Guild Wars 2

Since anyone can spend 100 gold to become a commander, it kinda leads to some people thinking they are in charge due to the fact that they spend the 100 gold.

So with this in mind, just having the commander status does not make you a good commander. What do you guys believe makes a good commander? I will pose a few questions and my thoughts.

1)The ability to communicate:
—A: Capslock is not cruise control for people to listen to you. In fact, it annoys some people (like me) and almost makes me want to just block you. (Edit on this: Perhaps I am too critical over this, as pointed out below by a fellow forum poster, it can be hard to see commanders well..commands when others are chatting, so without seperate chat colors, capslock can be a good way to help people see the commands.)

—B: Leading with the idea that not everyone will listen. How many of you have seen the people who start talking bad on people who aren’t following? (STUPID NOOBS, I SAID DON’T FIGHT AT SM, YOU WONDER WHY WE LOSE? IT’S BECAUSE YOU STUPID NOOBS). This is not an effective way to lead in my opinion. How about (Hey guys on SM, we could use you more over at ogre watch if you would like to come. We have about 15 assaulting the keep and could use a few more.) Or explain why SM is not a valid target at this time, without trash talking them. People are new and do not fully understand everything, so by being patient and explaining, it helps the overall realm in a positive manner.

—C: Voice chat versus actually typing (a big issue I have.) In a perfect world, everyone would join your voice chat channel and listen, but the reality is that probably 75% of the people don’t. I know this may erk you that people don’t join, but that doesn’t mean you have to ignore them. This issue I find in every game, the “vent crew” gets frustrated at the “PuGs” because the PuGs aren’t in vent. It really helps when the commander can effectively be able to chat in vent AND type in team/world chat, but I understand this can be difficult at times. However, people need to know what is going on regardless of them being in vent or not, they need commands “sometimes” just as much as the commanders need their bodies. Remember: pve-ers or new players may join wvwvw and if they run around lost, it might turn them away and you need all the soldiers you can get! (informed soliders are the best, answer questions, be patient, everyone is a “noob” at some point!)

2) Knowledge of the game: Areas in WvWvW where you can hide/place sieges, and as in 1, the ability to communicate properly to everyone and explain where and why we need to go there and wait.

—A: I know some servers really know the best spots to put siege weapons, those “exploit” spots that no one can reach you, those underground passage ways into keeps, those spots you can hide and no one can see you as they run past. I think it is important to know these things as a commander so you can effectively offer suggestions of where people should place siege when they might not know otherwise.

—B: Know about the classes. It is important to know how each class acts and what their roll is in WvWvW. Engineers, rangers, elementalists, (maybe some other classes?) are very important to help keep defenders off keep walls so they dont AOE everyone on the door. it is very important as a commander to remind people of t his (and as detailed in1) do it effectively without belittling people or getting angry. A good leader can hold their poise in any situation. (Edit: As pointed out below in a post, it can be difficult to control those in a PuG type zerg, especially without knowing what classes you have to work with. But within your own command group, knowing what classes you have to work with and what they are capabale of could help I would still say.)

—C: What siege weapons need to be put up first. Too often I see 6 see weapons thrown down when we dont have enough supplies for them all. it is important to remind everyone to build what we have first, 1 at a time, so you don’t have 6 half finished siege weapons that end up getting destroyed. Again, this information needs to be conveyed in typed chat and in a friendly non belittling manner. (Edit: As pointed out, you can’t control what everyone will do, I am always a follower of: you paid for the game, you can do what you want, but friendly reminders in main chat suggestings we focus on 1 siege at a time tends to help bring even a few people into focus maybe, I will still say.)

So, just some ideas I have…personal ideas, everyone’s ideas vary. This is not REAL war, no one is really dieing, nothing is really being lost but maybe pride (and money for repairs/siege)

So what do you guys think? Am I being too critical of what makes a good commander? Am I leaving anything out? Discusss?

Not “anyone” can just spend a hundred gold and become a commander because not everyone has 100 gold.

Maybe you have run into some caps lock commanders but on my realm they are rather quiet and still take a beating in chat.

Few commanders will be able to satisfy everyone because just about everyone has a different view on what should be done for the situation.

I feel sorry for most commanders as they have no obligation to lead anyone except maybe the guild that fronted the money to them.

There is a theory floating around that commanders are being sent to other realms to gather up the peons/zerg and run them to distant and useless destinations and away from where the other realm wants to attack.

OP I understand what you are attempting to do with this post but even if a commander knows when to put down siege and where, it isn’t the commanders responsibility to make sure you or any one else does it. It won’t stop people from using up supplies for their own siege or re-inforcing that damaged wall when the Keep needs upgrades.

While a good Commander may have a decent idea what each class is capable of, he won’t likely have that option to pick and choose who follows him around.

The Commander has the ability to form groups larger than 5.
The Commander has the icon which is displayed on the map.

These two strengths should be utilized to max the impact they have on the rest of the map.

Communication>>>>Everything else.

Communication really is key.

Today there were two commanders in a borderlands, followed by about 25 people, and the only thing either of them said in /t or /m was “let’s try another border now”. That’s it. I followed them to the next borderland and joined what i thought was a commander’s squad. It wasn’t a squad. The commander had a party. When I asked why he was in a party and not in a squad he said something about it being easier to control in case situations change. The irony is that that commander was mentioned in Lion’s Arch a couple of hours earlier as one of the “good ones”.

On the other hand, a couple of nights ago there was no commander for quite a few hours and the whole map was being run by four people. Three were in and around keeps with small groups, upgrading them, setting up siege equipment, holding supply camps, and spotting for the fourth group which was taking keeps. It all worked flawlessly… until a commander showed up and, everything fell apart without him even saying a word because following the Silent Blue Dorito to take useless things was more important that defending what we had spent days building.

There is a theory floating around that commanders are being sent to other realms to gather up the peons/zerg and run them to distant and useless destinations and away from where the other realm wants to attack.

You know what? I haven’t heard of this before, but it explains exactly what happened the other night on my server. A silent commander lifting an hours long siege and leading the zerg to the other side of the map to cap supply camps, allowing the besieged to sweep out of their keep and wipe us off the map.

Well the commander is essentially a babysitter. Generally the people following around the commander( whether he likes it or not are zerg and noob. The people building defenses on the towers/keeps are also communicating with him as to whats being attacked and how severly. There are small strike forces running around asking for support or misdirection. The commander needs to know how to wield his large force of zergs and noobs to best benefit his team as a whole. Think main body of a force. He needs to keep them productive and keep them moving. Nothing disheartens a zerg force faster than getting wiped. Tactical teams are generally more effective at setting up an invasion/defense, the commander needs to know when to bring fourth the blunt object with which to beat them about the head.

One of our top “commanders” on my server doesn’t even have the commander’s book or whatever the thing is you spend 100g on. He doesn’t need it. He has built his reputation since the first few days of launch as being someone who simply has a knack on how to read the flow of the battle and to direct people to key points. He also has a ridiculous name but it makes it easy to see him in chat which he is always using to direct our zergs. He basically turns the randoms on our server into our guild’s “militia” when ever he is on because most people know him on chat and know he brings results. He doesn’t need a blue icon to show where you he is at because all you have to do is read team chat and you will see where he is maneuvering the zerg. Then once you get in his vicinity your mini-map will be filled with green dots letting you know exactly where he is. They should have a book called “cat herder” because that is exactly what he does.

We should re-name Stonemist into Catnip, since those cats the commanders are herding always seem to go straight there at every opportunity…

A: I think you are thinking of caps lock in a wrong way, dont think of a commander yelling at you, but think of it as a tool to stand out in the chat and get peoples attention, we all know how the chat can be somedays, 10 different people telling everyone where they need to be at the same time, that + a troll or two, commanders need to be heard, but i think arenanet should give commanders some better tools, maby a commander only chattext colour? on screen orders? the system needs improvements i agree on that.

only want to comment on A, since i agree on the rest.

If the person realizes that he is a “Squad Commander” and not an “Army Commander”. It’s easy to lead a zerg into an obvious objective. What sets a commander apart is if he serves as an example for other groups to follow.

-A squad commander will defend supply depots and upgrade them.
-A squad commander will escort dolyaks if a keep is starving for it.
-A squad commander will install siege for defense of newly acquired territory.
-A squad commander will raid enemy supply camps and bring the supplies back to his keep for more siege.
-A squad commander will build siege for other people to use in key locations.
-A squad commander will lead his group for flanking enemy siege.
-A squad commander will show his group how to harass trebs, mortars, and arrow carts that are in difficult locations.

All eyes will be on you. You will literally have 10-20 players see what you’re doing and learn from it. A glory-hound commander that charges into Stonemist and takes credit for it is worthless.

Jamaz.9837:

If the person realizes that he is a “Squad Commander” and not an “Army Commander”. It’s easy to lead a zerg into an obvious objective. What sets a commander apart is if he serves as an example for other groups to follow.

-A squad commander will defend supply depots and upgrade them.
-A squad commander will escort dolyaks if a keep is starving for it.
-A squad commander will install siege for defense of newly acquired territory.
-A squad commander will raid enemy supply camps and bring the supplies back to his keep for more siege.
-A squad commander will build siege for other people to use in key locations.
-A squad commander will lead his group for flanking enemy siege.
-A squad commander will show his group how to harass trebs, mortars, and arrow carts that are in difficult locations.

All eyes will be on you. You will literally have 10-20 players see what you’re doing and learn from it. A glory-hound commander that charges into Stonemist and takes credit for it is worthless.

This whole post is perfect. Guidlines any decent Commander should be following. Kudos for your wording at the end as well bud, couldn’t have said it better myself.

I would love to quote all who’s posts I reply to..but unfortunately there is no multi-quote button. Unless I am missing something.

hyttemaier.7950:

A: I think you are thinking of caps lock in a wrong way, dont think of a commander yelling at you, but think of it as a tool to stand out in the chat and get peoples attention, we all know how the chat can be somedays, 10 different people telling everyone where they need to be at the same time, that + a troll or two, commanders need to be heard, but i think arenanet should give commanders some better tools, maby a commander only chattext colour? on screen orders? the system needs improvements i agree on that.

only want to comment on A, since i agree on the rest.

I do misinterpret the caps sometimes, I should have worded myself better, but you have the angry caps users shouting angry comments, and then the commanders who use it to be seen. But you are right, I shouldn’t talk down to the practice of all caps in the current state of the game, but it’s just so hard to shake the notion of the past of whenever I see all caps, its usually someone being something other than productive, so while I do understand that the caps can help people see them, new players, or even player ssuch as me may misintepret them or become annoyed without understanding the reason behind the caps.

I agree that it would be nice to give the commanders an option to talk in a differnt colored chat, or perhaps a commanders “channel” with a seperate color to it that appears in the main chat that only people with the commander title can chat in
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As far as knowing the best siege spots, or caverns..I guess my eyes got opened last night when…a fellow on my realm rallied people to attack a keep, but through an underground passage… I didn’t play beta, but played since release and almost exclusively in wvwvw and I had no idea there was an underground passage into a keep! So I suppose this kind of knowledge is what I am reffering to. Maybe high areas near keeps/towers to set up shop and siege from that are superior to say..other spots. —Example: There is this very large mound near a tower..someone had set up a catapult up there and zergs ran by many times without even realizing someone was up there shooting at them. -- That kind of information and tactics can really help sometimes. Whether army commander, squad commander, or what have you.
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As far as the post about squad commanders, that is excellent. I totally agree. Usually I see a few commanders out and about moving groups around and will hop into their “mini zerg” (no insult intended, just using names to reference groups of people) and ask them what their plan is and where they are going, and generally they are communicating with each other and helping to direct those who are asking in team chat “Where is the fight?…Where do you need me?…I have rams, arrow carts, trebs, where do you want them?”… No one likes wasting their blueprints, sometimes they wouldn’t mind a nice suggestion of where they are needed.
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Anyways, again – not trying to say all commanders need these things..just trying to start discussion and see what people think themselves I don’t expect everyone to know everything, I know I definitely don’t…but perhaps just trying to get things out there to discuss, and perhaps keep in mind while just out and about on the field.

It was great that this guy knew about this underground passage..granted the attack was unsuccessful, we came darn close. Heck we had a hard enough of a time getting most of our players down into the passage because they were confused and couldn’t find it :P.

1. Battlefield Awareness (if you can’t direct your forces where needed, your a hindrance)

2. The ability to big picture strategize (Being able to play the other 2 servers off each other, know when to retreat from a position etc.)

3. Be apart of a large guild (I’ve yet to see a commander that who was not in a large guild know what they were doing. The pug commanders aren’t too bad but the small guild ones are the worst cause they apply small guild tactics to their zerg of 60 people)

I’d put communication 4th, no amount of communication is going to help unless you know HOW to play as a commander first. It’s just going to make you look worse by communicating bad orders.

My 2 cents anyways.

No one listens, they are led to obey.
Commanders are useless.

Ive superseeded commanders in chat for good results a few times without spending 100g. Explaining serves nothing, if they cant figure it out themselves, they’re better off just obeying. Seriously, the term “smart gamers” is more of a myth than reality.

You just need to repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and the sheeple will fall in line. If it works in the real world, it will work in a video game.

The ability to prioritize and make the order of priorities clear to the field is also important. That is, the ability to have a general strategy and make it clear to people. This>This>If x, then This>.

“Hey guys, we’re going to be attacking and focusing on X, Y, and Z only if we have the chance to. For defense, respond to attacks at this location over this one over this one.”

A good commander understands the field, understands their advantages on both the offensive and defensive side. She then makes sure that everyone is on the same page.

OP”

—B: Leading with the idea that not everyone will listen. How many of you have seen the people who start talking bad on people who aren’t following? (STUPID NOOBS, I SAID DON’T FIGHT AT SM, YOU WONDER WHY WE LOSE? IT’S BECAUSE YOU STUPID NOOBS). This is not an effective way to lead in my opinion. How about (Hey guys on SM, we could use you more over at ogre watch if you would like to come. We have about 15 assaulting the keep and could use a few more.) Or explain why SM is not a valid target at this time, without trash talking them. People are new and do not fully understand everything, so by being patient and explaining, it helps the overall realm in a positive manner.——-

This, so much!

I honestly don’t tend to lead unless the server is looking for leadership. As many like to proclaim themselves commander, it doesn’t do the battlefield a lot of good to try to shout out the other guy (even if his tactics are flawed). It’s better to acknowledge that not everyone will listen.

When I do take command, I often break things into a North Commander and South Commander. (Or East and West if the map calls for it) In Vent, I have guys scouting the South and typically ask the South Commander to call hotspots, needs for reinforcements, weak targets, etc.

Vice-Versa with the North Commander, if I’m in the South. We’ll then take turns establishing objectives, mounting squads, etc. etc. Sometimes someone will come in and try to out-shout me, at that point, I let others decide whom they wish to continue following. I won’t speak directly to them unless necessary, allowing others to advocate and therefore solidifying our forces instead of dividing them.

OR if another commander is currently leading and another comes to attempt to divide our forces, I will speak for that commander towards the usurper. Better to have a unified force with moderate skill then a broken force with expert skill. The commander should not be focused on keeping unity, he has enough duties with coordinating individuals, guilds, ‘zergs,’ siege equipment, etc. etc.

ptitminou.6489:

No one listens, they are led to obey.
Commanders are useless.

Ive superseeded commanders in chat for good results a few times without spending 100g. Explaining serves nothing, if they cant figure it out themselves, they’re better off just obeying. Seriously, the term “smart gamers” is more of a myth than reality.

You just need to repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and the sheeple will fall in line. If it works in the real world, it will work in a video game.

You’re the worst kind of commander. You believe yourself better than everyone else. It doesn’t matter how smart you think you are if you are too much of an elitist to even consider the perfectly valid – possibly even opposing ideas – of those you’re supposedly leading. No one is perfect and makes ONLY good decisions, and if you are unwilling to see validity in the ideas and choices of others, you’re setting yourself up to inevitably fail. No matter how long your streak of good choices and leading has lasted, there will always be that one time when it comes to an end. Putting yourself on the same level as your peers won’t always prevent failure, but it’ll sure as hell keep it from happening as often as it otherwise would.

In the end, this is still a game. We are playing to have fun, and it is more fun to win. That high on winning won’t last forever and there will come a point where it’s just more satisfying to say “kitten that guy, I’m going to do things my way.” You’re that guy.

if someone isn’t much good with leadership, it’s probably much better for everyone involved if they find what they are good at and play to it. everyone involved reaps rewards for a win on any scale, be it overall score or a brilliant tower siege. the “blue dorito (LOL)” is no more important than the rest of the ones who are serving with them, tho the commander may be more visible. wins are not made by one person calling plays, but by many people working in unison.

When I lead, I will commonly listen to reports and make decisions based on those. I will not direct everyone my way, but rather encourage which way seems the most wise and tactical.

The commander status at this point is a complete joke, all it says to me is you’ve grinded a lot of gold. It’s a PvE title, nothing more. I know players who don’t care to lead, they just want to be special. Why this costs gold I don’t know, it should have been given via achievements and maybe, 50 gold to add onto it so not everyone has it.

Though the commander perk is a good idea in itself, it rarely has a place in general WvW. The idea of most PuG’s following someone bothers most, and is best reserved for guilds. They are part of a structured environment, with a clear picture of who is in charge. In WvW, you will find it nearly impossible for everyone to follow you as everyone themselves wants to be a leader. WvW in general has too many chiefs, and not enough indians. Take a look at some of the bigger, well structured guilds. I will use Green Fire(GF) on the Far Shiverpeaks server as an example. They move like machines. Rarely, if ever, have I seen one travel alone, or NOT move in complete sync with one another. If their commander says jump, they are already in the air before he finishes the word. It takes discipline to follow someone; and even more discipline to lead someone. For the most part, the only reason people have a problem with a Commander on their map is that they do not share the same views(or believe the commander is not making the decision that he/she feels should be made). It doesn’t matter what you feel should be done. If you want a commander, then follow the commander. If not, don’t complain because there are none you “agree” with.

“He who has never learned to obey cannot be a good commander.” -Aristotle

Well, that is a thing. On my server I know 2 guys who just donated to get the 100g. They were like ones of early commanders, they both thought that they, having the badge now, will lead everyone to glorious victory, and they both couldn’t do anything. One couldn’t understand tactics at all and the other raged on people for not doing things he wanted.

In the end, commander badge is not a toy, it’s big responsibility. And I think, people will remember commander who lead better than others, and they will know if that one should or should not be trusted.

In my opinion, commander’s job is to organize people who are not organized. Because big guilds do not need badges to lead them, and even smaller guilds that are organized usually have their own TS and run as an organized groups. They may chose to join commander or not. But main aim of commander are people who are alone, do not have guilds or just don’t sure what to do. Those will see commander’s mark and those are most likely to follow it. At the same time, those people are the hardest to use tactics with. Some don’t even read the chat where commander tells what needs to be done, they just run after the bug blue mark (believe me, I checked). Not all of them, not most of them even, but some. But those are the people that commander should take and lead while coordinating with raid from organized big guilds.

You know, good thing about the whole thing is that commander mark really doesn’t give you any superpowers automatically. You spend 100g, but you don’t turn into tactical genius. And if commander is not good enough, people will criticize him and after few times he will become better or stop trying to lead at all.

I will use Green Fire(GF) on the Far Shiverpeaks server as an example. They move like machines. Rarely, if ever, have I seen one travel alone, or NOT move in complete sync with one another. If their commander says jump, they are already in the air before he finishes the word.

Ah, thanks for using us as an example. We do have strict coordination, and make full use of voice-chat. And that is the reason GF itself doesn’t need the commander badge. Everyone knows who the current raid-leader is, and they follow him and his commands.
The thing is, GF still bought commander books, and gave it to people inside the guild for the very purpose of gathering non-GF people on the map and leading them with their raid or as a separate raid with the coordination with the GF raid. PuGs are usually in a majority on the map, so they are a major force.

Kirn would be one of the GF commanders I was referring to in my previous post. I am active duty military, and have been for 10 years. This guild is the closest thing I’ve seen to a military unit in a game yet. Hats off to the GF commanders; and moreso to the troops they lead.

EDIT: In most servers, your comment about the PuG’s being a majority of the force would be true. But, let’s be honest. Whatever BL you choose to be on is comprised of about 70% GF at the time. We find ourselves saying “Nice, GF just showed up to help us defend this tower” moreso than “Nice, here comes a GF commander with a PuG to help us defend this tower”.

Malpractis.4653:

EDIT: In most servers, your comment about the PuG’s being a majority of the force would be true. But, let’s be honest. Whatever BL you choose to be on is comprised of about 70% GF at the time. We find ourselves saying “Nice, GF just showed up to help us defend this tower” moreso than “Nice, here comes a GF commander with a PuG to help us defend this tower”.

Well, saying ‘GF commander with a PuG’ would not be a good thing to say and may offend some guildless people following me, so I am glad it’s not being said.
But what you say is also not completely true. On any given map we got… what are the max numbers for people from one server on the map? 166 or 200? Well, even if it’s 166. On days when we have obligatory WvW events we usually have 30+ people on the map, sometimes more, depends on how many managed to get through the queue. There are never more GFs on map than there are other people. And those other are divided into pugs and organized groups, as I said. And in the end, during our prime time, I usually got a bit (or a lot sometimes) more people on me than we have in GF raid.
GF are organized better, naturally, with voice-chat and all, so they can fight better as a whole, and when they rescue some tower, people there just see a big group all with the same tags, so they say that GF saved them. But in turn it’s GF-raid leader who asks if my side of the map okay or if I got enough people following me to defend or retake some or the other tower. It just happens in voice chat, so people don’t see it.
For now, my best experience was taking west keep, and that was done by combining GF a pug forces. And if was truly an epic siege too, with us holding our position in front of central inner gates, repelling attacks from all sides. And that keep would not be taken by GF or by pug forces alone…

But anyways, I think I wandered a bit off-topic here. Commander should try to organize zerg on himself, but he should aim to coordinate with other major powers AND to try to improve organization inside the zerg. Now that I think about it, if commander is good with tactics, many people will pick up on things he’s doing and, when he’s not around, use the same tactics themselves. And it all pretty much goes back to commanders ability to communicate.