Guild Wars 2

OriOri.8724:

I agree, all elite specs do need to be nerfed. Does that change the fact that being able to disengage at will and be out of reach for most classes on top of having an overly high amount of dodges and evades when you do stay for a fight is broken?

And I don’t know how you think mesmer can catch up with thief. They can triple blink once every 75 seconds as a chrono, yet a lot of mesmers are just plain bad and can’t pull that off. Aside from that its 1 blink every 30 seconds, plus about-face + phase retreat. But again a lot of mesmers are not very good and can’t figure that combination out. And even if they could its not enough to keep up with a thief that wants to get away.

Well to be fair, dependent on how bad a shape said thief is in when he flees, a pursuing mesmer can summon a clone at range which can often finish off said thief. This coupled with ranged attacks means you do not have to get toe to toe.

The fact remains however, that as far as cross map movement is concerned, the thief is faster.

Earlier today I ran into a camp a couple of ours were trying to flip only to arrive too late. I got there as they were downed by 5 enemies the camp still enemy colors. I was on my warrior and all 5 of the enemy chased me. There were at least two thieves in the group. I ran from SWC all the way back to Bay with all five chasing and attacking me and survived. That is how much sustain a warrior has. Blocks higher armor, healing signet better health pool endure pain kicking in twice.

Now given two thieves chasing me as well had I been on my thief I would likely have been dead in spite of all his dodges. 5 dodges do not last long against 5 people.

Oh and this does not mean I think Warrior OP. Had he stuck around to fight he would have died. He should be robust enough to survive a number of enemies for a period of time , something a thief must use different tactics to accomplish.

The classes all play differently.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Just because players are bad doesn’t mean Mesmers don’t have semi highmobility, that isn’t a design flaw that’s just players being bad……

Where is this “semi high mobility” you speak of? That one blink every 30seconds that is quite often used as your stun break? Disengage is != mobility, mesmers do have decent access to disengage if they load up on some stealth options or trait PU. They do not have decent mobility to chase.

For mobility you might outrun a DH or Nero but i think it would be close vs a DH. Simply by virtue of wings, JI, SoB.

All HoT classes could still use some serious nerf bat love compared to their base counterparts. Zerkers, DD’s and condi chronos probably are the stand outs to be toned down.

But it looks like Anet will just be throwing WvW in with the PvE crowd so dont hold your breath on the small scale/solo format ever being remotely balanced. You want better balanced 1v1’s go to PvP where active class balancing is a thing.

babazhook.6805:

anduriell.6280:

The problem with those two classes are not the class itself but the mechanics that can be abused in some builds:

• highest mobility in game
• Highest active defense uptime in game
• Highest damage in game.

Thieves get the same armor rating as an engineer still has a massive amount of damage plus abuse of stealth, which has no counter.

If put together with spamming dodges and evades plus a massive burst that can end most of professions in a couple of seconds you see there is something broken.

No class should be able to have so many defenses and so much damage.

Stealth has counters. You mentioned one of the classes that can counter it in your post.

I will also assure you that stealth is NOT immunity like those invulns. A Good many thieves will die while stealthed.

Only counter there is against stealth is big aoe reveal or a long lasting target reveal.

There are only 2 classes With a somehow effective means to fight stealth is DH and Scrapper. Any other class in this game does not have a real counter against it.

A short stealth from time to time is ok, being able to damage from stealth or stay hidden forever is not.

But if at least the thief should trade mobility/defenses for stealth, or damage for mobility and stealth it would seem balanced. However it is not the case and the only thing that limits the impact of the thief in wvw it is just and only that it is single target.

Exclusively because thieves have to farm bags one by one is the only thing is keeping the amount of thieves relatively low. Otherwise they would be the dominant in any competitive mode.

anduriell.6280:

babazhook.6805:

anduriell.6280:

The problem with those two classes are not the class itself but the mechanics that can be abused in some builds:

• highest mobility in game
• Highest active defense uptime in game
• Highest damage in game.

Thieves get the same armor rating as an engineer still has a massive amount of damage plus abuse of stealth, which has no counter.

If put together with spamming dodges and evades plus a massive burst that can end most of professions in a couple of seconds you see there is something broken.

No class should be able to have so many defenses and so much damage.

Stealth has counters. You mentioned one of the classes that can counter it in your post.

I will also assure you that stealth is NOT immunity like those invulns. A Good many thieves will die while stealthed.

Only counter there is against stealth is big aoe reveal or a long lasting target reveal.

There are only 2 classes With a somehow effective means to fight stealth is DH and Scrapper. Any other class in this game does not have a real counter against it.

A short stealth from time to time is ok, being able to damage from stealth or stay hidden forever is not.

But if at least the thief should trade mobility/defenses for stealth, or damage for mobility and stealth it would seem balanced. However it is not the case and the only thing that limits the impact of the thief in wvw it is just and only that it is single target.

Exclusively because thieves have to farm bags one by one is the only thing is keeping the amount of thieves relatively low. Otherwise they would be the dominant in any competitive mode.

I have never played any game where there is a stealth mechanic in any class that has been able to damage while stealthed or remain stealthed for such long periods. This game is quite a departure from balance.

My biggest complaint with the stealth class in this game is watching its HP recovering when stealthed. It’s almost as good as having full heal skill. I watch thief youtube vids seeing their stealth and have hp regen almost instant and still having a self heal skill available.

Watching thieves able to escape damage by stealth only to full heal and come back with power burst. I can survive a power burst, but don’t have the benefit of having the almost full heal regen a thief has in stealth to keep coming back and back.

The only thing that even really seems to work on thief that I have seen is condi damage. Watching them running away, even with their amazing health regen while dps is ticking away on them is only way to deal with them for me. If they can’t clear the condi, they’re always going to die.

That’s old, shadow arts thief regens in stealth, nothing else did or does. May be you should play a thief more then once a blue moon instead of watching YouTube vids where the user cherry picked the best/easy fights… they are called montage for a reason.

Chorazin.4107:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Just because players are bad doesn’t mean Mesmers don’t have semi highmobility, that isn’t a design flaw that’s just players being bad……

Where is this “semi high mobility” you speak of? That one blink every 30seconds that is quite often used as your stun break? Disengage is != mobility, mesmers do have decent access to disengage if they load up on some stealth options or trait PU. They do not have decent mobility to chase.

For mobility you might outrun a DH or Nero but i think it would be close vs a DH. Simply by virtue of wings, JI, SoB.

All HoT classes could still use some serious nerf bat love compared to their base counterparts. Zerkers, DD’s and condi chronos probably are the stand outs to be toned down.

But it looks like Anet will just be throwing WvW in with the PvE crowd so dont hold your breath on the small scale/solo format ever being remotely balanced. You want better balanced 1v1’s go to PvP where active class balancing is a thing.

It’s been explained how they have semi high mobility not doing it again, if someone hasn’t got it by this time…

And again Mesmers don’t need High mobility and Disengage to sustain/survive….between their Blocks, heals, Invulns but Mesmer does have some semi high mobility on top of their normal defenses. But I forget the people I am speaking with

A triple blink every 75 seconds, which requires 2/3 of your utility bar to be devoted to it along with blowing the elite mechanic with the longest CD in the game btw, is not semi high mobility. Its quite average now and leaves the mesmer relatively vulnerable due to not having blink or CS available if someone decides to jump them after they pull it off.

anduriell.6280:

babazhook.6805:

anduriell.6280:

The problem with those two classes are not the class itself but the mechanics that can be abused in some builds:

• highest mobility in game
• Highest active defense uptime in game
• Highest damage in game.

Thieves get the same armor rating as an engineer still has a massive amount of damage plus abuse of stealth, which has no counter.

If put together with spamming dodges and evades plus a massive burst that can end most of professions in a couple of seconds you see there is something broken.

No class should be able to have so many defenses and so much damage.

Stealth has counters. You mentioned one of the classes that can counter it in your post.

I will also assure you that stealth is NOT immunity like those invulns. A Good many thieves will die while stealthed.

Only counter there is against stealth is big aoe reveal or a long lasting target reveal.

There are only 2 classes With a somehow effective means to fight stealth is DH and Scrapper. Any other class in this game does not have a real counter against it.

A short stealth from time to time is ok, being able to damage from stealth or stay hidden forever is not.

But if at least the thief should trade mobility/defenses for stealth, or damage for mobility and stealth it would seem balanced. However it is not the case and the only thing that limits the impact of the thief in wvw it is just and only that it is single target.

Exclusively because thieves have to farm bags one by one is the only thing is keeping the amount of thieves relatively low. Otherwise they would be the dominant in any competitive mode.

How do YOU define counter? A counter need not be “something that totally removes stealth”.

As I see it a counter is something that can mitigate or avoid damage from a given enemy action or inflict damage in response to an enemy action.

If I am on my thief and see a thief stealth, I can counter by entering stealth myself. If I am on my warrior, I can throw up a block or dodge after a count. If I am on my ranger I can drop traps at my feet . If I am on my mesmer i can stealth or port in a different direction.

When I am on my ranged weapon user and someone throws up REFLECT , I need not end that reflect to have a counter. I can switch to a melee weapon and attack. It not required I kill that person in that attack .

One can certainly apply AOE on areas a thief stealthed in, plant marks or wells, use knockbacks, use Ranger entangle or overloads from an ele. You are not helpless.

Most stealths last all of 3 seconds base meaning your actions can mitigate much of that time in stealth.

If you are talking about STACKING stealth , that an entirely different issue , one releated to a specific weaponset. Claiming “stealth” has no counters because a person might stack it is like claiming Endure pain or blocks have no counters because a given class can run them back to back.

shall i login and make a video from me going with the blob? showing how usefull a thief is compare to many other classes that do have the range/sustain?

people who are getting smashed by a thief are getting mad but doesnt mean it needs a nerf

there u go 1 error/lucky interupt and thief is done.
thats what u never see, cus who cares if a thief dies he didnt harm u and what doesnt harm u doesnt need a nerf.

for example if a ele uses meteor in a blob and he crit hits some1 for 10k no1 cares cus blob is cluster kitten fight and no1 bothers checking anything.
but what if ele meteor cast was instant and would rain down much faster? they would smash in 1v1 no? then ele is OP as hell no? cus all of sudden they get attention because they solo and when u 1v1 and u die fast its OP and reason to complain.

well thief can do the 1v1 part as trade off we cant do a jackkitten in a blob.
i dont see the problem tbfh.

as for vid who ever says im bad, sure im never said im good.
but please go live stream and put up full lenght of live stream of u followin commander in blob fights.
u stand no chance no1 will sacrifice a spot for thief in a good PT, unless u wanna proof a point and get ur bf commander to put u with 4 guards. so u dont get pushed/pulled/interupted constantly.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Zenith.7301:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Apolo.5942:

Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.

Tell that to Warrior, Druid,Mesmer, and a lesser extent Revenant.

Druid requires a resource build up, which is also ruined by reveal as CA has a cooldown unlike black powder>hs. Druid’s only gap creator is either staff 3 or greatsword 3 (and they rarely run both), so you get a 800 leap with travel time that also doesn’t break stuns.

More importantly, druid has garbage damage compared to thief, the burst damage isn’t even comparable outside a rapid fire which is not only a channeled ability that’s easily dodged or interrupted or reflected, but forces them into a weapon with no mobility or good defenses (knockback shot is easy to dodge as ever with the indicator and cast time).

Revenant can’t disengage from fights at all, don’t know what fantasy you’re trying to concoct here. It is one of the worst classes for roaming because it has no tools whatsoever to run away short of having a mob nearby they can phase traversal to.

Mesmer is not even comparable to thief because all you need to do to a condi mesmer is kite the clones and him. Mesmer has no chasing potential. It’s got a 30 sec cf blink with shorter range than shadow step and that’s as far as they can chase. Staff and scepter clones cannot hit fleeing targets as they interrupt their animations to chase and shatters need melee proximity.

Thief and warriors are the only classes that have ridiculous burst on top of immense disengage and chase potential.

You can run away from mesmers, engineers, guardians, necromancers, and druids; you cannot run away from thieves or warriors because they’re the classes with the best mobility in the game on top of the best spike damage power builds

Hmm easily able to due high Burst with Druid you must not be playing it right, and Staff along with Stealth from CA allow for great mobility and Disengage, don’t know what world you are living in, and yes Rev can Disengage using Skills like Phase Traversal and so on if you can’t think of ways to use the classes tools to benefit in any situation isn’t my fault, ( the two classes I play in WvW are Rev and Thief) and again that’s why I said to a lesser extent Revenants since they require targets or using skills other than Phase Traversal to Disengage.

And I guess you have never seen a decent Chronomancer, depending on the skill and build they can Disengage extremely well as well as Provide decent damage between Mimic, Blink, Continuum Split, and Phase Retreat on top of Stealth. Again it just takes skill and Class knowledge to make use of these resources.

again not my problem if you don’t know how to utilize these classes to their potential and outside the box.

all of those classes allow for braindead gameplay as well, again every class is Op in this game currently and every last class needs to be nerfed hard.

I agree.

reddie.5861:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z91H8Sdk7I

there u go 1 error/lucky interupt and thief is done.
thats what u never see, cus who cares if a thief dies he didnt harm u and what doesnt harm u doesnt need a nerf.

So many things wrong with that short clip. Obviously if you run away from a zerg on foot without using skills you’re going to get run over, you had more than enough time to chain port away and use stealth. Instead you ported once and turned around to face the zerg again while your commander was still running. You don’t have to turn your character around to look behind you, the camera is separate from your movement. Getting interrupted once and then dead to a zerg is not something unique to thieves.

Now you think that’s bad for a thief imagine the other classes getting left behind and don’t have port or stealth to get away, you have both those tools and didn’t bother to use them.

Xenesis.6389:

reddie.5861:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z91H8Sdk7I

there u go 1 error/lucky interupt and thief is done.
thats what u never see, cus who cares if a thief dies he didnt harm u and what doesnt harm u doesnt need a nerf.

So many things wrong with that short clip. Obviously if you run away from a zerg on foot without using skills you’re going to get run over, you had more than enough time to chain port away and use stealth. Instead you ported once and turned around to face the zerg again while your commander was still running. You don’t have to turn your character around to look behind you, the camera is separate from your movement. Getting interrupted once and then dead to a zerg is not something unique to thieves.

Now you think that’s bad for a thief imagine the other classes getting left behind and don’t have port or stealth to get away, you have both those tools and didn’t bother to use them.

Well said. He didn’t even try to get away from the other zerg.

Still hearing all this talk of how OP Thief is and how it dominates all other classes in WvW but no one is showing any proof of how braindead easy and OP it is killing all other classes on sight. So come on people prove to us how OP and oppressive Thief is post your gameplay vids.

Shadowstep was up. Albeit just. It breaks stuns and teleports. I’d have been mashing that button.
On a point of interest I’ve downed thieves with lb ranger from 2,700 range~ away because they shadowstepped after I show the arrow but before it appeared to connect. I don’t think the time of actual contact is entirely synced with what appears to happen.
Hilarious, though. They were probably salty about how op lb ranger is.

~ Kovu

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Ghost-Thief-Gameplay-Tier-1/first

BlaqueFyre.5678:

It’s been explained how they have semi high mobility

no-one uses mimic, ever, get this double blink thing out of your mind.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

And again Mesmers don’t need High mobility and Disengage to sustain/survive….between their Blocks, heals, Invulns but Mesmer does have some semi high mobility on top of their normal defenses. But I forget the people I am speaking with

The forum warrior is strong with this one. You should probably end your posts with, “im going to go work out now”, or “posting from the gym on my phone so keeping it short” for added tosser effect.

reddie.5861:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z91H8Sdk7I

there u go 1 error/lucky interupt and thief is done.
thats what u never see, cus who cares if a thief dies he didnt harm u and what doesnt harm u doesnt need a nerf.

for example if a ele uses meteor in a blob and he crit hits some1 for 10k no1 cares cus blob is cluster kitten fight and no1 bothers checking anything.
but what if ele meteor cast was instant and would rain down much faster? they would smash in 1v1 no? then ele is OP as hell no? cus all of sudden they get attention because they solo and when u 1v1 and u die fast its OP and reason to complain.

well thief can do the 1v1 part as trade off we cant do a jackkitten in a blob.
i dont see the problem tbfh.

as for vid who ever says im bad, sure im never said im good.
but please go live stream and put up full lenght of live stream of u followin commander in blob fights.
u stand no chance no1 will sacrifice a spot for thief in a good PT, unless u wanna proof a point and get ur bf commander to put u with 4 guards. so u dont get pushed/pulled/interupted constantly.

Should put some food.

Don’t waste your dodges like that. Yea I know it’s fun to do it on a DD but you used up 2 dodges when they were nowhere near you.

Also, there was absolutely no point in trying to kite. when your whole group was retreating. Dinging someone with the shortbow isn’t going to help matters. When they come at you like that, there’s generally nothing for you to hit; you have to wait until either they go back, or they disperse a bit.

I mean, of course hindsight is 20/20, but had you done any of these things you would have made it back to spawn.

reddie’s “1 error” was smoking cigarettes.
thieves that play without stealth suck. so do mesmers.

Turk.5460:

And I looked up the posts from this “Decieverx” person you mentioned. Judging by their thief-related posts, they are an advocate for D/D power signet builds, only able to play Cloak and Dagger/Steal/Backstab burst, and whining about shadow shot when they can’t instagib other thieves. This is not a credible source for your claim.

Lol man.

I’m not here to brag, but attacking me because I have a balanced stance on the matter is ridiculous. Truly a sad day when people on these forums of all places do not know my forum name when it comes to the design of the thief.

It’s not like I’m often cited as the authority on power D/D or have been for what’s been a few years, or am one of the more vocal and knowledgeable thieves on the boards; nah, I’m just totally biased because I’m not defending my profession as being totally fair against people claiming it’s overpowered, even when I still largely disagree with them. Nope, I’m just a random no-name whiner who thinks his precious insta-gib build is all that matters, despite a long history of people coming to me to get help on playing D/D well, regardless of utilities or trait selection.

Why am I not (particularly) famous? Because power D/D is and has been garbage pretty much since close to release, and I hate playing OH pistol in general, so I’ve avoided sPvP with it altogether, and because I don’t have an amazing MLG record, and because I’m not a streamer. I play signets for fun and for an extra thrill, not to be good; just as why I play power D/D regardless of how bad it is, and why I advocate doing more for the lesser-used weapons while dialing the game in general back to keeping it fun for everyone involved. I’ll mention I’ve also split my time on S/D the past two years or so, and now play power GS reaper because it’s more fun than the frustration D/D power thief is worth bothering with.

And so many necromancers/reapers complain that the thief is overpowered. I’ll tell you now, a couple hundred hours into GS+A/D power reaper, and the kit vastly out-performs anything D/D thief is capable of performing except for strictly running away.

Fun fact, power GS reaper is also considered terrible in PvP environments because it’s not a reliable killer with AA and spamming its skills off cooldown. Too slow? Only when you don’t AA cancel or actually utilize its slowness to bait things. Who knew.

If I want to win when playing a thief, I play D/P, and there are quite a few people out there who can testify as soon as I equip an offhand pistol I immediately start winning pretty much all other struggling fights I may have been having, despite having put only a few hundred hours into the set versus over four thousand into just D/D alone. Obviously top-tier players like Min, for example (I’ve never fought Sind, and I know I’d lose) give me plenty of problems because I won’t deny I’m not as mechanically good as they are.

It doesn’t take a top-tier player to know how the game works, though, and while implementation takes an eye of scrutiny to determine how well-balanced a game is on the numerical level, it’s not particularly difficult to recognize what’s not well-designed. Sustained stealth and the entirety of Daredevil + pretty much every aspect/elite spec from HoT are all for the most part terribly-designed. I think the lone exception is the reaper because it actually did its intended job as an elite spec by mostly changing how the necro plays, not by how good it is (albeit some slight numerical power creep to make it even remotely competitive these days).

TL;DR, Daredevil isn’t overpowered compared to the rest of HoT, but like all things HoT, it’s poorly-designed and massive power-creep over the core game, and should subsequently be nerfed or outright reworked/removed alongside everything else. It’s gimmicky and dumb and lowers the skill floor massively.

Further, stacking stealth on any profession (a la trapper build with D/P), including the thief, should not exist. Sneak Gyro in concept is absurd. Mesmers shouldn’t have access to as much stealth as they do. CS and Smokescale leaping + Hunter’s Shot shouldn’t exist simultaneously with little investment on druid with such low cooldowns. If it’s really a problem for the thief, more universal buffs to the thief should be made elsewhere, because it’d help every other non-stealth kit and make the profession more fun to play against which is good for the game as a whole.

Ah that post you linked Xenesis only shows bass not knowing how to use a Condi cleanse or to not stay and fight, again show a video of you playing Thief and show casing how braindead easy and OP it is steam rolling all classes like the complainers say it can, so to the complainers, show yourself steamrolling everyone easily in even fights on Thief.

And Chorizan you may not run those but plenty of people do, not everyone blindly follows Meta Battle and they don’t need to use Mimic to double blink or Use other ports/mobility again if you can’t figure out how to maximize the class or build to what you want isn’t my problem and I am not obligated to show you.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ah that post you linked Xenesis only shows bass not knowing how to use a Condi cleanse or to not stay and fight, again show a video of you playing Thief and show casing how braindead easy and OP it is steam rolling all classes like the complainers say it can, so to the complainers, show yourself steamrolling everyone easily in even fights on Thief.

And Chorizan you may not run those but plenty of people do, not everyone blindly follows Meta Battle and they don’t need to use Mimic to double blink or Use other ports/mobility again if you can’t figure out how to maximize the class or build to what you want isn’t my problem and I am not obligated to show you.

Explain how you get a double blink off without mimic. I’d love to know your secret for this.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ah that post you linked Xenesis only shows bass not knowing how to use a Condi cleanse or to not stay and fight, again show a video of you playing Thief and show casing how braindead easy and OP it is steam rolling all classes like the complainers say it can, so to the complainers, show yourself steamrolling everyone easily in even fights on Thief.

Lol first you want to discount the multiple video proof of brain dead easy killing with a thief, and then you want me to make a video for you on a class that’s like bottom of the list for my alts. How about I only manage to play this game 2 hours a week on reset these days and not going to waste my time playing on an alt making a video for you. I’ve played every class in the game, not exactly hard to play them if you do some research and learn a class.

Never said they steamrolled all classes, just that stealth mechanic and it’s counters in this game is one of the dumbest ever implemented into a game, them being able to the do the damage that they can while in stealth is ridiculous.

Now how about you make a video for us on hard it is to play a thief since it’s your main.

Xenesis.6389:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ah that post you linked Xenesis only shows bass not knowing how to use a Condi cleanse or to not stay and fight, again show a video of you playing Thief and show casing how braindead easy and OP it is steam rolling all classes like the complainers say it can, so to the complainers, show yourself steamrolling everyone easily in even fights on Thief.

Lol first you want to discount the multiple video proof of brain dead easy killing with a thief, and then you want me to make a video for you on a class that’s like bottom of the list for my alts. How about I only manage to play this game 2 hours a week on reset these days and not going to waste my time playing on an alt making a video for you. I’ve played every class in the game, not exactly hard to play them if you do some research and learn a class.

Never said they steamrolled all classes, just that stealth mechanic and it’s counters in this game is one of the dumbest ever implemented into a game, them being able to the do the damage that they can while in stealth is ridiculous.

Now how about you make a video for us on hard it is to play a thief since it’s your main.

I’m not the one saying how OP,easy,unkillable it is so why would I posts videos? So the burden of proof is all on the complainers to showcase how OP, Easy, Unkillable it is while steamrolling like most complainers in this thread have been saying. So chop chop people. Popcorn is ready

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I’m not the one saying how OP,easy,unkillable it is so why would I posts videos? So the burden of proof is all on the complainers to showcase how OP, Easy, Unkillable it is while steamrolling like most complainers in this thread have been saying. So chop chop people. Popcorn is ready

Here you go

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Ghost-Thief-Gameplay-Tier-1/first

/munches on popcorn

I don’t think there are any genuine thief/balance advocates who suggest that Ghost thief is a justified build. It’s not inherently overpowered because it can’t maintain pressure unless the opponent stays in the area to try and fight it, but it is the result of bad design decisions made about the thief, and it is very rewarding for how little skill it takes to play. However, it doesn’t justify the thief itself being overpowered because well… you can just walk away from the build. It doesn’t actually get kills if its enemies don’t fight back. Definitely a dumb build, definitely something people want to see removed, and it definitely has no place in the game, but it isn’t the result of the thief itself being intrinsically overpowered; it’s one exploit of one mechanic which people have been asking for compensation-based buffs at its expense for years. The problem is without some form of stealth or spammy Daredevil evades the class pretty much outright sucks, so something else needs to happen if nerfing stealth.

Of course, if you nerf stealth on D/P, you end up with the scrapper or mesmer/chrono having similar stealth uptime to the thief with more innate durability which is arguably a pretty big issue for the class, which is why I said above, all stealth uptime needs to drop across the entire game. It should be a quick de-target and a few seconds to re-position, nothing more.

It’s kind of like calling mesmer as a whole overpowered and unkillable because of PU condi (and that’s just a generally better build than the trapper). It’s unfortunately just not a good idea to make that generalization.

You can claim the Daredevil (which isn’t trapper thief, btw) is easy or too forgiving with some validity, and you can claim that there are many facets of the thief in its current state which are downright frustrating to play against. However to say the thief as a whole is easy and unkillable and overpowered is a bit of an overstatement, all things considered.

Xenesis.6389:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I’m not the one saying how OP,easy,unkillable it is so why would I posts videos? So the burden of proof is all on the complainers to showcase how OP, Easy, Unkillable it is while steamrolling like most complainers in this thread have been saying. So chop chop people. Popcorn is ready

Here you go

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Ghost-Thief-Gameplay-Tier-1/first

/munches on popcorn

Still not you proving how easy and OP Thief is at being unkillable and killing every one easily like all the complainers keep saying. /popcorn ready

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Xenesis.6389:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I’m not the one saying how OP,easy,unkillable it is so why would I posts videos? So the burden of proof is all on the complainers to showcase how OP, Easy, Unkillable it is while steamrolling like most complainers in this thread have been saying. So chop chop people. Popcorn is ready

Here you go

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Ghost-Thief-Gameplay-Tier-1/first

/munches on popcorn

Still not you proving how easy and OP Thief is at being unkillable and killing every one easily like all the complainers keep saying. /popcorn ready

I still want to know how you expect a mesmer to use double blink without mimic on their bar.

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t think there are any genuine thief/balance advocates who suggest that condi trapper is a justified build. It’s not inherently overpowered because it can’t maintain pressure unless the opponent stays in the area to try and fight it, but it is the result of bad design decisions made about the thief, and it is very rewarding for how little skill it takes to play. However, it doesn’t justify the thief itself being overpowered because well… you can just walk away from the build. It doesn’t actually get kills if its enemies don’t fight back. Definitely a dumb build, definitely something people want to see removed, and it definitely has no place in the game, but it isn’t the result of the thief itself being intrinsically overpowered; it’s one exploit of one mechanic which people have been asking for compensation-based buffs at its expense for years. The problem is without some form of stealth or spammy Daredevil evades the class pretty much outright sucks, so something else needs to happen if nerfing stealth.

Of course, if you nerf stealth on D/P, you end up with the scrapper or mesmer/chrono having similar stealth uptime to the thief with more innate durability which is arguably a pretty big issue for the class, which is why I said above, all stealth uptime needs to drop across the entire game. It should be a quick de-target and a few seconds to re-position, nothing more.

It’s kind of like calling mesmer as a whole overpowered and unkillable because of PU condi (and that’s just a generally better build than the trapper). It’s unfortunately just not a good idea to make that generalization.

You can claim the Daredevil (which isn’t trapper thief, btw) is easy or too forgiving with some validity, and you can claim that there are many facets of the thief in its current state which are downright frustrating to play against. However to say the thief as a whole is easy and unkillable and overpowered is a bit of an overstatement, all things considered.

Condi trapper is a justified build. Most condi trappers do not permastealth. They use p/d for the sneak attack bleed apps and uses of torment off three.

The GHOST thief build is not what I define as a Condi thief trapper build. It only uses one trap So I can not see how it can be called a trapper build and the more dangerous versions of it do not use trapper runes. Added to that it does not even use weapons to apply damage, merely to stack stealth.

The principle mechanic inside that build is stealth stacking via d/p and I have spoken to that in the past. (you can in fact do the build with no traps and no trapper runes via the use of racial skills)

The names and labels people put on things are important because using the wrong defintions leads to unwarranted nerfs that do nothing to solve the inherent issue. Those nerfs then having broken legitimate builds, are rarely reversed at a later date when it found they did not have the desired effect.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Still not you proving how easy and OP Thief is at being unkillable and killing every one easily like all the complainers keep saying. /popcorn ready

I have to go make a video for an argument I never brought up? ok keep waiting.

Stealth is broken pos mechanic that’s my opinion, not that thieves are op unkillable machines that’s your words. If you’re that desperate for entertainment for your popcorn go look up youtube.

OriOri.8724:

I still want to know how you expect a mesmer to use double blink without mimic on their bar.

Im curious as well, please o great lord of mesmer Blaquefyre, tell us thine secrets!

Xenesis.6389:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Still not you proving how easy and OP Thief is at being unkillable and killing every one easily like all the complainers keep saying. /popcorn ready

I have to go make a video for an argument I never brought up? ok keep waiting.

Stealth is broken pos mechanic that’s my opinion, not that thieves are op unkillable machines that’s your words. If you’re that desperate for entertainment for your popcorn go look up youtube.

Did I ever say you specifically calling Thief Unkillable, OP killing machines? Nope, I said complainers there are quite a few in this thread saying they are unkillable and win every match up…. go ahead and go read every statement I was quite clear.

I only asked for each complainer to post videos showcasing their complaints and how easy and braindead each is… you complain about the Ghost thief I asked you to show how easy and braindead easy it is to kill people…. shocker.

@OriOri and Chorizan
If only there was another skill that allows you to use skills multiple times… if you can’t figure these things out on your own…. need I say?

Mesmer double blink. Blink – staff#2 is it? And swore #2 can in fact act as escapebe blinks. Jut like rev can use PT on ambaint creatures, same as giadain…I even do it on s/d thief. Regardless of the ranges, it’s stikl better then juse running.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Did I ever say you specifically calling Thief Unkillable, OP killing machines? Nope, I said complainers there are quite a few in this thread saying they are unkillable and win every match up…. go ahead and go read every statement I was quite clear.

I only asked for each complainer to post videos showcasing their complaints and how easy and braindead each is… you complain about the Ghost thief I asked you to show how easy and braindead easy it is to kill people…. shocker.

Why are you responding to me with that garbage then?
Go harass one of the “complainers” to make a video for you.
If you think ghost thief is fine I have nothing else to say to you, I already know your stance on thieves.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

@OriOri and Chorizan
If only there was another skill that allows you to use skills multiple times… if you can’t figure these things out on your own…. need I say?

I hope for your own sake you aren’t meaning continuum shift as it teleports you back to your original location. Given that we were discussing chase potential when you mentioned triple blinking it makes that a moot point and it’s also a moot point using it for escape unless someone is dumb enough to chase you when then mote is up.

Mimic is the only way to use blink multiple times to effectively chase and any mesmer that is using mimic will be either giving up decoy, mantra of distraction or portal for it, all of which are more useful either in combat, for disengage or chasing. Well MoD if you’re playing domination so it stuns instead of dazes but I don’t often see people playing domination now.

At least The Cabbage came up with genuine skills actually used by mesmers and phase retreat is great for running away. Illusionary leap is only slightly faster than running the distance flat but great for Z axis mobility on the few occasions it is useable.

Also can you stop making claims against people that they haven’t actually made? I mean if you genuinely think daredevil is high risk high reward go play sceptre ele, any form of power reaper, core spec or non meta builds. I mean you did say above not everyone follows the meta right? So it shouldn’t be that difficult for you.

Also I like how you ask everyone for proof on thier claims while only a few posts later say you’re not obligated to show how you can triple blink without mimic, the amount of double standards and poor debating from you and Turk is very high.

My two cents

Every class should have it’s place. Thief and Mesmer (among others) happen to be most at home in a small scale/solo environment. They perform better in these circumstances because they have better tools to deal with 1v1/X (up to a maximum of 3 assuming all players are mediocre. More of they’re terrible) than certain other professions. Low cooldowns, moderate – high mobility, stealth, quick-cast interrupts and strong, reliable healing skills are more efficient than high cooldowns, low mobility, little – no stealth and high risk heals. These things give these professions advantages over professions that fall in to the latter category because they can persist for longer.

Of course you can be an effective roamer with any profession if you are skilled with it and your decisions but some come with more risks than others. The same can be said with zerging, some professions come with more risks than others. Thieves die very easily in large scale combat because they don’t have the tools to survive a bomb like some other classes do.

It’s certainly true that Thieves are the dominant predator in the roaming scene and that, when played properly, they do not suffer the same risks as other classes, but there are risks all the same. There is skill in damage avoidance regardless of whether people want to admit it or not. That isn’t to say it’s highly skillful but there is still practice and patience involved, at least in the case of players who don’t mash evade repeatedly and get results because their opponent is as bad as they are.

Roaming is not a matter of balance. It’s a matter of strategy. Though there are times when things will clearly need to be adjusted, for the most part, it’s about choosing your battles and learning from the experiences. Thieves, Mesmers and other top-dog roamers are going to give you trouble 100% of the time if you’re using something that isn’t as strong or that you’re not as good with. And if you’re running a zerging build and getting rekt by roamers you kitten well better not cry “OP, OP!” because they’re prepared and you’re not.

For the record, I hate Thieves as much as anyone else. I’m not a particularly amazing player but I love solo/small scale play and I get pounded by Thieves all the time. I know how to kill the bad ones good and easy but the Thief mains, the ones that balance their evades and initiatives, etc. almost always feel like an uphill fight. And that’s why I made a build that I can use against the good Thieves for those times I’m running in to a lot of them. It’s not their fault when I’m using a glass Ranger or a vanilla Necromancer that I’m an easy kill. It’s mine because I’m stubborn and I play what I enjoy.

apharma.3741:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

@OriOri and Chorizan
If only there was another skill that allows you to use skills multiple times… if you can’t figure these things out on your own…. need I say?

I hope for your own sake you aren’t meaning continuum shift as it teleports you back to your original location. Given that we were discussing chase potential when you mentioned triple blinking it makes that a moot point and it’s also a moot point using it for escape unless someone is dumb enough to chase you when then mote is up.

Mimic is the only way to use blink multiple times to effectively chase and any mesmer that is using mimic will be either giving up decoy, mantra of distraction or portal for it, all of which are more useful either in combat, for disengage or chasing. Well MoD if you’re playing domination so it stuns instead of dazes but I don’t often see people playing domination now.

At least The Cabbage came up with genuine skills actually used by mesmers and phase retreat is great for running away. Illusionary leap is only slightly faster than running the distance flat but great for Z axis mobility on the few occasions it is useable.

Also can you stop making claims against people that they haven’t actually made? I mean if you genuinely think daredevil is high risk high reward go play sceptre ele, any form of power reaper, core spec or non meta builds. I mean you did say above not everyone follows the meta right? So it shouldn’t be that difficult for you.

Also I like how you ask everyone for proof on thier claims while only a few posts later say you’re not obligated to show how you can triple blink without mimic, the amount of double standards and poor debating from you and Turk is very high.

Did I say chase potential in any of my posts in regards to Chorizan or OriOri? No I did not they were complaining about No mobility now Continuum Split can be used in conjunction with Blink (guess what you can out run the Tether so it doesn’t port you back all the way to the Continuum Split which still increase the Travel distance on any Skill it resets but hey what do I know) they asked how can you double Blink without Mimic I told them, simple as that, and if you read back I was the original person to mention Phase retreat and other options to use as added mobility, built into weapons but hey I guess reading’s hard.

and lastly I am not calling for nerfs or complaining about Mesmer stating it is an Unkillable OP killing machine that’s easy to use, I have nothing to backup there now do I? No I was stating skill uses, pretty simple go ahaead go back and read all my comments, I asked the people complaining about how Thief is an Unkillable OP killing machine that is Braindead easy to play to prove it, since they are let just stating skill uses, they need to provide proof see the difference?

If Thief is as Unkillable OP Braindead Easy and a killing machine and wins every matchup then it shouldn’t be hard for the complainers to prove it by posting a video of them destroying everyone they come across in WvW now would it? Or are the Complainers going to make up some excuse for why they can’t?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Did I say chase potential in any of my posts in regards to Chorizan or OriOri? No I did not they were complaining about No mobility now Continuum Split can be used in conjunction with Blink (guess what you can out run the Tether so it doesn’t port you back all the way to the Continuum Split which still increase the Travel distance on any Skill it resets but hey what do I know) they asked how can you double Blink without Mimic I told them, simple as that.

Wait, where are the mobility riches that were promised to me Blaquefyre? WHERE!!11

Please demonstrate how i can run out of the tether range of my continuum split, sounds almost as plausible as running out of alimony range.

Chorazin.4107:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Did I say chase potential in any of my posts in regards to Chorizan or OriOri? No I did not they were complaining about No mobility now Continuum Split can be used in conjunction with Blink (guess what you can out run the Tether so it doesn’t port you back all the way to the Continuum Split which still increase the Travel distance on any Skill it resets but hey what do I know) they asked how can you double Blink without Mimic I told them, simple as that.

Wait, where are the mobility riches that were promised to me Blaquefyre? WHERE!!11

Please demonstrate how i can run out of the tether range of my continuum split, sounds almost as plausible as running out of alimony range.

You asked how to double Blink without Mimic I showed you Use CS, to break Tether range all you need to do is Use a second port skill after Blink like idk say About face phase retreat or sword 3 on an Ambient or Enemy you know thinking outside the box. Since you know it doesn’t port you back completely to CS mote if you out Range it

Hmmm he says, rubbing his chin.

So i can drop my continuum split(CS), blink forward and then illusionary leap to my target. Thus breaking my CS tether and never porting back to my original CS point and never refreshing any of my skills.

You are part of the Anet balance team right?

Chorazin.4107:

Hmmm he says, rubbing his chin.

So i can drop my continuum split(CS), blink forward and then illusionary leap to my target. Thus breaking my CS tether and never porting back to my original CS point and never refreshing any of my skills.

You are part of the Anet balance team right?

Exactly, this is how I view all the Complainers saying Thief is OP unkillable killing machine that’s braindead easy, anyone can make outrageous claims right that don’t fit the actual mehanics. That’s how all the complainers are, stating that a Thief can everything and never lose against any class and kill any class, with seeming no costs and ignoring all the facts, that’s why I ask those complainers to post videos to prove their complaints.

And again you and OriOri asked how to Blink Twice Without Mimic and I did tell you how, how effective it is is a completely different matter.

right now the only person that has complained but with a semi valid point has been Xenesis with Ghost Thief and how it should not be a thing, even though it isn’t OP it is one of the most stupidest things Anet has allowed to stay in the game.

You guys seem to forget my stance on the whole matter, Every single class has braindead and Op aspects, the majority of which were introduced with HoT, every single class needs to be nerfed especially the Elite Specs, all passive defenses need to be removed from the game and all classes need to not be able to Attack while in an Invulnerable state. But until they nerf all Classes at the same time it is absolutely pointless to point fingers at any one class since right now every class has braindead OP builds/aspects. there are a few other things that need to be nerfed/changed as well but those are the bigger points.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

apharma.3741:

I hope for your own sake you aren’t meaning continuum shift as it teleports you back to your original location. Given that we were discussing chase potential when you mentioned triple blinking it makes that a moot point and it’s also a moot point using it for escape unless someone is dumb enough to chase you when then mote is up.

Mimic is the only way to use blink multiple times to effectively chase and any mesmer that is using mimic will be either giving up decoy, mantra of distraction or portal for it, all of which are more useful either in combat, for disengage or chasing. Well MoD if you’re playing domination so it stuns instead of dazes but I don’t often see people playing domination now.

At least The Cabbage came up with genuine skills actually used by mesmers and phase retreat is great for running away. Illusionary leap is only slightly faster than running the distance flat but great for Z axis mobility on the few occasions it is useable.

Also can you stop making claims against people that they haven’t actually made? I mean if you genuinely think daredevil is high risk high reward go play sceptre ele, any form of power reaper, core spec or non meta builds. I mean you did say above not everyone follows the meta right? So it shouldn’t be that difficult for you.

Also I like how you ask everyone for proof on thier claims while only a few posts later say you’re not obligated to show how you can triple blink without mimic, the amount of double standards and poor debating from you and Turk is very high.

Did I say chase potential in any of my posts in regards to Chorizan or OriOri? No I did not they were complaining about No mobility now Continuum Split can be used in conjunction with Blink (guess what you can out run the Tether so it doesn’t port you back all the way to the Continuum Split which still increase the Travel distance on any Skill it resets but hey what do I know) they asked how can you double Blink without Mimic I told them, simple as that, and if you read back I was the original person to mention Phase retreat and other options to use as added mobility, built into weapons but hey I guess reading’s hard.

This just shows how little you know about Chronomancer. CS ports you back when it ends unless you escape the tether range. You use 1 blink, get ported back 1-3 seconds later and you can use your second blink. There’s no double blink here. No matter how hard you try, you will always end up exactly 1,200 units away from where you started after the second blink, which means for mobility you got exactly 1 blink out of it.

That little trick is useful for getting people to chase you in the wrong direction sure, but its useless in terms of mobility. Its absolutely useless when you are trying to chase someone down. Not only do you blow the longest CD mechanic in the game, but you are also now only 1 blink away from where you started, yet now it took you up to ~4 seconds to get there instead of an instant port, which means for the purposes of chasing someone, this is worse than just using blink on its own.

And the tether is 5,000 units long. You can’t break that in a single blink. Even if you took mimic on your bar and double blinked in CS you wouldn’t be able to outrun the tether. But that’s a moot point since you are convinced this is possible without mimic on the bar in the first place.

And your claim about “not mentioning chase potential” when responding to me is also moot because you were responding directly to a comment about Mesmer’s inability to chase a thief who decides to run away. And even if you can think of a way to argue about how this point is also irrelevant because you have no real counter argument to it, you can’t deny that using CS, blinking, then either canceling CS or waiting for it to end before blinking again is worse mobility than just using blink on its own due to the wasted time of using CS and blink before being ported back and then blinking again. Without mimic on your bar this is a party trick and is NOT good mobility.

All you have done in this thread is throw out baseless claims, throw the burden of proof on others while insisting to high heaven and back that you don’t have to prove anything you say, and deflect.

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

apharma.3741:

Snip.

Snip

This just shows how little you know about Chronomancer. Snip

And the tether is 5,000 units long. You can’t break that in a single blink. Even if you took mimic on your bar and double blinked in CS you wouldn’t be able to outrun the tether. But that’s a moot point since you are convinced this is possible without mimic on the bar in the first place.

snip

And you say I don’t know how Chronomancer works, when I don’t even Main the class, you do and think the Tether is 5000 range, newsflash it’s 1200 range, again seeing not knowing mechanics related to your main.

See as I stated before anyone can Spread misinformation it’s quite easy, so let’s see people back there claims on Thief being the unkillable killing machines all being braindead easy. Since those people have been spreading misinformation let’s keep up the trend.

No, no, you don’t understand oriori. Mobility is now defined as the absolute value of horizontal travel distance!

Honestly I don’t know why you guys are even bothering here. Anet doesn’t even look at dumpster fire threads like this one, and you can’t logic someone out of a position that they didn’t logic themselves into in the first place…

Edit: I admit that it can be frustrating watching someone post blatantly wrong information (looking at the post above me), but 4 years of posting on these forums has taught me that it’s better for your blood pressure to just let them be wrong by themselves. Arguing just encourages them.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

apharma.3741:

Snip.

Snip

This just shows how little you know about Chronomancer. Snip

And the tether is 5,000 units long. You can’t break that in a single blink. Even if you took mimic on your bar and double blinked in CS you wouldn’t be able to outrun the tether. But that’s a moot point since you are convinced this is possible without mimic on the bar in the first place.

snip

And you say I don’t know how Chronomancer works, when I don’t even Main the class, you do and think the Tether is 5000 range, newsflash it’s 1200 range, again seeing not knowing mechanics related to your main.

What were you saying about reading being hard?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

apharma.3741:

Snip.

Snip

This just shows how little you know about Chronomancer. Snip

And the tether is 5,000 units long. You can’t break that in a single blink. Even if you took mimic on your bar and double blinked in CS you wouldn’t be able to outrun the tether. But that’s a moot point since you are convinced this is possible without mimic on the bar in the first place.

snip

And you say I don’t know how Chronomancer works, when I don’t even Main the class, you do and think the Tether is 5000 range, newsflash it’s 1200 range, again seeing not knowing mechanics related to your main.

See as I stated before anyone can Spread misinformation it’s quite easy, so let’s see people back there claims on Thief being the unkillable killing machines all being braindead easy. Since those people have been spreading misinformation let’s keep up the trend.

Lol. Go try that out in the PvP lobby. Go on. I’ll wait, because the tether is 5,000 units long. If you managed to break out of it with a single blink I’ll be impressed at your ability to exploit the game but that’s about it. But until then I’ll be taking Fay’s advice here, because you clearly don’t want to admit that you are wrong.

Ok, enough arguing. I know what needs to be done to make everyone happy, or at least equally miserable.

Slap a 5 sec cooldown on these things and we should be good:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator's_Arrow
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Headshot
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Maim_the_Disillusioned
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Time_Catches_Up

I figure if it works for revenant, why not other professions?

Dude, the tooltip in-game says it’s 5000 range. ;;

I wait my 5 seconds back.

Hope there’s enough popcorn for everyone.

Xenesis.6389:

reddie.5861:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z91H8Sdk7I

there u go 1 error/lucky interupt and thief is done.
thats what u never see, cus who cares if a thief dies he didnt harm u and what doesnt harm u doesnt need a nerf.

So many things wrong with that short clip. Obviously if you run away from a zerg on foot without using skills you’re going to get run over, you had more than enough time to chain port away and use stealth. Instead you ported once and turned around to face the zerg again while your commander was still running. You don’t have to turn your character around to look behind you, the camera is separate from your movement. Getting interrupted once and then dead to a zerg is not something unique to thieves.

Now you think that’s bad for a thief imagine the other classes getting left behind and don’t have port or stealth to get away, you have both those tools and didn’t bother to use them.

did u even pay attention?
first port got interupted, i hide i believe i got a guardian wall dumped infront of me by a wild guess of him.
i use signet to evade around cus porting at that point wouldnt get me anywhere.
then i got rekt.

i said no1 cares when a thief dies cus of a little error a thief dies my guardian would just roflol stomp through with all kitten he can pop.

who ever said many classes would have died there cus of no ports or stealth on demand, correct but these many classes are able to actually enjoy the blob fights while a thief cant.

at start of video i wanted to jump on the loner there i could have finished him, but i wouldnt be able to stomp him thus it was pointless to even jump on him.
every move a thief makes around blob fights have to be done so kittening carefully

with my guard/warrior i just dash in and enjoy the endless smashing till i die
with thief i dash in and im rally bot already.

u can nerf thief all u want, i personally barely play nowadays
but in my eyes the problem isnt thief the problem in wvw is the silly classes being played from day 1 till now. these need to be changed to change the whole WvW scene thief is the least of a problem in WvW.