Guild Wars 2

@colgin

if they get insta bombed, they get a free out and a heal recharge at 25%.
they dont have crap melee damage with bombs.
they arent taking up backline slots, theyre replacing warriors because now warriors suck.

Why wouldn’t I use my builder if I want to check how to gain 3400 armor? I should just guess it? That’s so much more reliable.

Vurnability is an absolute joke. Get a ranger, 100x more vurnability = viable right?

I’m not gonna argue any further. People liking engineer may do whatever they want on it. I’m not forcing anyone to not play it, I’m just saying it’s not as good as the current meta. If you disagree, I would love to challenge your guild to come GvG us, TA, and show us how good it works, or at least upload some footage of these ’’glorious’’ engineer plays. Otherwise I will not change my opinion about engineer.

@Zettsumei
Thank you. At least someone reads before commenting.

One thing I do notice, is that it seems like an odd argument to me, BlackDevil, to suggest warrior does X better, ele does Y better, and guardian does Z better. If engineer can do good at all of it, does it matter if 3 professions combined can do it “better”?

The fact that you need 3 profession to stack for your argument, against one, takes a lot of wind out of those sails if you ask me.

BlackDevil.9268:

Why wouldn’t I use my builder if I want to check how to gain 3400 armor? I should just guess it? That’s so much more reliable.

I never suggested not to use a builder. I suggested if you are going to disingenuously claim to tell others what a profession can or cannot do, that you actually have experience with it, and know what it can do, rather then argue based on your experience with a theoretical builder.

For example, I leveled all 8 profession to 80, predominantly in WvW within the first 6 months of release. I did so, so that I can know what they can do against me, as well as what they can do for me, as I knew I was going to be a commander.

I see you continue to avoid sharing your time and experience on the profession, again.

I enjoy commanding on my engineer because it is both unorthodox, and very fun.

I only used guardian as refference to the might stacking and said might stacking was not relevant for an engineer to take as note what he can do since most might stacking comes from guardians.

For the ele part I said it was no where near compareable to the ele waterfield and I’d like to add to that, that there shouldn’t be too few water fields if your eles are doing their job. Again, the waterfields of the engineer become irrelevant due the lack of blasts a melee can put out. You can drop as many waterfields as you want, but at a certain point it becomes irrelevant if you put down 5 in 10 seconds or 2.

For both situations it’s extremely different than actually comparing classes. With this I mean X already does the job so Y doesn’t have to, rather than X can do better than Y.
Any other arguments used are based on comparing warrior to engineer.

coglin.1867:

One thing I do notice, is that it seems like an odd argument to me, BlackDevil, to suggest warrior does X better, ele does Y better, and guardian does Z better. If engineer can do good at all of it, does it matter if 3 professions combined can do it “better”?

Well… yes?

GWEN is built to overwhelm the enemy with two specific formats – GW tank, EN bomb.

Look at it this way: Assume a quick battle. If two engineers have 20hp/20dps, they wont win against 1 guardian with 40hp/10dps and 1 necro with 10hp/40dps. In the scenario that the GN attack first, both engineers die because 50dps win over 40hp. In the scenario that the EE attack first, the guardian hopefully absorb all the damage even if he dies, making the necro kill both engineers.

That is not how it works in practice of course, but that’s the overall theory of GWEN and why doing “good” isnt enough.

As always, it would be interesting to see a 20 man GvG of GWEN versus Engineers with 2 perfectly equal skilled guilds (or any other profession, GWEN vs Mesmers could be hilarious), but that doesnt really happen I’m afraid. All profession raids has been done, but not under controlled forms.

Or the engis go out of wells, reflect or block life blasts or simply cc the kitten out of 50dps necro Meanwhile guardian with his staff …

Dawdler.8521:

Look at it this way: Assume a quick battle. If two engineers have 20hp/20dps, they wont win against 1 guardian with 40hp/10dps and 1 necro with 10hp/40dps. In the scenario that the GN attack first, both engineers die because 50dps win over 40hp. In the scenario that the EE attack first, the guardian hopefully absorb all the damage even if he dies, making the necro kill both engineers..

Why would players dump damage at the guardian?

Dawdler.8521:

As always, it would be interesting to see a 20 man GvG of GWEN versus Engineers with 2 perfectly equal skilled guilds (or any other profession, GWEN vs Mesmers could be hilarious), but that doesnt really happen I’m afraid. All profession raids has been done, but not under controlled forms.

Why does it have to be engineers or mesmers against every other profession? This is the context approach that some are using that I do not get.

Why does it have to be “either/or”?? In reality, or at least my experience it is all of the above or “GWEN + Engineer + Mesmer”. Ranger sniper groups. Mesmers for strong utility, portal, feedback, mass invis, and so on. Engineers for fields, AoE grenade range pressure, front line stab strips, AoE heals, and so on.

The limited mindset approach of the “either/or” angle, and the unnecessary perspective of insisting on trying to come into a thread like this with no practical knowledge in some cases, of the profession, and try to argue from an angle of preventing people from playing it, is such a limited mind set to me, that it is baffling.

BlackDevil.9268:

Any other arguments used are based on comparing warrior to engineer.

Why? Is there some new game mechanics that irrationally prevents them from fighting together? Or being on the same battlefield? Again with the unjustified “either/or” arguments.

Coglin, I think many ppl go with this either/or because they think about their 15v15 or 20v20 gvg player invented mode, where you have to fit in like 5 guardians (if not more) 5 warriors (if not more), 4-5 necro, 4-5 eles, 1-2 thief, 1-2 mesmer – resulting in having problems with fitting in any other classes.

In zerging I never had problems with playing my engi. I’m not super skilled or experienced with it (just one of my many chars, not the main one), but killing ppl or ‘at least’ causing them to die to my zerg was not hard at all. Of course if you try to ‘replace’ other class with engi it won’t work. Each class has it’s own pros and cons. Play engi like an engi, not like engi who try to impersonate a warrior or others…

didnt WM runned their zerg with almost every one engies, i dont play the game for quite some time, but cant supply crate being traited to use ground targetting ???
20-30 engies spiking suply crate on zerg while waterblasting :\ i would bet engies would win easy.

Aeolus.3615:

didnt WM runned their zerg with almost every engies???

Others have as well. I know [SG] has days in which their entire guild runs all of one profession, changing from week to week ,simply for some guild fun.

Engi’s make the best drivers.

Engineers are an extremely strong class and is why they’re currently valued as the best or tied for best roaming class in the game. The thief is arguably worse in its small-scale/1v1 fighting against a variety of common builds which the engineer can handle.

The question is not if engi is good or bad in a zerg. The question you should ask is "is it better to add 1 engi instead of another guardian/warrior ?

A few problems with the class:

1)Turrers are not mobile and die fast for AoE like all other AI skill.s

2)Gadgets: most of them are bad or selfish skills

3)Rifle: most skills are single target. Been a projectile makes it even worse

4) Pistol: same problem as the rifle. Been condi based makes it even worse on a zerg that runs -40% food and has some players with hoelbrak/melandru. Aoe cleansing is way too strong too.

5) Shield: Selfish weapon.

6)Tool kit: great in spvp and small scale but for a zerg it is lackluster. The autoatk is bad, #2 is small and does low dmg, #3 is single target, #5 is single target. The only good thing left is the block, but in a zerg if you are just blocking you are not doing much.

7)Elixirs: Elixir U is pure RNG. Elixir C not as good as purging flames or shouts. Elixir R revive is not as good as a war banner.

8) Flame thrower: die for retal. Not great dmg.

9) Elixir gun: no offensive pressure. The healing field is a light field. #3 is harder to use than a shout or warhorn.

10) Elites: Mortar is useless. Elixir X ir full RNG. Supply crate is ok for the stun but the turrets die too fast in a zerg.

xDudisx.5914:

The question is not if engi is good or bad in a zerg. The question you should ask is "is it better to add 1 engi instead of another guardian/warrior ?

A few problems with the class:

1)Turrers are not mobile and die fast for AoE like all other AI skill.s

2)Gadgets: most of them are bad or selfish skills

3)Rifle: most skills are single target. Been a projectile makes it even worse

4) Pistol: same problem as the rifle. Been condi based makes it even worse on a zerg that runs -40% food and has some players with hoelbrak/melandru. Aoe cleansing is way too strong too.

5) Shield: Selfish weapon.

6)Tool kit: great in spvp and small scale but for a zerg it is lackluster. The autoatk is bad, #2 is small and does low dmg, #3 is single target, #5 is single target. The only good thing left is the block, but in a zerg if you are just blocking you are not doing much.

7)Elixirs: Elixir U is pure RNG. Elixir C not as good as purging flames or shouts. Elixir R revive is not as good as a war banner.

8) Flame thrower: die for retal. Not great dmg.

9) Elixir gun: no offensive pressure. The healing field is a light field. #3 is harder to use than a shout or warhorn.

10) Elites: Mortar is useless. Elixir X ir full RNG. Supply crate is ok for the stun but the turrets die too fast in a zerg.

whats your point in listing out all of the things that dont make engi meta and avoiding the things that will? i dont get it.

Not gonna bother replying to each point, but just looking at last one: why would you drop supply crate on the zerg (aka meele train as I understand) – I would use it on the enemy ranged to catch some, these usually have 1-2 stunbreaker, or in some necro cases – don’t have any stunbreakers.

xDudisx.5914:

1)Turrers are not mobile and die fast for AoE like all other AI skill.s

And? Since when did players try to use turrets in WvW?

What path of logic are you using here? Does this mean guardians are bad because someone doesn’t like signets? Your using a utility set that no one uses in WvW as a reason to define the profession as bad for WvW?

xDudisx.5914:

2)Gadgets: most of them are bad or selfish skills

Sword or Mace + Shield is selfish so don’t play guardians and warrior right?

Or by the opposing definition, Healing turret cleanses conditions in an AoE and allow several water firld blast

xDudisx.5914:

3)Rifle: most skills are single target. Been a projectile makes it even worse

It would probably be best if you actually played or even understood the profession. Grenades say hi!

xDudisx.5914:

4) Pistol: same problem as the rifle. Been condi based makes it even worse on a zerg that runs -40% food and has some players with hoelbrak/melandru. Aoe cleansing is way too strong too.

How bad are you? That your first thought is that people use this? Do you use this?

xDudisx.5914:

5) Shield: Selfish weapon.

Right. 2 AoE interrupts, and might stacking or healing blast finishers are selfish.

xDudisx.5914:

6)Tool kit: great in spvp and small scale but for a zerg it is lackluster. The autoatk is bad, #2 is small and does low dmg, #3 is single target, #5 is single target. The only good thing left is the block, but in a zerg if you are just blocking you are not doing much.

Who suggested the tool kit was meta?
Your ability to pick random skills, that no one suggested were meta, and define a bad understanding of them, is magical

xDudisx.5914:

7)Elixirs: Elixir U is pure RNG. Elixir C not as good as purging flames or shouts. Elixir R revive is not as good as a war banner.

So because you feel the various elixirs are not what you feel as equals they are bad?

Elixir R doesn’t take up an elite slot, it has double the range, removes multiple conditions off of 5 players, places a light fields, as well as refilling endurance on ones self and cleanses immobilize.

xDudisx.5914:

8) Flame thrower: die for retal. Not great dmg.

Maybe you would die from retal. Skilled or intelligent players do not spam AoE AA.

xDudisx.5914:

9) Elixir gun: no offensive pressure. The healing field is a light field. #3 is harder to use than a shout or warhorn.

Odd. I have trouble grasping why you would take a support utility that can remove 25 conditions, 2500+ AoE heal, AoE damage and so on, as weak offensive pressure.

That makes about as much sense as ridiculing the moon for not emitting enough sunlight.

xDudisx.5914:

10) Elites: Mortar is useless. Elixir X ir full RNG. Supply crate is ok for the stun but the turrets die too fast in a zerg.

So a bad elite locks a profession out of the meta? Well Glyph of Elementals locks Elementalist out. Rampage is garbage, warriors are out………………………………

Rifle has more multi target skills than single target skills…. the AA pierces.

I personally do not think engi is meta, but it is funny when people pull out “facts” that are really anecdotes or “what this guy told me”

Hey guys!

First of all thanks for all the replies!

Next to that I think that engineer can be very very strong in WvW according to your replies and my own testing. The main problem is that you have to be very experienced on the engineer which is actually quite rare these days (in conparison).

I have been testing and what I found to be most useful is a zerk setup in combination with slick shoes, rocket boots and elixir S. My role was to get the stability down just before the zerg arrived. Therefore my damage came from rifle with burst (on necro bomb) fron jump shot

insanemaniac.2456:

xDudisx.5914:

The question is not if engi is good or bad in a zerg. The question you should ask is "is it better to add 1 engi instead of another guardian/warrior ?

A few problems with the class:

1)Turrers are not mobile and die fast for AoE like all other AI skill.s

2)Gadgets: most of them are bad or selfish skills

3)Rifle: most skills are single target. Been a projectile makes it even worse

4) Pistol: same problem as the rifle. Been condi based makes it even worse on a zerg that runs -40% food and has some players with hoelbrak/melandru. Aoe cleansing is way too strong too.

5) Shield: Selfish weapon.

6)Tool kit: great in spvp and small scale but for a zerg it is lackluster. The autoatk is bad, #2 is small and does low dmg, #3 is single target, #5 is single target. The only good thing left is the block, but in a zerg if you are just blocking you are not doing much.

7)Elixirs: Elixir U is pure RNG. Elixir C not as good as purging flames or shouts. Elixir R revive is not as good as a war banner.

8) Flame thrower: die for retal. Not great dmg.

9) Elixir gun: no offensive pressure. The healing field is a light field. #3 is harder to use than a shout or warhorn.

10) Elites: Mortar is useless. Elixir X ir full RNG. Supply crate is ok for the stun but the turrets die too fast in a zerg.

whats your point in listing out all of the things that dont make engi meta and avoiding the things that will? i dont get it.

The point is that the list has basically everything that an engi can bring up to the table.

Weapon skills worse than warrior/guardian ones
Utilities worse than warrior/guardian ones

Engi is not part of the meta.

dancingmonkey.4902:

So because you feel the various elixirs are not what you feel as equals they are bad?..

Yes, if there is a better class to bring it makes the worse class bad. No reason to bring an engi instead of a guardian/warrior/ele/necro.

Warriors, guardians and eles offer way better group support than engi. Necros offer better dps.

Compare the engi sheild with a warrior warhorn. The shield is a selfish weapon. The warhorn has the same blast, clears more condis, converts them into boons, gives swiftness, vigor and causes aoe weakness.

Engi is not part of the meta. It is good for spvp but not for wvw zerging. The problem is the class that is not good for those situations. If it was a player skill problem we would see the top guilds running lots of engis and other under used classes. Unfortunately this is not the case. Every semi organized group has basically the same composition and builds. There are some classes that work in large fights and some that do not.

Not bothering replying everything you said because most of your statements make no sense anyway.

theyre not meta because they dont offer anything that another class can do better.

xDudisx.5914:

The point is that the list has basically everything that an engi can bring up to the table.

Weapon skills worse than warrior/guardian ones
Utilities worse than warrior/guardian ones

Engi is not part of the meta.

no it does not. youve blatantly ignored every single good thing:

• slick shoes
• 5 targets on bomb auto, bigger and better cleave
• as much cc as wars/guards
• invuln(s)
• stealths/smoke
• multiple blasts
• fire
• water
• aoe condi clear
• up to 98% soft cc reduction
• multiple leaps
• heal reset (meaning more aoe condi clears) and stunbreak reset

the things engi truly lacks that either guard or war have in a front line build:

• strong stability
• aoe fury
• aoe swiftness
• warbanner

with the stab change, there is no longer such a thing as strong stab. and it promoted slick shoes to god tier utility. it just takes time to adapt, because tons of warriors and guardians have lots of inertia and dont wanna learn a new class that might actually require some thought.

insanemaniac.2456:

xDudisx.5914:

The point is that the list has basically everything that an engi can bring up to the table.

Weapon skills worse than warrior/guardian ones
Utilities worse than warrior/guardian ones

Engi is not part of the meta.

no it does not. youve blatantly ignored every single good thing:

• slick shoes
• 5 targets on bomb auto, bigger and better cleave
• as much cc as wars/guards
• invuln(s)
• stealths/smoke
• multiple blasts
• fire
• water
• aoe condi clear
• up to 98% soft cc reduction
• multiple leaps
• heal reset (meaning more aoe condi clears) and stunbreak reset

the things engi truly lacks that either guard or war have in a front line build:

• strong stability
• aoe fury
• aoe swiftness
• warbanner

with the stab change, there is no longer such a thing as strong stab. and it promoted slick shoes to god tier utility. it just takes time to adapt, because tons of warriors and guardians have lots of inertia and dont wanna learn a new class that might actually require some thought.

• 5 targets on bomb auto, bigger and better cleave

the bomb has a dealy on its dmg different from guard/war auto and necros wells. If the enemy is moving to other direction the bombs have a hard time hitting.

• as much cc as wars/guards
  Line of warding no target cap. Hammer 5 player stun. Warrior has flurry. Most engi cc is single target.

• invuln(s)

If you are not in the wrong place and dodge zerg bombs you don’t need invul. Also when using elixir S you are not doing dmg or anything.

• stealths/smoke

1/2 mesmers with veil do that job better than any engi.

• multiple blasts

• fire
• water

ele has 1 fire on a 6s cd
ele has 1 water on kitten and other on 20s untraited

• aoe condi clear

Not as good as guardian shouts+ purging flames or a warrior with warhorn+shouts

• up to 98% soft cc reduction
  A warrior does the same

Like I said before. It is not that engis are bad is that it is better to just bring +1 warrior/guardian/ele/necro instead of an engi.

daily reminder that engis have 73% direct dmg reduction while being stunned*, break immob/chill/cripple with their leap, get -95% condi-duration below 33% health*, will gain complete immunity below 25% health, can use their healing skill (which is a water-field blast-finisher) twice in short succession, and ignore cripple/chill with superspeed.

All this defensive boni while still having:
37% crit chance
2k power
195% crit-dmg
2.6k armor
2 leaps
5-target aoe cleave AA for melee
piercing projectile AA for 1k range pressure
waterfield
firefield
smokefield
unblockable aoe immob/cripple
aoe-knockdown which is rapidly burning stability-stacks
aoe-knockback
aoe-regen and condi-clear

All in the same frekkin build
Directly comparing a warri in identical gear to it you only loose 400 armor.
…And get a metric kittenton of cc, utility and superior dps for it.

The only 2 reasons why engis were always despised by the Meta is because people are lazy and can’t handle the chalange of a complacated class, and because the engis lack of stability.
Since now everybody has this issue, going into melee against higher numbers will require superior cc for your side, which is something only the engineer can reliably deliver.
The last 2 advantage warriors still have (and only justify their existence in WvW anymore) is their way better aoe condi-removal and banners. Luckily banners will be less necessary since the engi actually heals for just 1.5k per 20sec less than the warrior**, but comes with more than 70% of this heal as aoe-output, greatly supporting every player around them.
Still it’s good to have maybe 1 warri in the melee group if you face condi-heavy enemies often. Else you can tuck them on the shelves or revamp them as rifle-snipers for the backlines…

*
these values change on the buff-food being taken.
if you need more condi-resistance and can deal with the incoming dmg quite fine, switch back to the traditional -40% condi-duration. Therefore you’ll gain -53% dmg while being stunned and -115% condi-duration below 33% health.

**
healing per second, for a 20-second interval:
Warrior:
- Healing Signet 20 × 375 == 7500
- Sigil of Leeching 2x 975 == 1950
- Shouts 2x 1705 == 3410
- Adrenal health 6x 351 == 2106
- Regeneration 8x 161 == 1288
- Waterfield blasts 1x 1320 == 1320 (I did not take earthshaker into account since that uses up the available adrenalin, therefore reduces the output of adrenal health and therefore costs more healing / s than it adds)
combined this is an impressive amount of 17.574 healing over the course of 20sec, giving an estimated 878h/s for the warrior itself.
Now look into the aoe-heals provided by warrior:
- Shouts 2x 1705 == 3410
- Waterfield blasts 1x 1320 == 1320
4730 heal over the course of 20sec, ending with 236h/s for the group around them.
These values imply perfect management of cd’s, ofc.

Now lets look into the engineer, running the tanky version posted above:
- Healing Turret 2x 2570 == 5140 (one tick is aoe)
- Backpack regenerator 20×122 == 2440
- Regeneration (permanent) 20×161 == 3220
- Waterfield blasts 4x 1320 == 5280
Even tho we can say that a total of 16.080 healing is definitively less (slightly) than warrior, lets look into the aoe-portion of these heals.
- Healing Turret 1x 2570 == 2570
- Regeneration 14x 161 == 2254
- Waterfield blasts 4x 1320 == 5280
A good load of 10.104 aoe-heal over the course of 20 sec, easily doubling the plain group-heal potential of that of warriors.
Again, these values imply perfect management of cd’s.

xDudisx.5914:

• 5 targets on bomb auto, bigger and better cleave

the bomb has a dealy on its dmg different from guard/war auto and necros wells. If the enemy is moving to other direction the bombs have a hard time hitting.

• as much cc as wars/guards
  Line of warding no target cap. Hammer 5 player stun. Warrior has flurry. Most engi cc is single target.

• invuln(s)

If you are not in the wrong place and dodge zerg bombs you don’t need invul. Also when using elixir S you are not doing dmg or anything.

• stealths/smoke

1/2 mesmers with veil do that job better than any engi.

• multiple blasts

• fire
• water

ele has 1 fire on a 6s cd
ele has 1 water on kitten and other on 20s untraited

• aoe condi clear

Not as good as guardian shouts+ purging flames or a warrior with warhorn+shouts

• up to 98% soft cc reduction
  A warrior does the same

Like I said before. It is not that engis are bad is that it is better to just bring +1 warrior/guardian/ele/necro instead of an engi.

why are you bringing mesmers and eles into this when im saying that engis will replace guards and wars

xDudisx.5914:

dancingmonkey.4902:

So because you feel the various elixirs are not what you feel as equals they are bad?..

Yes, if there is a better class to bring it makes the worse class bad. No reason to bring an engi instead of a guardian/warrior/ele/necro.

You appear, in my eyes, to be having two major problems here. To start, that is not what “bad” means. What your describing is simply “slightly less efficient” which in some of those cases you are factually wrong, other you are simply subjectively wrong in my opinion. Do a online dictionary search, study the definition of that word, and see if you still feel it applies.

Your other problem is your tactic of suggesting replacing anything at all. There is no reason to discuss this in the context of replace one profession with another. Again, it is not an “either/or” matter, it is a matter of value when incorporating the engineer with other professions. This discussion should take place in an inclusive manner to those professions, not an exclusive manner in which one replaces the other.

coglin.1867:

No one is suggesting replacing any profession with the engineer. Well, other then you. That makes the specific scenario your problem, not an actual problem, because the rest of the posters, as far as I can tell, are being reasonable and speaking inclusively, you are the only one viewing it exclusively. Again, it is not an “either/or” matter, it is a matter of value when incorporating the engineer with other professions.

no ive said they can take the place of some warriors for sure cuz warriors suck with the stab changes :P

engineer does fit in the meta , infact engi’s are quite good to use in the focus party , the fact that nobody started about the fp in this threads tells me enough

Arathor.7419:

engineer does fit in the meta , infact engi’s are quite good to use in the focus party , the fact that nobody started about the fp in this threads tells me enough

Quite good at doing what In the focus party? Killing people? Yeah… the thing is, other classes are better at it and can bring utility for the group too. And we are back to square one.

Engineer is pretty unpopular even in the roaming world. Necros/rangers/engis are always targeted to be killed first due to their lower defensive skills. Yet engi’s can not do nearly as much burst as necros/rangers. Rangers are actually somewhat more durable with better condi clear and invulns, where as a lot of engi’s I see in wvw die within 5 seconds of being focused.

Arathor.7419:

engineer does fit in the meta , infact engi’s are quite good to use in the focus party , the fact that nobody started about the fp in this threads tells me enough

Nahh, only as 5th member I’d say. It’s always useful to have a mesmer and then you’re left with 3 spots. 3 thieves > 2 thieves 1 engi.
I don’t see how a class that is such easy catch for the melee or enemy fp can be better than a thief or mesmer other than cleaving on downed.
Once the enemy guild starts running 5fp and you want to do the same, an engi is not such bad pick since the cleave will come along much more when you have fp vs fp going on and the enemy goes into SR.

Indie.4129:

Because it is hard class for most people to play good. The Gwen classes are all pretty simple to pick up

What? Engi is one of the absolute easiest to play. It is a fantastic roaming class.

It isn’t as popular in zergs simply because it doesn’t offer as much as GWEN.

The V.8759:

Hey guys!

First of all thanks for all the replies!

Next to that I think that engineer can be very very strong in WvW according to your replies and my own testing. The main problem is that you have to be very experienced on the engineer which is actually quite rare these days (in conparison).

I have been testing and what I found to be most useful is a zerk setup in combination with slick shoes, rocket boots and elixir S. My role was to get the stability down just before the zerg arrived. Therefore my damage came from rifle with burst (on necro bomb) fron jump shot

eng can help the guild raid but in a support role of the main GWEN group like memsers /thieves and to keep safe the light members of the main raid like ele and necro from enemy thieves .

also eng can do his own water blasts but more as an emergency water than a main water for melee group that ele give .

toss elixir b is not so important to make eng main part of the group , because stability became a useless boon …… to have it means nothing . it can very easy removed.

and yes his elites is not for group raids . the kit is easy avoidable and the elixir x with tornado is 50/50 rng . rng is not for dedicated groups .

the most important reason is that eng in a guild raid can not do mistakes . one mistake means death while the GWEN classes have more options to survive from their mistakes ( guardian aegis at 50% , war defy pain at 25%, ele armor of earth at 25% , necro death shroud )

Reborn.2934:

the most important reason is that eng in a guild raid can not do mistakes . one mistake means death while the GWEN classes have more options to survive from their mistakes ( guardian aegis at 50% , war defy pain at 25%, ele armor of earth at 25% , necro death shroud )

sure you can make tons of mistakes, but all the oh kitten buttons dont exist cuz you get stuff passively from traits. you need to be aware of icds and not go ham when your S @ 25% is down. you need to be aware that immob will stealth you, and not dodge or use skills if youre gonna depend on the stealth. you need to make sure your heal and stunbreak are on cd before you hit 25%.

@insanemaniac.2456

aoe damage is passing or not the stealth ?

when the passive stealth pop up can this help engie stay alive from aoe damage in front-line ?

as i said to play the engie is useful only in support role to protect the damage dealers ( ele , necro ,memsers . thieves) . if he try to fight with melee "ball " one mistake and he is out . nothing can save him and he can only be useful with bombs that are melee aoe weapons in fact that can blasted . i am not sure for elixir gun if it pops the retaliation . but flamethrower and grenades pop retaliation and he can’t use them as mainly weapons and pistol in main hand has very poor for raw damage . only blind is useful from pistol , fire and go away

the only real option to be real useful in guild runs is bombs and bombs had in my mind to say , one mistake and out .

P.S. and the mistake is the counting of cool-downs of course .

Reborn.2934:

@insanemaniac.2456

aoe damage is passing or not the stealth ?

i dont understand this question

when the passive stealth pop up can this help engie stay alive from aoe damage in front-line ?

yes. its a 5 sec stealth. you prolly wont be immob’ed for more than 1 sec, allowing you all the time in the world to reposition. it doesnt stop them from aoeing, no, but youll be able to sidestep.

as i said to play the engie is useful only in support role to protect the damage dealers ( ele , necro ,memsers . thieves) . if he try to fight with melee "ball " one mistake and he is out . nothing can save him and he can only be useful with bombs that are melee aoe weapons in fact that can blasted . i am not sure for elixir gun if it pops the retaliation . but flamethrower and grenades pop retaliation and he can’t use them as mainly weapons and pistol in main hand has very poor for raw damage . only blind is useful from pistol , fire and go away

the only real option to be real useful in guild runs is bombs and bombs had in my mind to say , one mistake and out .

P.S. and the mistake is the counting of cool-downs of course .

you can say the same thing for anyone in the melee ball. if a guard makes 1 mistake, he has to blow his heal and his elite and maybe even stand your ground to walk out of it. if a warrior makes 1 mistake, his endure pain procs and he has to sword leap out (if that wasnt his mistake in the first place). this is a weak argument. slick shoes bomb engis can build to take just as much strong passive defense as wars and guards. but no one seriously plays engi as front line so none of you melee ball people know that, and youd rather stick to the status quo when the meta ready to change.

Off-topic, but since when Warriors are using Endure Pain in a frontliner build?

@insanemaniac.2456

i don’t want continue the debate . we have different opinions and i would like ask from anyone that think there is position for engies in guild raid in front-line to give all the build and some proves like a CURRENT video to help guilds make the choise to pickup a engie for their raids.

until this build and the video i will share an old video ( 1 1/2 year old video ) when the stability matters : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=876g5BiZXqA

now with stability changes is just a suicide to run within enemies melee train . i think we can agree at least with that .

wolfineer that plays a lot engie from the beginning i am sure he had a find a way to play the engie in guild runs .

check by yourself at : http://www.wolfineer.com/wvw/

p.s. every time that tried to test slick shoes to save myself i died …. can you bring a living proof after stability changes ( video ) of slick shoes usage against enemy zerg ball please ?

Engi doesn’t fit the wvw meta because she can only control a small area and since wvw is an open map, the area of control afforded by the engi is easily dismissed. Whereas pvp is about controlling small areas, so engi thrives in this arena.

coglin.1867:

One thing I do notice, is that it seems like an odd argument to me, BlackDevil, to suggest warrior does X better, ele does Y better, and guardian does Z better. If engineer can do good at all of it, does it matter if 3 professions combined can do it “better”?

Yes, actually, because the Engineer has to replace something. When every class and player has a role, a jack-of-all-trades that is only “good” at the things it can do pales in comparison to something that is “great” or “excellent” at what it does, even if the Engineer is “good” at more things than the other class is “great” at.

tldr;
Engi can fit in, like any class, in a guild group vs blobs.
Engi is not worth getting over any other class when looking at limited numbers such as in GvG.

Mentality is what its all about, we recently switched in an engi , they work extremely well in our comp, even [Re] Rerolled used an engineer, don’t even bother with the meta.

More often then not the commander has a vision and thats how its gonna be, if he doesnt see an engi in that vision ,it may not happen.

Dezert Stormz.7248:

Mentality is what its all about, we recently switched in an engi , they work extremely well in our comp, even [Re] Rerolled used an engineer, don’t even bother with the meta.

More often then not the commander has a vision and thats how its gonna be, if he doesnt see an engi in that vision ,it may not happen.

There are also some solid commanders that lead on engineers. As well as mesmers, rangers, as well.

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

Your either first or your last when it comes to a spot in the meta. Anet does their best to balance all the classes but even if the difference was less then .1% it would matter to some. Player skill can trump the value of a particular class, but if that skilled player was on a meta class it would probably be a better raid comp.

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

The meta is what is perceived to be best. Every time I hear someone preach GWEN I shudder hoping they aren’t on my server. GWEN is optimal most of the time but there are some builds and strategies that break the meta.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

The meta is what is perceived to be best. Every time I hear someone preach GWEN I shudder hoping they aren’t on my server. GWEN is optimal most of the time but there are some builds and strategies that break the meta.

That… is a contradiction. You cannot counter every possible scenario anymore than you can do open field 20v80 and expect to survive. GWEN however is optimal most of the time as you say, hence its the best composition. Strategy can break any group so that isnt really a consideration.

Same reason the thief is considered the best roamer, except he pops like a balloon if he meets someone built to counter it. It doesnt change the fact he is still the best roamer.

Dawdler.8521:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

The meta is what is perceived to be best. Every time I hear someone preach GWEN I shudder hoping they aren’t on my server. GWEN is optimal most of the time but there are some builds and strategies that break the meta.

That… is a contradiction. You cannot counter every possible scenario anymore than you can do open field 20v80 and expect to survive. GWEN however is optimal most of the time as you say, hence its the best composition. Strategy can break any group so that isnt really a consideration.

Same reason the thief is considered the best roamer, except he pops like a balloon if he meets someone built to counter it. It doesnt change the fact he is still the best roamer.

How is strategy not a consideration? To run your GWEN you use certain strategies yes? Create a party with 2 engi, 1 ele and a thief. Follow the zerg but split off when the zergs hit heads. Use the terrain and where your tag is at to unload your aoe while the thief keeps stragglers away from you. As long as you don’t get caught in bad positioning with no way out you just bombed the enemy zerg with stupid amounts of damage while able to maintain pretty much any field you want.

This is what I meant by what is perceived to be best. I’m one of the guys who doesn’t understand why I rarely see a ranged and a melee tag in the same zerg. I don’t understand why more players don’t party up to split off from the main zerg staying with it and damaging the enemy zerg while being self sufficient.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Dawdler.8521:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

The meta is what is perceived to be best. Every time I hear someone preach GWEN I shudder hoping they aren’t on my server. GWEN is optimal most of the time but there are some builds and strategies that break the meta.

That… is a contradiction. You cannot counter every possible scenario anymore than you can do open field 20v80 and expect to survive. GWEN however is optimal most of the time as you say, hence its the best composition. Strategy can break any group so that isnt really a consideration.

Same reason the thief is considered the best roamer, except he pops like a balloon if he meets someone built to counter it. It doesnt change the fact he is still the best roamer.

How is strategy not a consideration? To run your GWEN you use certain strategies yes? Create a party with 2 engi, 1 ele and a thief. Follow the zerg but split off when the zergs hit heads. Use the terrain and where your tag is at to unload your aoe while the thief keeps stragglers away from you. As long as you don’t get caught in bad positioning with no way out you just bombed the enemy zerg with stupid amounts of damage while able to maintain pretty much any field you want.

This is what I meant by what is perceived to be best. I’m one of the guys who doesn’t understand why I rarely see a ranged and a melee tag in the same zerg. I don’t understand why more players don’t party up to split off from the main zerg staying with it and damaging the enemy zerg while being self sufficient.

The backline (the EN in GWEN) don’t stay on the tag, neither do the gank squad

Could it not be possible to run a HGH engi in the leader party to give boons or clear conditions in a GvG situation to counter leader focus? or would a D/D Ele do this better with aura share and the protection stacking and water 5?

I don’t know much about engi’s other than a few builds

Supposed to be the meta/gwen killer… doesn’t see anything else besides blobs running in 1 ball.
Yep, this forum keeps surprising me every time.

lightson.2310:

Could it not be possible to run a HGH engi in the leader party to give boons or clear conditions in a GvG situation to counter leader focus? or would a D/D Ele do this better with aura share and the protection stacking and water 5?

I don’t know much about engi’s other than a few builds

How does that counter leader focus, if all warriors and guards do is the exact same you just mentioned. (support wise of course.)

BlackDevil.9268:

lightson.2310:

Could it not be possible to run a HGH engi in the leader party to give boons or clear conditions in a GvG situation to counter leader focus? or would a D/D Ele do this better with aura share and the protection stacking and water 5?

I don’t know much about engi’s other than a few builds

How does that counter leader focus, if all warriors and guards do is the exact same you just mentioned. (support wise of course.)

Perhaps I could have worded it better – to help counter the leader focus.

And i mean through the use of elixir’s being thrown at the leader to clear his condi’s quick, but it would only do so much i guess. But the boon share is always nice, but as you said warriors and guards can do it better