Guild Wars 2

I personally don’t love either map.

The basic design of Alpine was pretty linear, simple, and open. Meaning, for the most part you were able to travel from North & South or East & West with basically nothing except another player getting in your way.

The design of the Desert map brought in new “barricades” that hinder players from moving, mostly, North and South. You must break through them, and as a solo-roamer or small group, this takes a while. Otherwise you’re basically forced through sentry points that will mark you. However, it is moving East and West on this map that is vastly different than Alpine. Again, in Alpine you had nothing really to bar your movement, but in the Desert there are massive vertical cliffs (especially on the east side) that you must navigate. It may not look far, but these areas add in a lot of S-turns, on top of “possibly” needing to go through a barricade again, or around it, depending on your heading. These narrow passes could add flavor to some fights, and are used as “choke-points” but most groups simply avoid them and will pass through the open Oasis before returning to the more rigorous terrain and an objective.

There was a fine-line I think where verticality was acceptable. If we rated Alpine and its relatively level sloping hills as a 1, then the Desert could be a 3. So, more or less something between the two would be acceptable as terrain-“flavor.” Anything that doesn’t double or triple the time it takes to go across a map could potentially be alright.

Then there is all the additional PvE-nonsense added in. We shouldn’t even go there but essentially a group of 5 players (or less) could do a meta event just like in PvE and open up all the enemy tower/keep gates and start walking in as they please 5-10 minutes later. Basically WvW players tend to lose money (at least commanders and other dedicated people) buying and placing siege in these locations to fight other large groups. There really is no great income source in WvW. Then here is this meta-event that shoots the gates wide open and those handful of people walk in and break everything and cap the tower before you realize where they are.

WvW players don’t want to run around maps completing meta-events and letting the PvE-content fight the war. They don’t want one-sided buffs (No Fall Damage for instance). They don’t even want to scrap over said meta-event because 2 sides always lose (if it happens at all) and then poof; gimmicks.

They want a level playing field on the map 100% of the time where player skill is the main, sometimes only, factor that determines an even-numbered fight. (Obviously not all fights are closely numbered) You want stealth? Here is your mesmer, engineer, and your thief; not a mini-asuran sandstorm creation even if it is cool. I think a lot f us would agree the ideas are cool, the map looks cool, but it has too much gimmick and too many roadblocks.

Just the right amount of open spaces and well designed chokes. Honestly wish the desert BLs were more desert like above the fire keep and with a similar shape, size, and layout of the alpine BLs. I am just so excited to feel back at home in alpine. Tell ya something I wish the game would do though. Is have the desert BL (shaped like I mentioned above), the alpine BL, and a third new BL so that there wouldn’t be any copies. I am so excited for those field, keep, and Garry fights though! I can’t wait!

Sich.7103:

Yes we where able to control alpine with 5 active people. We had generally some other people running around but who don’t speak with anyone.
But eb was always called when we had too much ennemy on the map, and people joined the Alpine map because they know that we are defending, and that if we hold the map we can have the WP.
Now that we can’t have the WP and that the tower have no tactical advantage at all, no one care about jumping on BL to defend something. All is useless on the DBL, except PPT structures have no value at all.

PS : We where on T3 EU at this time. Off peak time was quiet and few people was able to do the job. But at least there where job to do, and this mean something. With all auto or no WP available there no point to have T0 or T3.

Are you saying that 5 people scouted and called in reinforcements from EBG when needed or that 5 people handled defense on their own? If it’s the former, that seems totally plausible (on any map). I really miss the days where I could count on having a handful of folks during the off-hours.

May I ask if you would like the Desert maps if the WP system was reverted? I think that’s productive feedback, at least. What are some of the other things you disliked besides the WP and Auto-Upgrades.

The new map could be playable yes.
– But at least we need the old WP system (WP for everyone and only at T3).
– Nerf or better, remove the activator
– I don’t like the shield gen… But why not if people want that
– Sad to see that the tower have no tactical value, they don’t even block the dolyak who go to rampart if you control the north tower
– The keep are really too big, but with more people we can do something.
– I would really like to the see the old upgrade system, maybe just with karma and/or badge. But the cost was fine for me, far less that the new guild upgrade. And the ability to choose your “path” was really interesting. Maybe just add few protection (only the guild who claim can start upgrade, counter claim with a poll , etc).
– remove the shrine

I don’t like the map, really, but at least it’s something new… The core issue are all the mechanics they have change, the pirate ship meta, the stab issue. And the new map need really more player, they need to remove at least 2 or 3 tiers in EU to concentrate people.
This will not change the tactical issue on the new map (tower useless, keep too big), but will at least make the game will involve more players and not pve or automatic stuff.

Stand The Wall.6987:

underwater bay battles
see each side flounder and panic when they dont know what their skills do
praise be to ah-lawl

lol

I don’t think it was always like this, but I noticed recently that the side camp Yaks no longer run to Rampart if the northern tower isn’t allied. Probably a change for the better.

The old upgrade system is not appealing to me at all, but there’s probably some middle ground that can be found here. It’s already been changed once since HoT dropped so I’m sure it can be changed again. What do you think about changing the guild claim system to resemble the old upgrades? That way, you get the baseline things like walls and gates, but get to choose from the passive guild bonuses as an active component. I imagine it would culminate in getting an Emergency WP which, imo, is far more exciting a tool.

Can you expound on why you want to remove shrines? I don’t think I’ve heard much on them besides passing complaints. I personally like them as roaming hotspots (the RI is much shorter) that can do cool things but won’t make or break an assault. Since they’re so easy to flip and don’t even pop swords when attacked, I’m not really worried about the abilities attached to them.

Yeah why not merge structure upgrade and guild upgrade.
But then you need to allow small guild to claim and not only big guild. With the cost of the guild hall all small guild have been killed.
It’s WvW, not GvG… You are forced to be in a big guild if you want to be able to give good advantage to your team. At least before HoT every scout was able to have is personnal guild and activate bonus on the keep.
I prefer to unlock claiming with WvW rank. Then alt/spy account need to upgrade the account to be able to claim the keep. And then yes, merge guild upgrade and structure upgrade.
If no one care about the structure it will not upgrade. If someone want to manage the structure, then he can choose how to upgrade it. And the best players can give the best bonus. But this should really be linked to players, not to guild. There is no reason that you need to farm pve with a big guild to be able to add bonus in WvW.
And ofc, add the unclaim poll to be able to unlock something that has been claimed by someone who is blocking the upgrade.
But the bonus should be more wall / door / canon / aura / real WP… Not activator.

Then once you claim something, you can activate the upgrade. Each upgrade need some other (like fortified gate need reinforced). Each upgrade can be started alone. Upgrade are free, but need time and supply. Doly bring supply in the keep, it’s your job to take care if you can start the upgrade or not.

At least this will allow to use the WvW bonus point, so much people have countless free point.

About the shrine yeah, they can stay, but I don’t like the fact that they give pve advantage. The fire/wind turret are just annoying, the first shrine is useless. I mean don’t give advantage at all… Maybe give small PPT, and keep the swiftness bonus. This could be fine.

Alpine borderland was:
1. simpler & easier to learn
2. smaller & faster to travel = less time spent on traveling, more time spent on fighting and having fun
3. every tower had strategical meaning e.g. you could built a treb on it to attack nearest keep
4. supply camps were located closer to the other objectives, shorter distance for supply runs
5. Alpine borderland lacks gimmicks, which just detract from game play, like shrines, jumping pads, wind blowing you off the bridges, auto fire cannons etc.
6. The keeps and towers were much smaller, making them easier to scout
7. The original Alpine borderland had a lake. Underwater combat, yeah!

And last, but not least: the Alpine borderland felt more like home, more like a location you would want to fight for. Maybe because it had forest, meadows, lake, hills and snow and buildings also looked more normal instead of the alien design of earth keep of desert borderland.

Sviel.7493:

At any rate, were you able to defend all of Alpine with just 5 people?

5 people could easily control and scout entire Alpine with minimal movement, requesting reinforcements in time.

On Desert you need 5 people just to scout undercroft and you will probably still miss the 20 people already on the lord.

The size difference and layout is actually quite massive.

The jumping puzzle.

Well hopefully there will be more fights on the bl because I know I will fall asleep if I run around Alpine BL with the same amount of fights pre HOT since the borderlands were deserted then too.

Sviel.7493:

Jana.6831:

You’re wrong on this.
We had hour long fights around objectives, sometimes even for days because everything could be countered. Bay couldn’t counter Briar though – that was the only case.
The ABLS were a lot more strategical than DBL not only when it comes to siege, also camps.

Listen to yourself. Carefully.

Jana.6831:

You’re wrong on this.
We had hour long fights around objectives, sometimes even for days because everything could be countered. Bay couldn’t counter Briar though – that was the only case.
The ABLS were a lot more strategical than DBL not only when it comes to siege, also camps.

You had fights because they were the only way to defend. The walls were barely an obstacle—especially since getting them to fortify is nigh impossible under pressure. The fights were not because everything could be countered but because there was no other choice. Also, people like fights. Every encounter on Alpine was just a fight with a few walls for scenery. It was great for about 3 hours when everyone had the maps queued and then it was awful depending on who had the most pop at the moment.

Now, I don’t want to diminish fights. No matter what happens, fights are going to be the best way to defend because they don’t cost supply and don’t incur supply damage. However, since even in prime time the home team is potentially outnumbered 2:1, fights should not be the only way to defend. To be clear, fights should be the only way to defend indefinitely, but not the only way to defend at all. A good server should bring enough people that it can fight and focus on whichever part of its map needs to recover supply from holding out until the fight can happen. This has the added bonus of letting off-hours players hold out better against the Karma Train.

Can you expound on how Alpine had more tactical depth in terms of siege/camps? I’m not sure what you mean by the first and have no idea what you mean by the second, so I don’t want to make assumptions.

On multiple occasions I held hills by myself against groups of 20-30. I would use a good number of siege disablers and mortars/counter siege to destroy anything they had built or send them flying off the cliff.

I used to love going to an enemy bl and ninja’ing hills and then upgrading it to get its wp. I would get roaming fights for hours from people trying to cut off camps or try to take the keep back.
When they did call in the map blob I’d send out word to our own commanders that they could come join in the fight or go bust one of their other way points while they are distracted.

Dawdler.8521:

Sviel.7493:

At any rate, were you able to defend all of Alpine with just 5 people?

5 people could easily control and scout entire Alpine with minimal movement, requesting reinforcements in time.

On Desert you need 5 people just to scout undercroft and you will probably still miss the 20 people already on the lord.

The size difference and layout is actually quite massive.

I don’t think such exaggeration is helpful.

Puck

On multiple occasions I held hills by myself against groups of 20-30. I would use a good number of siege disablers and mortars/counter siege to destroy anything they had built or send them flying off the cliff.

I used to love going to an enemy bl and ninja’ing hills and then upgrading it to get its wp. I would get roaming fights for hours from people trying to cut off camps or try to take the keep back.
When they did call in the map blob I’d send out word to our own commanders that they could come join in the fight or go bust one of their other way points while they are distracted.

Those 20-30 people couldn’t have had half a brain between them ._.

Had they been on the switch back they’d have been safe from ACs and mortars and you would have had to jump out of the walls to siege disable—but you wouldn’t have been able to get all the catas at once. Also, being knocked back there is a much smaller drop that is non-lethal. Once through outer, the rest would be cake.

But I dunno, maybe you’re superman. If I recall, you weren’t in a boondocks tier, but ninja’ing Hills as a roamer really shouldn’t happen.

Easier to navigate, easier to scout (checking the current BL keeps is a massive pain), more areas for open field fights and most towers were important to hold.

Also, I knew I could almost always find a good skirmish fight if the defending map had a WP in hills or bay since it basically allowed three server spawns to be very close to each other.

Sviel.7493:

Dawdler.8521:

Sviel.7493:

At any rate, were you able to defend all of Alpine with just 5 people?

5 people could easily control and scout entire Alpine with minimal movement, requesting reinforcements in time.

On Desert you need 5 people just to scout undercroft and you will probably still miss the 20 people already on the lord.

The size difference and layout is actually quite massive.

I don’t think such exaggeration is helpful.

Puck

On multiple occasions I held hills by myself against groups of 20-30. I would use a good number of siege disablers and mortars/counter siege to destroy anything they had built or send them flying off the cliff.

I used to love going to an enemy bl and ninja’ing hills and then upgrading it to get its wp. I would get roaming fights for hours from people trying to cut off camps or try to take the keep back.
When they did call in the map blob I’d send out word to our own commanders that they could come join in the fight or go bust one of their other way points while they are distracted.

Those 20-30 people couldn’t have had half a brain between them ._.

Had they been on the switch back they’d have been safe from ACs and mortars and you would have had to jump out of the walls to siege disable—but you wouldn’t have been able to get all the catas at once. Also, being knocked back there is a much smaller drop that is non-lethal. Once through outer, the rest would be cake.

But I dunno, maybe you’re superman. If I recall, you weren’t in a boondocks tier, but ninja’ing Hills as a roamer really shouldn’t happen.

Usually when it was a large group like that it’s generous to say they had half a brain between them. It was rarely a competent guild group, they were out looking for fights. More often it was the pug tag who went straight for the easy spot because pugs are dumb and it takes them 20 minutes to walk to the siege sight and put their supply into it.
But the switchback could usually be hit by the 5 shot on the mortars, if they really had it tucked against the wall and I wasn’t getting enough hits on it I could still stealth disable over and over again to annoy the hell out of them.
But I’m gonna go with I’m Superman.

Sich.7103:

- Scout can control how to upgrade the keep
– No sentry to give information about ennemy move > players need to roam on the map and to talk each other
– You have to make choice between upgrading or storing supply or building siege
– More supply limit in the keep
– No stupid guild upgrade who are for pve and not for pvp
– more compact
– more big area to fight and less choc point
– Keep are easier and not so big, and look like keep
– Tower can treb keep > tower have tactical value
– WP only at T3 and for everyone who is able to upgrade the keep.
– WP is hard to get, then people want to defend it, and ennemy want to destroy it.
– WP on the home BL help to defend the map
– Easy way to go from one keep to another, no maze
– no kittening central event

I would expect most of the HOT changes will be imported into the old maps, Otherwise why would it take so long to load them back up? Expect to see dragon banners, and other guild upgrades, sentry’s reporting to the map, and possibly even waypoint changes (bay/hills wp at T1 controlled by enemy’s only). Might as well expect these things to happen now, because the likelihood is very high.

Just my opinion.

Sviel.7493:

I don’t think such exaggeration is helpful.

Where was the exaggeration? No, seriously, please do tell. This is the case when we compare the borders.

Hills for example. On Alpine you can stand in one place and see the north door, cata spot, central inner, the path to north inner and only have to move like 10m to see the south door (where you still have clear view on cata spot and the inner central area).

Hills on Desert you can see south inner and south outer, that’s about’s about. Everything else is hidden in a maze which force you to run around to look over everything. and the distances are pretty far (if you are at south gate, you probably have to run longer than from SW tower to hills on Alpine just to look at the north gate – and that’s not counting north inner gate).

Dont even get me started on undercroft vs bay. On bay you could just run from north gate straight south and you will check all the doors, all the walls, and the lords room along the way. Undercroft… yeah… kitten that kitten.

There are 4 breakable walls and 3 gates on Undercroft. Running straight from the south gate to the north gate, you can check all of the walls and 2 of the gates without detour, plus the inner walls/gates. In the unlikely event that enemies are using the east gate (I’ve seen this happen exactly once), you barely have to detour from the straight path to check it. It doesn’t take even as long as running the full crescent around Bay to check all the outers, not to mention the inners.

Palace is much the same. You can run in a straight line from the south gate to the north gate and check all of the outers. You can make a slight detour to check the east gate in the unlikely event that it’kitten. The inner is similarly simple. This one does take a little longer than Hills, but it isn’t a huge difference.

Also, with sentries, it’s usually pretty obvious where a group is setting up and you have advance notice to be on the lookout for them. I was worried about this when HoT first dropped but have since found it to be a non-issue.

Sviel.7493:

There are 4 breakable walls and 3 gates on Undercroft. Running straight from the south gate to the north gate, you can check all of the walls and 2 of the gates without detour, plus the inner walls/gates. In the unlikely event that enemies are using the east gate (I’ve seen this happen exactly once), you barely have to detour from the straight path to check it. It doesn’t take even as long as running the full crescent around Bay to check all the outers, not to mention the inners

Uhm…

There are 5 gates and 8 breakable walls (walls counted off the top of my head, more or less) on undercroft.

If you run straight south from the north gate, you will not see the lord room, you have to run to the east gate to actually see it, you wont see one of the walls and you have to run all the way down to see the actual gate.

You really cant get past the fact its a maze. It doesnt even matter how many gates and wall it has – bay had 6 gates and 6ish breakable walls (again, off the top of my head). Its the layout of the keep that matter.

Palace is definetly not a straight line – if you run straight from south to north, you wont see the west gate (stuff in the way), you wont see lords, you wont see south inner, you wont see north inner and again you have to go all the way up to the north outer gate to see it. Hell you wont even see SW cata spot, because its hidden behind a hillside.

If you want an entire border layout comparison btw, I made it long ago:

I definitely want the Alpine maps back – and will morn the loss of artwork in the Desert BLs and possibly some of the features – but think the game needs the change. Some of the changes are structural/environment, some of them are game play.

Here’s why.

Structural:
1) Distance. I think other people in this thread have covered it adequately.
2) Complexity of fortifications – when it takes you three minutes to figure out how to get to the lords room of your keep, you have a problem.
3) PvE distractions – WvW should be oriented towards creating a “box” within which guilds and Pugs from different servers can compete at a large scale. Things which distract from that won’t help it.
4) Tactical importance of fortifications and camps – what locations you control is pretty irrelevant except as it contributes to PPT – there is no strategy. Zergs are pretty much reduced to giant havoc groups outside of EB.

Other stuff which happened – CC and similar rebalancing that took place – there needed to be some, but with the new DBL’s, I think the baby went out with the bath water. Those need to be evaluated (as I’m sure they are) and modified. I recommend Anet Developers be mindful of earlier complaints about Alpine maps and WvW when bringing them back – it will be helpful.

Other things people complain about I think (e.g. waypoints everywhere, shrine speed boosts) were actually sops to the fact that there was some awareness that the sheer size of the maps was going to be an issue.

Some things that I would keep (and there’s a fair amount that is quite good…)

1) Tougher fortifications
2) Supply/fortification improvement system (with caveats…) – the old method of upgrade which required money out of the pocket of players I think was flawed. I’m comfortable with the current supply system. I would drop waypoints on towers, and add them to keeps only at the highest tiers. Adding back some flexibility in how upgrades are applied would be good.
3) New siege
4) War points for player spikes (don’t tie it to bloodlust).
5) Shrines (replace ruins? Tie them to features which strengthen keeps or towers in specific ways?)
6) Artwork – if some of the magnificent visual magic done on the DBL’s was worked on the Alpine maps, I certainly wouldn’t mind.
7) Tougher NPC defenders/tougher fortifications – that did help address complaints on the old maps about fortifications being too weak to defend.

Tangential note: – mostly in fun – And of course, I’d love to see gliding. Borlis Air Force, or bust

Dawdler.8521:

Uhm…

There are 5 gates and 8 breakable walls (walls counted off the top of my head, more or less) on undercroft.

If you run straight south from the north gate, you will not see the lord room, you have to run to the east gate to actually see it, you wont see one of the walls and you have to run all the way down to see the actual gate.

You really cant get past the fact its a maze. It doesnt even matter how many gates and wall it has – bay had 6 gates and 6ish breakable walls (again, off the top of my head). Its the layout of the keep that matter.

Palace is definetly not a straight line – if you run straight from south to north, you wont see the west gate (stuff in the way), you wont see lords, you wont see south inner, you wont see north inner and again you have to go all the way up to the north outer gate to see it. Hell you wont even see SW cata spot, because its hidden behind a hillside.

If you want an entire border layout comparison btw, I made it long ago:

I was referring to outer walls/gates. I actually defend things so I rarely arrive after outer has already been breached, but I should have specified as such—sorry. For that same reason, I’m not super concerned about checking the lord’s room unless inner has actually been breached at some point. The only time you need to go there is if inner is open (at which point it is obvious) or if inner was opened and a mesmer may be inside.

I’ll log on real quick (or after patching, apparently) and take screenshots of all the walls, assuming I have access to the sidekeeps. In the meantime, please note that I said you have to detour from the straight line to check the side gates, though it is only a few seconds.

Sungtaro.6493:

Well hopefully there will be more fights on the bl because I know I will fall asleep if I run around Alpine BL with the same amount of fights pre HOT since the borderlands were deserted then too.

Agreed. People think of alpine BL circa 2013 not pre hot after the stability changes…. While the DBls have many issues, placing blame on them and not the other HOT changes (which will undoubtably come with ABLs) for drastic fall off wvw population is short sighted IMHO. In fact, stab changes were even worse for the mode than HOT…..

I can’t seem to get images to show up, for some reason, but have some links.

Airkeep All Outers

North Gate: http://puu.sh/o18I7/05e741288e.jpg

Northwest Wall: http://puu.sh/o19su/0b55c130cf.jpg

North Wall: http://puu.sh/o19tw/5f1366c0a4.jpg

West Gate: http://puu.sh/o19uf/64c8a284fc.jpg

South Wall: http://puu.sh/o19uN/f813323260.jpg

South Gate: http://puu.sh/o19wD/a95768ee6e.jpg

Firekeep All Outers

Northwest Wall: http://puu.sh/o19xU/a5a5114ddb.jpg

North Gate: http://puu.sh/o19AL/aa1099c945.jpg

Northeast Wall: http://puu.sh/o19AY/4508621dda.jpg

East Northeast Wall: http://puu.sh/o19BS/87b50c7d32.jpg

East Gate: http://puu.sh/o19CL/71f4c13ae4.jpg

East Southeast Wall: http://puu.sh/o19Dn/39e1b8e863.jpg

Southeast Wall: http://puu.sh/o19E4/2b57182fed.jpg

South Gate: http://puu.sh/o19Fl/f13cc4e161.jpg

Southwest Wall: http://puu.sh/o19FY/be71b0a0eb.jpg

Both run-throughs were actually quicker than I remembered. Also, at Airkeep, I was able to see the gate from my path without taking a detour.

It’s not that the Alpine BL’s are the greatest thing in the world. They’re just better than the Desert BL’s.

1. DBL is too big, which means you spend more time traveling and less time fighting.
2. convoluted layout, like a maze (more travel, less fight).
3. large number of cliffs/walls makes it harder to see enemy groups to begin with (more search, less fight).
4. choke points is a very bad combo with the weak-stability/pirate-ship meta. Groups are already hesitant to push in the open field, much less a choke point (more time staring at each other, less time fighting).
5. Tower positioning has no strategic value beyond PPT (less incentive to capture, so less incentive to fight over)
6. WP’s are too easy to get. WP’s used to be precious & ppl would rush to defend them.
7. Annoying mechanics, like the pop-up rock walls and barricades that hinder solo roamers (both of these make traveling feel even more arduous)
8. Annoy door-breaking event in the center. This makes it easier for groups to make sneaky captures (once again, avoiding fights)
———————————————————-

In fairness to Anet, DBL had some good ideas worth keeping:
1. Desert theme was visually very pretty, and good to have as a change of pace.
2. towers having their own interesting visual “flavor” (academy/necropolis)
3. tougher lords/npc’s
4. Shrines are kind of cool. don’t mind those mechanics
5. Dolyak buffs for escorters, new dolyak skins (I also like the old skins, but it’s fresh)
6. Sentry buffs to paint enemies
7. upgrades that don’t cost gold. It used to be a big money drain.

One of the appeals not listed is that Alpine is visually cleaner and more attractive. The structures are not decrepit and broken. They are something you’d actually want to own and defend. Heck, if the Desert map was glaciers in the north, green pastures and grass on the south, and some water in mid, it would have been far better received. Though it would still have the same layout issues and contrived traffic patterns annoyingly designed to slow you down.

Jr. you need to take a breath in between posting. Alpine was/is a superior design which allowed for faster pacing, more active combat, and more map politics.

Lesser complaints:

-I’ve read that the map design is basically trying to ensure that players leave a group on each BL instead of each server owning their own entire BL. This makes it feel less like a “home” and less worth defending for your turf. While trying to split zergs up is an admirable goal, there are some people who like LARGE-scale group fighting. That’s the reason they’re in WvW in the first place instead of PvP.

-I’m probably alone in this, but I don’t like the random hologram gathering nodes in the towers/keeps. Gathering isn’t fun. You just stand in front of a node (that doesn’t even look like the item you’re collecting) and press ‘F’. Now every time we cap something, we have to pause while waiting for 80% of the group to do this silly process. imo, let’s get moving so we can find some more fights.

DeWolfe.2174:

One of the appeals not listed is that Alpine is visually cleaner and more attractive. The structures are not decrepit and broken. They are something you’d actually want to own and defend. Heck, if the Desert map was glaciers in the north, green pastures and grass on the south, and some water in mid, it would have been far better received. Though it would still have the same layout issues and contrived traffic patterns annoyingly designed to slow you down.

Jr. you need to take a breath in between posting. Alpine was/is a superior design which allowed for faster pacing, more active combat, and more map politics.

You are entitled to your opinions, but I do not have to accept them as fact.

The cat room.
15chars

Being able to find an enemy blob that was sieging a keep, easier/simple map traversal and layout, simplistic lord design which enabled small groups to take objectives quickly and focus on using important skills and cooldowns to kill other players rather than being chain-CC’ed forever by an NPC.

Most notably, a more level terrain area where fighting could be done and movement patterns would be impossible to predict or track without active scouting efforts, rather than having players be forced into an unnecessary amount of chokes guarded/gated behind NPC scouts revealing map positions and pointless barriers/movement impediments.

Raolin Soulherder.3195:

-I’m probably alone in this, but I don’t like the random hologram gathering nodes in the towers/keeps. Gathering isn’t fun. You just stand in front of a node (that doesn’t even look like the item you’re collecting) and press ‘F’. Now every time we cap something, we have to pause while waiting for 80% of the group to do this silly process. imo, let’s get moving so we can find some more fights.

I once came past a warrior and ranger fighting, the ranger was about to die and at 30% health he must’ve seen the F and started to chop some wood.
It was very funny but that’s basically one of the PvE elements most of us don’t like too much.
And also the herbs and vegetables you farm from them take away a huge chunk of the gold costs for food.
Also: We don’t farm the nodes after capping something. If you’re the commander just run away, your people will follow.

Durzlla.6295:

So I was just wondering why you, actual WvWers, like the Alpine Borderlands so much more than the Desert Borderland.

No one wants the Alpine back really. They got stale, but what people really want is:

• Swift Direct, Easy Travel, which the Alpine provided and the Deseret did not.

• They don’t want a map full of Gimmicks. WvW for most intents is more a War Zone not a Theme Park. There does not need to be any distractions there to keep us entertained. Thus the Alpine was simple and direct, the Desert is not.

• Distinct Wall Lines for the Buildings. The Alpine map made it easy to know exactly where the walls where, and the layout could be seen from the Mini-Map. The Desert has this convoluted set up where it’s not all walls, and you can’t see the distinct outline from the Mini-Map.

So it’s not that anyone wants the Alpine back, it’s that the Desert fails to preform so badly they would rather go back to the Alpine then continue to deal with the Desert.

Truth is, I would rather they fix the Desert, and learn how to do it right, so they can make more maps.

I just want to be able to find the champ spider and high five BL Seige Razor again, that guy has been part time for 6 months and is extremely bored and underutilized.

HazyDaisy.4107:

I just want to be able to find the champ spider and high five BL Seige Razor again, that guy has been part time for 6 months and is extremely bored and underutilized.

[STRM] saying goodbye to champ spider ;-(
https://youtu.be/7ZIo18tPcH4

Why people like the old bl? Alpine borderlands is well crafted. It has much depth for the experienced but at the same time its layout is simple enough for the novice. The environment itself is relaxing too when it’s a dead night with just enough side pve to be entertaining for a roamer.

I’m worried that they will try to “improve” the Alpine borderlands EotM style.

For me it was more fun because it was more flat and it was faster to run back if i died now in desert it just feels like a chore to get back to a fight its 90% of running 10 % fighting

Deniara Devious.3948:

Alpine borderland was:
1. simpler & easier to learn

>Simpler yes and flawed design

2. smaller & faster to travel = less time spent on traveling, more time spent on fighting and having fun

>It has been proven there really is no difference between DBL’s and ABL’s as far as travel.

3. every tower had strategical meaning e.g. you could built a treb on it to attack nearest keep

>No – sorry they didn’t. Same with on the new maps.

4. supply camps were located closer to the other objectives, shorter distance for supply runs

>Nope – about the same.

5. Alpine borderland lacks gimmicks, which just detract from game play, like shrines, jumping pads, wind blowing you off the bridges, auto fire cannons etc.

6. The keeps and towers were much smaller, making them easier to scout

>BAY was a pita to scout because of the amount of running. No difference between the new BL’s

7. The original Alpine borderland had a lake. Underwater combat, yeah!

>Underwater combat – BLEH!

And last, but not least: the Alpine borderland felt more like home, more like a location you would want to fight for. Maybe because it had forest, meadows, lake, hills and snow and buildings also looked more normal instead of the alien design of earth keep of desert borderland.

>People complained about the ABL’s being stale and people started leaving. Now people want ABL’s back, so they can complain some more.

[quote=6077826;Dusty Moon.4382:

>It has been proven there really is no difference between DBL’s and ABL’s as far as travel.

>BAY was a pita to scout because of the amount of running. No difference between the new BL’s

>People complained about the ABL’s being stale and people started leaving. Now people want ABL’s back, so they can complain some more.[/quote]

The time to travel from Garrison inner to Bay inner was significantly smaller (roughly half) of what to travel from Earth keep inner into Fire keep inner. Fire keep is much more difficult to scout. Bay was easy to scout as you could almost see the entire keep from inner walls.

You can check my very long post history. I have suggested countless of things here, but I never suggested that Arenanet should replace Alpine BL or focus their limited resources on making a new WvWvW. I would have much rather have them spend their resources on giving us:
- better balance
- better rewards
- less lag and less bugs

I am sure most of the WvWvW players agree that those 3 should be top priority and not some new maps!

In fact I never liked Arenanet changing the lake of the original borderland with that abomination they called ruins. It feels so out of place of the map, like some spvp conquest maps glued on top of am original beautiful design. I spent so much time in the lake and the surrounding areas that my server mates used to called me Queen of the Lake or King of the Lake.

Thank you!

Desert didn’t increase overall distances in terms of camp-to-camp, south spawns-to-camp/tower and camp-tower with the exception of north camp, assuming barricades are up. It did increase distances between keeps.

A full run-down with numbers can be found here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Offensive-Small-Team-Play-Alpine-vs-Desert

As for scouting, both Firekeep and Airkeep can have their outers scouted with a simple run-through. It takes about 20 seconds. I have the screenshots to prove it~

Airkeep All Outers

North Gate: http://puu.sh/o18I7/05e741288e.jpg

Northwest Wall: http://puu.sh/o19su/0b55c130cf.jpg

North Wall: http://puu.sh/o19tw/5f1366c0a4.jpg

West Gate: http://puu.sh/o19uf/64c8a284fc.jpg

South Wall: http://puu.sh/o19uN/f813323260.jpg

South Gate: http://puu.sh/o19wD/a95768ee6e.jpg

Firekeep All Outers

Northwest Wall: http://puu.sh/o19xU/a5a5114ddb.jpg

North Gate: http://puu.sh/o19AL/aa1099c945.jpg

Northeast Wall: http://puu.sh/o19AY/4508621dda.jpg

East Northeast Wall: http://puu.sh/o19BS/87b50c7d32.jpg

East Gate: http://puu.sh/o19CL/71f4c13ae4.jpg

East Southeast Wall: http://puu.sh/o19Dn/39e1b8e863.jpg

Southeast Wall: http://puu.sh/o19E4/2b57182fed.jpg

South Gate: http://puu.sh/o19Fl/f13cc4e161.jpg

Southwest Wall: http://puu.sh/o19FY/be71b0a0eb.jpg

Dusty Moon.4382:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Alpine borderland was:
1. simpler & easier to learn

>Simpler yes and flawed design

2. smaller & faster to travel = less time spent on traveling, more time spent on fighting and having fun

>It has been proven there really is no difference between DBL’s and ABL’s as far as travel.

3. every tower had strategical meaning e.g. you could built a treb on it to attack nearest keep

>No – sorry they didn’t. Same with on the new maps.

4. supply camps were located closer to the other objectives, shorter distance for supply runs

>Nope – about the same.

5. Alpine borderland lacks gimmicks, which just detract from game play, like shrines, jumping pads, wind blowing you off the bridges, auto fire cannons etc.

6. The keeps and towers were much smaller, making them easier to scout

>BAY was a pita to scout because of the amount of running. No difference between the new BL’s

7. The original Alpine borderland had a lake. Underwater combat, yeah!

>Underwater combat – BLEH!

And last, but not least: the Alpine borderland felt more like home, more like a location you would want to fight for. Maybe because it had forest, meadows, lake, hills and snow and buildings also looked more normal instead of the alien design of earth keep of desert borderland.

>People complained about the ABL’s being stale and people started leaving. Now people want ABL’s back, so they can complain some more.

1.What was flawed about the overall design?

2.That’s a straight kittening lie. Compare a fight over SW camp on Alpine vs. Deserted. Look at how long it takes to respawn and run back. Or if you are on the Sr cornet of the map and you see a fight is happening on the NW, on the alpine you could pretty much Mahe a straight shot, on the deserted you have to run up and around until you did the paths that take you around barricades and cliffs.

3. Yes they did all have strategic value. All except one could treb keeps, and the one that couldn’t controlled choke points.

4. Yes they were.

5. I guess you agreed with this?

6. Did you ever scout bay? You just had to move a few feet from the NE gate to be able to check every outer wall and gate. This was also the closest gate to garri making it especially quick to scout.

7. I main a ranger so I’m all for underwater combat lol. “C’mere and rez me unlikable underwater pet”

Lastly people complained about everything being stale after years of neglect, that doesn’t mean they wanted their game mode transformed into the pile of kitten that HoT delivered.

Puck, do you have the exact times for Garrison WP to SWC on Alpine? Also, Citadel to SWC since a Garri WP was by no means guaranteed. I’ll do the run on Desert and compare. As for other camp-camp, camp-tower, southspawn-camp/tower times, those have been shown to be similar. A few are a bit shorter and a few are a bit longer.

As for SW corner to NW corner, there’s no need to bypass any barricades to get there. It’s not as straight of a shot, though, and probably takes longer. I can time that one too, if you like.

I’m just throwing in that I’ve been able to flip all camps on our BL (citadel WP as only WP) within one tick ( = 15 mins). Yes, flipping camps was my sport. One took me 1,5 mins from start to finish (first attack until it was my team’s colour).
Try that on the new BLs.

Jana.6831:

I’m just throwing in that I’ve been able to flip all camps on our BL (citadel WP as only WP) within one tick ( = 15 mins). Yes, flipping camps was my sport. One took me 1,5 mins from start to finish (first attack until it was my team’s colour).
Try that on the new BLs.

I take camps in ~40s >:D, but that’s post-HoT power creep, so maybe I shouldn’t brag about it.

Anyway, I’ve run the times and there is no significant difference* in camp-to-camp travel times from Alpine to Desert with the exception of the enemy north camp, due to barriers. If you’re on your own BL with Citadel as the only WP, you shouldn’t notice any difference.

*Some times are longer, some are shorter. The greatest difference is ~25% though the median is ~10%.

Sviel.7493:

I take camps in ~40s >:D, but that’s post-HoT power creep, so maybe I shouldn’t brag about it.

Apart from that it was an indicator for those who want to estimate the travelling times: Are you sure you counted the 30s the ring is up in?

Sviel.7493:

Anyway, I’ve run the times and there is no significant difference* in camp-to-camp travel times from Alpine to Desert with the exception of the enemy north camp, due to barriers. If you’re on your own BL with Citadel as the only WP, you shouldn’t notice any difference.

*Some times are longer, some are shorter. The greatest difference is ~25% though the median is ~10%.

I’m not so sure about that – the way from NW camp to SW camp seems a bit longer than on alpine – same for NE to SE.
Also the 15 mins were because I made use of the only WP I had.

For camps, I usually finish killing the guards just before swords pop, then it’s about 10s to fill the ring. I think it used to be 30s as I’ve heard references to that, but it seems to have been changed.

The way from NW camp to SW camp is a bit longer. It was 120s on Alpine and is about 20% longer (144s) on Desert. I don’t have an exact time because Maguuma keeps holding my poor Firekeep hostage and, if I’m in that area, I’m poking it rather than recording times. NE to SE camp is also a bit longer. SWC to SC to SEC is a bit shorter.

It takes longer than 10s for the ring
Maybe you should stop the time again , although it’s completely irrelevant in this case.
And: If you count the times for your BL then assume that nothing on the map belongs to you – that were my conditions every day

ETA: I couldn’t flip the camps on enemy BLs (all 6) that fast because I was missing the WP but that was maybe 2-3 mins more.
ETA²: And yes this was without enemy players trying to save their camps.
ETA³: Just found an old video of me capping SE camp on the BLs – was 1 min 10 s (the ring took 30 s – don’t think it has changed but haven’t really paid attention to it since June).
So, it’s 6 camps on the Bls – 7 min – it took me 8 mins to get around. From citadel to NC it was ~30 s max, from citadel to NE/NW camp it was around 1,5-2 mins.
Unfortunately there’s so many small things that really annoy me on the DBLs that I don’t have the patience to try to find the optimal ways – but if nothing on the map is yours you’ll have a problem with all the PvE elements.

This is such and easy answer i can’t believe it needs explaining.

people want to fight OTHER people with the builds they have spent months making.
The desert is so big you hardly see anyone to fight and when you do they are behind a pve wall or a pve siege defence(that ship bombardment is kittening ridiculous, kitten whoever thought that was a good idea) or a pve shrine or a pve op lord or a pve event(which is gone now). people come to wvw to pvp NOT pve.

dont understand how you can not understand your own game.

Jana.6831:

I’m just throwing in that I’ve been able to flip all camps on our BL (citadel WP as only WP) within one tick ( = 15 mins). Yes, flipping camps was my sport. One took me 1,5 mins from start to finish (first attack until it was my team’s colour).
Try that on the new BLs.

Camps from desert take pretty much the same to clean up, if not less. Elite specializations brought a lot of power creep and aoe pressure that counter the difficulty added, plus now dolyaks are out of range.

With several builds you can even spend about the same time capping than actually killing the npcs, which takes around 40s from the first hit until you capped, and your 1.5min is far from being surprising, even before HoT people were taking a camp in 40-50s.

PD: Capping ring lasts 20s, not 30.

Ansau.7326:

Jana.6831:

I’m just throwing in that I’ve been able to flip all camps on our BL (citadel WP as only WP) within one tick ( = 15 mins). Yes, flipping camps was my sport. One took me 1,5 mins from start to finish (first attack until it was my team’s colour).
Try that on the new BLs.

Camps from desert take pretty much the same to clean up, if not less. Elite specializations brought a lot of power creep and aoe pressure that counter the difficulty added, plus now dolyaks are out of range.

With several builds you can even spend about the same time capping than actually killing the npcs, which takes around 40s from the first hit until you capped, and your 1.5min is far from being surprising, even before HoT people were taking a camp in 40-50s.

PD: Capping ring lasts 20s, not 30.

I really don’t get why no one seems to understand me.
1) I tried to estimate the time from point to point (not really keeps or center of keeps) on the old borderlands – that’s why I brought this up.
2) I said that I found an old video in which the ring was up 30 s – I also said in the same sentence that I haven’t watched the time since June, so I have no idea whether or not that changed

3. All of this irrelevant anyway as the only thing that mattered and why I brought it up was that you could run around all camps (= more than the BL) within 8 mins on the ABLs.

I could explain a bit more what has changed when capping camps and whether or not it’s easier or faster or whatnot – but that wasn’t my point

Jana.6831:

Ansau.7326:

Jana.6831:

I’m just throwing in that I’ve been able to flip all camps on our BL (citadel WP as only WP) within one tick ( = 15 mins). Yes, flipping camps was my sport. One took me 1,5 mins from start to finish (first attack until it was my team’s colour).
Try that on the new BLs.

Camps from desert take pretty much the same to clean up, if not less. Elite specializations brought a lot of power creep and aoe pressure that counter the difficulty added, plus now dolyaks are out of range.

With several builds you can even spend about the same time capping than actually killing the npcs, which takes around 40s from the first hit until you capped, and your 1.5min is far from being surprising, even before HoT people were taking a camp in 40-50s.

PD: Capping ring lasts 20s, not 30.

I really don’t get why no one seems to understand me.
1) I tried to estimate the time from point to point (not really keeps or center of keeps) on the old borderlands – that’s why I brought this up.
2) I said that I found an old video in which the ring was up 30 s – I also said in the same sentence that I haven’t watched the time since June, so I have no idea whether or not that changed

3. All of this irrelevant anyway as the only thing that mattered and why I brought it up was that you could run around all camps (= more than the BL) within 8 mins on the ABLs.

I could explain a bit more what has changed when capping camps and whether or not it’s easier or faster or whatnot – but that wasn’t my point

To add to that:
If you were a lone roamer trying to avoid the enemy zerg, you could criss cross the map almost anywhere. You weren’t stuck running along a funneled path or forced to take the long way around which will triple the distance.

If I was trying to annoy the enemy I would do things like hit SE camp, tap hills, tap garri, tap bay, tap bay, flip NW. Travel times included that would take about 5-7 minutes. I don’t even want to think about how long that would take on the deserted bl.

Jana.6831:

Ansau.7326:

Jana.6831:

I’m just throwing in that I’ve been able to flip all camps on our BL (citadel WP as only WP) within one tick ( = 15 mins). Yes, flipping camps was my sport. One took me 1,5 mins from start to finish (first attack until it was my team’s colour).
Try that on the new BLs.

Camps from desert take pretty much the same to clean up, if not less. Elite specializations brought a lot of power creep and aoe pressure that counter the difficulty added, plus now dolyaks are out of range.

With several builds you can even spend about the same time capping than actually killing the npcs, which takes around 40s from the first hit until you capped, and your 1.5min is far from being surprising, even before HoT people were taking a camp in 40-50s.

PD: Capping ring lasts 20s, not 30.

I really don’t get why no one seems to understand me.
1) I tried to estimate the time from point to point (not really keeps or center of keeps) on the old borderlands – that’s why I brought this up.
2) I said that I found an old video in which the ring was up 30 s – I also said in the same sentence that I haven’t watched the time since June, so I have no idea whether or not that changed

3. All of this irrelevant anyway as the only thing that mattered and why I brought it up was that you could run around all camps (= more than the BL) within 8 mins on the ABLs.

I could explain a bit more what has changed when capping camps and whether or not it’s easier or faster or whatnot – but that wasn’t my point

Well, you exaggerated quite a bit with those 8 minutes, as capping the 6 camps already took 6-7 minutes.
I’ve now run all camps in home and enemy bls. With my mesmer it takes around 11-12 minutes to reach all camps plus around 50s to take each of them, which makes around 16-17 minutes to flip all camps from a bl.
But it was pretty much the worst/slowest case:
- Mesmer is one of the slowest OOC professions.
- Didn’t used swiftness at all, just +25% trait. Expect 25-30% less time with swiftness.
- Had to deal with barricades and surround the north towers. Owning garrison in home BL and a north tower in enemy BL reduces easily 1-1.5 minute the entire journey.

Basically, capping camps in DBL requires map knowledge, takes just a bit longer and no way is the drama some of you pretend. Most of you complain about needing to learn the paths to be nearly as good as before, and sorry but that is a lame argument.

Also, it forces roamers to play with tactics and prediction of what the enemy will do. In alpine you could rush all camps in a matter of seconds, which ended up frustrating for the players in disadvantage. Now you can have the control of a borderland if you are smarter than the enemy, even if they outnumber you.
I myself and alone managed to control and point 5 of the 6 camps during 3 ticks against 3 enemy guys in an enemy BL…

But probably anet overestimated the smartness of wvw playerbase, in which anything but a flat and straightforward map is just too much.

Ansau.7326:

Basically, capping camps in DBL requires map knowledge, takes just a bit longer and no way is the drama some of you pretend. Most of you complain about needing to learn the paths to be nearly as good as before, and sorry but that is a lame argument..

It’s not about learning the paths, it’s about being restricted to them, as I already explained above…