Guild Wars 2

Deniara Devious.3948:

Okaishi.8320:

Deniara Devious.3948:

I think both the confusion and retaliation shouldn’t trigger more than once per one skill activation. Retaliation triggering up to 50 times from attack #1 is just… brain dead.

Well, retaliation is supposed to be the counter to fast hitting skills, like aegis is against single-hit high damaging abilities. That being said, putting some kind of cap of it would be the best solution in my opinion, like I pointed out earlier. If it would only trigger once on every skill, retaliation would be absolutely useless.

Well make it trigger like max. once per 1/2 second or something. To have it trigger up to 50 times on a roughly 2 second skill is just ridiculous and broken:
See: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Jet
(no, I don’t use that skill in WvWvW, and you can guess the reason)

Huh, actually, flame jet hits up to three targets, so it’s up to 30 hits. Not that it changes much anyway, you still kill yourself.
Imho, the absurdity is that they’ve nerfed almost everything that could make use of those fast hits – like crit foods – giving cooldowns here and there, but there is no cooldown on retaliation.

Ralathar.7236:

Dynnen.6405:

Gonna need quite a few guardians to paint an entire zerg with retal…

No you don’t you need light fields and blast finishers. Guardians just have good personal access to AOE retal that supplements the light field symbols they lay on the ground like candy in every spec.

Nordic Natedog.4360:

Your math is way way off. First, if you hit each person 1k three times, so you dealt out 15-20k or so. Retal then deals around 380 each hit for a total of 5700. This is a far cry from the 12k you are talking about.

Barrage has the capability to hit 5 people 12 times over it’s long duration.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Barrage

Retal hakitten me for over 400 damage per tick before, but lets assume a more modest 350. 5 X 12 = 60 potential hits from barrage, 60 potential retal procs. 60 X 350 = 21,000 potential damage. It’s extremely easy to down yourself from a single barrage on a zerg that has retal. Likely in fact unless you are tanky. Even then it does most of your life and could still down you in worst case scenarios.

Against high guardian concentration groups retal is indeed pretty much permanent. Against other groups it’s present at least the first 15 seconds of a fight. Are you saying because I’m Ranger I shouldn’t AOE at all? Elementalist shouldn’t be able to AOE at all? What else are you supposed to do against masses of people, single target damage?

I’m ok with the concept of a damage shield, it’s a very old concept. However the damage returned from retal is wildly inconsistent and destroys some weapons and builds while barely even touching others. It’s not dependent or effectiveness of attacks. Just hits.

I know that barrage has the potential for more hits, I was going off the numbers he was stating. Every AoE has the potential for very similar effects like the guy complaining about dropping a feedback bubble onto a mob and getting knocked down to 0 nearly instantly. Again, you are looking it merely at a point of view on how much damage YOU took and not the overall effectiveness of your attack. You certainly got hit with a ton of damage but you dished out an overwhelmingly greater number onto the foes you hit. This is the case with all AoE. Yes you run the risk of being insta-downed by dropping some AoE onto a zerg, but you are also doing it to do a considerable MORE damage to your foes. I don’t understand why people don’t understand this concept.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Victory.2879:

Even 1.5k damage incoming per second from a passive skill is way too much, bearing in mind the incredibly long time barrage takes to animate and complete.

If you think ranger is bad against retaliation, think about the engineer. Flamethrower’s attack #1, flame jet, rapidly ticks 10 times up to 5 enemies (50x relation trigger very fast). Grandmaster grenadier can hit up to 8×5 = 40 people with grenade barrage. That is a half a second activation skill, which cannot be canceled after it has been triggered. I remember getting around 16k dmg from just one barrage when I launched at a tightly packed enemy melee train, fully buffed. Each enemy was getting around 200-500 dmg from me. Fair game, eh?

I think both the confusion and retaliation shouldn’t trigger more than once per one skill activation. Retaliation triggering up to 50 times from attack #1 is just… brain dead.

Retaliation triggers only one time per damage tick per person so your granade hits 50 people that then each trickers 1 retaliation on each person so you only trickers one retaliation tho its just from each person.

and the highest i have seen retaliation trick for last night where 244 and most of the time it where 230 with 0-1 might stacks,

retaliation where op before the nerf but now its more ok tho i still think that the damage should have had a 50% nerf instead of 33% but makeing it so it wont stack uptime or makeing it have a internal cooldown is wrong in my oppinion if it would not stack uptime then it would stack intensati(makeing some very op retaliation times- think of 6 hit of retalitation of 1 guy) if retaliation gets a internal coolddown then it simply just dies in zerg fights or close to(this is my oppinion)

@Nordic Natedog.4360

I gave up arguing with these peeps,
They’ve all got it stuck in their heads that if someone hits a retaliation skill all the adjacent enemy just KO and die.

If you get killed using medium cd skills that are meant to be of protective nature (e.g. feedback, wall of reflection) there’s something wrong.
Basically retaliation forces you to drop a defensive cd where it is less effective, simply bad design.

Many times I’ve had to use my heal skill just after using Lava Font. Retaliation damage is brutal on skills that do ticks.

Yeah, retal is a joke. Oh nooo. I got hit for ~300 damage.

style.6173:

Yeah, retal is a joke. Oh nooo. I got hit for ~300 damage, 15 times, every time i attack.

fixed that for you

Caid.4932:

style.6173:

Yeah, retal is a joke. Oh nooo. I got hit for ~300 damage, 15 times, every time i attack.

fixed that for you

You must be a ranger trying to barrage into a zerg.

style.6173:

Caid.4932:

style.6173:

Yeah, retal is a joke. Oh nooo. I got hit for ~300 damage, 15 times, every time i attack.

fixed that for you

You must be a ranger trying to barrage into a zerg.

Or a grenade engineer or a staff ele or a dozen other builds and specs.

Rob.7624:

@Nordic Natedog.4360

I gave up arguing with these peeps,
They’ve all got it stuck in their heads that if someone hits a retaliation skill all the adjacent enemy just KO and die.

I know what you mean. There is just too many people out there who just cry nerf nerf nerf when a fight doesn’t go their way.

Noone crying for nerf here. That retaliation damage was meant for pve as mobs there don’t attack as fast as us, its was “actually nerfed” but they just forgot/don’t know that they don’t applied it to borders. There was reason why its was “nerfed”

Caid.4932:

style.6173:

Caid.4932:

style.6173:

Yeah, retal is a joke. Oh nooo. I got hit for ~300 damage, 15 times, every time i attack.

fixed that for you

You must be a ranger trying to barrage into a zerg.

Or a grenade engineer or a staff ele or a dozen other builds and specs.

Or a Mesmer trying to Feedback a zerg.

Nordic Natedog.4360:

I know that barrage has the potential for more hits, I was going off the numbers he was stating. Every AoE has the potential for very similar effects like the guy complaining about dropping a feedback bubble onto a mob and getting knocked down to 0 nearly instantly. Again, you are looking it merely at a point of view on how much damage YOU took and not the overall effectiveness of your attack. You certainly got hit with a ton of damage but you dished out an overwhelmingly greater number onto the foes you hit. This is the case with all AoE. Yes you run the risk of being insta-downed by dropping some AoE onto a zerg, but you are also doing it to do a considerable MORE damage to your foes. I don’t understand why people don’t understand this concept.

The problem isn’t that you did that damage back to me. The problem is six-fold.

1. You literally did that damage back to me passively with 1 move. So with one skill you downed me.

2. You didn’t even have to use any sort of skill, you applied the buff and lol’d as I got wrecked by a passive buff.

3, You can do other things while you reap this damage. This means that you did 10k-20k+ to me over the course of 7 seconds. This is only what I personally gave you. The reality is that you could have literally done 50k of damage during that time in a zerg vs zerg battle, by applying 1 buff and this isn’t even including your own damage.

4. There is not proper counter-play for it to be that strong. Boon stripping is an option, but it is rare and unreliable. You will many times strip other boons instead. If there were skills people could counter retal with, it’d be fine, but you cannot reliably counter it. Not attacking till it’s down is not an option since it becomes a daze at that point and can be kept up quite a long time or even permanently.

5. It affects some attacks way more than others. Ranger Greatsword will take modest damage, Ranger Longbow will get utterly wrecked, thief will take minor damage outside of clusterbomb spam, condition thief will not even notice you’ve used it.

So maybe you think it’s fair to gain the damage of many people from one boon. However I don’ think that is balanced at all.

Again, you are looking it merely at a point of view on how much damage YOU took and not the overall effectiveness of your attack. You certainly got hit with a ton of damage but you dished out an overwhelmingly greater number onto the foes you hit.

Tell ya what. I’m doing around 500-600 damage a hit with barrage currently. You are doing 300-400 a hit back to me. That’s over 50% damage return.

If you think this is so fair then you should take over 50% of YOUR damage back to you. If you really believe your own logic you should be fine with that. After all you just have to look at the effectiveness of your attack. So for instance a single large strike doing 2k to 3 people would be 6k total damage and so you would receive 3,600 from retal.

Victory.2879:

No idea why they nerfed confusion to hell which was very anti zerg and yet left confusion completely alone- maybe some thief complained about confusion….

You rang? Thief here to complain about retaliation.

I play pistol/pistol and dagger/pistol.

I proc retaliation 8 times in 1.5 seconds (every Unload) and only 1 time on a Back stab.

When I use Unload I do 4-7k damage on my target, when I use Backstab I do 6k-8k damage.

Unload on a player with retaliation damages me for 1500 to 2800 hp – which is 10-20% of my health bar lost on every Unload.

If I backstab, which does more damage, I’ll only be damaged for 200 to 350 hp – which is 1.5-2.5% of my health bar.

The simple fix for retaliation is to give it a 2 second cooldown after proc.

Micro cooldowns manage to stop many things in this game being OP (remember Omnomberry Ghosts?) and a micro cooldown can keep retaliations damage ticks from being nerfed any further but remove the OP retaliation damage caused by multi-hit skills.

Can we find some way of solving the issue that doesn’t destroy the Guardian’s ranged viability? Since the patch I’ve been losing 1v1s all over the shop to people I didn’t before, such as condi necroes that I just couldn’t get to due to my lack of range.

Anyways instead of ‘crying nerf’, why don’t we fix the amount of times Barrage, Flamethrowers, Tornadoes and Reflections procc; give them 20% procc chance like with multi-projectiles. Enough nerfing, I would like to play my profession and not have to worry about losing my sparse WvW player-esque funds finding a new build or a new class.

IMO it’s not OP it’s just unbalanced. It does need some tweaking. Higher damage with an icd would work to even things out a bit more. Just a str8 nerf wouldn’t fix anything.

Empyre.2531:

If you get killed using medium cd skills that are meant to be of protective nature (e.g. feedback, wall of reflection) there’s something wrong.
Basically retaliation forces you to drop a defensive cd where it is less effective, simply bad design.

That’s a grey area. Ask mesmers if they consider feedback a defensive cd. Many skills may be either depending on situation. Even dagger storm or time warp can be used as defensive cd.

Quote: Again, you are looking it merely at a point of view on how much damage YOU took and not the overall effectiveness of your attack. You certainly got hit with a ton of damage but you dished out an overwhelmingly greater number onto the foes you hit. Quote.

That just about sums up everything that is wrong with retaliation and the attitude of guardians on it.

If several people hit your zerg ball then the total retaliation damage your ONE SKILL did could be well over 100,000. You got hit for nothing, and yet you are claiming that it is reasonable for your skill to be able to do so much damage and have no consequences to you.

Let’s see how you would cope if 25% of your retaliation damage was reflected back onto you- would be quite hilarious to see guardians dropping instantly in zerg fights until they learned to use their skills situationally like they keep telling rangers to.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

Victory.2879:

No idea why they nerfed confusion to hell which was very anti zerg and yet left confusion completely alone- maybe some thief complained about confusion….

You rang? Thief here to complain about retaliation.

I play pistol/pistol and dagger/pistol.

I proc retaliation 8 times in 1.5 seconds (every Unload) and only 1 time on a Back stab.

When I use Unload I do 4-7k damage on my target, when I use Backstab I do 6k-8k damage.

Unload on a player with retaliation damages me for 1500 to 2800 hp – which is 10-20% of my health bar lost on every Unload.

If I backstab, which does more damage, I’ll only be damaged for 200 to 350 hp – which is 1.5-2.5% of my health bar.

The simple fix for retaliation is to give it a 2 second cooldown after proc.

Micro cooldowns manage to stop many things in this game being OP (remember Omnomberry Ghosts?) and a micro cooldown can keep retaliations damage ticks from being nerfed any further but remove the OP retaliation damage caused by multi-hit skills.

Giving retaliation a 2 second cooldown is a horrible idea, you might as well get rid of the entire boon in that case. It’s supposed to be the counter against fast hitting abilities like unload, while you have blinds and aegis to use against something like backstab (though in the case of backstab it’s not really a counter as failing it doesn’t make you come out of stealth and you can just backstab another time).

Though I agree that retaliation can proc far too many times for far too much damage, giving it an internal cooldown is not the solution because it renders the boon useless in any situation. If you want to nerf it, go with a damage cap of about 1-1.5k per second, preventing yourself from completely destroying yourself for AoEing that zerg, but the boon will remain a counter to fast hitting skills in small scale or solo situations.

isnt retalition based on power of the target, ~370 damage on it is what ~3200 on power?

Aeolus.3615:

isnt retalition based on power of the target, ~370 damage on it is what ~3200 on power?

I doubt it’s even possible to have 3200 power.

For Borderlands, 370 damage is about 2,3k power.

EFWinters.5421:

Aeolus.3615:

isnt retalition based on power of the target, ~370 damage on it is what ~3200 on power?

I doubt it’s even possible to have 3200 power.

For Borderlands, 370 damage is about 2,3k power.

wanted to say attack :/

It is obviously a bug that retal does 33% less dmg only on EB. As soon as it gets fixed it should be less of an issue.

On a personal note though (and alleged opness of retal aside), I’ve run WvW with all kinds of professions. The only ones that are still missing from my character select screen are necro and warrior. And I never seen retal as something that shuts my profession down in fights of any scale.

Because I do not simply expect that skills which are great in PvE or on a mob of training dummies would be as effective (if at all) against groups of intelligent opponents. There’s a wide variety of builds/stat-builds you can choose from and it’s not like particular skill is THE only way your class could/should/must rule the world.

P.S. I’ve seen so many times people dying on last boss on Urban Battlegrounds Fractal simply because they do not realize that he has 100% retal uptime and while they do not have appropriate build to sustain their HP pool against it, they mindlessly continue to hit him with everything they’ve got even when they are hovering on 10% hp and have their healing skills on cd.

I didn’t mean my post to sound like l2p one, but I guess is does anyway.

all i can say is, Learn to Play or avoid someone using a retaliation build.

Nina.4596:

all i can say is, Learn to Play or avoid someone using a retaliation build.

Ok, I’ll just avoid the ZvZ encounter where the enemy players would chase me half way across the map to kill me. (LOGIC)

If you think I do more damage than I take as a flamethrower engi? PER TICK?! Holy crap are you crazy. Single ticks from the FT dont hit hard by any stretch of the imagination, and we get FULL DAMAGE retal hits PER TICK (X50 in 2 seconds) thats at least 3 times the damage done to me than I can do to someone using retaliation all at once.

Nickthemoonwolf.1485:

Nina.4596:

all i can say is, Learn to Play or avoid someone using a retaliation build.

Ok, I’ll just avoid the ZvZ encounter where the enemy players would chase me half way across the map to kill me. (LOGIC)

Sounds like you need to spec into tank and lead around enemy zergs while your zerg takes stuff.

Nina.4596:

avoid someone using a retaliation build.

Basically, if you just stay away from this area you’ll be fine.

Nokaru.7831:

Nina.4596:

avoid someone using a retaliation build.

Basically, if you just stay away from this area you’ll be fine.

you’re completely right, this strategy has worked like a charm for me the last few weeks.

Yaro.3251:

It is obviously a bug that retal does 33% less dmg only on EB. As soon as it gets fixed it should be less of an issue.

On a personal note though (and alleged opness of retal aside), I’ve run WvW with all kinds of professions. The only ones that are still missing from my character select screen are necro and warrior. And I never seen retal as something that shuts my profession down in fights of any scale.

Because I do not simply expect that skills which are great in PvE or on a mob of training dummies would be as effective (if at all) against groups of intelligent opponents. There’s a wide variety of builds/stat-builds you can choose from and it’s not like particular skill is THE only way your class could/should/must rule the world.

P.S. I’ve seen so many times people dying on last boss on Urban Battlegrounds Fractal simply because they do not realize that he has 100% retal uptime and while they do not have appropriate build to sustain their HP pool against it, they mindlessly continue to hit him with everything they’ve got even when they are hovering on 10% hp and have their healing skills on cd.

I didn’t mean my post to sound like l2p one, but I guess is does anyway.

I’m going to have to agree… and the whole mindset of nerfing things you don’t know how to play against needs to stop (confusion only did damage when you used abilities and when those players who died after spamming 1 died, they were all up in arms). I would love to see anet buffing different aspects of each class and instead make other builds viable.

SniffyCube.6107:

I’m going to have to agree… and the whole mindset of nerfing things you don’t know how to play against needs to stop (confusion only did damage when you used abilities and when those players who died after spamming 1 died, they were all up in arms). I would love to see anet buffing different aspects of each class and instead make other builds viable.

Yes, nerfing Confusion was completely unwarranted. I remember watching an Elementalist 2 shot himself because he had 12 stacks of Confusion, and it happened instantly because he swapped an Attunement and attempted to heal.

People never noticed Retaliation damage before; it was subtle. Now everyone is painfully aware of it!

When playing engineer and using grenades on a zerg you kill yourself very fast to retaliation, it’s pretty crazy lol..

oxide.8324:

When playing engineer and using grenades on a zerg you kill yourself very fast to retaliation, it’s pretty crazy lol..

ok, so fix the way grenades work on retaliation as opposed to nerfing every class and build that uses it

Forget grenades, I want to use a flamethrower in WvW on my engineer ;-;
But 1 jet = half hp gone.

I’m telling you; solution is make Barrage, Tornado, Flamethrower, Nades tick retal less often – they shouldn’t procc so much, that’s the problem in all honesty. Confusion wasn’t OP either, it just needed to stop proccing on dodging and attunement swap as well as passive traits.

Make all of the above mentioned skilled the same as multi-projectile finisher, but with proccs maybe, 20% chance of proccing retal, that or just remove the stupid 15x procc in one use.

Stop crying nerf and buff the skills that are actually broken against this, I want to still have some viable ranger damage as a guardian, I’m sure you guys have noticed we aren’t the most speedy class in the game :P

Okaishi.8320:

Giving retaliation a 2 second cooldown is a horrible idea, you might as well get rid of the entire boon in that case. It’s supposed to be the counter against fast hitting abilities like unload, while you have blinds and aegis to use against something like backstab (though in the case of backstab it’s not really a counter as failing it doesn’t make you come out of stealth and you can just backstab another time).

Though I agree that retaliation can proc far too many times for far too much damage, giving it an internal cooldown is not the solution because it renders the boon useless in any situation. If you want to nerf it, go with a damage cap of about 1-1.5k per second, preventing yourself from completely destroying yourself for AoEing that zerg, but the boon will remain a counter to fast hitting skills in small scale or solo situations.

How do you know it is meant as a counter for fast hitting abilities? Has a developer stated this was the intention of the boon or is it an assumption? I’ve not read anything mentioning that this is the intention of the boon.

I’ve always looked at it as a boon to help you with a “net hitpoints” situation. By net hitpoints I mean where you have two competing HP bars (your bar and your opponents bar) and retaliation works to reduce the net hitpoint difference by damaging your opponent when they damage you. So the net difference is less. Unless a developer says the boon is intended to punish multi attacks then I don’t think that is what the intention was.

As far as a damage cap goes – probably a good idea also. I was not suggesting the cooldown would be internal to the player with the retal boon – I was saying it should be internal to the attacking player. So if you have retaliation on you and 5 people attack you then you’ll get 5 procs not 1 proc. If a grenade engineer throws a grenade into retal buffed zerg he will only get 1 proc instead of a near death experience.

A damage cap is fairly similar to a cooldown. Let’s say we make the damage cap 350 damage per 2 seconds. This is a very similar impact to having a 2 second cooldown on retaliation (per player, not per boon holder). It’s just playing with parameters. Shorter cooldown = higher damage from retaliation.

Either way, retaliation should either have timed cooldown, scale based on incoming damage or as you say have a damage cap over time.

Right now, retaliation is basically as bad as high stacks of confusion. I literally have to stop attacking guardians for 10 seconds (after Save Yourselves) or I will kill myself. It isn’t really balanced that a guardian can take players out of a fight for 10 seconds just by popping a utility.

Immolator.5640:

I’m telling you; solution is make Barrage, Tornado, Flamethrower, Nades tick retal less often – they shouldn’t procc so much, that’s the problem in all honesty. Confusion wasn’t OP either, it just needed to stop proccing on dodging and attunement swap as well as passive traits.

It includes many abilities though. Meteor Shower, Ice Storm, Glyph of Elements, Wall of Reflection, Feedback, Cluster Bomb, Dagger Storm – way too many than I can recall off the top of my head. Even an incredibly brief internal cooldown of 0.2 seconds would help this issue immensely.

Why not make retal a buff with stacks like might with a max of 5, if you hit him 5 times, the retal is gone.

That’s 5 × 300 damage for 1 passive Skill, more than enough and it won’t hurt pve.

Retaliation algorithm is …. For instance my necro with scepter, I hit for ~200 dmg and can take back 250+. My mesmer hit 3x~300 and can take back 3x~300.
Welcome to MU!

People are mad becouse they want to continue spam skils while target has retaliation, retaliation is here and people need to know when to stop atacking.

I’ve to say since tier 7 NA is mostly necros and thiefs during my playtime, i use a heavy retaliation build and 3 in 10 thief die just becouse they ignore the retaliation buff on my guardian and just want “blindly” to kill n’ laugh, while good/or common WvW players know how to counter it or wait to boon disapear then they can burst.

There are serious problems in this game yet people pay atention to minor stuff that is a l2p issue.

Aeolus.3615:

People are mad becouse they want to continue spam skils while target has retaliation, retaliations is here and people need to know when to stop.

You just want to keep being rewarded with free damage by standing in enemy AoE.

Aeolus.3615:

wait to boon disapear

This doesn’t happen in Tier 1. You’re on Tier 7 though, so I understand where the confusion comes from. Retaliation is meant to be a short duration defensive skill. The fact that it is up indefinitely in WvW is what breaks the Boon.

Nokaru.7831:

Aeolus.3615:

People are mad becouse they want to continue spam skils while target has retaliation, retaliations is here and people need to know when to stop.

You just want to keep being rewarded with free damage by standing in enemy AoE.

Aeolus.3615:

wait to boon disapear

This doesn’t happen in Tier 1. You’re on Tier 7 though, so I understand where the confusion comes from. Retaliation is meant to be a short duration defensive skill. The fact that it is up indefinitely in WvW is what breaks the Boon.

Make more necros tame a dragon and put some AC’s on it! J/K asside, on the reset nights we can have full maps on the 3 sides, one thing i notice is that players dont gather on a massive blob but on severel minor zergs 30/60max and not the 120+ as a see from some t1 screens, so the problem is the massive stacking of the boon and blast finishers are happening al te time, and in my opinion is a health bar battle it is needed a good health pool and defense to sustain damage and retaliation, atm 300-340 damage per tick isnt that much (on single target), and any change to it might hurt to some classes, yeah gw2 mechanics mmeh.

edit: engrish writting.

ps. no just want to ashame bad thiefs with retaliation, who think they can easilly insta kill, on my play time theres no AoE.

Aeolus.3615:

Make more necros tame a dragon and put some AC’s on it! J/K asside, on the reset nights we can have full maps on the 3 sides, one thing i notice is that players dont gather on a massive blob but on severel minor zergs 30/60max and not the 120+ as a see from some t1 screens, so the problem is the massive stacking of the boon and blast finishers are happening al te time, and in my opinion is a health bar battle it is needed a good health pool and defense to sustain damage and retaliation, atm 300-340 damage per tick isnt that much (on single target), and any change to it might hurt to some classes, yeah gw2 mechanics mmeh.

+1
for example (me) necromancer with Spiteful Spirit trait (Gain retaliation for 3 seconds when entering Death Shroud)

Suggestions: nerf mass retaliation source

I’d come to the defense of guardians and say ’don’t touch retaliation, this is a l2p issue’ but most of you basked in the glory of the confusion nerf and snickered while reading the thread leading up to its demise.
So, oh well.
Retaliation will be nerfed again and Anet will continue to nerf in response to the mass e-tears displayed on the forums from the zerglings.

KnattyDreads.1856:

I’d come to the defense of guardians and say ’don’t touch retaliation, this is a l2p issue’ but most of you basked in the glory of the confusion nerf and snickered while reading the thread leading up to its demise.
So, oh well.
Retaliation will be nerfed again and Anet will continue to nerf in response to the mass e-tears displayed on the forums from the zerglings.

let me hijack the thread a bit :<

“my redundancy comment” :
Best way in my opinion is a redesign of WvW to a much larger maps and if possible have huge castles and resource points, players are forced to spread, and try to maintain certain points for server points a bonus stats(less people blobbing).

Its not retalition problem is a WvW concept problem.

Aeolus.3615:

Its not retalition problem is a WvW concept problem.

Point taken.

Aeolus.3615:

People are mad becouse they want to continue spam skils while target has retaliation, retaliation is here and people need to know when to stop atacking.
There are serious problems in this game yet people pay atention to minor stuff that is a l2p issue.

Wrong, we know it is there and we can see it has 15 seconds duration on boon duration builds (i.e., many guardians). You have that on a 60 second cooldown.

So 15 out of 60 seconds = 25% of our fight we are supposed to not attack you.

So that is basically like having 25% invulnerability uptime.

It is obviously a balance issue – not a L2P issue.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

Aeolus.3615:

People are mad becouse they want to continue spam skils while target has retaliation, retaliation is here and people need to know when to stop atacking.
There are serious problems in this game yet people pay atention to minor stuff that is a l2p issue.

Wrong, we know it is there and we can see it has 15 seconds duration on boon duration builds (i.e., many guardians). You have that on a 60 second cooldown.

So 15 out of 60 seconds = 25% of our fight we are supposed to not attack you.

So that is basically like having 25% invulnerability uptime.

It is obviously a balance issue – not a L2P issue.

if you’re talking guards… you can still hit, hell put a bunch of condition dmg on them until their cds and clenses are popped then go at it… if you’re a necro, even better -> corrupt boon or well .. and as a thief … steal it … mes can null field or many other ways to get it… if you’re a ranger and you’re playing tanky there’s no way his retal is going to kill you because you’re a 1v1 stud … I’d mention minefield for engie but meh there’s even a weapon sigil that does it… anyway there’s some l2p for you

otherwise I don’t really see a problem except if you’re blindly throwing in \ area of effects on larges groups of players without actually checking what boons they have (lol) or heartseeker spamming without sticking and moving

fix the way nades and flamethrower work on it for sure but otherwise stop blindly hitting keys and expecting lootbags [and crying nerf when it doesn’t work for you]

Its just quite easy to maintain in 10+ groups and punishes too many specs too much. A grenade barrage procs 40 times – thats 10-12k damage which is way too much for any skill in the game to be hitting for really.

Personally im not a fan of the mechanic or any like it despite playing a GS guardian the majority of the time so i wouldn’t be particularly bothered to see it nerfed into the dirt.
Theres many ways to fix it though. A straight damage nerf really wouldn’t help all that much as you’d have to really go overkill on the amount of damage each proc does to bring it to a level where the damage an attack that procs it 40 times takes is reasonable, at which point attacks that proc it once or twice would be completely irrelevant.
A short internal cd would go a long, long way to bringing it down to earth and seems a reasonable means of fixing it though … cant imagine thats too complicated?

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

So 15 out of 60 seconds = 25% of our fight we are supposed to not attack you.

Oh, if only Retaliation was only up 25% of the time…

I think it would help if the group-wide buff was a short duration than the self-buff.