Guild Wars 2

They could at least start with fixing wvw daily since two of them are not even possible to make since there is no such things anymore -.-

cillard.3986:

Notsoperky.2348:

At least they admitted they released the new maps without really testing them or finishing them Maybe next time they will ask real wvw players to test from an early stage and then listen and act in the feedback.

My worry is that it may be too late.

The absolutely DID invite entire WvW guilds into the beta testing. My guild is one of those that was invited and we perhaps one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent, WvW guilds in NA.

We took our time to test their game, because we care about it that much, and spent our time writing up feedback about the glaring issues we found with the new maps. For the most part, they were completely ignored. Whether it was due to lack of resources or lack of importance, who can say….. but those people still defending ANET at this point need to get a grip. These forums are getting spammed with complaints about the very issues we raised to ANET literally months and months ago. They chose to ignore them and implement the maps as is.

(read this before it automagically disappears, as criticism usually does)

I’d like to read that thread also.

Yes they have if they gave a lic about WVW they would stop trying to turn it into PVE…the old maps were fine heck they could have simply tweaked them a little and actually started to take care of the known exploits and cheats. I think its fairly universal that the new maps suck..yet I bet we are stuck with them well the ones who stay I find my time in gw2 has dwindled these days as I pretty much only played wvw. We were waiting for HOT to launch to buy it but even my partner says hes not getting it until they start listening to the players and stop screwing everyone over. If they dont we just will stop playing all together this great expansion was nothing more then a money grab. I mean really hiding stuff that was perviousely available to every one behind HOT so we have to buy it just to have that stuff back just isent cewl Anet or maybe I should say blizzard..Worst thing is they know they screwed as all for greed question is will they fix it before or after everyone leaves..

keadlaw.6350:

I really feel that their design philosophy of not sharing anything with us until its so far along in the development doesn’t work for wvw. Those of you that think you were actually beta testing on those beta weekends are delusional. They were promotional weekends to build hype. Sure maybe some minor things were able to be tweaked from feedback, but it was way too late in the development process to make any meaningful changes for HoT.

^ This guy gets it.

Simple fix…give us back the old maps…end of story.

Vintage.3850:

Simple fix…give us back the old maps…end of story.

As a number of people pointed out elsewhere old maps with HoT mechanics won’t fix (much of) anything.

Also, to think getting the Alpine BL back and scrapping the Desert BL is even an option is pretty delusional.

Cogbyrn.7283:

cillard.3986:

Notsoperky.2348:

At least they admitted they released the new maps without really testing them or finishing them Maybe next time they will ask real wvw players to test from an early stage and then listen and act in the feedback.

My worry is that it may be too late.

The absolutely DID invite entire WvW guilds into the beta testing. My guild is one of those that was invited and we perhaps one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent, WvW guilds in NA.

We took our time to test their game, because we care about it that much, and spent our time writing up feedback about the glaring issues we found with the new maps. For the most part, they were completely ignored. Whether it was due to lack of resources or lack of importance, who can say….. but those people still defending ANET at this point need to get a grip. These forums are getting spammed with complaints about the very issues we raised to ANET literally months and months ago. They chose to ignore them and implement the maps as is.

(read this before it automagically disappears, as criticism usually does)

Good lord, you have the privilege to help mold a game mode by providing feedback, for a game you supposedly love, and you act like it’s this huge chore that ANet should grovel at your feet for you even thinking about doing. You must have expected that every piece of anything you submitted would be immediately changed, but that isn’t how feedback works.

What was your feedback? You spent your time writing it up, what sorts of things did it involve? What do you feel is a reasonable timeframe for those issues to be resolved? What feedback did ANet receive from other guilds? What feedback resulted in changes (since you said “mostly”)?

I think ANet made a mistake with the Desert BL design, but I’m still giving it a shot. Regardless, this spoiled child attitude is something I’ll never agree with.

I would have loved to have been part of the feedback process, regardless of what they did with said feedback. It’s an honor to be brought in to be a part of any sort of feedback process for any product you love/enjoy.

I think your reading comprehension is poor. Your response smacks of cronyism towards Anet. He not once said that he felt ANet should, “grovel” at his feet. What he said was that ANet invited WvW players to get their feedback, and that very little of the feedback was taken to heart. That smacks of ANet being disingenuous with their testers. It’s not an honor to be part of feedback groups. It’s often a chore to work on/play on unfinished projects, and when you give credible feedback you expect some kind of response to it.

They were getting negative feedback on the desert BLs as soon as they started testing them, and most of what was said then made it to live launch. That tells you how much credibility they gave their testers.

The desert map is a great map, it’s just not a very good WvW map. There are great facets to it, and really with very little tweaking it could be a very good WvW map, but it isn’t there yet.

keadlaw.6350:

I really feel that their design philosophy of not sharing anything with us until its so far along in the development doesn’t work for wvw. Those of you that think you were actually beta testing on those beta weekends are delusional. They were promotional weekends to build hype. Sure maybe some minor things were able to be tweaked from feedback, but it was way too late in the development process to make any meaningful changes for HoT.

Sure as a beta tester I agree it was only for bug testing and hype building. However they did ask for feedback and feedback was given similar to many of the criticisms detailed since it went live.

Colin

Our goal was to ensure we didn’t really need to tweak any major game system again after this expansion and our focus could be entirely on adding new content, and building on top of – rather than expanding outward systemically. WvW is the one major feature I’d say we didn’t end up accomplishing this goal, the project is so large it didn’t end up fitting into the scope of the expansion and we still have work to do to address core fundamental issues like population balance, rewards, scoring, night capping, etc. As always we don’t discuss features in development until they are far enough along to share meaningful details, so for now we’ll just say WvW is the final big game system on our radar – and we’ve had a lot of great conversations with our players about what they’d love to see from epic large scale PvP combat.

As a game with global market, I am DISGUSTED by the fact that this came from an ANet guy. News Flash, USA is not the only country in the world.
It may be capping things at night for you, but for us in SEA/OCX we are doing things on our day/prime time.

I cannot express how outraged i am by this statement without getting the forum moderator whammy, but just to put it out there, think of the most horrible, atrocious and abhorrent insult you can think of, and that is pretty much how i feel..

Seriously.

Chiccotot.7296:

Colin

Our goal was to ensure we didn’t really need to tweak any major game system again after this expansion and our focus could be entirely on adding new content, and building on top of – rather than expanding outward systemically. WvW is the one major feature I’d say we didn’t end up accomplishing this goal, the project is so large it didn’t end up fitting into the scope of the expansion and we still have work to do to address core fundamental issues like population balance, rewards, scoring, night capping, etc. As always we don’t discuss features in development until they are far enough along to share meaningful details, so for now we’ll just say WvW is the final big game system on our radar – and we’ve had a lot of great conversations with our players about what they’d love to see from epic large scale PvP combat.

As a game with global market, I am DISGUSTED by the fact that this came from an ANet guy. News Flash, USA is not the only country in the world.
It may be capping things at night for you, but for us in SEA/OCX we are doing things on our day/prime time.

I cannot express how outraged i am by this statement without getting the forum moderator whammy, but just to put it out there, think of the most horrible, atrocious and abhorrent insult you can think of, and that is pretty much how i feel..

Seriously.

Yes the fact that Anet chose this of all all possible topics to highlight in the “Sorry you’re playing a game (mode) that’s half finished because instead of waiting until it’s complete we decided to push it out while everyone’s PvEing to grind out Elites and Guild Halls/Upgrades because no one would notice anyway since we’re all ‘Really into PvE’.” statement is pretty unfortunate.

I keep telling people to wait and see. I know we’ve been waiting for over two years but just have a little bit of faith.

WvW is one of the three major modes in the game, when the head developer says this stuff he means it.

Mark my words.

I mean, I wouldn’t mind changes and things taking a long time if only there was someone responding to queries occasionally. They wouldn’t even have to say a lot, just so long as we can see that Anet is actually watching and interested in legitimate feedback. Prolonged silence followed by comments on Reddit or the occasional vague mention in a Guild Wars news post doesn’t taste so great – this is neither a fan-made nor fan-moderated forum. Some minor sense of conversation would be encouraging. Haters/flamers? They’re always going to flame/hate. I’d like a space for people who want legitimate, thoughtful to-and-fro conversation with other players and devs.

^on the other hand, your signature initials spell EBG…
Providence? …perhaps.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we see an entire overall of the system.

Any time anyone mentions “night capping” in a negative way, it makes me cringe! People from around the world play this game 24/7; day for one group of people is night for another, and not everyone who lives in the EU plays on an EU server, and not everyone that lives in NA plays on an NA server. Some people work days and play GW2 at night, some work nights and play GW2 during the day. In short:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NIGHT CAPPING.

So please, for the love of all things pixelated, stop using that term.

Sinbold.8723:

Any time anyone mentions “night capping” in a negative way, it makes me cringe! People from around the world play this game 24/7; day for one group of people is night for another, and not everyone who lives in the EU plays on an EU server, and not everyone that lives in NA plays on an NA server. Some people work days and play GW2 at night, some work nights and play GW2 during the day. In short:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NIGHT CAPPING.

So please, for the love of all things pixelated, stop using that term.

Then what exactly do you call small groups intentionally playing far outside primetime with the express purpose of capping undefended things in order to boost PPT and give the server an advantage that servers without such a crew cant counter? Strategical PPT warriors?

Nightcapping is a thing. Its not necessarily a bad thing nor does it require nighttime. Its just another word for low population PPT imbalance and it need to be adressed globally in WvW. No stupid timezone rules, just low population rules that reduce the impact of the extreme PPT generation curves during off hours, any time of the day/night.

What do I call it? I call it, “People Playing GW2 WvW When They Want”.

YOUR prime time may not be THEIR prime time. That was my point.

“Low population rules” would pander to…. just who exactly? So points they score aren’t equal in value to points you score? Please explain how that levels the playing field and adds incentive for people to play in the hours deemed unfit for equal points?

Dawdler.8521:

far outside primetime

Again, as it’s been pointed out, the game mode is global and open 24 hours a day. Just as there is no night, there also is no day, nor is there a prime time.

Sinbold.8723:

So points they score aren’t equal in value to points you score?

I always find that argument hilarious. Because in reality, its the complete opposite.

That’s why we see lots of T3 stuff when waking up. If I capture a camp during primetime my server get maybe a boost of 5 ppt. 10ppt if we’re lucky. Someone will more than likely come and recap it soon because during prime there’s always some enemies around. Hell sometimes it made no difference, because its recapped within the 5 minute timer and I was silly enough not to take it too soon for tick. If I capture something in the middle of the night while the servers are sleeping… Chances are I get a major boost in PPT during the 5+ hours it will probably be held.

So no, the score of primetime cappers like me is not equal that of the score of nighttime cappers. My score is worth far less.

If WvW score was only based on kills, I’d agree with you. Primetime would see much more action, much more death and thus be worth alot more. But its not. Its the complete opposite. WvW score is based on PPT, where low population periods, or “nighttime” if you will, is potentially worth so much more than primetime. Score will always snowball when servers are are sleeping. One point gained for one server is a point lost for another, giving a double whammy. WvW score is pretty much a sinuscurve. A sinuscurve that need to be more flat in order for things to be more balanced.

Chiccotot.7296:

As a game with global market, I am DISGUSTED by the fact that this came from an ANet guy. News Flash, USA is not the only country in the world.
It may be capping things at night for you, but for us in SEA/OCX we are doing things on our day/prime time.

I cannot express how outraged i am by this statement without getting the forum moderator whammy, but just to put it out there, think of the most horrible, atrocious and abhorrent insult you can think of, and that is pretty much how i feel..

Seriously.

Spare me the theatrics and feigned outrage.

Nightcapping is an issue and has been since before the game even came out. The problem is that few people during off-hours impact the outcome of a week far more than 3 borderlands with a queue could during prime time. That is something that should’ve been looked into asap, but wasn’t.

Your time is not anymore valueable than other people playing, but in scoring it most certainly is and that’s bad design. There are perfectly legitimate solutions that would ensure that capping undefended structures during off-hours, with zero opposition does not contribute as much as it currently does, where it descides matches. While also making sure that time spend by people during these hours isn’t worthless either. There are middle grounds here.

But i’ve seen this song and dance from anet about wvw far to many times. “We’ll talk about it later” “Big things comming” “Ow we just didnt have the time to do everything we wanted”, i’ve really heard it all before.
The “big” WvW patch we had gave us grindy wvw masteries that completely unbalanced siege, traps hardly anyone use, and feature even more pve stuff than wvw despite being the “big, long awaited, wvw patch”. It was disapointing then, and it will be disapointing in the future.

The aim is clear, WvW is part of PvE. You arent suppose to play just wvw because you are strongly disadvantaged as your gear will be worst, and you get less loot, and less gold, and completely miss out on all kinds of pve specific loot i.e. certain runes, sigils and stat-combinations.
It was more then clear with this pve centric wvw map, and the steps made to ensure you cannot get a stat advantage over other players by playing wvw (bye bye Applied F/S), but it was A-OK to get a stat advantage over other players by playing pve (hai there ascended everything).

From the complete desolate state that borderlands are in, even on a server that is touted as “Full”, i think we can safely assume that the descisions that let upto this point have been poor.

OMG People… im not sure if you are sarcastic, trolling or just plain stupid.

There is no NIGHT CAPPING cause the world is round, and its day time elsewhere.

Until ANet releases a server saying “EST” or “PST” or “Central” timezone, you better stop crying about this so called “night capping” cause this game is global, and everyone can play whatever time they want.

//end of rant

Colin

…the project (WvW) is so large it didn’t end up fitting into the scope of the expansion and we still have work to do to address core fundamental issues like population balance, rewards, scoring, night capping, etc. As always we don’t discuss features in development until they are far enough along to share meaningful details, so for now we’ll just say WvW is the final big game system on our radar – and we’ve had a lot of great conversations with our players about what they’d love to see from epic large scale PvP combat.

By the time WvW becomes the “final big game system” there will be no world vs. world players left in the system. Maybe there’s big changes that will come down the pipe… eventually. In the meantime, its time for some quality of life fixes to at least keep some of the actual wvw player base interested in playing this game rather than migrating to other options. I agree that the old version of WvW had some problems, but this new one has many more problems. I’d like to see this version of wvw become something I can enjoy playing again rather than game hunting for another similar experience. Even just basic things like upgrade changes, gliding, and roaming viability would allow the average wvw player to have some interest.

Chiccotot.7296:

OMG People… im not sure if you are sarcastic, trolling or just plain stupid.

There is no NIGHT CAPPING cause the world is round, and its day time elsewhere.

Until ANet releases a server saying “EST” or “PST” or “Central” timezone, you better stop crying about this so called “night capping” cause this game is global, and everyone can play whatever time they want.

//end of rant

Yes well unfortunetly for us they did release 27 servers within the UTC/GMT timezone over 3 years ago. You must have missed that.

morrolan.9608:

keadlaw.6350:

I really feel that their design philosophy of not sharing anything with us until its so far along in the development doesn’t work for wvw. Those of you that think you were actually beta testing on those beta weekends are delusional. They were promotional weekends to build hype. Sure maybe some minor things were able to be tweaked from feedback, but it was way too late in the development process to make any meaningful changes for HoT.

Sure as a beta tester I agree it was only for bug testing and hype building. However they did ask for feedback and feedback was given similar to many of the criticisms detailed since it went live.

A lot of it the same feedback given by eotm beta testers… With the same level of response to concerns. I heard Colin mention “real beta testing” once on a livestream. After seeing two finished maps now for post-development testing I’m not sure what’s going on, but I’m half convinced buzz words are being thrown about and nothing more.

Nightcapping is NOT a thing… Call it for what it is people AND ANET…. A limitation on the PPT scoring system! It has nothing to do with the time of day.

For example-
Prime Time – God forbid, the server with the most players gets the Higher PPT in WvW

In your off time- (how dare someone play and get points, when you’re not playing be it Night time or whenever!) – God forbid, the server with the most players get the higher PPT in WvW…
……………
I believe that’s called WvW PPT people. That’s how the game is scored.
Stop being ignorant and insensitive by blaming it on people outside of your time zone, by saying it’s “night capping”. It is not our night.

Anet please stop offending your global players, otherwise on behalf of your global players, turn your servers off at ‘night’ and provide us all with refunds.

Nightcapping is a thing. It is where a small group of players takes points uncontested. You see, when a server wins against an equal opposition you can be fighting all day and etch out a 2k lead.
You wake up the following morning after a good night’s rest, and notice you are now 15k behind, and one server is ticking for 600+ with all t3 keeps. They did all that with no opposition.

We can bring down the stupid amount of points servers can gain unopposed during off-hours without turning off the servers, as if that is clearly a reasonable response, and have people who play at night still benefit their server. Just, not in such an extreme way anymore.

Which im sure will make all the people who play during these off-hours very sad that they cannot single-handedly (almost literally single-handedly) win their match-up anymore.

Chiccotot.7296:

OMG People… im not sure if you are sarcastic, trolling or just plain stupid.

Well i am sure which one you are.

cillard.3986:

Notsoperky.2348:

At least they admitted they released the new maps without really testing them or finishing them Maybe next time they will ask real wvw players to test from an early stage and then listen and act in the feedback.

My worry is that it may be too late.

The absolutely DID invite entire WvW guilds into the beta testing. My guild is one of those that was invited and we perhaps one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent, WvW guilds in NA.

We took our time to test their game, because we care about it that much, and spent our time writing up feedback about the glaring issues we found with the new maps. For the most part, they were completely ignored. Whether it was due to lack of resources or lack of importance, who can say….. but those people still defending ANET at this point need to get a grip. These forums are getting spammed with complaints about the very issues we raised to ANET literally months and months ago. They chose to ignore them and implement the maps as is.

(read this before it automagically disappears, as criticism usually does)

Good to know they ignored your input, and thanks for taking the time to come and post.

Those are just some carefully crafted words on a news website; to my mind, they resemble political spin at best.

If the devs were serious, they would be iterating content, the words would be in these forums, not a news website, they would be responding to WvW forum posts often, and they wouldn’t have done a lot of what they did (too much PvE in WvW).

Anyways, it doesn’t matter; what matters are WvW populations. If the populations rise, then great the Devs have time to introduce more/fix/whatever it is they want to do to achieve a long-term vision. If they shrink, they can say anything or do anything they like and it won’t matter, as people will simply move on to other games.

The funny part is you dont even have to night cap now. Playing in T3 even at NA primetime. If you took a group of 10-15 to any borderland. You could capture everything and not see a soul. So in a way they have fixxed night capping. They just made it an around the clock thing.

How hard would it be to use some kind of ppt multiplier to determine points during off hours to mitigate night-capping to some extent. For example, when total players in wvw drops below X% of average max participation, then ppt is reduced to X% of full tick. When population levels again (overnight) the ppt drops again to X-20% of full tick. I’m not saying that players that cap during the downtimes should get a lower XP or karma reward, but the ppt should drop to reflect the lower level of competition.

Osu.6307:

How hard would it be to use some kind of ppt multiplier to determine points during off hours to mitigate night-capping to some extent. For example, when total players in wvw drops below X% of average max participation, then ppt is reduced to X% of full tick. When population levels again (overnight) the ppt drops again to X-20% of full tick. I’m not saying that players that cap during the downtimes should get a lower XP or karma reward, but the ppt should drop to reflect the lower level of competition.

Apart from the usual argument that you are discounting some one’s efforts on the basis of some definition of ‘prime time’, or that maybe it should be the other way around and less players should give more ppt, night capping isn’t an issue any more- finding any players on the Deserted BL at all at any time is the issue.

Osu.6307:

How hard would it be to use some kind of ppt multiplier to determine points during off hours to mitigate night-capping to some extent. For example, when total players in wvw drops below X% of average max participation, then ppt is reduced to X% of full tick. When population levels again (overnight) the ppt drops again to X-20% of full tick. I’m not saying that players that cap during the downtimes should get a lower XP or karma reward, but the ppt should drop to reflect the lower level of competition.

If they do something like this, I hope the calculations are done per map and at all times. What i mean is even if it is NA primetime and there are 900 million people fighting in eb, if there is no one on the bl fighting over them, then they should tick for less.

I guess id like to see it affected by the others servers population as well. For example For the time i was on CD the main guilds would gvg on thursdays so as a result most maps were free of cd. So capping cds stuff should give you less ppt when there are no cd around to defend it. So CDs corner of eb and the bl would tick for less if other servers controlled them if they werent around to defend it.

I mean if you are going to try to go after capping when people arent around, it should be all the time thing and each map should be measured separately.

jazdarc.1367:

Nightcapping is NOT a thing… Call it for what it is people AND ANET…. A limitation on the PPT scoring system! It has nothing to do with the time of day.

For example-
Prime Time – God forbid, the server with the most players gets the Higher PPT in WvW

In your off time- (how dare someone play and get points, when you’re not playing be it Night time or whenever!) – God forbid, the server with the most players get the higher PPT in WvW…
……………
I believe that’s called WvW PPT people. That’s how the game is scored.
Stop being ignorant and insensitive by blaming it on people outside of your time zone, by saying it’s “night capping”. It is not our night.

Anet please stop offending your global players, otherwise on behalf of your global players, turn your servers off at ‘night’ and provide us all with refunds.

no offense but european servers (since im from EU) should have all an equal prime time why? because as far i know eu goes from +0 gmt till +2 max maybe +3 but i dont think so..

so prime time for euro’s should all be within more or less same hours correct? i dont give a rats kitten if a huge group of chinese/japanese/american want to play on EU servers but if they only play for the PPT then yes id love to see how they fail at it cus all they do is cap cap cap cap karma karma karma train aviod pvp like a plague…

WvW for some is all about capping for some its all about killing and some take the middle way i dont mind which one u choose but atleast make it a challange and reward people for doing so during the prime time based on server “flag” off prime time hours can just be lowered..

tho i didnt buy HoT i barely play nowadays whole game seems to go down hill in my opinion, obviously Anet doesnt see this drop in players since they made it f2p they prolly gain more players then veterans who have started playing alot less or completely quit.

They are saying this for years, anyone still taking it serious?

Chiccotot.7296:

^on the other hand, your signature initials spell EBG…
Providence? …perhaps.

Funny you mention that. I saw that when I changed my signature but decided to go with it anyway, hah. My first thought was that it looked like the title of a newspaper before I caught onto the EBG reference. xD

lol all these nerds that still think ppt matters. Nightcapping doesn’t exist! If your server has coverage gaps its on your community to recruit, and fill those gaps. If your server isn’t organized enough to do so, move to one that is. Tiers 1-3 are pretty much locked in place. What place you finish the week in hardly matters. There’s no rewards for wining, and who cares about bragging rights after months of the same stale match ups. This is a non issue.

The havent forgotten, but they are ignoring.

Just look at the dev trackers: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/devtracker

They are active in all other forums, yet as usual in the WvW forum they are not to be seen.

I’ll believe it when I see it. Or maybe I won’t because I hardly play wvw anymore.

I really love the description for WvW borderlands in the purchase menu for Heart of Thorns:

“Join forces with your fellow players and battle to the top of the leaderboards in our new Player vs. Player Stronghold game mode. Experience combat on an epic scale in our new World vs. World’s Borderlands map.”

Yes, I’m aware the first part is PvP. It’s the “epic scale” part that amuses me. I haven’t seen anyone on the borderlands since launch (no, not true, I saw about three enemies and four defenders once).

^epic fail scale…

Dawdler.8521:

Chiccotot.7296:

OMG People… im not sure if you are sarcastic, trolling or just plain stupid.

There is no NIGHT CAPPING cause the world is round, and its day time elsewhere.

Until ANet releases a server saying “EST” or “PST” or “Central” timezone, you better stop crying about this so called “night capping” cause this game is global, and everyone can play whatever time they want.

//end of rant

Yes well unfortunetly for us they did release 27 servers within the UTC/GMT timezone over 3 years ago. You must have missed that.

yes well, unfortunately they discovered that the earth is roughly a ball-ish shape hundreds of years ago. You must have missed that.

reddie.5861:

• snip*

You do realize that they fight against each other right? I play during late OCX and SEA. We have people on all 3 servers and we fight each other.

Servers are split into EU and NA. This results in timzone oriented population.
I would relaunche as global servers without tags for new tiers. Totaly mixed in timezones and the number of tiers adapted to the current population.

Wolfric.9380:

Servers are split into EU and NA. This results in timzone oriented population.
I would relaunche as global servers without tags for new tiers. Totaly mixed in timezones and the number of tiers adapted to the current population.

Shame about the speed of light. It’d be great to have a global server and these game types would benefit from it.
Sadly, they can’t locate servers in the core yet.

So….if you reduce the PPT at some random time when it’s night somewhere on the planet, what’s your incentive to go take that reduced point tower? I’d REALLY like to know.