Guild Wars 2

All the time? Doesn’t it make us more susceptible to AOE attacks? :/

Never trust them

1. Masking numbers.
2. AOE benefits (area might/swiftness etc)
3. Using their /supplyinfo mechanic
4. Moving as one ball into an opposing zerg usually has better results than disorganization.
There are probably more.

Leo Paul.1659:

Ask us to stack all the time? Doesn’t it make us more susceptible to AOE attacks? :/

Actually no, the AoE cap))) is 5 players so stacking gives everyone buffs/heals and reduces the death toll.

cap + is = kitty

Doesn’t combo field buffs have an aoe limit of 5? I don’t see a lot of formation tactics other than “ball up tightly”.. Is it really the optimum formation in wvw?

edit:

Actually no, the AoE cap))) is 5 players so stacking gives everyone buffs/heals and reduces the death toll.

cap + is = kitty

The buff makes sense.. It’s just that sometimes I’ve had some of them blame his zerg for not “stacking properly” when losing a skirmish when I feel like it would’ve made us an even easier target.

Sadly yes its zerg vs zerg vs zerg, I would love to see 30 teams of 10 people running around doing different stuff and roaming. But the mechanics and mainly the general populace are stuck in a zerg mode of 1 team of 300. :/

Yes combo fields have limit of 5 as well (edit: blast finishers in combo fields have aoe cap). But if you have several people doing it, lets say half the zerg gets a might boost. That is better than nothing. Think of the entire zerg’s dps. Not individuals.

Other skills such as the mesmer veil do not have the same aoe limit. So a zergball could theoretically be hidden running into battle. Imagine 30 people suddenly appearing in the middle of your zerg.

And yes, ball up tightly is a proven better tactic. If you have been around WvW awhile you should have seen successful pushes vs. unsuccessful ones. Balling up usually means for a successful push. Even against larger numbers. A zergball’s damage comes concentrated and fast, rather than from many directions and slower.

Stacking up is nice but you should know your class .. If you specks into tanky stack up on him and move together if you species for long range Dmg take your buff and fall back don’t stand in the middle and get hit you probaly have 900-1200 range
Also there are still that hit more then 5 ppl not all AoE effects 5 ppl should check it out
Gj and try to support your commanders. Commander with gd support are very stronge on maps

Another advantage of moving together: If you go down, no one has to run over to your body to rez you. If you are close to the group, it is easy to get several people rezzing at once and you are back on your feet quick.

when you are a ball it is easier to tell who you are supposed to be hitting. i.e3 a widespread zerg isnt hitting 10 different people who are all 10 feet away from eachother. when you are a ball you are running in one direction and anything in your way is what you aoe and you just keep putting support stuff up.

so, once you understand that it is much easier for allies to stack buffs one eachother in a ball and it is much easier for the whole group to target the same people you can see why ball is better.

also, mesmer elite skill cloak. will cloak the entire zerg for 5 seconds and is great way to intiate fight

Stacking is also to limit the size of the zerg tail. It allows for the group to strike harder rather than people trickling in throughout the fight.

Yeah, this is one of those things in WvW that seems rather ridiculous. Essentially the best way to deal with AE damage is to….have everyone jump into the AE?

Not to mention how frustrating it is to try to fight in any situation where you’re outnumbered by any group with more than 5 players in it. 1v2 isn’t bad, 1v3 isn’t even so bad, but something like 4v6 starts to be ridiculous because just about everything the 4-man group does starts to lose a significant amount of potency, while the 6-man group remains at 100% effectiveness. As long as the larger group remains in a nice “blob”, they’re going to be guaranteed a complete victory unless there’s some really insane gap in skill.

I say “complete victory” because in WvW anything short of a 100% wipe is nearly pointless as well, with everyone being able quickly resurrect downed allies. So even if your well-coordinated 5-man group manages to kill 10 people in a 20-man zerg, you really didn’t stop them at all.

This is why Tier 1 is basically nothing but gigantic blobs on each map. The game just encourages it, even if the designers didn’t intend it that way.

I call a stack primarily to concentrate our forces.

Our troops get spread out due to running between objectives or generally fighting on a tower. Being spread out like this reduces the effectiveness of our numbers and allows an enemy force to destroy us. The numbers game in WvW also accounts for the position of those numbers. To explain how this works I’ll give a hypothetical scenario.

You’re taking Durios in eternal. Your side easily has a zerg of 40 and the enemy force also has a zerg of 40. This zerg has not arrived yet at Durios to defend it and you’ve begun the attack. You dropped your siege and ordered your troops to dps the gate. Some of your zerg is still running in.

Now out of the right flank the enemy force appears. They’re running in to save the tower but are very spread out because their commander didn’t call a stack. You can see them spread all the way to Bravost. When you call to your troops to engage they will quickly surround the advancing forces and destroy them before the remainder of the force gets there. The remainder of the enemy defense force is quickly dispatched because their numbers are less than yours.

But wait, I just told you they had an equal number to your zerg right? Well only 25% of their force actually engaged yours at any time. Your force is at 75 to 100% capacity since they’re all stacked on the door burning it. You are able to take advantage of the enemy positioning and destroy them. This works even if the enemy had more numbers than you since only a portion of those numbers are engaged in combat. Can you say Loot bag train?

Now lets say the defense commander called a stack in Umberglade and wrapped up his “tail” as I call it. Now he crashes into your zerg with a full 40 man force. Some of your forces are on the gate dpsing it and some are on the side hitting the wall. You are now out of position and can only engage half of your force with a full force delay of 4 seconds. In this 4 seconds you’ll get destroyed. Your zerg wipes, the enemy saves the tower, and half your militia rage quits.

This is why we call “Stack on me”. We’re trying to concentrate our force into a more effective unit. In a stack we can also apply buffs to the group. Yes theres a 5 man limit but in a stack the AOEs won’t hit the same 5 people for everyone. You can get a large portion of your zerg buffed. When moving mesmer temporal curtain can buff everyone in the zerg at once with swiftness. This turns your zerg into a lightning fast force and you can use this speed to catch enemy forces off position. These advantages are why T1 is all gigantic blobs.

Leo Paul.1659:

Doesn’t it make us more susceptible to AOE attacks? :/

Only if you don’t move your feet.

Only if you don’t move your feet.

Actually, quite the opposite. Just hanging out IN the AE fields with the blob mitigates most AE damage ridiculously well. That’s pretty much the point of blobbing to begin with.

It’s a completely unintuitive system and different from any other game I’ve played, honestly. It’s funny that being the guy who says, “I’ll move out of the AE and away from the blob!” is actually a good way to get killed.

The fact that ppl stacking at one point and still win is the most horrible and utterly stupid part of WvW. Never ever should standing all on one position be rewarded as it is in GW2; when I stand in the Zerg train, I barely receive dmg, even against superior numbers (as long as not outmanned insanely).

The AoE limit of 5 ppl should be removed imho. And yes, few characters could then destroy a Zerg, if it doesn’t move from the place being AoEed. The mindless Zerg train would be not so effective any more and ppl would have to actually think about what they’re doing. Battle lines would have to be established, roles (like front middle and back line, as it was common in GvG in GW1) would be needed, armies would need some strukture and also Support would be way more effective…

On the other hand, server couldn’t propably handle big fights without the 5 ppl AoE limit, for the server would have to deal with a significant increase of effected players by AoE skills. Instead of dealing with traffic from 5 effected ppl, it would need to deal with the traffic from 50 effected ppl.

Bovinity.8610:

Only if you don’t move your feet.

Actually, quite the opposite. Just hanging out IN the AE fields with the blob mitigates most AE damage ridiculously well. That’s pretty much the point of blobbing to begin with.

It’s a completely unintuitive system and different from any other game I’ve played, honestly. It’s funny that being the guy who says, “I’ll move out of the AE and away from the blob!” is actually a good way to get killed.

I am referring to the stack as a whole moving with the commander, but I guess you can look at it that way as well.

I am referring to the stack as a whole moving with the commander, but I guess you can look at it that way as well.

Ah, I see. =D

Also makes skills like veil more powerful, reviving easier and the DPS of the stack is heavily concentrated causing enemies to be killed quickly and thus bringing up any downed players in the stack.

IMO the counter to the stack should be control. If control effects were area of effect without limit, stacking would still benefit from damage reduction but would risk being chain stunned. Right now there is zero significant downside to stacking.

I remember when I was playing another MMO where the best strategy is to spread out to avoid AOE attacks.. Or use pincer attacks and such.. It’s so different here in GW2.. I would also think that if I have a lot of people, I would rather have them separate into groups so we can take more territories faster.. But usually when I join wvw it’s usually form 1 big circle and take points one by one..

I agree that control having no AOE cap would probably bring a different dynamic to wvw..

Stacking = distribution of buffs + AoE cap

It is also terrific tactics for the time setting. A ball or thick lines create the perception of a solid wall and people are less likely to cut and run. If you are scattered and see the guy in front of you die and no one is right next to you, you will turn around and hoof it.

Do NOT be fooled by your commander’s call to Stack. He wants to count your supply and under no circumstances should you let him know if you have any. Instead you should go take that sentry point to get WXP for free sieges to throw down at the next tower and build with YOUR supply.

If you do end up in a Zerg Stack, it is very important that you lay down all your Darkness, Poison, Smoke, and Light Fields. This will prepare your Zerg Stack to counter a veiled enemy Zerg Stack with Retaliation, Weakness, Blindness, and Stealth. The benefits are too numerous to enumerate.

When your commander moves out, it is very important not to follow immediately. We must wait and move out one by one so that, like Sand People, we will travel single file to hide our numbers. We all know the enemy will flee before us if they suspect an even fight, so we must lure them into a false sense of security by trickling in a few at a time. And that is when we will CRUSH them with our superior tactics and fighting skills for they are bad and we are hot because we are us and they are not!

May the zerg be with you.

Laeir.5197:

Do NOT be fooled by your commander’s call to Stack. He wants to count your supply and under no circumstances should you let him know if you have any. Instead you should go take that sentry point to get WXP for free sieges to throw down at the next tower and build with YOUR supply.

If you do end up in a Zerg Stack, it is very important that you lay down all your Darkness, Poison, Smoke, and Light Fields. This will prepare your Zerg Stack to counter a veiled enemy Zerg Stack with Retaliation, Weakness, Blindness, and Stealth. The benefits are too numerous to enumerate.

When your commander moves out, it is very important not to follow immediately. We must wait and move out one by one so that, like Sand People, we will travel single file to hide our numbers. We all know the enemy will flee before us if they suspect an even fight, so we must lure them into a false sense of security by trickling in a few at a time. And that is when we will CRUSH them with our superior tactics and fighting skills for they are bad and we are hot because we are us and they are not!

May the zerg be with you.

This is…just brilliant. I honestly believe people are reading this right now and are trying to convince people on their servers that this is how you play.

Leo Paul.1659:

Doesn’t combo field buffs have an aoe limit of 5? I don’t see a lot of formation tactics other than “ball up tightly”.. Is it really the optimum formation in wvw?

Yes, and yes.

Leo Paul.1659:

The buff makes sense.. It’s just that sometimes I’ve had some of them blame his zerg for not “stacking properly” when losing a skirmish when I feel like it would’ve made us an even easier target.

It only makes you an easier target if youre attacking a keep or tower and getting hit by a bunch of ACs, as those have a 50 player limit, not 5 like player AOEs. Stacking tightly and not wearing a bunch of berserker gear are pretty key to the open field zerg vs zerg fights.

I call everyone to stack just to stick with the current trend, everyone else does it so why shouldn’t I?

If they get rid of the aoe limit this would have to apply to both defensive and offensive skills as to not make support classes useless compared to damage classes. As a result a zerg could easily maintain constant 25 might, retaliation, stability, as well as have so much healing and condition clearing the zerg would not even have to attack as the opposing zerg would kill themselves from retaliation. If you find the current wvw meta boring imagine one where the best tactic involved never attacking your enemy.

Why do people insist…

…on forcing people to…

…click their threads…

…with this cheesy tactic?

Don’t hide part of your title in the thread!!!

And echo the rest of the answers. You can share the buffs is the main reason and to spread the AoE damage out. You could have a Lava Font hit five people every time or have Lava Font hit 10 people half the time (assuming perfect RNG). You reduce the effectiveness of an AoE attack which also makes buffs more effective by reducing the damage and allowing buffs like Aegis, Protection, and Regeneration not to be overwhelmed by damage.

Same with healing; spread out, your Water healing combo fields and finishers, as an example, might hit 2-3 people or they could hit the max number of people while grouped up.

Immolator.5640:

I call everyone to stack just to stick with the current trend, everyone else does it so why shouldn’t I?

And we only stack on you because we heard all the cool kids do it, and we want to make you feel like you’re in charge.

Hahaha there edited the topic title for ya.. It was too long the first time I made it so I cut it lol. Oh and my question is primarily about stacking in a skirmish.. When another zerg is encountered and the commander starts calling “stick to me like white on rice” or something then dives into the enemy.

I was just surprised initially when I was asked to “ball up” when I thought it would only make the group take all the damage from an AoE.. I guess the aoe limit cap does indeed make balling up tightly is the best option.. In other games I play a group is usually divided by heavy armored characters in front, light armored ones in the back, with the “leader” telling front liners to dive first.

I never understood why buff and heal range in this game is about 3 steps in a massive open field MMO, sure it solves the issue of buffbots but i think the innate combat mechanics do this rather than any cap on range for these abilities. Maybe it has something to do with sPvP? I really dont know the reasoning behind it as it seems far too limiting to me, and you get the ridiculous run and stack … run and stack … u have 2 zergs staring at each other moving around into a large stacked piles. Take the kittening handbrake off Devs and let open field WvW be expansive open field fights.

The reason DAoC had such great roaming open field battles is that the healing and rebuffing range was pretty decent. You would of course get players that still over extended beyond that range and died. But generally fights would be expansive.

1 of my main gripes with this game is the range on these buffs/heals after playing DAoC(the game that i think personally implemented WvW better than any other)for 8 years on and off.

DAoC promoted spreading out groups to create open field fights.

1. Open field (lol) and not the million narrow roads, passages, and gates found in WvW

2. No AoE cap (off-topic side note, this surprisingly also allowed groups of 8 able to kill groups of 40+ if they are skilled)

3. Casting gets interrupted on hit, causing them to have to reposition smartly

4. Many single-target spells and heals

GW2, on the other hand…

1. No single-target heals. Most are AoE or “4 closest allies”, encouraging stacking

2. AoE limit encourages stacking to minimize damage from the ridiculous amounts of AoEs. Also, when WvW had no AoE cap, it was not like DAoC open field and everyone spreading out, but it went to the other extreme. It was AoE range wars, and this is because there is very little flat, open field compared to DAoC. There is no alternative.

3. With dedicated healers and protection replaced by self-healing, there’s no reason not to all focus-fire and overwhelm them

4. Most support skills are “4 closest allies”

5. Blast combos are once again “4 closest allies” and are maximized in potential and amount of blasts if everyone was stacked.

The pattern goes on. So, it is just superior to stack on the commander, and there is no tactical reason to spread out as long as the zergball is always moving their feet.

I dont really have a problem with the cap on AoE’s, i figure the 5 people getting my buffs/heals are the 5 people in my group, thats fine, if only they could walk more than 3 steps from where i am and still receive them.

In the early days of DAoC you could pull off the 8 vs 40 and win but as the game matured it got a lot harder(scrapping the pre-requisites for purge, extra mez reduction/removal) unless you ran the good ole Egg Na Nog Ad suicide macro bomb group.

Evertime commander tells us to stack, someone touches my butt.

This is what happens when you shout " stack on me " irl

For me, I don’t really like balling up.. The zerg drowns the recognition of individuals aside from maybe the commander.. In open field fights you can tell which person did well by killing several enemies or something..

AoE cakitten players, you actually mitigate damage when stacking up. It also makes it easier to hit maximum allies with aoe boons and heals, some of which have quite a small radius.
And stacking up Retaliation means those throwing AoE on your zerg take more damage then they deal. Crazy huh?

Rich.1528:

Never trust them

Commanders are like Quaggans assassins. Beware.

Leo Paul.1659:

For me, I don’t really like balling up.. The zerg drowns the recognition of individuals aside from maybe the commander.. In open field fights you can tell which person did well by killing several enemies or something..

The entire point of good commanders balling up is that the sum of coordinated players/classes is more than simply stacking players/random classes on top of each other. I enjoy small 5v5 battles and the like just as much as the next guy, but 30 people working for a common goal with a common leader that is both well respect and skilled at commanding is definetly something else. When the entire group does well after an intense battle against just as good people, you wont be missing that “recognition” you seek.

If you are one of those that consider invidially killing other players as “skill”, then sure I understand why you dont like it. 9 out of 10 theives and berserkerderper warriors will surely agree with you.

A balled up zerg wins 90% of engagements vs spread out enemy…its the way gw2 combat works…its also why melee weapons are so superior to range…you always want to be close to your allies for buffs/heals etc…

A good rule of thumb never be greater than a dodge away from your allies…

Dawdler.8521:

Leo Paul.1659:

For me, I don’t really like balling up.. The zerg drowns the recognition of individuals aside from maybe the commander.. In open field fights you can tell which person did well by killing several enemies or something..

The entire point of good commanders balling up is that the sum of coordinated players/classes is more than simply stacking players/random classes on top of each other. I enjoy small 5v5 battles and the like just as much as the next guy, but 30 people working for a common goal with a common leader that is both well respect and skilled at commanding is definetly something else. When the entire group does well after an intense battle against just as good people, you wont be missing that “recognition” you seek.

If you are one of those that consider invidially killing other players as “skill”, then sure I understand why you dont like it. 9 out of 10 theives and berserkerderper warriors will surely agree with you.

Yea I guess it’s really why I enjoy smaller scale territorial wars in other games than WvW, like GvG or something.. And it’s really the reason why I run a roaming build.. Other than that, my PC can’t handle zerg fights, I either stop moving or get disconnected altogether.

Another question, is it really better to rally all of the people in a map and take territories one by one? I was thinking maybe it’s good to make like 3 groups or something then coordinate into taking several points at once since the NPCs get Righteous Indignation for a while anyway..

Leo Paul.1659:

Another question, is it really better to rally all of the people in a map and take territories one by one? I was thinking maybe it’s good to make like 3 groups or something then coordinate into taking several points at once since the NPCs get Righteous Indignation for a while anyway..

No its not better. In fact, it usually leads to you loosing most of things on a map to smaller groups. Sure it will roll over anything it finds, but as soon as the other servers catch on they easily avoid the zerg train.

One of the most effective way to control a map is to have a pug zerg, a larger guild group and multiple smaller support guilds. Roamers dont really count as they will always be there. If the pug zerg is commanded by someone from the larger guild group the combo become very powerfull – the guild control the pug zerg while not having so many interfering with the actual guild group.

Its when you miss aspects of this it become troublesome. Without smaller guild groups, your forces wont be spread out enough to control the map. Without a large guild group, you have nothing to counter enemy guilds that has similar numbers. Without a commander tagged pug zerg, people will be unfocused and scattered.

I agree with you dawdler, i think that is the ideal distribution of people in order to be more producitve.. So I think this is one of the weaknesses that my server has, we don’t have a lot of commanders in wvw.. I usually just see 1 or 2 in a couple of borderlands, while the rest is completely empty.. Our forces become too concentrated that in my opinion, we are not maximizing our time.

Sean.8274:

1. Masking numbers.
2. AOE benefits (area might/swiftness etc)
3. Using their /supplyinfo mechanic
4. Moving as one ball into an opposing zerg usually has better results than disorganization.
There are probably more.

Pretty much this. AoE target per skill is limited to 5, so a zerg stack together can give each member protection against nukes. And you can only buff each other when you stack.

GW2 is anti small man, pro zerg..

Anet talks about how they wanted to emulate DAOC, but it becomes pretty obvious when playing that they have ZERO idea how DAOC really was…and I question that any of them ever played the game to begin with.

Xsorus.2507:

GW2 is anti small man, pro zerg..

Anet talks about how they wanted to emulate DAOC, but it becomes pretty obvious when playing that they have ZERO idea how DAOC really was…and I question that any of them ever played the game to begin with.

It’s actually anti-anything but a zerg. I still can’t believe we don’t have some kind of private or guild only grouping system for private forces over 5 people. Something like allowing commanders to hide the pin AND still retain all the functions of a squad, only those people currently in the squad could see the private commander pin.

You have 15 people who want to run privately together. Our only options are to create three seperate groups, and use a 3rd party voice program for communication as there is no dedicated chat channel. Horrible option.

Removing the AoE cap or at the very least increasing it to say 20 or 30 would stop this stacking nonsense, but I don’t see that happening. It’s pretty stupid in my opinion. If they did that, people would actually have to form strategies instead of just running into 1 giant ball to abuse the AoE cap.

they ask u to stack to spam combo fields buffing ur group with might/swiftness and others. Stacking also hides ur numbers, it also keeps u group tight so when u move ur a single group making ur forces split the dmg taking less, what i ment by that is the AOE wont hit the same 5 in the ball everytime

KingClash.3186:

Sadly yes its zerg vs zerg vs zerg, I would love to see 30 teams of 10 people running around doing different stuff and roaming. But the mechanics and mainly the general populace are stuck in a zerg mode of 1 team of 300. :/

You should come see our warband when our guild is out in force. While we will move and attack as one large group, each individual 5 man group is operating independently. So when we come across other people, especially larger forces, you’ll see some pretty coordination. The best part is the zergs don’t know how to react except to barrel on in head first.

Also while I’m sure it’s been said the number one reason to constantly stack is to keep everyone together. You can drop mesmer speed strips or guardian circles and everyone gets to zip off together. The next best reason is to conceal your actual numbers.

So you want to design wvw to get away from zerging but due to the technical limitations of your servers and the effect they have on aoe limitations you can’t? And yes 5 player cap on aoe means it is easier to group up to reduce damage and cc.

Leo Paul.1659:

All the time? Doesn’t it make us more susceptible to AOE attacks? :/

It depends when you stack. No good commander stacks during combat other than for water fields and that’s not more than 5 seconds at most. Commanders who try to stack more than that during combat will die.

Now outside of combat, there are a lot of reasons to stacks. Some are:
1. Supply count
2. Group people back together when running to an objective (prevent the snake effect)
3. Stack might prior to a combat

Volcanus.2756:

So you want to design wvw to get away from zerging but due to the technical limitations of your servers and the effect they have on aoe limitations you can’t? And yes 5 player cap on aoe means it is easier to group up to reduce damage and cc.

One thing to remember. A lot of us LIKE zerging. Changing the gameplay away from that would lose a lot of players. Instead, there need to be some newer smaller maps that cater to people such as yourself who want smaller scale combat.