Guild Wars 2

Stand in red circles sure, if you see the thief pop up every now and then but trapper runes will make em get even more stealth plus superspeed. How do you assume people will know where the invisible target is and thus, know where a red circle may appear.

Stealth traps, yea sure i will do a 5sec cast to put one down and hope the thief is so blind he wont see me bend down rubbing the floor.

These arent counters chaps. Just get rid of the perma invisibility WHILE dishing out good condi damage. I can not believe the people who actually defend this but hey its about thieves so i knew it would happen anyway. Any reasonable player will say its an incredible stupid build and nope not OP but stupid.

I know perma stealth is still a thing etc but they do get them self revealed attacking.

If I can defeat Ghost Thieves on a Medi Guardian which is the worst mobility wise then yeah its easily counterable, but instead of calling for nerf why don’t you call for them to fix the real problem, which is Stealth and a redesign of thieves, since your issue is with stealth, and how thieves interact with it, but no you want to exasperated the issue by calling for band aid nerfs which have failed everythime in regards to Anet “balancing” if they stopped relying so much on forum talk and had a competent balance team to sit down and analyze the actual root issues which is Stealth itself and the design of the Thief they would be able to make a more useable balanced class that people would stop QQ’ing about, but hey even when thieves didnt rely on stealth people QQ’ed maybe they think Thieves should be free kills, but hey what do I know.

they should make a new WvW skill/mastery that is for the stealth trap. 75 points (full) has stealth traps cost no supply. 50 points increasing the range, 25 pts decreases the cost to purchase, etc..

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Being “lazy” by actively countering an ability with positioning and gameplay hmm, funny.

No the thief is being lazy for placing his black powder in a position where his opponent can easily reach it and counter it.

Puck.9612:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Being “lazy” by actively countering an ability with positioning and gameplay hmm, funny.

No the thief is being lazy for placing his black powder in a position where his opponent can easily reach it and counter it.

Ok makes more sense now, how you worded the original sounded weird as if you were talking about the non thief stepping into the BP circle.

Also, if a Thief sees someone running at his Black Powder, can’t he just move away until his abilities are appropriately cooled down? Then you never actually have a chance to fight the Thief. They’re either stealthed, or they’re away. Relying on the Thief to play like he’s brainless doesn’t seem like a good counter to me.

Terrible design that shouldn’t exist.

The thief needs to stack the stealth the stealth provided doesn’t last more than a few seconds each time, outside of getting enough stacks or SR

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have LITTLE to do with this. The bulk of stealth comes off d/p . Setting a trap using runes gives at most 4 seconds stealth.

While I think D/P has been broken since release, the issue with trapper runes is that they allow a player to drop 3 traps and a few caltrops under a player without being revealed. Add in a steal that does damage/conditions and doesn’t reveal then a heal that drops an additional trap and cloaks the player. All of this uses zero initiative so a thief is still sitting on plenty of D/P stealth, damage or escape.

Offair.2563:

Stand in red circles sure, if you see the thief pop up every now and then but trapper runes will make em get even more stealth plus superspeed. How do you assume people will know where the invisible target is and thus, know where a red circle may appear.

Stealth traps, yea sure i will do a 5sec cast to put one down and hope the thief is so blind he wont see me bend down rubbing the floor.

These arent counters chaps. Just get rid of the perma invisibility WHILE dishing out good condi damage. I can not believe the people who actually defend this but hey its about thieves so i knew it would happen anyway. Any reasonable player will say its an incredible stupid build and nope not OP but stupid.

I know perma stealth is still a thing etc but they do get them self revealed attacking.

Bet you the defenders of the ghost thief are the same that were crying for PU nerfs and are still asking for PU condi nerfs now.

Thing a lot of people here haven’t realised is these thieves can sit in a keep and almost never show themselves, not even a sign they’re there and bam, lord down and capped before swords appear.

apharma.3741:

Thing a lot of people here haven’t realised is these thieves can sit in a keep and almost never show themselves, not even a sign they’re there and bam, lord down and capped before swords appear.

Sort of. While testing this build, I tried this on a tower and because I never proc’d a reveal the guards just kept resetting and healing. If a thief does reveal for a couple seconds it does work though. Staying in the tower by running CnD off a door between trap drops was cheap as hell BTW.

Straegen.2938:

apharma.3741:

Thing a lot of people here haven’t realised is these thieves can sit in a keep and almost never show themselves, not even a sign they’re there and bam, lord down and capped before swords appear.

Sort of. While testing this build, I tried this on a tower and because I never proc’d a reveal the guards just kept resetting and healing. If a thief does reveal for a couple seconds it does work though. Staying in the tower by running CnD off a door between trap drops was cheap as hell BTW.

Tip: Use thieves guild to keep them in combat.

Edit: You might want 2 thieves for keeps to burn them down before anyone can get there but then power might be better for that but less forgiveable.

@a pharmacy
Saying they won’t have a sign that they are there is a lie, Black Powder leaves red rings, and same with Sr which has a huge house over it, thieves relying on setting traps to maintain perma stealth is next to impossible due to the small uptime of the stealth provided vs the CD of traps, they rely on D/P for the permastealth, which again has a tell with the red aoe from the BP. the Trapper Rune Provides 3 secs of stealth per trap placed with a max of three traps and MwS that’s 12 secs total that gives no indication, while the need to use the BP to keep it going till traps are off CD… so there are indications that a thief is there, a thief can do all of these things without the Trapper Runes, the runes just make it easier. not trying to directly defending just stating flaws in your argument, I’m supporting a redesign for this crap not a bandaid nerf.

So instead of crying nerf, cry for stealth and thief redesign, and make everyone happy, because I know thieves are tired of being in a crap position build wise, and most players hate the stealth mechanic that Anet implemented, they can redesign it to make a better experience for everyone and stop all the crying from both sides.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

@a pharmacy
Saying they won’t have a sign that they are there is a lie, Black Powder leaves red rings, and same with Sr which has a huge house over it, thieves relying on setting traps to maintain perma stealth is next to impossible due to the small uptime of the stealth provided vs the CD of traps, they rely on D/P for the permastealth, which again has a tell with the red aoe from the BP. the Trapper Rune Provides 3 secs of stealth per trap placed with a max of three traps and MwS that’s 12 secs total that gives no indication, while the need to use the BP to keep it going till traps are off CD… so there are indications that a thief is there, a thief can do all of these things without the Trapper Runes, the runes just make it easier. not trying to directly defending just stating flaws in your argument, I’m supporting a redesign for this crap not a bandaid nerf.

So instead of crying nerf, cry for stealth and thief redesign, and make everyone happy, because I know thieves are tired of being in a crap position build wise, and most players hate the stealth mechanic that Anet implemented, they can redesign it to make a better experience for everyone and stop all the crying from both sides.

Trapper runes give superspeed, with that you can run to places where people can’t see you BP/HS. Maybe you find problems because you just BP/HS and SR infront of people but generally when I stealth I do it out of LoS.

And before you say no point stealthing if out of LoS, your “Gold [Server name] invader” tag shows up for miles and even around corners.

I don’t run stealth thief builds, I have fought against them and if you know in your server meta people are running Ghost Thieves you need to do better sweeps…. I have only ever ran S/D and S/P since Launch after the initial getting to know the Thief class. But again Thieves are the problem, it’s Anet’s lazy way of handling stealth that’s the problem, even Thieves hate their reliance on stealth, if they put a better stealth system that wasn’t easily spammable and provided a redesigned /rebalance Thief class then it would fix the majority of the problems.

why dont they just make it so laying a trap gives a short reveal?

Not damage, but putting the trap down so you at least see where it is.

Mightybird.6034:

why dont they just make it so laying a trap gives a short reveal?

Not damage, but putting the trap down so you at least see where it is.

because thieves aren’t the only class using traps.

Puck.9612:

Mightybird.6034:

why dont they just make it so laying a trap gives a short reveal?

Not damage, but putting the trap down so you at least see where it is.

because thieves aren’t the only class using traps.

= nerf thieves only because we all want to keep our cool stuff.

Jana.6831:

Puck.9612:

Mightybird.6034:

why dont they just make it so laying a trap gives a short reveal?

Not damage, but putting the trap down so you at least see where it is.

because thieves aren’t the only class using traps.

= nerf thieves only because we all want to keep our cool stuff.

= make traps work the same way across all professions. The same reason they took ground targeted traps away from rangers.

I hadn’t WvW for a while so was rusty as heck when I ran into a trapper thief on my Condi necro, nearly had the bigger but mistimed my dang Doom.

He was extremely annoying though, but he didn’t run, so it was an interesting fight. Something should be done though, I think stealth traps should function like siege disabler, being a thrown grenade rather than a line trap.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Puck they may not have access to a reveal skill but they do to Stealth Disruptor, which was put in so all classes have access to reveal, there’s also pressuring the Black Powder field, there are ways to counter this hell even if your run condi cleanse the thief will have alot harder time to kill you, but people don’t want to do this, they say it’s an inconvenience and that there are better options for utilities or traits and items to use, well if you are dying to trapper thief that easy those aren’t better options for you.

yes it’s a gimmicky build yes it has counters to it, yes Anet knew what they were doing before making the changes to thief traps, actually use the advice to counter it and it won’t be an issue, but I hope it brings attention to The state of the thief and get Anet to redesign the class so it gets fixed so gimmicky builds like this don’t pop up.

I’m sorry but having to buy and carry stealth disruptor traps and the 10 supply required for each of them to even have a possible ‘counter’, if we can even call it that, is just not reasonable nor acceptable. You can’t always keep that much supply at all time anyway. Beside why do I have to shell money and token to counter that BS? A skill should be countered by a skill, not resources.

For me resorting to an argument like the stealth disruptor is the litmus test of good faith in this debate.

IMO stealth should not stack and all stealth should have a 1s reveal tacked on the end if exited without attacking. I think that adds enough cool down so as to avoid perma-stealth without utterly breaking builds.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

@a pharmacy
Saying they won’t have a sign that they are there is a lie, Black Powder leaves red rings, and same with Sr which has a huge house over it, thieves relying on setting traps to maintain perma stealth is next to impossible due to the small uptime of the stealth provided vs the CD of traps, they rely on D/P for the permastealth, which again has a tell with the red aoe from the BP. the Trapper Rune Provides 3 secs of stealth per trap placed with a max of three traps and MwS that’s 12 secs total that gives no indication, while the need to use the BP to keep it going till traps are off CD… so there are indications that a thief is there, a thief can do all of these things without the Trapper Runes, the runes just make it easier. not trying to directly defending just stating flaws in your argument, I’m supporting a redesign for this crap not a bandaid nerf.

There are other adjustments to consider. Thieves can actually drop 4 traps every 30s. Steal for stealth every 20s and with Improv guards typically give two more stealths. That alone is almost enough to stay in perma-stealth. Add in CnD rather than D/P and a thief can easily say completely cloaked with no visible easily signs other than caltrops.

It’ll also be interesting to see what the removal of guard stacks does. That offered both extra vitality and extra condi damage to these builds. Removing that may (for those who manage to cleave them) down them – and for those that can’t – take slightly less condi damage.

I’m almost in favour of increasing the trap timer (as in lay one every 35s instead of 25s). That’s less access to stealth and less access to condi bombs.

It’s always been very clear that they don’t care about balance in WvW, but now trap runes are being added to PvP. Shouldn’t be too long before they address this bullkitten build.

Puck.9612:

It’s always been very clear that they don’t care about balance in WvW, but now trap runes are being added to PvP. Shouldn’t be too long before they address this bullkitten build.

Without food buffs, condi stacks, guard stacks and dire gear – the trapper build may not be as strong as you think.

Add to that you can neither cap nor decap from stealth either, so that means you cannot protect a point and need to whittle down an opponent (without being able to prior trap) to contest/decap a point.

It may not be quite as bad as you think.

Puck.9612:

= make traps work the same way across all professions. The same reason they took ground targeted traps away from rangers.

so u want to compare em traps..

the damaging ranger traps do have lower cd then the thief ones also they can apply in total : 6 stacks bleeding + 3 stacks poison + 3 stacks burning

while the thief will do 3 stacks bleeding +1 stack poison or if u count the needle trap twice coz also on heal then it is its 6 stacks bleeding + 2 stacks poison ..

still missing 1 stack poison and 3 stacks burning ah and lower cd. if u make thief trapps apply more condition and lower their cd to the ranger ones..then u can also add em direct dmg.

Chips.7968:

Puck.9612:

It’s always been very clear that they don’t care about balance in WvW, but now trap runes are being added to PvP. Shouldn’t be too long before they address this bullkitten build.

Without food buffs, condi stacks, guard stacks and dire gear – the trapper build may not be as strong as you think.

Add to that you can neither cap nor decap from stealth either, so that means you cannot protect a point and need to whittle down an opponent (without being able to prior trap) to contest/decap a point.

It may not be quite as bad as you think.

A thief’s main job is to decap, super speed + teleports makes for some pretty fast rotations. While they still won’t be able to 1v1 a few classes they will make short work of the signet necros who rely on transfers to remove their condi’s. For +1’ing a fight, you won’t burst someone as fast as zerk or marauder but you will bring a crap ton of cc and load them up with condi damage, that will be enough to take out most people.

Dire really isn’t necessary with this build since stealth should prevent you from taking a lot of direct damage. A thief will get by just fine with carrion.

I can see this being about on the same level as burn guardian. Not very effective against organized teams but ridiculously strong in unranked.

MUDse.7623:

Puck.9612:

= make traps work the same way across all professions. The same reason they took ground targeted traps away from rangers.

so u want to compare em traps..

the damaging ranger traps do have lower cd then the thief ones also they can apply in total : 6 stacks bleeding + 3 stacks poison + 3 stacks burning

while the thief will do 3 stacks bleeding +1 stack poison or if u cound the needle trap twice coz also on heal then it is its 6 stacks bleeding + 2 stacks poison ..

still missing 1 stack poison and 3 stacks burning ah and lower cd. if u make thief trapps apply more condition and lower their cd to the ranger ones..then u can also add em direct dmg.

The ranger trap that applies bleeding has a longer cooldown than the thief traps that apply condi’s and it’s the only one with a cc that they can’t just dodgeroll out of.

Not only does a rangers traps reveal him but his pet never get stealth so there is no way for the ranger to disengage without being seen.

Ranger can’t stealth and dodge roll over his opponent to add a bunch of bleeds. Ranger gets burning, thief gets a lot more bleeds and cc.

Puck.9612:

MUDse.7623:

Puck.9612:

= make traps work the same way across all professions. The same reason they took ground targeted traps away from rangers.

so u want to compare em traps..

the damaging ranger traps do have lower cd then the thief ones also they can apply in total : 6 stacks bleeding + 3 stacks poison + 3 stacks burning

while the thief will do 3 stacks bleeding +1 stack poison or if u cound the needle trap twice coz also on heal then it is its 6 stacks bleeding + 2 stacks poison ..

still missing 1 stack poison and 3 stacks burning ah and lower cd. if u make thief trapps apply more condition and lower their cd to the ranger ones..then u can also add em direct dmg.

The ranger trap that applies bleeding has a longer cooldown than the thief traps that apply condi’s and it’s the only one with a cc that they can’t just dodgeroll out of.

and here i thought u r main ranger.
needle trap 30s cd – 24 if traited.
spike trap 25s cd – 20 if traited.

Puck.9612:

Not only does a rangers traps reveal him but his pet never get stealth so there is no way for the ranger to disengage without being seen.

a thief doesnt need traps to escape unseen so its not a valid argument to nerf the rune / traps.

Puck.9612:

Ranger can’t stealth and dodge roll over his opponent to add a bunch of bleeds. Ranger gets burning, thief gets a lot more bleeds and cc.

yes ranger doesnt apply conditions per dogge but can apply alot more condition preassure with his weapons + pet also he can use sigils that apply conditions on weapon swap like doom or geomancy coz the only thing he losses when he gets revealed is that he is being seen. the thief will loose his condition cleanse , his heal (as he uses skill #6 offensivly for 2nd needle trap) if we speak about a thief that also gets revealed lets say p/d trapper thief .. he also wont use geomancy / doom that easy as he needs stealth for sneak attack.

dont get me wrong i want them traps to reveal the thief like u. but in return i want a thief to do same condi preassure other condi builds can like rangers, engis , mesmers or nekros.

Puck.9612:

A thief’s main job is to decap, super speed + teleports makes for some pretty fast rotations.

For which shadowstep is better for mobility other than shadow trap…

Puck.9612:

While they still won’t be able to 1v1 a few classes they will make short work of the signet necros who rely on transfers to remove their condi’s. For +1’ing a fight, you won’t burst someone as fast as zerk or marauder but you will bring a crap ton of cc and load them up with condi damage, that will be enough to take out most people.

The needle trap does 1 stack of poison and 3 stacks of bleed – admittedly 10s – but it’s not that powerful without the buffs of food/guard stacks/condi stacks (totally 1k damage over 10s as a base). A power thief’s auto attack in a mele is more damaging, and also applies poison. The food for duration and extra condi damage and guard stacks do a LOT for this damage. Obviously building carrion will help, but you’ll be glassy… a few hits and you’ll go down (stealth or not).

The reason dire works so well is that you can have about 24k health.

Puck.9612:

Dire really isn’t necessary with this build since stealth should prevent you from taking a lot of direct damage. A thief will get by just fine with carrion.

Most of my thief kills come whilst they’re in stealth… they pop out in downed state. So stealth isn’t that amazing at damage mitigation.

Puck.9612:

I can see this being about on the same level as burn guardian. Not very effective against organized teams but ridiculously strong in unranked.

I can’t.. .burn guardian can do huge damage in a short time due to burn being very powerful. A trap thief requires 10s to do lots of damage… and that’s without any buffs.

Now I don’t know the full strength as i’m not in pvp – but i can look it up for the traps. I really do think you’re comparing what happens in wvw as if that’s how it’ll be in pvp. It won’t…

Whether celestial will give a nice mix between condi and being able to still do some nice spike damage though is another matter. But to direct damage spike they won’t be invisible.

MUDse.7623:

Puck.9612:

MUDse.7623:

Puck.9612:

= make traps work the same way across all professions. The same reason they took ground targeted traps away from rangers.

so u want to compare em traps..

the damaging ranger traps do have lower cd then the thief ones also they can apply in total : 6 stacks bleeding + 3 stacks poison + 3 stacks burning

while the thief will do 3 stacks bleeding +1 stack poison or if u cound the needle trap twice coz also on heal then it is its 6 stacks bleeding + 2 stacks poison ..

still missing 1 stack poison and 3 stacks burning ah and lower cd. if u make thief trapps apply more condition and lower their cd to the ranger ones..then u can also add em direct dmg.

The ranger trap that applies bleeding has a longer cooldown than the thief traps that apply condi’s and it’s the only one with a cc that they can’t just dodgeroll out of.

and here i thought u r main ranger.
needle trap 30s cd – 24 if traited.
spike trap 25s cd – 20 if traited.

Puck.9612:

Not only does a rangers traps reveal him but his pet never get stealth so there is no way for the ranger to disengage without being seen.

a thief doesnt need traps to escape unseen so its not a valid argument to nerf the rune / traps.

Puck.9612:

Ranger can’t stealth and dodge roll over his opponent to add a bunch of bleeds. Ranger gets burning, thief gets a lot more bleeds and cc.

yes ranger doesnt apply conditions per dogge but can apply alot more condition preassure with his weapons + pet also he can use sigils that apply conditions on weapon swap like doom or geomancy coz the only thing he losses when he gets revealed is that he is being seen. the thief will loose his condition cleanse , his heal (as he uses skill #6 offensivly for 2nd needle trap) if we speak about a thief that also gets revealed lets say p/d trapper thief .. he also wont use geomancy / doom that easy as he needs stealth for sneak attack.

dont get me wrong i want them traps to reveal the thief like u. but in return i want a thief to do same condi preassure other condi builds can like rangers engis , mesmers or nekros.

I do main a ranger, you clearly don’t play one and are going off the incorrect cooldown that is shown on the build editor. Nice try though.

A ranger running traps is also sacrificing his condi cleanse since he isn’t able to use his survival skills. EB is completely worthless now that condi’s are so bursty. If you live long enough for them to transfer to your pet it instantly kills them pet and you are left without your profession mechanic or a way to remove condi’s.

A ranger also sacrifices his options for removing immobilize which is a death sentence in WvW. A thief still has withdraw and teleports that allow him to ignore immobilize.

The reason thief traps don’t offer the same condi damage as ranger traps is because they provide much better CC and utility.

Puck.9612:

A ranger running traps is also sacrificing his condi cleanse since he isn’t able to use his survival skills. .

SO IS A THIEF (to a degree). Have you played the ‘ghost thief’ build at all?

Chips.7968:

Puck.9612:

A thief’s main job is to decap, super speed + teleports makes for some pretty fast rotations.

For which shadowstep is better for mobility other than shadow trap…

Puck.9612:

While they still won’t be able to 1v1 a few classes they will make short work of the signet necros who rely on transfers to remove their condi’s. For +1’ing a fight, you won’t burst someone as fast as zerk or marauder but you will bring a crap ton of cc and load them up with condi damage, that will be enough to take out most people.

The needle trap does 1 stack of poison and 3 stacks of bleed – admittedly 10s – but it’s not that powerful without the buffs of food/guard stacks/condi stacks (totally 1k damage over 10s as a base). A power thief’s auto attack in a mele is more damaging, and also applies poison. The food for duration and extra condi damage and guard stacks do a LOT for this damage. Obviously building carrion will help, but you’ll be glassy… a few hits and you’ll go down (stealth or not).

The reason dire works so well is that you can have about 24k health.

Puck.9612:

Dire really isn’t necessary with this build since stealth should prevent you from taking a lot of direct damage. A thief will get by just fine with carrion.

Most of my thief kills come whilst they’re in stealth… they pop out in downed state. So stealth isn’t that amazing at damage mitigation.

Puck.9612:

I can see this being about on the same level as burn guardian. Not very effective against organized teams but ridiculously strong in unranked.

I can’t.. .burn guardian can do huge damage in a short time due to burn being very powerful. A trap thief requires 10s to do lots of damage… and that’s without any buffs.

Now I don’t know the full strength as i’m not in pvp – but i can look it up for the traps. I really do think you’re comparing what happens in wvw as if that’s how it’ll be in pvp. It won’t…

Whether celestial will give a nice mix between condi and being able to still do some nice spike damage though is another matter. But to direct damage spike they won’t be invisible.

It’s a lot easier to avoid direct damage with a condi build because you apply the condi’s and move off. This is especially easy if you can remain in stealth while doing it since they won’t be able to see what to avoid, and in PvP you are fighting over a point so it’s not like they can run away unless they are willing to give up the point.

I wasn’t comparing a burn guard’s and condi thief’s burst damage, I was saying it would be roughly as effective. Not great against organized teams, but against players in unranked, most of which yolo queued and aren’t on voice coms, it will be a ridiculously strong build.

Chips.7968:

Puck.9612:

A ranger running traps is also sacrificing his condi cleanse since he isn’t able to use his survival skills. .

SO IS A THIEF (to a degree). Have you played the ‘ghost thief’ build at all?

Yes I have. Losing 1 condi every 3 seconds while avoiding every player targeted condi skill is not a sacrifice.

Chips.7968:

Puck.9612:

A ranger running traps is also sacrificing his condi cleanse since he isn’t able to use his survival skills. .

SO IS A THIEF (to a degree). Have you played the ‘ghost thief’ build at all?

i played ghost thief and never had probs with conditions even if i stepped into a necros staff 4 that just gave me back my ’op condi burst ’.

now to thief traps again the ONLY TRAP THAT DEALSS DMG does immobilze yes and u have 1 trap that knocks ..now thief can -to get more cc- use trip wire but thats just cc no condi preassure (apart from 5 vuln stacks + 5 might through the trait )

and ur compariosn of brun vs some bleed stacks (most ppl move out of caltrops very fast) + cc? that immob is a condition. if u have enough condi remove to remove rangers condis u also have enough to get rid of the thief ones. im sure most ghost thieves would like a burn trap instead of that immob+caltrop on dogge.

n yes ur right i dont play ranger and use that build editor. but i fought against both builds and IMO a ghost thief has alot lower condi preassure compared to ranger.

as already metioned a few times as the thief traps had direct dmg nobody used em , so just re-adding that wont be a good fix.

i still see more trapper rangers around then ghost thieves ..altho the poor rangers get revealed – so it cant be a too bad build.

MUDse.7623:

Chips.7968:

Puck.9612:

A ranger running traps is also sacrificing his condi cleanse since he isn’t able to use his survival skills. .

SO IS A THIEF (to a degree). Have you played the ‘ghost thief’ build at all?

i played ghost thief and never had probs with conditions even if i stepped into a necros staff 4 that just gave me back my ’op condi burst ’.

now to thief traps again the ONLY TRAP THAT DEALSS DMG does immobilze yes and u have 1 trap that knocks ..now thief can -to get more cc- use trip wire but thats just cc no condi preassure (apart from 5 vuln stacks + 5 might through the trait )

and ur compariosn of brun vs some bleed stacks (most ppl move out of caltrops very fast) + cc? that immob is a condition. if u have enough condi remove to remove rangers condis u also have enough to get rid of the thief ones. im sure most ghost thieves would like a burn trap instead of that immob+caltrop on dogge.

n yes ur right i dont play ranger and use that build editor. but i fought against both builds and IMO a ghost thief has alot lower condi preassure compared to ranger.

as already metioned a few times as the thief traps had direct dmg nobody used em , so just re-adding that wont be a good fix.

i still see more trapper rangers around then ghost thieves ..altho the poor rangers get revealed – so it cant be a too bad build.

It is a bad build but it’s easy and bursty so people play it.
I agree trapper ranger applies more condi pressure but it is also a lot riskier than trapper thief. Even with direct damage added to some of the thief traps they would still have the safer build.

but with reveal on traps the ‘safest’ condi build wont be a thief but a mesmer.

Puck.9612:

Yes I have. Losing 1 condi every 3 seconds while avoiding every player targeted condi skill is not a sacrifice.

Takes 3s to lose 1 condition, starting after 3s. Without shadowstep or signet of agility, your only means to remove confusion and torment are via stealth.

It takes 1s to stealth (even with hide in shadows) and if you’re not running hide in shadows, then burn can be added to the list to remove.

A burn/confusion bomb can kill you before your stealth removes the condition. Simple fact. Compared to shadowstep and signet of agility (instant removals) – whilst hide in shadows offers a good degree of condition removal it also doesn’t remove those movement impairing conditions – meaning the thief was where you saw them upon application.

Since it can take up to 4s to remove a burn/confusion bomb (and assuming it removes the most damaging condition – otherwise it’s now 7s) if you’ve not used hide in shadows to heal… whilst it’s a good means of removing conditions, it’s not amazing. For example, a warrior swapping weapon sets can remove 2 every 5s whilst still smashing you for massive direct damage IF they’ve a sigil of cleansing on the weapons. That’s more cleansing than a thief’s stealth (but who knows what conditions it’ll remove, so not necessarily damaging ones) and still smacking you hard.

Now add to this that you want thieves revealed on traps… which negates the entire condition removal method you’re talking about; safe to condi bomb the revealed thief as it’ll now be UP to 7s before they can clear 1* condition using stealth.

I’ve said before, happy for a change to be made – but it’s got to be one that’s done right and not just rushed to placate the incessant moaning; you’d quite happily destroy and invalidate an entire build (no matter how boring it is to actually play!) simply to enable you to win against it.

I’ve said elsewhere, you shouldn’t roll one build and expect to win against every build. So one particular thief build can appear to dominate due to a single rune… but changing how the traps work will invalidate traps use for any thief, regardless of rune.

Change the darned rune… but suddenly that means others won’t have as much “fun” playing their traps with the rune. So the idea is to change thief?

Decide – is it the rune that’s the issue here (gives unlimited stealth easy) or just qq over thieves and their stealth. I say that because… the traps will be just as deadly whether you see a thief or not.

*obviously heals and/or use of tricks with trait to remove 1 condition can change that dramatically – but traps aren’t tricks so…

problem is :

if u just change the rune to do something diffrent then stealth u affect other builds/classes of rangers or DH in a few days. also thief still CAN stay 100% invis
while killing u so ppl will still demand nerf.

if u change the thief traps they wont be used as before coz there is no condi thief build
that doesnt rely on stealth so a reveal on activation of the trap can have unwanted side effects also a reveal on placing the trapp is just ridicolous coz u can then just dogge the trap as they only apply condis on triggering.

so at the end u need to kind of rework thief (& stealth) – that is kind of due for a long time but i doubt it will happen soon.

btw why r there 2-3 threads ( 1 here , 2 thief forum) about this thread ongoing with same ppl same agruments and same non existent results?

You do realize that the bulk of the skills that inflict conditions require a target to land them. If you are in stealth 100% of them time they will never land these, the only ones they can hit you with are aoe skills, which will fall off of you in 3 seconds since they can’t load you up with cover conditions.

You are arguing that thief should be unkillable in a 1v1 fight unless they are an absolutely kitten player.

As multiple people have pointed out, thieves can keep up perma stealth without traps. If traps triggered revealed and you are fighting and realize you need to heal up/clear condi’s you could still use your weapon skills to disengage and stealth, and then move to a safe spot to drop traps where no one will trigger them.

Having a reveal on the traps won’t break them, it will just prevent you from spamming them mindlessly, and provide your opponents with an opening for some counter play.

Puck.9612:

you could still use your weapon skills to disengage and stealth, and then move to a safe spot to drop traps where no one will trigger them.

Are you reading your posts… why would you run away in stealth to drop traps in stealth where no-one will trigger them – utter ridiculous insanity. Why not just make them do no condi’s instead?

Drop shadow refuge, use steal (3s stealth), use d/p. You can’t keep 100% stealth without d/p by the way. And people say thieves can keep 100% stealth with d/p already… so again you’re targeting traps over perma stealth when they don’t cause it; it exists.

I don’t think you know what’s the problem – is it the trap, the condi’s or the stealth. Your responses indicate you’ve no coherent issue/answer; you’re grasping at a straw “DESTROY TEH TRAPS”.

If perma stealth is the issue, then it needs looking at to address that.

Alternative solutions to your concerns:
1) Reduce conditions on traps – they’re not as deadly and therefore won’t kill; thief will need to do more which will include getting revealed as they’d need to apply condi’s another way.

2) Increase cooldown on traps. If instead of once every 25s they drop them once every 35s … it should address your issues. If your issue is perma stealth, then maybe not. But is it permastealth or doing damage from stealth? If the latter, then they’re 40% less effective just by changing the cooldown.

Your only elected solution is telling; you have thieves. Period.

Chaba.5410:

Jana.6831:

Chaba.5410:

It’s already been qq’d about multiple times. No it doesn’t have to do with “being built around stealth” either. Your statement begs the question just what do you think engineer is “built around”?

Read a bit about thief traits – most of it is tied to stealth – take that away and thief has got no access to condi cleanse, regeneration, damage migation and so on.
Engi might have access to stealth but the class can well live without it, just like rangers and mesmers.

Not entirely true. If you make your build completely reliant on Shadow Arts, that’s your weakness. And you didn’t address my statement regarding thief having the best access to stealth.

I play without SA and have played without SA since probably a week after release. I think the line is passive and boring to use because it promotes not acting but instead standing around invisible and resetting a fight.

Sad part is, I still need stealth. I would forgo it entirely if I could. The problem is, I can’t backstab without it, nor can I place good blind/daze pressure off S/D’s tactical strike.

S/P is weak unless it ganks and P/P is binary with no real room for skill to decide fights. Both run out of initiative too fast and are dependent on spamming 3 for damage.

D/P is just boring because it’s meant for stealth campers.

Problems regarding stealth are dependent on what can happen while in stealth. For thieves, it’s ghost trapper being able to maintain stealth and deal substantial condition pressure and CC simultaneously, for mesmers, it’s massive ranged condition pressure and damage mitigation or outright prevention.

Trapper runes shouldn’t apply stealth; they should buff trap skill damage or apply an effect like cripple or poison or something more generic to make them a bit stronger. The decision, like other rune sets, should be based on build, with some reasonable alternatives or considerations, both with benefits and shortcomings, not a build based around a rune set.

Condition application should reveal stealthed players, and trapper runes should have a five second ICD. This fixes trapper thieves maintaining permanent stealth via the ICD and stacked traps, PU condi overload mesmer from being extremely difficult to deal with by making them face difficult build decisions of either durability or damage, trapper rangers from just putting a dot of traps down and intermittently getting stealth as a reposition tool/untargetable tool, prevents dragonhunters from stacking stealth on the traps, and so on.

Right now, traps and stealth are both really broken and just plain annoying. I get stealth attacks from the thief or the vision of it constantly phasing in and out, but sustained stealth shouldn’t be a concept that ANet should promote without fair and reasonable counters.

till now this discussion is leading to nowhere soo next try :

main issue : annoyance level of the build – that is the real issue of ghost thief its annoying at an unhealthy level for the game.

possible solution:

1) reduce thieves condition applying options via utility/steal/dogge what ever and improve the conditons on weapon skills. cause atm the weapon skills apply so few conditions that its not worth taking the risk of being reveald for that bit of extra dmg.
so basically shifiting conditionpreassure from utility to weapon skills.

feel free to add other possible solutions to the annoyance level.

other problems metioned in this thread: perma stealth, condition preassure, trapper rune as such.

perma stealth has allways been a problem and the only harmfull perma stealth build is ghost thief tho the ‘solution’ i offered could help there as weapon skills reveal on hit. so a thief should not be able to remain stealthed while dealing deadly damage.

condition preassure: overall a thief does not do too much condition preassure compared to other classes but too much while remaining stealthed- so shifting the conditions to weapon skills would fix this too.

trapper runes: well here u can argue wheter they r OP or not.. atm they work too well with trapper thief but if a thief wont need to rely on traps to apply his condis- then there will be other/better options rune wise. cant talk about ranger/dh as i dont play em.

edit: dh/ranger stealth is fine as it is just opener stealth and they wont stay in stealth for a major part of the fight.
mesmers is another point but well i bet they will get a lot of nerves anyway as all kind of chronomancer builds are considered OP coz of alacrity + invuln ..also the PU nerf from 2x base duration to 1,5x .. but with chronomancer and perm alacrity mesmer can stay even more stealthed then before. u could try a chrono + chaos +illusion mesmer to stay in stealth for a major part of the fight and be invuln when visible ..as u might not need the clone on dogge with chronomancer

Chips.7968:

Puck.9612:

you could still use your weapon skills to disengage and stealth, and then move to a safe spot to drop traps where no one will trigger them.

Are you reading your posts… why would you run away in stealth to drop traps in stealth where no-one will trigger them – utter ridiculous insanity.

…..To remain in stealth without spending a bunch of initiative. Do you drop your shadow refuge directly in front of an enemy that has the ability to aoe bomb the crap out of it or knock you out with a cc, or do you try to get to get to a relatively safe spot to drop it?

Since the discussion seems to be over your head let me break it down for you Barney style.

Perma stealth with indicators that takes all of a thief’s initiative to keep up and is no threat to anyone= fine.
Perma stealth with a bunch of CC and condi damage that easily kills other players= broken

Best way to fix this= add direct damage to needle trap and tripwire

IIRC tripwire used to have a damage component. Haven’t touched the skill in ages, though, so it could still be there or it hasn’t had it for quite some time.

Puck.9612:

…..To remain in stealth without spending a bunch of initiative. Do you drop your shadow refuge directly in front of an enemy that has the ability to aoe bomb the crap out of it or knock you out with a cc, or do you try to get to get to a relatively safe spot to drop it?

Since the discussion seems to be over your head let me break it down for you Barney style.

Perma stealth with indicators that takes all of a thief’s initiative to keep up and is no threat to anyone= fine.
Perma stealth with a bunch of CC and condi damage that easily kills other players= broken

Best way to fix this= add direct damage to needle trap and tripwire

Right – read your posts again kitten . You claim thieves should “run away to drop traps away from anyone in order to stay in stealth”.

Then when I point out that you’re now saying thieves should use an offensive weapon only to ‘stay in stealth’ which is fricken dumb as they’ve far better alternatives which won’t risk revealing them.

Now you’re saying “But you don’t drop shadow refuge infront of your enemy” – so how are you going to “run away somewhere to drop a trap where it won’t be triggered”. Are you going to MAGIC your way? Or are you going to drop one of those traps that’ll fricken REVEAL you to ‘sneak away in stealth’. Or are you going to tootle pip run over behind something, in full view, and drop a trap to stealth up… at which point your enemy just keeps running to the last point they saw you and instantly reveals you. That’s really intelligent is it not (seriously Anet – if I put an apostrophed version of the is it not – it’s censored? Crikey).

That’s why I ask if you either read what you post or think.

Why on earth would I take a trap that’ll reveal me as a defensive mechanism. You’re scraping the bottom of the barrel for “explanations” as to how it can still be used. Why – to gain stealth… when i’ve got to get somewhere to use it where it won’t get triggered? If I manage that I don’t need fricken stealth!

Now to why I don’t think you actually think when posting. Why the very heck would I take it when I could just take a shadow step trap and activate it to teleport out of the area.

Your suggestions are either substantially flawed or substantially bettered by what thieves already have.

Chips.7968:

Right – read your posts again kitten . You claim thieves should “run away to drop traps away from anyone in order to stay in stealth”.

Then when I point out that you’re now saying thieves should use an offensive weapon only to ‘stay in stealth’ which is fricken dumb as they’ve far better alternatives which won’t risk revealing them.

Right, please show me where I said that the only way you should use traps is defensively. I pointed out you still can use them defensively as long as you aren’t a complete idiot and think about where you are placing them. You might have a problem with that, most won’t.

This in no way means you can’t still use them offensively, it just means there is some risk in using them. You use them when you want the cc instead of rotating through them to keep up perma stealth.

Chips.7968:

Now you’re saying “But you don’t drop shadow refuge infront of your enemy” – so how are you going to “run away somewhere to drop a trap where it won’t be triggered”. Are you going to MAGIC your way? Or are you going to drop one of those traps that’ll fricken REVEAL you to ‘sneak away in stealth’. Or are you going to tootle pip run over behind something, in full view, and drop a trap to stealth up… at which point your enemy just keeps running to the last point they saw you and instantly reveals you. That’s really intelligent is it not (seriously Anet – if I put an apostrophed version of the is it not – it’s censored? Crikey).

“MAGIC your way”….. Have you ever actually played a thief? Thieves have the best mobility in game and the easiest access to stealth. Most people will have no problem disengaging to a safe distance using their weapon skills if they are in trouble. At that point a trapper thief can either use the stealth and super speed to escape, or maintain stealth while letting health and initiative regen.

Simple fix: Make Thieves traps deal small direct damage like they used to so they get revealed. It’s not a huge nerf it makes them perfectly balanced.

Thieves can still take SR which most do anyway and still have tons of stealth. Being perma stealth and able to kill players while never coming out? That’s just broken, its not skillful, its not balanced.

Anyone QQing about this build needs to L2P. This build is the epitome of a one trick pony. Sure, perma stealth isn’t fun to fight, but it’s not hard either. Just MOVE. Caltrops is a midsize AOE, just get out of it. Use a condi cleanse and move. Ghost Teef can’t chase, it is a one shot condi bomb that relies on RNG to get lots of immob to make you stand in caltrops. If you don’t bring -duration food, and condi cleanse, then you deserve to die. This is how WvW has been for years.

Xiohunter.2561:

Anyone QQing about this build needs to L2P. This build is the epitome of a one trick pony. Sure, perma stealth isn’t fun to fight, but it’s not hard either. Just MOVE. Caltrops is a midsize AOE, just get out of it. Use a condi cleanse and move. Ghost Teef can’t chase, it is a one shot condi bomb that relies on RNG to get lots of immob to make you stand in caltrops. If you don’t bring -duration food, and condi cleanse, then you deserve to die. This is how WvW has been for years.

The original poster of this thread said the issue was one of /sigh, not L2P. Put down a stealth trap. /sigh

Xiohunter.2561:

Anyone QQing about this build needs to L2P. This build is the epitome of a one trick pony. Sure, perma stealth isn’t fun to fight, but it’s not hard either. Just MOVE. Caltrops is a midsize AOE, just get out of it. Use a condi cleanse and move. Ghost Teef can’t chase, it is a one shot condi bomb that relies on RNG to get lots of immob to make you stand in caltrops. If you don’t bring -duration food, and condi cleanse, then you deserve to die. This is how WvW has been for years.

I love how all the “solutions” amount to “go away” (which means possibly conceding the objective) or “always have stealth traps and enough supplies”. If L2P means either of these, I’m sorry but that isn’t acceptable and the complaint is definitely legit.