Guild Wars 2

Broken forum.

Forestgreen.7981:

BrickFurious.7169:

Forestgreen.7981:

Did I mention that dodge rolling through wells will also negate 1 stack of venom since it’s a MISS. Misses on venoms also trigger it. But screw that, you haven’t bothered to rebut any of the points to why its not OP. It’s not the venom share that is the problem it’s people with kitten poor positioning standing on wells. Send your complaints to zerker glass cannon necros running sigil fire/air + wells.

Wells hit from 900 range, that’s not a positioning issue. And the problem is that if you get hit by an immobilization venom well, you’ll stay stuck there because it pulses (i.e., unless you can perfectly anticipate when and where the well will be placed and dodge roll through, you can’t dodge the subsequent pulses).

Also I gave a long explanation above for why immobilization venom wells are OP and I’m still waiting for a rebuttal, hint hint.

Dude I’m in T1 server. There isn’t anything I’ve haven’t seen before. I already gave a rebuttal twice, you’re super OP venom wells only hits 2 ppl out of 5 ONCE is a 2s immolobize that can easily be cleared too op? Also its’ a aoe ground target almost everyone spams dodge rolls and will inevitably trigger the immolobizing effect rendering it useless. You literally do not know how venoms from thieves work at all. Go to PvP with 7 ppl and drop your amazing super OP wells on 5 people moving through it and watch it only hit 2 (3 if traited) people ONCE. If you think “pulsing” means anything it just means your damage ticks you don’t magically immobolize 10 people yourself.
I’m seriously questioning whether or not you actually understand any of this, also what server are you on and tier because I can’t tell you how many of these low tier servers come thinking they’re top shots get just wreckted in T1 since most of the folks with half a brain come to T1 for more fights.

If you’re still lost enjoy this video as it demonstrate exactly how it feels talking to you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

What’dya know, I looked up the wiki on venoms and sure enough, you’re right, I was wrong about the mechanic (also I missed your earlier post stating that, apologies):

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Venom

I indeed thought (as the tooltip for the venoms says, and based off anecdotal accounts from others) that the venoms were applied per attack (aka per pulse of an aoe), when instead they’re applied per enemy hit. I feel like that tooltip could use some clarification…I know I’m not the only one that finds that wording confusing.

Btw though, holy condescension batman. I was wrong, but I’ve spent my fair share of time playing for T1 servers too and clearly that didn’t matter, no need to get on a high horse. This game and its mechanics can be really complicated, might I suggest a tad more patience when you’re trying to correct someone about an issue like this?

Atherakhia.4086:

Immob is the root of the problem. That’s where the ‘fix’ needs to be aimed.

I agree with this. Its the stacking and pulsing immob that is the root of this problem, absolutely. Sharing venom with necro wells is, IMO, working fine. But the immob is crap and there is just not enough ways out of it. You can get out of one, but when you get stacks and stacks pulsing, you are screwed.

Just make it so immob has dimishing returns, problem fixed without fully nerfing.

well, legit tactic is legit. if you can’t or refuse to bring condi clear that’s your group problem, not the game or the skills.

azizul.8469:

well, legit tactic is legit. if you can’t or refuse to bring condi clear that’s your group problem, not the game or the skills.

Have you actually fought against a coordinated venom bomb?

Deli.1302:

azizul.8469:

well, legit tactic is legit. if you can’t or refuse to bring condi clear that’s your group problem, not the game or the skills.

Have you actually fought against a coordinated venom bomb?

have you ever thought of doing the same… ?

Kitiara.2706:

Atherakhia.4086:

Immob is the root of the problem. That’s where the ‘fix’ needs to be aimed.

I agree with this. Its the stacking and pulsing immob that is the root of this problem, absolutely. Sharing venom with necro wells is, IMO, working fine. But the immob is crap and there is just not enough ways out of it. You can get out of one, but when you get stacks and stacks pulsing, you are screwed.

Just make it so immob has dimishing returns, problem fixed without fully nerfing.

That was pretty much what I was going to post…Immob is probably the big problem here. Diminishing returns isn’t a bad idea for immob. I think the venom wells are being used as intended. The hammer train shouldn’t be hardly affected by the venomwells, if at all…Right? If so, then a good ranged dps should be hard to catch with them. This 100% sounds like a l2p issue. I don’t mean that in an elitist way. That’s how most with experience see it. Practice countering, and you’ll make the other player waste CD’s and even their whole build if played right. It’s like that with a lot of the builds out there being used for wvw/pvp.

azizul.8469:

Deli.1302:

azizul.8469:

well, legit tactic is legit. if you can’t or refuse to bring condi clear that’s your group problem, not the game or the skills.

Have you actually fought against a coordinated venom bomb?

have you ever thought of doing the same… ?

I actually have. What about you?

the problem is the stab changes gave a lot of space to pirate style of fights and cc builds became OP and very hard to counter .

p.s. immob , chill and basilisk from 5 enemies needs 45 stacks of stability to not affected

Makes me wonder. If thief shares venom with guardian and guardian places symbol (big + longer-lasting) wouldn’t that be the same “problem”? As in, doesn’t have to be wells, could be symbols?

what i do not seem to grasp from this thread, that does not seem to be mentioned is this;

at best you have one or two thieves with the enemy, if they are fully venomshare with extra venom applications and whatnot, that will equate to 1-2x(5×3), so in short 15-30 applications, however wells are locked at 3-5 people, so they will only catch these, they will lock them and keep killing THESE players (unless some other player manages to get closer to the centre of the wells then the ones already caught.
However, i ran trap ranger + VSthief for some time. The way Venoms work, unless changed, is that they apply 1x venom PR pulse PR skill.

So if necro dumps 2 wells, then that will burn all their venom stacks in 1.5 seconds upon initializing.

meaning unless the stars align, you will get MAX 5 people caught, realistically.

Granted every organized and “skilled” party out there runs a guard with condi cleanse, i do not see why there should not be viable, effective counterplay through STANDARD MEANS OF COUNTERING CONDITIONS.

My conclusion, without making claims that venomwells ARE or ARE NOT OP, is that either most of you who complain are NOT running in a nearly as skilled group as you think, OR that you simply are not sticking together enough.

There are some data missing. Mainly; why do you keep getting caught, and why have you not presented evidence of trying to counter this sort of play with the tools you have avaliable

Prysin.8542:

what i do not seem to grasp from this thread, that does not seem to be mentioned is this;

at best you have one or two thieves with the enemy, if they are fully venomshare with extra venom applications and whatnot, that will equate to 1-2x(5×3), so in short 15-30 applications, however wells are locked at 3-5 people, so they will only catch these, they will lock them and keep killing THESE players (unless some other player manages to get closer to the centre of the wells then the ones already caught.
However, i ran trap ranger + VSthief for some time. The way Venoms work, unless changed, is that they apply 1x venom PR pulse PR skill.

So if necro dumps 2 wells, then that will burn all their venom stacks in 1.5 seconds upon initializing.

meaning unless the stars align, you will get MAX 5 people caught, realistically.

Granted every organized and “skilled” party out there runs a guard with condi cleanse, i do not see why there should not be viable, effective counterplay through STANDARD MEANS OF COUNTERING CONDITIONS.

My conclusion, without making claims that venomwells ARE or ARE NOT OP, is that either most of you who complain are NOT running in a nearly as skilled group as you think, OR that you simply are not sticking together enough.

There are some data missing. Mainly; why do you keep getting caught, and why have you not presented evidence of trying to counter this sort of play with the tools you have avaliable

in general, it can be countered. It will take 2 purging flames and 2 shout warriors. possibly a water 5 from staff ele to ensure everyone gets out safe. its much more difficult to counter than it is to apply. frontline doesnt usually have too much trouble with it. Necros often get caught though. Necros are going to be able to use unholy sanctuary now. They also get 3s protection when they leave deathshroud. Will that be enough? doubt it.

Prysin.8542:

….

There are some data missing. Mainly; why do you keep getting caught, and why have you not presented evidence of trying to counter this sort of play with the tools you have avaliable

nothing is missing . venom shares counter are reflection skills (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect) , but this will create the effect of ping pong the cc conditions in fights

Reborn.2934:

Prysin.8542:

….

There are some data missing. Mainly; why do you keep getting caught, and why have you not presented evidence of trying to counter this sort of play with the tools you have avaliable

nothing is missing . venom shares counter are reflection skills (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect) , but this will create the effect of ping pong the cc conditions in fights

you realize wells are not a projectile?

FrownyClown.8402:

Reborn.2934:

Prysin.8542:

….

There are some data missing. Mainly; why do you keep getting caught, and why have you not presented evidence of trying to counter this sort of play with the tools you have avaliable

nothing is missing . venom shares counter are reflection skills (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect) , but this will create the effect of ping pong the cc conditions in fights

you realize wells are not a projectile?

if wiki is correct the projectile effects from finishers are projectiles as well ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Projectile_finisher ) but in this page only chill is projectile and not the immobilize or the stone from basilisk .

maybe the wiki is wrong and the projectile finishers are more , including immobilize and stone from basilisk .

btw ,we tested and only wall of reflection and feedback help us against teams with venom shares

p.s. all wells are dark field : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_field

I thought of this thread and its lack of fact based complaints last night when I was commanding and got venom well bombed. I used rocket boots and negated every single bit of it.

Weren’t there some posters declaring it uncounterable? My first thought is what kind of player pushes toward a large force and uses no dodges, blocks, reflects, or condition negating skills when they know soft and hard CCs are coming. That is either a sign of bad leadership or a force of bad players, or perhaps both, in my opinion.

FrownyClown.8402:

Prysin.8542:

what i do not seem to grasp from this thread, that does not seem to be mentioned is this;

at best you have one or two thieves with the enemy, if they are fully venomshare with extra venom applications and whatnot, that will equate to 1-2x(5×3), so in short 15-30 applications, however wells are locked at 3-5 people, so they will only catch these, they will lock them and keep killing THESE players (unless some other player manages to get closer to the centre of the wells then the ones already caught.
However, i ran trap ranger + VSthief for some time. The way Venoms work, unless changed, is that they apply 1x venom PR pulse PR skill.

So if necro dumps 2 wells, then that will burn all their venom stacks in 1.5 seconds upon initializing.

meaning unless the stars align, you will get MAX 5 people caught, realistically.

Granted every organized and “skilled” party out there runs a guard with condi cleanse, i do not see why there should not be viable, effective counterplay through STANDARD MEANS OF COUNTERING CONDITIONS.

My conclusion, without making claims that venomwells ARE or ARE NOT OP, is that either most of you who complain are NOT running in a nearly as skilled group as you think, OR that you simply are not sticking together enough.

There are some data missing. Mainly; why do you keep getting caught, and why have you not presented evidence of trying to counter this sort of play with the tools you have avaliable

in general, it can be countered. It will take 2 purging flames and 2 shout warriors. possibly a water 5 from staff ele to ensure everyone gets out safe. its much more difficult to counter than it is to apply. frontline doesnt usually have too much trouble with it. Necros often get caught though. Necros are going to be able to use unholy sanctuary now. They also get 3s protection when they leave deathshroud. Will that be enough? doubt it.

Just to add to this on a more meta level. If one group can force another to blow its condi-cleanses early in a fight the group without condi-cleanse will be at a significant disadvantage.

coglin.1867:

I thought of this thread and its lack of fact based complaints last night when I was commanding and got venom well bombed. I used rocket boots and negated every single bit of it.

Weren’t there some posters declaring it uncounterable? My first thought is what kind of player pushes toward a large force and uses no dodges, blocks, reflects, or condition negating skills when they know soft and hard CCs are coming. That is either a sign of bad leadership or a force of bad players, or perhaps both, in my opinion.

Engineers also happen to be the best profession at dealing with immobilized:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilized

Look at the “skills that removed immobilized” section, engi skills make up nearly half of them. Plus engi’s have access to leg mods and cloaking device which are also immob counters. So unless the counter you’re suggesting is “roll an engi”, why are you talking about rocket boots? Most professions do not have easy on-demand access to immob-specific condi clear.

As for blocking/reflecting, wells are unblockable and un-reflectable. And you can only dodge through a well that’s already on the ground before you get there; if it gets dropped on top of you you’re gonna get hit by it. And once you’re immobilized, you can’t dodge.

Which leaves general condi clear as the only reliable counter, and if you have other conditions on you it’s not guaranteed you’ll be able to remove the immobilize. If the enemy team has a lot of necros spamming immobilizing venom wells, you have to understand how it can be extraordinarily hard for professions other than engi to counter them.

BrickFurious.7169:

Engineers also happen to be the best profession at dealing with immobilized:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilized

Look at the “skills that removed immobilized” section, engi skills make up nearly half of them. Plus engi’s have access to leg mods and cloaking device which are also immob counters. So unless the counter you’re suggesting is “roll an engi”, why are you talking about rocket boots? Most professions do not have easy on-demand access to immob-specific condi clear.

As for blocking/reflecting, wells are unblockable and un-reflectable. And you can only dodge through a well that’s already on the ground before you get there; if it gets dropped on top of you you’re gonna get hit by it. And once you’re immobilized, you can’t dodge.

Which leaves general condi clear as the only reliable counter, and if you have other conditions on you it’s not guaranteed you’ll be able to remove the immobilize. If the enemy team has a lot of necros spamming immobilizing venom wells, you have to understand how it can be extraordinarily hard for professions other than engi to counter them.

+1, nicely said.

BrickFurious also made 4 post arguing about the venom + wells combination before he even understood how it functions.

BrickFurious.7169:

What’dya know, I looked up the wiki on venoms and sure enough, you’re right, I was wrong about the mechanic

So I wouldn’t be so quick to +1 his post, after proving such a bias, that he would speak on it when he doesn’t understand it.

For example he claimed:

BrickFurious.7169:

There are only two skills in the game that remove immobilize in an aoe: Warrior’s charge and Ele’s Windborne Speed.

Yet it is a fact that there are well over two dozen that remove immobilize in an AoE.

Warriors can utilize one single trait that gives them more then 10 skills to break immobilize. So I do not see how 3 that engineers have comes near half. I would like to see how you worked the math in this case.

As well, there are other movement skills not listed on the link to that wiki page that break immobilize as well as moving players out of the hot zone. I might be in everyone’s interest if we based our discussion on experience instead of pure theory based on outdated information stock piled by random players.

I do a great deal of wiki maintenance, personally. Mainly focusing on the engineer and Mesmer information. On a weekly basis I have to correct inaccurate information added or changed from random users, so I know first hand how quickly the wiki can build inaccuracies. So while I am on this side tangent, I would like all of those who read this, to take that under advisement when making a wiki change, as anyone can do it, with unrestricted access. As well, I invite other informed players, to step up and help the very few of who update inaccuracies. Help is always welcome.

As a dropper of venom wells, here’s my perception:

1. It relies on lots of player coordination to work. Any time lots of players coordinate anything expect it to hurt.

2. It is a first order optimal metastrategy. The counterplay to it is a second order optimal metastrategy. An example of this is baiting a push to make the enemy waste the bomb.

3. It is extremely easy to knock the necromancers out of position. If I do not have position I have nothing.

4. I actually agree pirate ship meta is boring. Hurry up xpac.

coglin.1867:

BrickFurious also made 4 post arguing about the venom + wells combination before he even understood how it functions.

So I wouldn’t be so quick to +1 his post, after proving such a bias, that he would speak on it when he doesn’t understand it.

Let me clarify what I misunderstood, since that may not be readily apparent from my posts. I misunderstood how many enemies can be affected by each venom application; I assumed based on the tooltip that each stack could apply to multiple enemies, however as Forestgreen pointed out, each stack of a venom can actually only apply to one enemy. Thus, it’s still possible for a venom well to pulse immobilize, but only if the well hits a single enemy, not if it hits multiple. Which means that venom wells are less powerful than I thought, though still very powerful. Many of the criticisms of venom wells that I put forward are still applicable (namely the reliance on general condi clear as the main counter to them).

Tell me Coglin, does my initial misunderstanding (which I humbly admitted) of a particular mechanic of venoms now invalidate my opinion on this topic?

coglin.1867:

For example he claimed:

BrickFurious.7169:

There are only two skills in the game that remove immobilize in an aoe: Warrior’s charge and Ele’s Windborne Speed.

Yet it is a fact that there are well over two dozen that remove immobilize in an AoE.

I’m gonna go ahead and link this wiki page again:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilized

If you scroll down to the section “skills that remove immobilized”, there are only two listed that remove immobilized in an AoE, aka, remove it from yourself and others near you: Charge on Warrior warhorn, and Windborne Speed on Ele staff (air). I wasn’t talking about general condition clearing skills here, I was talking about skills that specifically remove immobilized. Was that not clear?

coglin.1867:

Warriors can utilize one single trait that gives them more then 10 skills to break immobilize. So I do not see how 3 that engineers have comes near half. I would like to see how you worked the math in this case.

Again referring to that wiki on immobilized, there are 8 skills listed that remove it. Engineers have 3 of them. 3/8 = nearly half.

If you want to count the warrior trait that allows movement skills to remove immobilized, then you can’t count all 10 skills it affects because it’s impossible for a warrior to equip all of them at the same time (most of them are on weapons). That said, I agree that warriors are also good at removing immobilized…what exactly are you arguing with me about here?

coglin.1867:

As well, there are other movement skills not listed on the link to that wiki page that break immobilize as well as moving players out of the hot zone.

Like what?

Deli.1302:

azizul.8469:

Deli.1302:

azizul.8469:

well, legit tactic is legit. if you can’t or refuse to bring condi clear that’s your group problem, not the game or the skills.

Have you actually fought against a coordinated venom bomb?

have you ever thought of doing the same… ?

I actually have. What about you?

yup, done that too. so what’s the problem ?

BrickFurious.7169:

Engineers also happen to be the best profession at dealing with immobilized:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilized

Look at the “skills that removed immobilized” section, engi skills make up nearly half of them. Plus engi’s have access to leg mods and cloaking device which are also immob counters. So unless the counter you’re suggesting is “roll an engi”, why are you talking about rocket boots? Most professions do not have easy on-demand access to immob-specific condi clear.

As for blocking/reflecting, wells are unblockable and un-reflectable. And you can only dodge through a well that’s already on the ground before you get there; if it gets dropped on top of you you’re gonna get hit by it. And once you’re immobilized, you can’t dodge.

Which leaves general condi clear as the only reliable counter, and if you have other conditions on you it’s not guaranteed you’ll be able to remove the immobilize. If the enemy team has a lot of necros spamming immobilizing venom wells, you have to understand how it can be extraordinarily hard for professions other than engi to counter them.

This is totally misleading. I have played both engineer and warrior more than any other profession.

Warrior is far better equipped to deal with immobilize. Here are the main reasons:

Charge (warhorn #4), gives swiftness, removes crippled, immobilize and chilled from yourself and 9 allies at 1200 range, 12/15 s cooldown. This alone is ridiculously strong skill and before the invention venom wells made zergs almost immune to immobilize, chill and crippled. Charge also converts one condition into boon (useful).

Mobile strikes, any mobility skill removes immobilize. Just equip GS and/or sword and you will be fine.

Dogged March, Incoming movement-impeding conditions have their durations reduced by 33%. Gain regeneration when you are affected by one of these conditions. This is a mere adept level trait, compared with leg mods, which is a weaker trait (no regeneration) and master level (you need to give up a master trait for that).

Warrior has also access to far more condition removal: shouts (especially together with trooper runes), signet of stamina, cleansing ire.

Rocket boots doesn’t make you invulnerable to any condition. You can still be hit immobilize after 1st immobilize cleanse. Rocket boots has bugged on me countless times sometimes even sending me 180 degrees wrong direction, which can often mean certain death. When I am hit with immobilize, I much rather play on my warrior than engi (which uses rocket boots, but that ain’t alone enough).

We should be talking about valid meta builds. You cannot really compare professions just looking at spreadsheets. Engineers have never been in the WvWvW meta and there are good reasons for that.

Deniara Devious.3948:

BrickFurious.7169:

Engineers also happen to be the best profession at dealing with immobilized:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilized

Look at the “skills that removed immobilized” section, engi skills make up nearly half of them. Plus engi’s have access to leg mods and cloaking device which are also immob counters. So unless the counter you’re suggesting is “roll an engi”, why are you talking about rocket boots? Most professions do not have easy on-demand access to immob-specific condi clear.

As for blocking/reflecting, wells are unblockable and un-reflectable. And you can only dodge through a well that’s already on the ground before you get there; if it gets dropped on top of you you’re gonna get hit by it. And once you’re immobilized, you can’t dodge.

Which leaves general condi clear as the only reliable counter, and if you have other conditions on you it’s not guaranteed you’ll be able to remove the immobilize. If the enemy team has a lot of necros spamming immobilizing venom wells, you have to understand how it can be extraordinarily hard for professions other than engi to counter them.

This is totally misleading. I have played both engineer and warrior more than any other profession.

Warrior is far better equipped to deal with immobilize. Here are the main reasons:

Charge (warhorn #4), gives swiftness, removes crippled, immobilize and chilled from yourself and 9 allies at 1200 range, 12/15 s cooldown. This alone is ridiculously strong skill and before the invention venom wells made zergs almost immune to immobilize, chill and crippled. Charge also converts one condition into boon (useful).

Mobile strikes, any mobility skill removes immobilize. Just equip GS and/or sword and you will be fine.

Dogged March, Incoming movement-impeding conditions have their durations reduced by 33%. Gain regeneration when you are affected by one of these conditions. This is a mere adept level trait, compared with leg mods, which is a weaker trait (no regeneration) and master level (you need to give up a master trait for that).

Warrior has also access to far more condition removal: shouts (especially together with trooper runes), signet of stamina, cleansing ire.

Rocket boots doesn’t make you invulnerable to any condition. You can still be hit immobilize after 1st immobilize cleanse. Rocket boots has bugged on me countless times sometimes even sending me 180 degrees wrong direction, which can often mean certain death. When I am hit with immobilize, I much rather play on my warrior than engi (which uses rocket boots, but that ain’t alone enough).

We should be talking about valid meta builds. You cannot really compare professions just looking at spreadsheets. Engineers have never been in the WvWvW meta and there are good reasons for that.

I can’t believe I’m still having to say this: I agree with you, warriors are also very good at removing immobilized. I said “most professions” do not have easy on-demand access to immob-specific condi clear, not “every profession except engis”. Coglin referenced an engi skill that removes immobilized (rocket boots), that’s why I brought up engis, because (along with warriors) they are far more adept at dealing with immobilized than other professions, and thus they are not representative of the struggles most classes encounter with immobilizing venom wells in WvW.

I didn’t intend my post to spawn a debate about which is better at handling immobilized, warriors or engis, I just wanted to point out that most classes are not great at handling it. Which is much more in line with the actual thread topic. Is that more clear?

It’s a well known tactic, so just use it yourself in your raids.

Given that there is easy, reliable counter to this tactic. Not to mention it requires at bare minimum two players on two different professions to pull it off, while it takes only one player to negate it. I still fail to see the hardships related to this.

Players should look for counters, prior to accusing or labeling something as op.

Venomshare + Epidemic from necro with +condi food = someone is gonna be mad :P

Atoss.1056:

Venomshare + Epidemic from necro with +condi food = someone is gonna be mad :P

Insert condiclass here + necro with epidemic and +condi food is going to make anyone mad.

Venoms is one thing. Try trap ranger with 2x Sharpening Stone, krait runes and Sharpened Edges + epi…. end result – Burning, 12-15x bleeding, immob, cripple, poison and torment all in less then 1 seconds. Just for good measure, you can reapply burning, poison, cripple and another 10 stacks of bleeding within the time it takes for epidemic’s cooldown to reset.

Venoms is a niche thing. They are underrated by most. Iv’e said it probably 20 times or more in this WvW forums. Venomshare is strong. Finally people seem to realize it.

Ok those saying venom wells apply “pulsing immob” arent being accurate. It’s per enemy hit (even if they dodge) so first well you drop will generally use all your venom ticks up as soon as it does damage (unless you manage to hit only 2 people). The other party memebers will use up the ticks immediately with their first aoe attack as well, and not necessarily on the same targets. That being said if you know you’re going up against venoms and guardians use purging flames properly and warriors use warhorn 4 properly (not too early) then they shouldnt be that big of a problem.

Even so it being based on the venom thief’s condi duration means that each party will be putting out a potential of 60 seconds of immob divided by how many targets they hit (immob cant stack more than 3 times so maximum of 12 seconds per target if they dont run foods and such). 12 seconds of immob on an enemy is pretty op, but only if they play poorly by burning cleanses early and such.

Once expansion hits and revenants can share resistance with party I think you will find venoms wells will be pretty ineffective. It will be very difficult to actually catch someone in the bomb as they can just walk out since they will have stab and soft cc wont work.

THe venom thief in general will be getting a slight nerf since the extra venom tick trait wont be around (I think) so only 2 ticks of immob per party and 1 stab strip with basilisk venom. That being said thief will be able to run venoms while being a strong ganker again (rather than a support heavy role that venom thieves play now). They will get to go full deadly arts, full critical strikes, and full shadow arts (with venomous aura). So maybe then we will see venoms used for gank squad rather than wells, dunno (even more problematic to play against than venom wells imo).

Still the problem would be venoms using up utility slots, unless you just take Devourer and Basilisk venom. I’m not sure what venoms these thieves usually run with, but I don’t really the role of venomshare thief is really enjoyable to play atm.

The thing about venoms that messes up most ppl is long immobilize duration. If you manage to cover it with enough ‘filler’ condis and the target is not prepared/has not equipped certain skills/utilitys to counter it, he is at least gonna go down state… If you can’t clean immob – you can’t dodge aka you take everything on your face. Since venoms come from thief the chance the whole burst will come from stealth is high enough that the target won’t be expecting it and no way to dodge…

lol everyone in t3 is running this now. i really hope one of the specilizations provides group resistance boon.

The problem is it requires 0 skill to pull off a venombomb with 0 risk involved.

Any group can pick up venombombs and suddenly their bombs are massively strong.

Vermillion.4061:

The problem is it requires 0 skill to pull off a venombomb with 0 risk involved.

Any group can pick up venombombs and suddenly their bombs are massively strong.

i need to correct you here.
But first i will have to announce a tiny disclaimer.

I do not play as thief, nor as necromancer. Nor do i play in groups or guilds that heavily utilizes this tactic. I play as solo or group roamer, and we got other things to do then drag along slow moving necros

That being said.
Almost EVERY tactic in WvW requires ZERO skill and ZERO effort, and close to ZERO risk. The whole meta is built around this principle of ZERO INPUT, MAX OUTPUT. So naturally this will be a popular tactic.
However it DOES carry “risk”. Thing is, no matter how much you try to build a tanky thief, you CAN NOT DO IT. Especially so in a group or crowd enviroment. This is primarily due to the design of the class. They are high damage, low defense. Their tools to mitigate damage is all about AVOIDING IT. Unfortunately for a thief, trying to avoid a whole zerg while staying close enough to actually help the ones in the fight is hard. Very hard. You cannot get CCd as a thief, especially Venomshare. Iv’e tried to play venomshare in the past, things have not changed much on the thiefs side, so my experience, while dated, still is valid.
Venoms take up so much utility, i “say so much” and you may think “it’s only 1 slot + elite”. However for a thief, one utility slot is big. Their main tools of escape and attack is tied directly to utilities, so using a slot for something with a medium to long cooldown is HUGE.
Venoms also have a long downtime, so inbetween venoms you either gotta hide, or try stay afloat.

Then there is the elephant in the room. Thieves want to tag things too, they want loot. And sharing venoms that does not damage, does not give you “automatic loot”. So that means they gotta dart around the battlefield with a class that is about as tanky as raw spaghetti, trying to spam cluster bombs and poison fields. Without dieing.
Then every 45 to 36 seconds, they must return to the slow moving necromancers that usually stay close to the fray due to their limited range but good tankyness with DS.

Now, a “outro” disclaimer for those who are still reading my post.
I play, primarily, banner regen support LB + sword shield warrior for zerging (tankyness + loot ftw), or power regen ranger for defending, or i play Survival condi bunker ranger for roaming.
That is all. I have a level 80 guard, necro, mesmer, engi, thief and ele. They are all good at different tasks.

Prysin.8542:

I play, primarily, banner regen support LB + sword shield warrior for zerging (tankyness + loot ftw), or power regen ranger for defending, or i play Survival condi bunker ranger for roaming.

It would be nice if everyone would have such sort of outro as intro so it’s easier to scan through the posts. These… specs aren’t exactly what I would call very… useful and I don’t exactly see how you have the experience to make such statements such as:

Almost EVERY tactic in WvW requires ZERO skill and ZERO effort, and close to ZERO risk. The whole meta is built around this principle of ZERO INPUT, MAX OUTPUT. So naturally this will be a popular tactic.

BlackDevil.9268:

Prysin.8542:

I play, primarily, banner regen support LB + sword shield warrior for zerging (tankyness + loot ftw), or power regen ranger for defending, or i play Survival condi bunker ranger for roaming.

It would be nice if everyone would have such sort of outro as intro so it’s easier to scan through the posts. These… specs aren’t exactly what I would call very… useful and I don’t exactly see how you have the experience to make such statements such as:

Almost EVERY tactic in WvW requires ZERO skill and ZERO effort, and close to ZERO risk. The whole meta is built around this principle of ZERO INPUT, MAX OUTPUT. So naturally this will be a popular tactic.

Well you see, i played this game, and in particular WvW, since december 2012, which is. oh, 2.5 years by now, or close to it.
Ive been part of dead serious WvW guilds on both EU and NA servers, across several tiers in both regions. In sheer time spent, i accumulated more experience then most.
That being said, what do you play good sir? Some build copied from Metabattles? or some build made up by your guild leadership? Great for you, great on you finding the time to play in a guild.
I do not have the time to play in a guild, i work in construction and during projects we can go from working normal 8 hour days to working 12-15 hours FOR WEEKS OR EVEN MONTHS in worst case. No guilds that is serious about WvW will bother with someone who cannot show up and be a “regular”. I understand that, and i respect that. My working life does not synergize well with Guildwars2. This is how it is.
However that does not change the fact that when i play, i gotta perform THE MOST for my team, by making sure i do THE MOST i can ALONE. I cannot count on friends or allies bringing certain things, i gotta do it all and it is not hard to do so.

As for roaming, condition specs are the most annoying you can fight, power specs are the most threatening due to their burst, please go find me a class with more condition cleanses, more pressure, mobility and tankyness IN ADDITION to utility then survival ranger.
As the game currently stands, you will find NONE. Guardian, Cele DD Ele and Warrior can get the cleansing, but then they sacrifice some of their pressure or sustain, or in guardians case, they become one shot wonders having to balance their meditations.
Thieves, if opting to have good cleansing, will have to go SR, thus power for the most part. This makes them predictable. Mesmers and engineers lose out on utility if trying to cleanse. Necromancers are THE ONLY class alongside Rangers themselves, able to actually overpower a Survival ranger in terms of condi applications.
Survival rangers can stack bleeds faster then any other class bar a thief burning all its initiative on every “init recharge”.
It can apply a pulsing fire field so huge it can cover a camp. It has poison uptime that is seriously impressive, it has CC, lots of CC. It has evasion, lots of evasion. It has clunky mobility with sword.

It has all this, in ONE SINGLE BUILD. For solo roaming, it is a package that only a engineer can come close to matching, but i am certainly not good enough with engineer to solo roam.

So you see, while i do not play meta setups, it is not because their lack of efficiency in general, it is because they do not support and attack very well in a “solo effort” scenario.

While the warrior build is certainly under review all the time (i swap shield for WH and AOE cleanses whenever possible), the sniper ranger only need a commander to point at who he wants dead, and i will bring the target down. I Do not want people to rush over and ress my paper ranger if i go down. My paper ranger is made of paper for a reason, it is there to shine bright for as long as i can keep it alive, then i will go down, and i will take down as many people as i can while going down. (That and, well…. a good paper ranger should run circle of life. Cause when i go down, i drop a 15 second waterfield for my allies to use. My ranger does not go down without a final word)

It’s been said many times so far there are many counters to venom wells. I get angry at people who kitten about them. Like many others have said, there are many other attacks that are just as bad. Blah, blah, blah, etc.

One of the things that amazes me: The other day I’m running with a commander who kittenes a ton about this. I was in his party, and asked if the other guardians/warriors run Runes of the Tooper (previously Soldier), which condi clear on shout. My guardian runs 3 shouts, and I swap to Pure of Voice when fighting larger groups so I cleanse 2 condis with each shout.

I was rebuked and laughed at stating that is an old meta (man, i hate that term), and the new meta is Runes of Hoelbrak. ??? Seriously? So, you want to have more dps and offer nothing to the group as a frontline. Then I never want to hear you kitten again about being chilled and immobilized.

Change your builds, change your gear, change your group comp to deal with your enemy.

Spurnshadow.3678:

It’s been said many times so far there are many counters to venom wells. I get angry at people who kitten about them. Like many others have said, there are many other attacks that are just as bad. Blah, blah, blah, etc.

One of the things that amazes me: The other day I’m running with a commander who kittenes a ton about this. I was in his party, and asked if the other guardians/warriors run Runes of the Tooper (previously Soldier), which condi clear on shout. My guardian runs 3 shouts, and I swap to Pure of Voice when fighting larger groups so I cleanse 2 condis with each shout.

I was rebuked and laughed at stating that is an old meta (man, i hate that term), and the new meta is Runes of Hoelbrak. ??? Seriously? So, you want to have more dps and offer nothing to the group as a frontline. Then I never want to hear you kitten again about being chilled and immobilized.

Change your builds, change your gear, change your group comp to deal with your enemy.

Hoelbrak is to get the -60% condi duration and you have purging flames in an emergency to make it -93% along with the might duration giving the guards 100% (24) might uptime from empowers.

Hoelbrak gives -20% condi duration. You must be saying when combined with food. It doesn’t give you more stacks of might when empowering, just duration, and might is the first boon stripped. The point is Hoelbrak is for dps front line meta. However, if you are getting chilled and immobilized all the time, maybe you should change things up. Sacrifice getting some might stacks in combat for mobility and survivability through trooper runes.

And I don’t advocate every guardian run this. I find having a mix of shout and concecration for purging flames, and other consecrations a good mix. I’ve had many people come back at me saying “Trooper Runes are dumb,” “I’d never run trooper runes,” “What are Trooper Runes?” If everyone in frontline is running dps then kitten about being chilled and imob all the time.

I just hate people who think everyone should run one thing when a variety is better and usually help the group more. It really boils down to group comp. And if you’re running with a lot of pugs, they usually need more support as pugs generally run selfish, higher-dps builds.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Hoelbrak gives -20% condi duration. You must be saying when combined with food. It doesn’t give you more stacks of might when empowering, just duration, and might is the first boon stripped. The point is Hoelbrak is for dps front line meta. However, if you are getting chilled and immobilized all the time, maybe you should change things up. Sacrifice getting some might stacks in combat for mobility and survivability through trooper runes.

And I don’t advocate every guardian run this. I find having a mix of shout and concecration for purging flames, and other consecrations a good mix. I’ve had many people come back at me saying “Trooper Runes are dumb,” “I’d never run trooper runes,” “What are Trooper Runes?” If everyone in frontline is running dps then kitten about being chilled and imob all the time.

I just hate people who think everyone should run one thing when a variety is better and usually help the group more. It really boils down to group comp. And if you’re running with a lot of pugs, they usually need more support as pugs generally run selfish, higher-dps builds.

Ugh where did I say hoelbrak gives you more stacks? The reason trooper was abandoned for melandru/hoelbrak (yes ofcourse along with the food) is because you put a cooldown on your condi clear when you can just have minus almost 100% duration. Some people started using trooper again for a time in gvgs only to deal with the opponent using +40% duration food etc there are many variations.

Also, god no.. you dont pick runes for the stats, no-one in the melee is running full nomads or full zerker meaning any change in stats due to rune choice as long as it isnt a completely useless stat like condi dmg can simply be rebalanced by swapping around your gear stat choices, you always pick the rune for the effects.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Hoelbrak gives -20% condi duration. You must be saying when combined with food. It doesn’t give you more stacks of might when empowering, just duration, and might is the first boon stripped. The point is Hoelbrak is for dps front line meta. However, if you are getting chilled and immobilized all the time, maybe you should change things up. Sacrifice getting some might stacks in combat for mobility and survivability through trooper runes.

And I don’t advocate every guardian run this. I find having a mix of shout and concecration for purging flames, and other consecrations a good mix. I’ve had many people come back at me saying “Trooper Runes are dumb,” “I’d never run trooper runes,” “What are Trooper Runes?” If everyone in frontline is running dps then kitten about being chilled and imob all the time.

I just hate people who think everyone should run one thing when a variety is better and usually help the group more. It really boils down to group comp. And if you’re running with a lot of pugs, they usually need more support as pugs generally run selfish, higher-dps builds.

gotta agree with a lot of your points.
I used to ask people to slot a Sigil of Water (30% chance to proc on attack) on their melee weapons. Because if you get enough people doing so, you litterally heal the whole frontline by just swinging your weapon. Took a while, then a guild tried it because what the hell, the sigils is less then 30 silver a piece…. end result, we had 15 people wielding hammers, greatswords or staffs with that sigil, healing for 5x 550-600 HP every 10 or so seconds. Does not sound like a huge deal, but that is almost 8k HP randomly healing your guild in a AOE every 10 seconds. Just from attacking.
Is there better sigils out there, sure, but can other sigils cause so much benefit to a group, for so low price ? i am not so sure there is any other sigil that can, not unless you want to spend some gold.

people do not think, especially in NA this is definetively true. EU is marginally more flexible in builds, but they too are moving towards " only builds on metabattle or gtfo ". which kills the game.

You wonder why a game stagnates? It is because players stubbornly refuses to look at their options and they MAKE the game stagnate. So instead players demand that the devs make their current setup so weak they HAVE to change, because their own imagination apparently cannot shift the direction on their own.

Ha! I use sigil of water on my guardian’s staff.

This is so cool

Even worse is the guild we face last 9 weeks that use 5 venom share on sup siege and zoom hack.

Prysin.8542:

That being said, what do you play good sir? Some build copied from Metabattles? or some build made up by your guild leadership?

You should google Red Guard

I agree, venom share is pretty strong for just clicking skills 6-10 in a row.

But at the other hand I really like the kind it works.
You are giving enchantments of your class to other classes that can use it more effectively.
In my opinion there should be more skills and mechanics like that, e.g. giving distortion (with reflect trait ) to your leader, or make projectiles of the necro bounce while giving him an enchantment…. Idk

At the moment I see only combo fields and boons as possibility for playing more effective together. And of corse the timing of dmg/conditions/cc.

Illusion der Nebel.5860:

I agree, venom share is pretty strong for just clicking skills 6-10 in a row.

But at the other hand I really like the kind it works.
You are giving enchantments of your class to other classes that can use it more effectively.
In my opinion there should be more skills and mechanics like that, e.g. giving distortion (with reflect trait ) to your leader, or make projectiles of the necro bounce while giving him an enchantment…. Idk

At the moment I see only combo fields and boons as possibility for playing more effective together. And of corse the timing of dmg/conditions/cc.

That’s really oversimplifying venom share. If you just spam 6-10, you’ll most likely be dead in 15 seconds and aren’t contributing much to the group.

I agree with the second part, but there’s already a lot of that in the game.

Jesuse when can we expect fix for that thief spell ?

What, break the only team support offering thief has?