Guild Wars 2

Wasnt retal nerfed by 50% along with confusion? Just noticed today that im getting 375dmg from retal.

mmmm just imagine you were taking about 750 damage before.

or are you trying to get it lowered beyound the already minsculeamount as it is?

I don’t rebember getting 750 ever. I believe after last patch with confusion i was getting hits for 180.

I believe retal was left alone, I think they just made it more visible affect so you can see it now did they not.

Retaliation damage isn’t static, so remembering getting hit for 180 means nothing. 375 is easily achievable after the patch.

Oh and yeah it was nerfed. By 33% I believe.

^^^ he beat me too it.

as for the 180 he may not have been traited for condition which is the driving force behind confusion

echo.2053:

^^^ he beat me too it.

as for the 180 he may not have been traited for condition which is the driving force behind confusion

Not true, it’s based on power.

sPvP and WvW: 65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack < wiki says otherwise

EFWinters.5421:

echo.2053:

^^^ he beat me too it.

as for the 180 he may not have been traited for condition which is the driving force behind confusion

Not true, it’s based on power.

if you read what your quoteing then you notice hes talking about confusion when he says the culculation is based on condition damage and thats true

but its also true that retaliation is based on power

Korsbaek.9803:

EFWinters.5421:

echo.2053:

^^^ he beat me too it.

as for the 180 he may not have been traited for condition which is the driving force behind confusion

Not true, it’s based on power.

if you read what your quoteing then you notice hes talking about confusion when he says the culculation is based on condition damage and thats true

but its also true that retaliation is based on power

Oh, when OP mentioned 180 he was definitely talking about retaliation, that’s why I misunderstood that.

I run a condition tank mesmer and have retal running all the time. Even with my lower power rating (around 1150), I’m still getting a good amount of retal output (284). I love when some guardians think they are so special, jump into a camp with me in it, pull everything to them to kill it, just to die themselves. This is because I drop a chaos storm at their feet and all those NPC’s end up with retal. Big ouchies to those guardian bunkers. I can’t help but sit back and laugh when this happens.

That is definitely too high after the nerf.

From the wiki, the formula for retaliation is 198.45 + (0.075 * Power)

If it actually is nerfed by 50%, then it should deal 750 before the nerf. This is only achieved with someone having 7354 power, which I don’t think it’s even close to possible.

Funny thing is, I’ve seen those retaliation numbers also on myself.

echo.2053:

sPvP and WvW: 65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack < wiki says otherwise

Are you sure this is true for all WvWvW areas? I heard that relation does different damage on borderlands and Eternal Battlegrounds (thus it could be a bug). Can anybody confirm this?

On borderlands retaliation still does full damage, in EB it does the reduced damage.

Serval.6458:

On borderlands retaliation still does full damage, in EB it does the reduced damage.

Wut. Prove it, wheres Devon when you need him.
Or even just point to me in what patch notes.

Retaliation does insane amounts of damage if you try and launch an aoe (or even some bow shots that hit multiple targets – I can easily take 12k + damage from retal. Unlike confusion, waiting for retal to come off your target isn’t going to happen, as they can stack it all day long.

The stupid thing about retaliation is you can paint your entire zerg with it 24/7.

Needs a serious nerf bat – it doesn’t help stop zergs at all, in fact it very much encourages them, it has stupidly long uptime and there is no way to avoid it if you ever want to damage an enemy.

No idea why they nerfed confusion to hell which was very anti zerg and yet left confusion completely alone- maybe some thief complained about confusion….

It doesn’t need to be nerfed, people just need to learn to play better. Seriously, enough with the "let’s nerf anything that consistently kills us. " After AN killed confusion builds, this is probably the last viable build for mesmers in wvw zerg fighting, along with reflection. If this were to get a further nerf, the class would be relegated to doing nothing but creating portals.

Gonna need quite a few guardians to paint an entire zerg with retal…

Ghanto.9784:

It doesn’t need to be nerfed, people just need to learn to play better. Seriously, enough with the "let’s nerf anything that consistently kills us. " After AN killed confusion builds, this is probably the last viable build for mesmers in wvw zerg fighting, along with reflection. If this were to get a further nerf, the class would be relegated to doing nothing but creating portals.

I disagree as it should be the same as in spvp – balanced to pvp. As for mesmer they unlikely are the last class that has to complains about utilities.

So now you see 50% nerfed dmg readings and you wanna nerf it even more? Ignorance really is bliss.

When I run my guardian, I obviously wish retaliation was higher.

But when I run my ele, and I drop all my AoE’s on an enemy zerg that is grouped up behind a gate in WvW , it can cause 20k+ in purely retaliation damage in about 5 seconds. I have to drop my AoE’s and immediately use every heal I have, and sometimes I still go down from retaliation. If retaliation were higher, there would be too high a price to pay for using AoE on enemy zergs.

Rob.7624:

Nokaru.7831:

Rob.7624:

What you are QQ’ing about is that you want to hit all 5 people with just your 1 skill and not have anything done back to you.

You just want to mindlessly sit in AoE with Retaliation and be rewarded with the free damage for it. We know.

Its basically the only damage my character does.

And by the way, Retaliation was only nerfed by 33%, not 50%.

The amount of application of Retaliation far exceeds Boon Removal. Against a group composed of 20-30% Guardians, you can have Retaliation up 100% of the time.

The most reliably form of Boon Removal is Mesmer Null Field and Necromancer Wells. However, these will only strip 1 Boon every second, and require the enemy to stand in the (comparatively) small AoE (240 Radius); the application of Retaliation (and Boons in general) is usually with Shouts, which have a range of 600+. (Some are 900/1200) And this is to remove a Boon, not Retaliation necessarily. (There are other Boons in the game)

You say you know what the developers intended with Retaliation. Are you saying that Retaliation was intended to stay up indefinitely? Retaliation was meant to be something a character used reactively, and have a short duration so waiting it out is actually an option. In WvW, with all of the extra Boon Duration from being in a PvE environment, this simply does not happen.

There’s a reason posts about Retaliation keep popping up. Before, it was the silent killer since it did not provide clear feedback to the player of when it was doing damage to them. With the new Retaliation graphic, it has been exposed for how frequently zergs get free damage from one boon.

Nokaru.7831:

Rob.7624:

Nokaru.7831:

Rob.7624:

What you are QQ’ing about is that you want to hit all 5 people with just your 1 skill and not have anything done back to you.

You just want to mindlessly sit in AoE with Retaliation and be rewarded with the free damage for it. We know.

Its basically the only damage my character does.

And by the way, Retaliation was only nerfed by 33%, not 50%.

The amount of application of Retaliation far exceeds Boon Removal. Against a group composed of 20-30% Guardians, you can have Retaliation up 100% of the time.

The most reliably form of Boon Removal is Mesmer Null Field and Necromancer Wells. However, these will only strip 1 Boon every second, and require the enemy to stand in the (comparatively) small AoE (240 Radius); the application of Retaliation (and Boons in general) is usually with Shouts, which have a range of 600+. (Some are 900/1200) And this is to remove a Boon, not Retaliation necessarily. (There are other Boons in the game)

You say you know what the developers intended with Retaliation. Are you saying that Retaliation was intended to stay up indefinitely? Retaliation was meant to be something a character used reactively, and have a short duration so waiting it out is actually an option. In WvW, with all of the extra Boon Duration from being in a PvE environment, this simply does not happen.

There’s a reason posts about Retaliation keep popping up. Before, it was the silent killer since it did not provide clear feedback to the player of when it was doing damage to them. With the new Retaliation graphic, it has been exposed for how frequently zergs get free damage from one boon.

There was no exact figures given out by anet, by player testing its 33% ~ 50% in WvW and sPvP.

You would need a group of atleast 50% guardians running boon duration retaliation builds which involves quite a fair bit of traiting and even then that won’t guarantee you 100% uptime due to the 5 man limit not distinguishing between people who already have retaliation as well as being within range, and no, there are no retaliation shouts of even close to 1200 range.

ie. everyone would have to be stacked upon each other every 6 seconds to pop off a retal skill as the duration was nerfed ages back to 5 stacks.
(Yes you could have everyone stacked and do it all at once but some peeps would get a ton and others wouldn’t, and then boon strip would wipe out the whole thing at once and reapplication is one of the main points of anti-retal). But put it into perspective, you run 50% AoE boon strip players in the other zerg, the cool down for every retaliation skill is like 40seconds, when they’re gone in the first 10seconds everyone will get rolled (because like I said, its my only damage).

Fighting a single guardian speced into it in 1vs1? Just wait for it to evaporate or pile conditions on him. Everyone knows guardians are like potatoes in a blender when faced against conditions not to mention Necros are OP.

Where do I get my facts from? 8months WvW with 1500 hours clocked on my single Guardian character.

Oh and lets see what else we can’t do.
Oh yes.
Ranged AoE which you keep bringing up.
Oh um gee I wish we could EVEN DO THAT.

Rob.7624:

There was no exact figures given out by anet, by player testing its 33% ~ 50% in WvW and sPvP.

It is 33%…

Mark Katzbach

Updated confusion and retaliation effects to do the same damage as they do in sPvP

Rob.7624:

You would need a group of atleast 50% guardians running boon duration retaliation builds which involves quite a fair bit of traiting and even then that won’t guarantee you 100% uptime due to the 5 man limit not distinguishing between people who already have retaliation as well as being within range, and no, there are no retaliation shouts of even close to 1200 range.

You only need 20-30% Guardians because 1 Guardian can buff 5 people.

Also, Boon Duration can easily reach and exceed 100% Duration with only one or two abilities slotted. (Source)

I said there are Boons which are provided at 1,200 range, which there are!

I guess thats the answer

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Retaliation-was-nerfed

This thread is full of massive amounts of misinformation, is it really that hard to research a wiki?

Retalation → 3 stacks confusion

Nonsense about needing a million guardians to keep retal up. Many classes can provide it for themselves, hell, if I spec for it my engineer can blast out aoe retal with over 50% uptime and keep it up on himself permanently. Any class with a blast finisher can hit a guardian’s light field. ONE SINGLE GUARDIAN can provide retal for a zerg if they know what blast finishers are. Many skills are blast finishers, many of them just get used no matter what, light fields have a fairly high priority, a mindless zerg mindlessly spamming has decent retal uptime by default. Stop suggesting it requires skill.

Retaliation is pretty much a hard counter to most elementalist’s weapon skills. Funny enough, the D/D bunker that ANet hates so much is about the only build that doesn’t kill itself to retal. I thought it was cool that they made Arc Lightning a piercing attack until I used it on the first group, bye bye scepter, not really fun using a weapon where most of the dps skills kill me faster than my opponent (tons of tiny hits, ouch, easily 15+ hits of retal per second) and the others are all on the list of hardest skills in the game to land.

The damage nerf wasn’t the greatest fix. A better fix would be to put an internal CD on retal procs per target to make some weapons not just suicidal, OR make retal damage dodgeable/blockable.

Too many classes can apply retal, too few classes have any boon stripping mechanics. Retal heavily favors some builds and classes. It’s current implementation is bad for variety and balance.

Well, currently it’s basically impossible to drop a wall of reflection/feedback in an enemy zerg. Feedback just dropped me from 17k hp to 0 in ~2s from retaliation alone.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Ghanto.9784:

It doesn’t need to be nerfed, people just need to learn to play better. Seriously, enough with the "let’s nerf anything that consistently kills us. " After AN killed confusion builds, this is probably the last viable build for mesmers in wvw zerg fighting, along with reflection. If this were to get a further nerf, the class would be relegated to doing nothing but creating portals.

I disagree as it should be the same as in spvp – balanced to pvp. As for mesmer they unlikely are the last class that has to complains about utilities.

Well, for people like myself, who play the game much more for the wvw then the pvp, I couldn’t disagree more. I couldn’t possibly care less about pvp. And it’s a completely different dynamic, I’m really not sure what exactly you think five on five group fights in pvp have in common with open world wvw zerg fighting. And the same argument applies to the Mesmer class specifically, what works so well in pvp does not work so well in wvw, when it comes to mainly zerg on zerg fighting. They require very different builds. As far as I’m concerned, when you talk about pvp and wvw you might as well be talking about two totally different games.

Iavra.8510:

Well, currently it’s basically impossible to drop a wall of reflection/feedback in an enemy zerg. Feedback just dropped me from 17k hp to 0 in ~2s from retaliation alone.

That’s how the game works: If the enemy stands in AoE or Reflection, they are rewarded with free damage. Most of the time zergs don’t even realize they down you because of it.

Retaliation just makes some builds and abilities useless. It isn’t about “Don’t mindlessly AoE people with Retaliation;” it’s more like “Don’t AoE, EVER.”

Serval.6458:

On borderlands retaliation still does full damage, in EB it does the reduced damage.

Can somebody confirm this with either a video or screen shot? Because if that really is so, Arenanet made a bug (they forgot to do the adjustments for the borderlands). At least to me, the retaliation seems strong there, but I am so busy commanding or roaming crazy style, I rarely have time to read the numbers.

I actually think retal damage needs to be upped quite a bit, but made so it can only apply to melee hits (ranged attacks will not retaliate).

Scoobaniec.9561:

Wasnt retal nerfed by 50% along with confusion? Just noticed today that im getting 375dmg from retal.

Retaliation was supposed to have its damage lowered by 33% in WvW. However, Retaliation is not reduced on any map except the Eternal Battlegrounds. (Even the Jumping Puzzle)

Iavra.8510:

Well, currently it’s basically impossible to drop a wall of reflection/feedback in an enemy zerg. Feedback just dropped me from 17k hp to 0 in ~2s from retaliation alone.

Yep, it’s called being careful for one. Plus you likely did 5-10 times that in total damage, albeit to many sources.

guardians have 1 retaliation giving utielty but 6 light fields over diffrent weapons that dont need a chain to cast plus 1 on the hammer auto and 2 on utielty that has it to
2 blast finishers on weapons that gives a hell of alot of stacking retaliation with

i have a ide about that the damage from retaliation did not happen all across the board but might be wrong and i have no prof to prove it just a gut felling

but it should have had a 33% nerf tho i would have prefored that the nerf had been 50% and the confusion damage got the 33% but that might just be me

The amount of damage it does is fine, it’s the fact there is no internal cooldown to limit the amount of damage you receive. I fire off one barrage, which hits maybe 3-10 people for 3 hits each of around 1k damage, so the most they got was 3k each, quickly dealt with by zerg boons etc. I get between 2k and 9k retaliation- however, if a pile of people are all bunched up I hit 5 random people multiple times, each receiving around 1k damage and I get hit for 12k. Unless I’m at full health, I’m downed and the zerg or even those few players it hit didn’t even feel it.

IT NEVER MISSES- what other skill has 100% chance of hitting you no matter what?

All they need to do to fix it is give it an internal cooldown of one hit to you per .5 of a second or 1 per second, and fix the duration to last 10 seconds, non stackable, so that it becomes a skill to be used at the right time not just blanketed on recharge without any thought at all.

Yeah… Try throwing grenades as an Engineer before talking about anything related to Retaliation. Even against one person it’s just too much sometimes.

+1 for internal CD. Or nerf it like they nerfed confusion.

Victory.2879:

The amount of damage it does is fine, it’s the fact there is no internal cooldown to limit the amount of damage you receive. I fire off one barrage, which hits maybe 3-10 people for 3 hits each of around 1k damage, so the most they got was 3k each, quickly dealt with by zerg boons etc. I get between 2k and 9k retaliation- however, if a pile of people are all bunched up I hit 5 random people multiple times, each receiving around 1k damage and I get hit for 12k. Unless I’m at full health, I’m downed and the zerg or even those few players it hit didn’t even feel it.

IT NEVER MISSES- what other skill has 100% chance of hitting you no matter what?

All they need to do to fix it is give it an internal cooldown of one hit to you per .5 of a second or 1 per second, and fix the duration to last 10 seconds, non stackable, so that it becomes a skill to be used at the right time not just blanketed on recharge without any thought at all.

Your math is way way off. First, if you hit each person 1k three times, so you dealt out 15-20k or so. Retal then deals around 380 each hit for a total of 5700. This is a far cry from the 12k you are talking about.

nerf it like they nerfed confusion( by rewirting last patch so going from before that) makeing the 50% go to retal and the 33% go to confusion that would help i gess but giving it a internal cooldown will most likely kill it and it will not help you very much victory as it would be 5 different retaliations you tricker

Well in general if thats is true it has to be fixed.

Dynnen.6405:

Gonna need quite a few guardians to paint an entire zerg with retal…

No you don’t you need light fields and blast finishers. Guardians just have good personal access to AOE retal that supplements the light field symbols they lay on the ground like candy in every spec.

Nordic Natedog.4360:

Your math is way way off. First, if you hit each person 1k three times, so you dealt out 15-20k or so. Retal then deals around 380 each hit for a total of 5700. This is a far cry from the 12k you are talking about.

Barrage has the capability to hit 5 people 12 times over it’s long duration.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Barrage

Retal hakitten me for over 400 damage per tick before, but lets assume a more modest 350. 5 X 12 = 60 potential hits from barrage, 60 potential retal procs. 60 X 350 = 21,000 potential damage. It’s extremely easy to down yourself from a single barrage on a zerg that has retal. Likely in fact unless you are tanky. Even then it does most of your life and could still down you in worst case scenarios.

Against high guardian concentration groups retal is indeed pretty much permanent. Against other groups it’s present at least the first 15 seconds of a fight. Are you saying because I’m Ranger I shouldn’t AOE at all? Elementalist shouldn’t be able to AOE at all? What else are you supposed to do against masses of people, single target damage?

I’m ok with the concept of a damage shield, it’s a very old concept. However the damage returned from retal is wildly inconsistent and destroys some weapons and builds while barely even touching others. It’s not dependent or effectiveness of attacks. Just hits.

Rather than an internal cooldown, just cap the amount of retaliation damage you can take per second (about 1.5k or so). Most likely you’ll only be hitting that cap when AoEing zergs, and it shouldn’t affect small scale or solo roaming play at all. Other nerfs to retaliation would just be overdoing it, and this way it’s actually a disadvantage (though a very small one) for the zerg, as they can’t get as much retaliation damage off for free without even having to think about it.

Nordic Natedog.4360:

Victory.2879:

The amount of damage it does is fine, it’s the fact there is no internal cooldown to limit the amount of damage you receive. I fire off one barrage, which hits maybe 3-10 people for 3 hits each of around 1k damage, so the most they got was 3k each, quickly dealt with by zerg boons etc. I get between 2k and 9k retaliation- however, if a pile of people are all bunched up I hit 5 random people multiple times, each receiving around 1k damage and I get hit for 12k. Unless I’m at full health, I’m downed and the zerg or even those few players it hit didn’t even feel it.

IT NEVER MISSES- what other skill has 100% chance of hitting you no matter what?

All they need to do to fix it is give it an internal cooldown of one hit to you per .5 of a second or 1 per second, and fix the duration to last 10 seconds, non stackable, so that it becomes a skill to be used at the right time not just blanketed on recharge without any thought at all.

Your math is way way off. First, if you hit each person 1k three times, so you dealt out 15-20k or so. Retal then deals around 380 each hit for a total of 5700. This is a far cry from the 12k you are talking about.

Roll a ranger and go test it- as a poster below you has stated, the theoretical maximum hits is 5 times 12= 60 at around 380 per tick.

‘Luckily’ a lot of bow shots miss/get blocked/dodged/generally fail to hit so I was showing what happens on an average barrage.

Even 1.5k damage incoming per second from a passive skill is way too much, bearing in mind the incredibly long time barrage takes to animate and complete.

And if you think only barrage is the problem, think again- pretty much all my bowshots can hit multiple targets and most of the time I can get back MORE damage than I am causing without trying very hard.

The duration is what really causes the problem – if it lasted as long as confusion (6 seconds, non-stacking duration) it wouldn’t be a problem, wait for it to drop before firing, along with never missing and having NO cap.

It’s a badly designed skill and needs fixing- how they fix it is up to them. Maybe the easiest fix won’t be anything we have come up with yet- but it does need a fix.

Victory.2879:

Even 1.5k damage incoming per second from a passive skill is way too much, bearing in mind the incredibly long time barrage takes to animate and complete.

If you think ranger is bad against retaliation, think about the engineer. Flamethrower’s attack #1, flame jet, rapidly ticks 10 times up to 5 enemies (50x relation trigger very fast). Grandmaster grenadier can hit up to 8×5 = 40 people with grenade barrage. That is a half a second activation skill, which cannot be canceled after it has been triggered. I remember getting around 16k dmg from just one barrage when I launched at a tightly packed enemy melee train, fully buffed. Each enemy was getting around 200-500 dmg from me. Fair game, eh?

I think both the confusion and retaliation shouldn’t trigger more than once per one skill activation. Retaliation triggering up to 50 times from attack #1 is just… brain dead.

Ghanto.9784:

It doesn’t need to be nerfed, people just need to learn to play better. Seriously, enough with the "let’s nerf anything that consistently kills us. " After AN killed confusion builds, this is probably the last viable build for mesmers in wvw zerg fighting, along with reflection. If this were to get a further nerf, the class would be relegated to doing nothing but creating portals.

It DOES need a nerf. But not in damage, but in how many instances can be triggered.

For instance, as an Engineer i use grenades for AoE. I throw 3 so i can hit upto 15 ppl clumped up. This means i instantly take 15xRetal to my face. The damage i take myself is much higher then the damage i actually did with that one single attack.

This very much punishes AoE from being used on a zerg, which is ofcourse weird because people should be punished for grouping in an AoE and not moving out.
The nerf to Retal shouldnt come in a damage nerf. But instead, not taking 15 bloody procs whenever i try to use my basic grenade ability. Making it so that a single attack can only proc a single instance of Retal.

Especially considering Retal isnt a tactical choice in a zerg. Guardians poop lightfields all over the place, and plenty of blastfinishers happen to proc those into mass-Retal for everyone. Its a completely mindkitten on that does way to much damage to people AoEing a zerg.

edit:

Seriously arenanet? “Mindless” and “boon” put to close together is cencored? Seriously…

Deniara Devious.3948:

I think both the confusion and retaliation shouldn’t trigger more than once per one skill activation. Retaliation triggering up to 50 times from attack #1 is just… brain dead.

Well, retaliation is supposed to be the counter to fast hitting skills, like aegis is against single-hit high damaging abilities. That being said, putting some kind of cap of it would be the best solution in my opinion, like I pointed out earlier. If it would only trigger once on every skill, retaliation would be absolutely useless.

Okaishi.8320:

Deniara Devious.3948:

I think both the confusion and retaliation shouldn’t trigger more than once per one skill activation. Retaliation triggering up to 50 times from attack #1 is just… brain dead.

Well, retaliation is supposed to be the counter to fast hitting skills, like aegis is against single-hit high damaging abilities. That being said, putting some kind of cap of it would be the best solution in my opinion, like I pointed out earlier. If it would only trigger once on every skill, retaliation would be absolutely useless.

Well make it trigger like max. once per 1/2 second or something. To have it trigger up to 50 times on a roughly 2 second skill is just ridiculous and broken:
See: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Jet
(no, I don’t use that skill in WvWvW, and you can guess the reason)

Serval.6458:

On borderlands retaliation still does full damage, in EB it does the reduced damage.

Confirmed, noticed it right after the patch. But shhhhhhh!!!!

Sadly in Zerg play retal does need some kind of nerf. In small scale fights its fine but when a few bright sparks learn to lightfield buff their pug zerg it make fighting it close to impossible.