, just like boons bust needs to drop down on a number of builds, and in those builds/classes/sets, needs to be consolidated into fewer types of conditions to give cleanses more usability while not affecting much of the outgoing potential damage.

Or, just remove Dire/TB and the problems largely vanish because people won’t be running tank builds with maximized damage per tick.

And this is totally doable, given ANet’s recent history for making major changes to gear, and how they’ve done the exact same thing when adding in Dire to begin with.

DeceiverX.8361:

Except for the fact vitality also helps negate the efficacy of power damage based on the same argument about relative health.

you should really try once facing power warrior in all vita, no toughtness build
[point in case – increment on health points means nothing against power builds if there is not enougth toughness to back it up, due to how power-armor ineraction goes]

DeceiverX.8361:

That said, I don’t think the answer is in new stats or build-based counters. Condition damage application, just like boons bust needs to drop down on a number of builds, and in those builds/classes/sets, needs to be consolidated into fewer types of conditions to give cleanses more usability while not affecting much of the outgoing potential damage.

well I agree that there is a need to do something about condis, but it would be as I mentioned not adding new stat that basically duplicates what other one was meant to be doing by design, but by working with conditions themselves – their amounts, amounts of stacks you can apply etc.

what I think should be done would be aimed at going back to the roots of what conditions were meant for – they were supposed to be – as far as I know – sustained damage over time – not a spikey thing that kills you within seconds when setup right with you not having enought purges to deal wit heall of it – spikes should be the domain of crit-based power builds.

DeceiverX.8361:

Or, just remove Dire/TB and the problems largely vanish because people won’t be running tank builds with maximized damage per tick.

And this is totally doable, given ANet’s recent history for making major changes to gear, and how they’ve done the exact same thing when adding in Dire to begin with.

well from what I have seen I’d say problem is not of dire/trailblazer sets on their own – but the problem is that within current situation condi damage is all you need to get your damage efficiency topped on many builds – so you can pull off full condi based spike potential without sacrificing your tankiness while you cannot hope for anything like that when running PTV, be it power, toughtness, vita or precision, toughness vita [does the second one even exist atm in game? would be lovely if it did ]

so the potential “fix” in my opinion should involve bringing back the need of condi duration [expertise?] to condition based builds to top their damage efficiency, while lowering their spike.. it could also require several nerfs to availability of condi cleanses to not ruing viability of condi builds as well.

DeceiverX.8361:

And this is totally doable, given ANet’s recent history for making major changes to gear, and how they’ve done the exact same thing when adding in Dire to begin with.

That was literally the only time, and only because they removed Magic Find from gear altogether.

Every successful guild on BG that we (JQ) face is using a power meta.

They use a coordinated Revenant CoR / Phase Smash bomb.

We should be discussing how 5+ people being instantly downed by CoR from 1200 range is bad for the game.

In addition to the fact the meta is no longer condi I will add the condi builds were damaged quite badly by the food nerf.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

DeceiverX.8361:

Except for the fact vitality also helps negate the efficacy of power damage based on the same argument about relative health.

you should really try once facing power warrior in all vita, no toughtness build
[point in case – increment on health points means nothing against power builds if there is not enougth toughness to back it up, due to how power-armor ineraction goes]

DeceiverX.8361:

That said, I don’t think the answer is in new stats or build-based counters. Condition damage application, just like boons bust needs to drop down on a number of builds, and in those builds/classes/sets, needs to be consolidated into fewer types of conditions to give cleanses more usability while not affecting much of the outgoing potential damage.

well I agree that there is a need to do something about condis, but it would be as I mentioned not adding new stat that basically duplicates what other one was meant to be doing by design, but by working with conditions themselves – their amounts, amounts of stacks you can apply etc.

what I think should be done would be aimed at going back to the roots of what conditions were meant for – they were supposed to be – as far as I know – sustained damage over time – not a spikey thing that kills you within seconds when setup right with you not having enought purges to deal wit heall of it – spikes should be the domain of crit-based power builds.

DeceiverX.8361:

Or, just remove Dire/TB and the problems largely vanish because people won’t be running tank builds with maximized damage per tick.

And this is totally doable, given ANet’s recent history for making major changes to gear, and how they’ve done the exact same thing when adding in Dire to begin with.

well from what I have seen I’d say problem is not of dire/trailblazer sets on their own – but the problem is that within current situation condi damage is all you need to get your damage efficiency topped on many builds – so you can pull off full condi based spike potential without sacrificing your tankiness while you cannot hope for anything like that when running PTV, be it power, toughtness, vita or precision, toughness vita [does the second one even exist atm in game? would be lovely if it did ]

so the potential “fix” in my opinion should involve bringing back the need of condi duration [expertise?] to condition based builds to top their damage efficiency, while lowering their spike.. it could also require several nerfs to availability of condi cleanses to not ruing viability of condi builds as well.

Needless to say is that I run vit because it works against both sets. Toughness only works on half. 20k hp is 20k hp and it saves me from both power warrior and condi warrior about equally.

Dire/TB is mostly the issue because these builds just don’t die. They’re effectively full-tank.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

DeceiverX.8361:

And this is totally doable, given ANet’s recent history for making major changes to gear, and how they’ve done the exact same thing when adding in Dire to begin with.

That was literally the only time, and only because they removed Magic Find from gear altogether.

Which is what I propose they do. There’s no reason for the sets to exist outside of WvW. PvE optimizes for Viper’s gear and the loadout is deemed too overpowered for sPvP and neither were thus introduced.

=) lets all go shaman apothecary and be tanky condi. hehe

thank god as a necro i have acces to a 20% Condi dmg reduction as a master trait x.x

im huging it hard

Condi really isn’t much of a problem since the patch. Just sayin.

Condition damage has dropped significantly since the patch and in particular that hit to durations and overall damage output that can be garnered via consumables.

The foods that Counter condition durations remains at 20 percent so I really do not see what the issue is here. The conitnued Rant against Dire and TB is from players who have issues entering into combat where the enemy not bursted down immediately.

IMO condi has always been a crutch for weaker players.

The answers for your class and build are out there and pretty easy to find.

Condi will always have it’s place but has to be well timed and coordinated, not just crapped out for easy wins.

If condition is a problem, then the player is the problem. This coming from a player who runs 1, yes only 1 condition cleanse and im slow as molasses to react to cleanse.

People need to keep in mind a few things:

- You attack conditions, you destroy a couple of classes completely.
- I’d say 99% of the “condition” problem threads that crop up are coming from a position of roaming, 1v1 up to small group fights. This is a WvW forum, WvW is large scale. It’s not small scale focused. If you run around in WvW and get lit up by a necro hitting you with 40 bleed stacks.. a necro that is built that way is completely useless in a large scale fight.
- Conditions aren’t the problem, toughness stacking, and resistance spamming is a problem. Under no circumstance should players be able to negate conditions 100% of a time during a fight. If that’s the case, then condition classes should have the option to negate 100% of physical damage during a fight. It’s all about balance right?

If Anet ever decides to add such a stat, then it has to be kept off any gear with toughness and vitality. If a player wants to have condition damage reduction, then it should open them right up for damage, just as a zerker class is.

Its important to separate two kinds of condi.

One is old roaming condi that is dominated by the need to actually beat certain OP power burst builds that are still OP as all kitten ( gank thieves mostly). Call that a crutch if you want, I call it a counter.

The other is ~90% of all necros using OP deathly chill. This is new and only aimed at overloading everyone with condi, not countering specific builds.

Guess where the issue lies.

Tongku.5326:

Klipso.8653:

The Condi meta is and has been overwhelming power.

While we have toughness to mitigate power, the closest thing we have to Condi mitigation is having our revs spam resistance.

I suggest a new stat that functions the same way as toughness does, but for Condi damage.
This will require players to evenly split both stats to gain survivability. Having toughness act as a catch-all for both would make it too strong, but if there’s 2 different stats players had to choose between then it would be balanced.

hello from power rev, power guard, power scrapper, power druid, power mes

also, l2p from the above, and i have the builds for the classes i didn’t mention, just not enough time to play them.

srry but power dmg you can predict cause they have animations, while most of condi skills are not visible until you get crap ton of condies on yourself. Not all classes have resistance.

But they are poushing lazy gameplay design called condition wars, wvw is a mess.
Guess why 99% necros running condition builds…

Klipso.8653:

The Condi meta is and has been overwhelming power.

While we have toughness to mitigate power, the closest thing we have to Condi mitigation is having our revs spam resistance.

I suggest a new stat that functions the same way as toughness does, but for Condi damage.
This will require players to evenly split both stats to gain survivability. Having toughness act as a catch-all for both would make it too strong, but if there’s 2 different stats players had to choose between then it would be balanced.

Resistance is what you’re looking for, then why add another defense for conditions? There’s condi clears aplenty and defensive traits against conditions already.

With the latest patch, condi duration got trimmed down, so it got weaker again. Right now there is no reason to play a condi build on most professions since it is inferior and will only work on bad players who have 0 condi clears because deeps.

The only overtuned condi build right now is viper necro because of deathly chill but they are a double edged sword since they have many glaring weaknesses that can exploited. The worst offenders since forever are Mesmers and Thieves, but either professions on power builds are equally strong to their condition counterparts if played optimally.

I take that Anet will keep toning down condition bursts in PoF until players no longer have to pack a single cleanse.

Let me explain in layman’s terms…

WvW is not designed with small scale in mind. Someone here has said this before and put it the best, “anything Anet can do to buff the little guy buffs the big guy more.”

You can’t reduce condition effectiveness anymore than it currently is because in zergs, they’re already a lot less dangerous than power.

On the smaller scale side of things, there are a couple builds that are overtuned. That doesn’t mean conditions as a whole are unbalanced and it doesn’t matter anyway because said builds are irrelevant in large scale. How many condition Mesmers or Thieves do you see in zergs? Not many. Necromancers are the only exception and most of those don’t roam because they’re too vulnerable to being overwhelmed.

Conditions are not dominating. Idiocy is.

That’s seriously doubtful. They likely nerfed conditions this patch because most of the PoF elites have huge synergy with conditions; the mesmer’s, ranger’s, necro’s, rev’s, and guard’s new specs all feature condition weapons.

Klipso.8653:

We are not debating which is stronger. Condi wins with far less effort.

I am suggesting a way to balance the field

No, actually, power builds in many cases are much easier.

Let me quote one of my posts from one of the many hundreds of threads complaining about conditions:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Conditions aren’t magically applied. They have cast times, cooldowns and counters just like power attacks do. The issue is that people want to tank all of it and faceroll their keyboards like they do with their perma-blocking free-casting massive damage Dragonhunters or stance + high Adrenal Health uptime Berserkers.

There are a lot more power builds that are far more broken than most condition builds and are a lot easier to play. Being glassy doesn’t mean “risky” when the fight doesn’t last long enough for risk to come in to effect. Gunflame Warrior is a perfect example, it’s a gimmick but it works in most circumstances because you can 1 – 2 shot people. What are you risking if people are dead before they can retaliate? Not only that, toughness is pretty much irrelevant at this point in GW2’s life with how insanely high power damage is. My Necro has 3.3k armor and I still get slugged for 7 – 8k at times, usually by Thieves.

DeadlySynz.3471:

- I’d say 99% of the “condition” problem threads that crop up are coming from a position of roaming, 1v1 up to small group fights. This is a WvW forum, WvW is large scale. It’s not small scale focused. If you run around in WvW and get lit up by a necro hitting you with 40 bleed stacks.. a necro that is built that way is completely useless in a large scale fight.

Agreed. probably roamers is the sames ones who complains against gliders.

WvW is no place for duel in disguise, sPvp is.

Condition is a good counter to “hit and stealth”.

It’s funny because “hit and stealth” builds are the ones which are the best options to counter condition builds.

I think one big problem we currently have is the high dependence on Pain Absorption, it’s literally required to compete with an organized group and most frontline groups depend on this skill to survive a push.

DeceiverX.8361:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

DeceiverX.8361:

Except for the fact vitality also helps negate the efficacy of power damage based on the same argument about relative health.

you should really try once facing power warrior in all vita, no toughtness build
[point in case – increment on health points means nothing against power builds if there is not enougth toughness to back it up, due to how power-armor ineraction goes]

DeceiverX.8361:

That said, I don’t think the answer is in new stats or build-based counters. Condition damage application, just like boons bust needs to drop down on a number of builds, and in those builds/classes/sets, needs to be consolidated into fewer types of conditions to give cleanses more usability while not affecting much of the outgoing potential damage.

well I agree that there is a need to do something about condis, but it would be as I mentioned not adding new stat that basically duplicates what other one was meant to be doing by design, but by working with conditions themselves – their amounts, amounts of stacks you can apply etc.

what I think should be done would be aimed at going back to the roots of what conditions were meant for – they were supposed to be – as far as I know – sustained damage over time – not a spikey thing that kills you within seconds when setup right with you not having enought purges to deal wit heall of it – spikes should be the domain of crit-based power builds.

DeceiverX.8361:

Or, just remove Dire/TB and the problems largely vanish because people won’t be running tank builds with maximized damage per tick.

And this is totally doable, given ANet’s recent history for making major changes to gear, and how they’ve done the exact same thing when adding in Dire to begin with.

well from what I have seen I’d say problem is not of dire/trailblazer sets on their own – but the problem is that within current situation condi damage is all you need to get your damage efficiency topped on many builds – so you can pull off full condi based spike potential without sacrificing your tankiness while you cannot hope for anything like that when running PTV, be it power, toughtness, vita or precision, toughness vita [does the second one even exist atm in game? would be lovely if it did ]

so the potential “fix” in my opinion should involve bringing back the need of condi duration [expertise?] to condition based builds to top their damage efficiency, while lowering their spike.. it could also require several nerfs to availability of condi cleanses to not ruing viability of condi builds as well.

Needless to say is that I run vit because it works against both sets. Toughness only works on half. 20k hp is 20k hp and it saves me from both power warrior and condi warrior about equally.

20k hp melts like there was no tomorrow to power warriors without considerable amounts of toughtness ontop of it. I know it from very own experience

DeceiverX.8361:

Dire/TB is mostly the issue because these builds just don’t die. They’re effectively full-tank.

issue with them is that unlike PTV they do not sacrifice damage efficiency in stats for that tankiness – condi damage is the only thing you currently need to get desired efficiency….

DeceiverX.8361:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

DeceiverX.8361:

And this is totally doable, given ANet’s recent history for making major changes to gear, and how they’ve done the exact same thing when adding in Dire to begin with.

That was literally the only time, and only because they removed Magic Find from gear altogether.

Which is what I propose they do. There’s no reason for the sets to exist outside of WvW. PvE optimizes for Viper’s gear and the loadout is deemed too overpowered for sPvP and neither were thus introduced.

well, personally I’d leave that as a last resort – only if it proves imposible for AN to balance out conditions with power to be more in line with how much tankiness you need sacrifice for dps

we can all agree Thiefs needs a nerf am i right ?

Zoltreez.6435:

we can all agree Thiefs needs a nerf am i right ?

AND DEM FILTHY MESMURS!!! :P

jokes aside I’m not sure if it’s the issue with just these two or if it’s broader issue…

[and for how much I hate to fight against enemy mesmers or thieves I’m afraid I cannot speak objectively on their specific class balancing ]

Trej, I should clarify I run 20k hp on a thief.

Equivalent build is nearly 30k on a warrior.

Both classes are OP on their condi builds because they can run very durable in terms of stats and have a lotbof defense in their kits, from mobility to stealth to immunities and dodges. The associated risks of the professions are negated by dire/tb. The damage is also high, but comes down to them having a lot of cover condition options or diverse condition damage unlike say burn guard which is easily-cleansed.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Zoltreez.6435:

we can all agree Thiefs needs a nerf am i right ?

AND DEM FILTHY MESMURS!!! :P

jokes aside I’m not sure if it’s the issue with just these two or if it’s broader issue…

[and for how much I hate to fight against enemy mesmers or thieves I’m afraid I cannot speak objectively on their specific class balancing ]

Mesmers and Thiefs are Bloated with utilities and needs a toning down seriously…

Klipso.8653:

Condi wins with far less effort.

This hasn’t been true for about 2 years now.

grifflyman.8102:

I think one big problem we currently have is the high dependence on Pain Absorption, it’s literally required to compete with an organized group and most frontline groups depend on this skill to survive a push.

give more classes group resistance and stab and we could see some new possibilities.

Stand The Wall.6987:

grifflyman.8102:

I think one big problem we currently have is the high dependence on Pain Absorption, it’s literally required to compete with an organized group and most frontline groups depend on this skill to survive a push.

give more classes group resistance and stab and we could see some new possibilities.

It’s a pretty easy fix and I really don’t understand why they haven’t added more abilities.

They should also revert the changes to warhorn on warriors, it used to convert conditions to boons and effect 10 targets.

Klipso.8653:

We are not debating which is stronger.

Because your side loses that argument every single time, and has lost that argument every single time since you lot started crying about Conditions basicly since day 1.

This has been an ongoing propaganda campaign for years despite that Power has dominated the game in every single aspect, and still does. The difference however isn’t as large anymore as it once used to be.

These threads that are complete kitten are easy to spot, because they always have the same goal. Nerf all Conditions, across the board and across all classes and builds. Even those builds that are perfectly balanced, even those builds that are underpowered, ALL Condition must be nerfed. None of this has anything to do with game balance and everything to do to completely nullify an entire form of damage.

Because these anti-condition acolytes dont account for Conditions and don’t want to and never wanted to. So if Conditions could just completely cease to exist that would be just spectacular. Then they can go back to instagibbing people with Power builds and telling them that 14k crits are entirely reasonable and anyone that disagrees needs to just “learn to play” and gear against Power.

Terrahero.9358:

Klipso.8653:

We are not debating which is stronger.

Because your side loses that argument every single time, and has lost that argument every single time since you lot started crying about Conditions basicly since day 1.

This has been an ongoing propaganda campaign for years despite that Power has dominated the game in every single aspect, and still does. The difference however isn’t as large anymore as it once used to be.

These threads that are complete kitten are easy to spot, because they always have the same goal. Nerf all Conditions, across the board and across all classes and builds. Even those builds that are perfectly balanced, even those builds that are underpowered, ALL Condition must be nerfed. None of this has anything to do with game balance and everything to do to completely nullify an entire form of damage.

Because these anti-condition acolytes dont account for Conditions and don’t want to and never wanted to. So if Conditions could just completely cease to exist that would be just spectacular. Then they can go back to instagibbing people with Power builds and telling them that 14k crits are entirely reasonable and anyone that disagrees needs to just “learn to play” and gear against Power.

well to be fair on most of my toons I do not have much issues when dueling against power builds – and I am not all that much stacked against them on most of them

condi theves/mesmers though are problematic even on characters where I have put all condi removals I could – in many cases they are quite able to out-apply my removals so to speak and get it their way anyway :/

and then again I believe that within perfect balancing scenario we should strive for a condi build running Dire/Trailblazer should have same damage efficiency as power build running soldiers stat – with glassier and more dpsier counterparts being, well – more efficient in damage department while easier to kill. so it’s always a choice between survi and damage

Toughness should decrease the damage dealt to the player.
That includes both power- and condi-caused damage.

Arzurag.7506:

Toughness should decrease the damage dealt to the player.
That includes both power- and condi-caused damage.

Then the number of cleanses should be reduced.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

No, actually, power builds in many cases are much easier.

Let me quote one of my posts from one of the many hundreds of threads complaining about conditions:

(snip)

With all due respect, I think you’re dead wrong about this.

While a gunflame warrior (for example) used to be capable of a stupidly low risk amount of cheese in some cases (and still can be, to a lesser extent), its big damage delivery is loaded into a skill that has channel time, shoots a fireball, and isn’t even accessible until the warrior looks like he’s been covered in radioactive hour sauce.

I don’t think you’d see nearly as much hate fir the broken condi builds (and I agree that not all condi is broken) if big damage was channeled into such highly telegraphed skills.

That aside, I’ve been finding condi on the small scale much more manageable since patch and don’t personally see a need to reign it in further.

Choppy.4183:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

No, actually, power builds in many cases are much easier.

Let me quote one of my posts from one of the many hundreds of threads complaining about conditions:

(snip)

With all due respect, I think you’re dead wrong about this.

While a gunflame warrior (for example) used to be capable of a stupidly low risk amount of cheese in some cases (and still can be, to a lesser extent), its big damage delivery is loaded into a skill that has channel time, shoots a fireball, and isn’t even accessible until the warrior looks like he’s been covered in radioactive hour sauce.

I don’t think you’d see nearly as much hate fir the broken condi builds (and I agree that not all condi is broken) if big damage was channeled into such highly telegraphed skills.

That aside, I’ve been finding condi on the small scale much more manageable since patch and don’t personally see a need to reign it in further.

The same could be said of the giant purple beam coming from Mesmer scepter or the scepter block. Both of which are major sources of their damage but people seem to constantly fail to avoid.

I agree on Warrior/Gunflame however, that’s why I said gimmick.

Perhaps I didn’t choose the best example, but what I was trying to illustrate, is that there are a number of power builds that require far less skill management, or even brain power, to be highly rewarded. I’m a terrible Warrior and I murder people all the time with Gunflame because if I catch them with their pants down it’s a 1 shot deal. Count those dodges and bait their defences (cancelling the burst helps) and RIP them. Also works in zergs where as condition Mesmer/Thief, not so much.

At the end of the day it all comes down to the fact that WvW isn’t/isn’t going to be balanced around small scale. Everyone has the power of choice and if they choose to sentence themselves to death by fighting what they’re not prepared to, that’s on them. If they get caught off guard, so be it, it happens to all of us and it shouldn’t be the fault of the skill(s) that caused the fatality. Roaming is about the experience, not about who’s better than who in a game where your opponent can draw scissors when all you have is paper.

I promise I’m not trying to avoid the topic, I just want to clarify how I view this.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

The same could be said of the giant purple beam coming from Mesmer scepter or the scepter block. Both of which are major sources of their damage but people seem to constantly fail to avoid.

I agree on Warrior/Gunflame however, that’s why I said gimmick.

Perhaps I didn’t choose the best example, but what I was trying to illustrate, is that there are a number of power builds that require far less skill management, or even brain power, to be highly rewarded. I’m a terrible Warrior and I murder people all the time with Gunflame because if I catch them with their pants down it’s a 1 shot deal. Count those dodges and bait their defences (cancelling the burst helps) and RIP them. Also works in zergs where as condition Mesmer/Thief, not so much.

At the end of the day it all comes down to the fact that WvW isn’t/isn’t going to be balanced around small scale. Everyone has the power of choice and if they choose to sentence themselves to death by fighting what they’re not prepared to, that’s on them. If they get caught off guard, so be it, it happens to all of us and it shouldn’t be the fault of the skill(s) that caused the fatality. Roaming is about the experience, not about who’s better than who in a game where your opponent can draw scissors when all you have is paper.

I promise I’m not trying to avoid the topic, I just want to clarify how I view this.

You’re not going to get any argument from me on gunflame, at least in group fights where it absolutely allows for a low risk:high reward style of play that I detest. As a warrior main, I often seek out anyone using that build in large fights to punish them for that reason.

Gunflame while roaming or in small scale (or dueling) is fair game though, imo.

As for the mesmer beam of confusion, I’ve never heard anyone complain about it and it’s obviously well telegraphed. But what people typically complain about with condi mesmer is the iterative applications from a seemingly endless supply of clones and phantasms that has, at least in the past, completely overwhelmed clears and dodges, for which power really has no equivalent.

Like I said before though, I’ve not come across particularly overpowered condi mesmers in a while, so maybe that’s not an issue anymore. I find power mesmers way more dangerous now, but still balanced, imo. Coordinating those bursts requires skill, and, conversely, skilled use of defenses can mitigate them. The condi builds most people complain about, not so much.

I would say condi has issues but the damage type it’s self is not the sole problem.

One of the problems is the shift in kits that came with hot. There are so many panic/reset options. Many of them on auto proc traits. This makes battles go on longer. Which is advantageous to condition damage because as the fight goes on; opponents will eventually run out of tools to deal with them.

Which leads to application, there are a number of skills that have very high applications of stacks on short cooldowns that are often also aoe. This is where condi removal and resistance plays a part. I think its intended that you won’t be able to dodge every key condi applicator skill, which is why there is good access to condi clear on many classes. However there are some very problematic condi skills.

(an example of the above is rev’s echoing interruption. A skill thats on an 8 sec cd, but has the aoe application up to 9 targets [3 targets per blast] which on just a dire build works out to be about 6k-11k of pressure per target if not cleansed and even if it is, in 8 more seconds you have to dodge or cleanse again)

The other thing that came with HoT is more stats. And no I don’t just mean types, I mean physically more stats. Sets like maruader and crusader allow a decent mix for power builds but not optimal. They are always missing something or have unwanted stats. Unlike trailblazers. Which truly gives you the ideal stat spread, and that super effective expertise stat.

On expertise, I still don’t understand why this stat is not patched. It’s twice as effective compared to the power relationship. A power build must invest in enough precision for ferocity to be worth while; to then get the damage increase from ferocity. Contrastingly expertise is just a solid gain with a cap that isn’t easy to reach. Expertise allows you to not only lets you not worry about having to split stat points, but does not rely on chance to apply the bonus either. It’s a free damage modifier.

When players abuse all of the above together, thats when condi becomes a problem. It’s happening often currently both in solo and large scale. Honestly it makes the game feel slow paced, unintuitive and not rewarding.

Light aura currently provides -10% incoming condi damage. Why not increase that to 33% so that it’s the same as prot?

Choppy.4183:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

The same could be said of the giant purple beam coming from Mesmer scepter or the scepter block. Both of which are major sources of their damage but people seem to constantly fail to avoid.

I agree on Warrior/Gunflame however, that’s why I said gimmick.

Perhaps I didn’t choose the best example, but what I was trying to illustrate, is that there are a number of power builds that require far less skill management, or even brain power, to be highly rewarded. I’m a terrible Warrior and I murder people all the time with Gunflame because if I catch them with their pants down it’s a 1 shot deal. Count those dodges and bait their defences (cancelling the burst helps) and RIP them. Also works in zergs where as condition Mesmer/Thief, not so much.

At the end of the day it all comes down to the fact that WvW isn’t/isn’t going to be balanced around small scale. Everyone has the power of choice and if they choose to sentence themselves to death by fighting what they’re not prepared to, that’s on them. If they get caught off guard, so be it, it happens to all of us and it shouldn’t be the fault of the skill(s) that caused the fatality. Roaming is about the experience, not about who’s better than who in a game where your opponent can draw scissors when all you have is paper.

I promise I’m not trying to avoid the topic, I just want to clarify how I view this.

You’re not going to get any argument from me on gunflame, at least in group fights where it absolutely allows for a low risk:high reward style of play that I detest. As a warrior main, I often seek out anyone using that build in large fights to punish them for that reason.

Gunflame while roaming or in small scale (or dueling) is fair game though, imo.

As for the mesmer beam of confusion, I’ve never heard anyone complain about it and it’s obviously well telegraphed. But what people typically complain about with condi mesmer is the iterative applications from a seemingly endless supply of clones and phantasms that has, at least in the past, completely overwhelmed clears and dodges, for which power really has no equivalent.

Like I said before though, I’ve not come across particularly overpowered condi mesmers in a while, so maybe that’s not an issue anymore. I find power mesmers way more dangerous now, but still balanced, imo. Coordinating those bursts requires skill, and, conversely, skilled use of defenses can mitigate them. The condi builds most people complain about, not so much.

This is really the big issue with the most problematic of condition builds; not only are they extremely durable in dire/tb, but their sources of damage are seemingly endless. I can play one cleanse per second and still melt in seconds from things like condi thief/mes/reaper just from the sheer volume of different/cover conditions applied. Unlike power shatter mesmer, for example, the condi one just keeps its clones AA’ing for damage, versus the needed timing on the shatter burst during frames of weakness to really seal the deal.

You look at the biggest perpetrators and quickly realize most of the complaints just stem from being unable to beat them out at what should be their counter – ending fights quickly. The condi bomb from a few builds is insane in terms of damage, and given dire/tb they cant be out-paced when weapons, traits and utils are chosen for sustain. Most of these builds come from really squishy base classes – mesmer, thief, necro – which have a solid number of active defenses to keep them alive when being fragile. The dire/tb afterthought sets make them hard to take down from both the stats perspective and skills perspective (invulns, stealth, mobility, shroud).

In power play, skill should be derived from knowing when to apply a lot of very intense pressure and when to alleviate it. In condi play, pressure should be constant and lesser but build over time, and skill should come from knowing when to negate incoming damage and when not to while maintaining that pressure. At the moment, a number of condition builds can constantly apply pressure (and a lot of it) while needing to not pay much attention to their defensive resources nearly as much as they should.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

Every successful guild on BG that we (JQ) face is using a power meta.

They use a coordinated Revenant CoR / Phase Smash bomb.

We should be discussing how 5+ people being instantly downed by CoR from 1200 range is bad for the game.

In addition to the fact the meta is no longer condi I will add the condi builds were damaged quite badly by the food nerf.

No. Just no. There hasn’t been a power meta since the SoI nerf. Every credible guild is running condition spike. Condi revs are overall phasing out pure power revs.

yeah lol. earlier bg and my server were fighting, both tagless, and I saw for myself how many condi necros there were.

condi is not as bad it was. honestly seeing a bit of a Glass resurgence since patch.

If it’s true that Reaper Chillbleed trait will get gutted in PoF, that’s a large potion of the condi backbone. Solo roaming there will be dumb cancer condi kitten, but the game has NEVER been balanced 1v1 at all. If we are talking solo roaming balance there’s far more egregious kitten than conditions.

Pinko.2076:

condi is not as bad it was. honestly seeing a bit of a Glass resurgence since patch.

Thats all due to shroud changes. When you cant tank as good, just deal more condi damage instead. Somewhat better smallscale (easier to counter with power burst damage), worse large scale unless the necros are idiots.

i am from crystal desert and this is my experience. SO small scale fights are not that bad. Roaming and zergs that are 20 or less don’t put much condi pressure.

Yea i take condi damage from a 20 man zerg but it’s tankable and fine.

However when you face 40 or 50 man zergs that spam condi on you, you take a TON of damage, like 8 condis with 10-15 stacks each.

Even with condition cleanses and resistance, they can spam it on you. ON our server they use elementals and necros to create bombs. I don’t know the details on how they do it, but it hurts.

Also power is not very good. Power is decent on guard and warrior only because you have stances aegis and stab. So you can build glass cannon and survive for a bit.

But you need power precision and ferocity.,

On my engineer i get dire and trailblazer and i can roam and do pretty good.

Power is weak condi is stronger.

and necros even with nerfed shroud are still tanky because trailblazer gives toughness vitality and condi damage and expertise.

My opinion of nerfing condi is to reduce it’s damage by 60% and let condi be cable of critting with precision and do more damage with ferocity.

Would make balancing damage much simpler and you can create more hybrid stat builds like – condi precision toughness vitality or condi ferocity toughness vitality – or condi power precision ferocity or condi power toughness vitality.

This would be a pretty useful change i think and would open more builds for all classes.

I play power rifle engi with only HT for cleanse and I haven’t even noticed. I tend to avoid damage rather than deal with it after it has landed.

I’ve still yet to see a pro-condi argument that makes sense as to why Dire gear should continue to surpass Soldier’s gear in effectiveness tenfold – when they have the exact same amount of added defensive stats.

Or is it denial? So, anyone here who thinks everything is hunky dory and condi is fine, please answer this extremely simple question:

“Can someone in Soldier’s gear be as effective in dps as someone in Dire gear in small scale combat? (small scale being under 10 players)”

—The reason I didn’t include zerg v zerg is to deter answers from focusing only on that subject, which has never failed to skirt the initial question and never give a straight answer.

grifflyman.8102:

Stand The Wall.6987:

grifflyman.8102:

I think one big problem we currently have is the high dependence on Pain Absorption, it’s literally required to compete with an organized group and most frontline groups depend on this skill to survive a push.

give more classes group resistance and stab and we could see some new possibilities.

It’s a pretty easy fix and I really don’t understand why they haven’t added more abilities.

They should also revert the changes to warhorn on warriors, it used to convert conditions to boons and effect 10 targets.

Shhhhhh my sweet summer child. Frontline warrior is a meme since HOT and will stay a meme.