Guild Wars 2

lightson.2310:

BlackDevil.9268:

lightson.2310:

Could it not be possible to run a HGH engi in the leader party to give boons or clear conditions in a GvG situation to counter leader focus? or would a D/D Ele do this better with aura share and the protection stacking and water 5?

I don’t know much about engi’s other than a few builds

How does that counter leader focus, if all warriors and guards do is the exact same you just mentioned. (support wise of course.)

Perhaps I could have worded it better – to help counter the leader focus.

And i mean through the use of elixir’s being thrown at the leader to clear his condi’s quick, but it would only do so much i guess. But the boon share is always nice, but as you said warriors and guards can do it better

no, too much delay and the aoes are too small. condi hgh is a niche gank pick at best and power hgh wont find a place.

Only thing that somewhat counters leaderfocus is going full tank and stealthing a lot. Maybe revenant new leader class inc?

BlackDevil.9268:

Only thing that somewhat counters leaderfocus is going full tank and stealthing a lot. Maybe revenant new leader class inc?

gosh, thats something engi can do really well

Thief can do it better

thief doesnt have invulns

What does that have to do with who can stealth the leader better…

being the leader, not stealthing the leader

I’m just gonna quote myself now since people can’t read aparently:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

BlackDevil.9268:

I’m just gonna quote myself now since people can’t read aparently:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

Why do you suggest folks are weak readers simply because they disagree with you? You can have a discussion without backhanded comments.

When you PIN up, you do not have to have an engineer if you don’t like. Speaking of which, how often do you PIN up?

I find the engineers pull with magnet, ranged AoE with grenades, AoE cleanse with ED to be very valuable.

Sigh… in case you didn’t notice, you just proved me right with that what you just said.
You want me to quote the exact same I just did 30 minutes ago? Look at the thread name/question, now look at your reply, now look at the title, now back to your reply. Sadly, your reply doesn’t relate to the title.

coglin.1867:

BlackDevil.9268:

I’m just gonna quote myself now since people can’t read aparently:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

Why do you suggest folks are weak readers simply because they disagree with you? You can have a discussion without backhanded comments.

When you PIN up, you do not have to have an engineer if you don’t like. Speaking of which, how often do you PIN up?

I find the engineers pull with magnet, ranged AoE with grenades, AoE cleanse with ED to be very valuable.

sigh
Valuable =/= The Best.
Meta is The Best according to a lot of ppl.
Valuable is not the best, that’s something viable, not useless build. It will not make it the best nor meta.
BTW Personal Attacks are OK now? Or is it not a “backhanded comment”?
“Speaking of which, how often do you PIN up? "

I PIN up about twice a week for 4 or more hour stretches. Sometimes more days, depends on my life schedule. I do not particularly believe in the GWEN theory, I have fun, feel I do well with the fights, we are very productive, and did I mention having fun.

You? As well I noticed blackdevil, that you avoided answering the question.

Engi pin tanks the most, has smoke on demand access, water on demand, Invulnerable and a possible rampage roll to help things even more. Sure you don’t deal a lot of damage but a pin not dying is a lot better than a guard getting engi pulled and bursting every cooldown to stay alive.

Don’t really listen to “GvG” guilds coglin because they refuse to try something new.

coglin.1867:

I PIN up about twice a week for 4 or more hour stretches. Sometimes more days, depends on my life schedule. I do not particularly believe in the GWEN theory, I have fun, feel I do well with the fights, we are very productive, and did I mention having fun.

You? As well I noticed blackdevil, that you avoided answering the question.

And this whole relates to the topic in what way?…
I avoided the question as it was irrelevant.

Vermillion.4061:

Engi pin tanks the most, has smoke on demand access, water on demand, Invulnerable and a possible rampage roll to help things even more. Sure you don’t deal a lot of damage but a pin not dying is a lot better than a guard getting engi pulled and bursting every cooldown to stay alive.

Oh, you mean by the fact that guardian not only has acces to a lot more stability, self healing, condition cleanse, armor and arguably more ’’immunity’s’’ counting their heal along with that, it’s also dealing more damage and has a much more reliable way of telling if his melee is surviving or not.

You ever heard of stability? Engi pulled is more likely gonna happen to an engineer than a guardian.

In PvP WTS, one top guardian ran a hammer medi build in a high profile spot. It became meta…the build did not change, how it was played in a meta fashion was revealed. Good players define the meta. If you are content being sheep, please continue business as usual, aka GWEN.

BlackDevil.9268:

And this whole relates to the topic in what way?…
I avoided the question as it was irrelevant.

I felt it realavent do to your statements in which you suggesting what a commander does or does not want. As well as what you do or do not want other groups to do. To make those claims, I felt your experience, or possibly lack there of, was relavent.

coglin.1867:

BlackDevil.9268:

And this whole relates to the topic in what way?…
I avoided the question as it was irrelevant.

I felt it realavent do to your statements in which you suggesting what a commander does or does not want. As well as what you do or do not want other groups to do. To make those claims, I felt your experience, or possibly lack there of, was relavent.

Isn’t this slightly off topic?

Who cares if you tag up or not or if anyone tags up or not. The topic is about Engineer being meta or not.

Back to topic – Could it be possible to run an Engi in the FP over the D/D ele?

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Dawdler.8521:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

The meta is what is perceived to be best. Every time I hear someone preach GWEN I shudder hoping they aren’t on my server. GWEN is optimal most of the time but there are some builds and strategies that break the meta.

That… is a contradiction. You cannot counter every possible scenario anymore than you can do open field 20v80 and expect to survive. GWEN however is optimal most of the time as you say, hence its the best composition. Strategy can break any group so that isnt really a consideration.

Same reason the thief is considered the best roamer, except he pops like a balloon if he meets someone built to counter it. It doesnt change the fact he is still the best roamer.

How is strategy not a consideration? To run your GWEN you use certain strategies yes? Create a party with 2 engi, 1 ele and a thief. Follow the zerg but split off when the zergs hit heads. Use the terrain and where your tag is at to unload your aoe while the thief keeps stragglers away from you. As long as you don’t get caught in bad positioning with no way out you just bombed the enemy zerg with stupid amounts of damage while able to maintain pretty much any field you want.

This is what I meant by what is perceived to be best. I’m one of the guys who doesn’t understand why I rarely see a ranged and a melee tag in the same zerg. I don’t understand why more players don’t party up to split off from the main zerg staying with it and damaging the enemy zerg while being self sufficient.

Wat?

You just described a ranged party in a GWEN setup except you use a weaker class combo. Replace the 2 engies and thief with 3 necros and you got far more devastating bombing potential.

GWEN is not mindless zerging. Its melee parties (GWN), ranged parties (EN) and focus parties (thieves, mesmers, rangers, whatevs) working together. Having the ranged party tag up is common so you know where where the primary backline is (or focus party).

BlackDevil.9268:

I’m just gonna quote myself now since people can’t read aparently:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

no, i dont have poor reading comprehension. look:

you said, to mitigate leader focus, you need full tank mode and stealths.

i said, engi can do “full tank mode and stealths” really well. but you misinterpreted my statement, thinking i meant “to give out stealths” and not “self stealth.”

Dawdler.8521:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Dawdler.8521:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

The meta is what is perceived to be best. Every time I hear someone preach GWEN I shudder hoping they aren’t on my server. GWEN is optimal most of the time but there are some builds and strategies that break the meta.

That… is a contradiction. You cannot counter every possible scenario anymore than you can do open field 20v80 and expect to survive. GWEN however is optimal most of the time as you say, hence its the best composition. Strategy can break any group so that isnt really a consideration.

Same reason the thief is considered the best roamer, except he pops like a balloon if he meets someone built to counter it. It doesnt change the fact he is still the best roamer.

How is strategy not a consideration? To run your GWEN you use certain strategies yes? Create a party with 2 engi, 1 ele and a thief. Follow the zerg but split off when the zergs hit heads. Use the terrain and where your tag is at to unload your aoe while the thief keeps stragglers away from you. As long as you don’t get caught in bad positioning with no way out you just bombed the enemy zerg with stupid amounts of damage while able to maintain pretty much any field you want.

This is what I meant by what is perceived to be best. I’m one of the guys who doesn’t understand why I rarely see a ranged and a melee tag in the same zerg. I don’t understand why more players don’t party up to split off from the main zerg staying with it and damaging the enemy zerg while being self sufficient.

Wat?

You just described a ranged party in a GWEN setup except you use a weaker class combo. Replace the 2 engies and thief with 3 necros and you got far more devastating bombing potential.

GWEN is not mindless zerging. Its melee parties (GWN), ranged parties (EN) and focus parties (thieves, mesmers, rangers, whatevs) working together. Having the ranged party tag up is common so you know where where the primary backline is (or focus party).

Sorry I’ll keep my 4 man composition. 13 blast finishers and almost every field we could want. I understand that GWEN is not mindless zerging – been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. I stand by my statement that the meta for the most part is all in your head.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I stand by my statement that the meta for the most part is all in your head.

Couldn’t agree more. It amazes me how much posters simply regurgitate what they read from some other random poster. One week someone uses the term “cancer” and then you can see who all of the sheeple hipsters are, because they use that word in every other post from then on. The see a “GWEN” thread that I wager most do not even fully understand, and they hipster spam it in every other post as well. It is unfortunate to see such limited ability to think for ones self and work outside the box.

The fact that in a game (games are supposed to be fun right?), players would rather flock into the herd, rather then think outside the box and have some fun. Some folks should try getting 40 or so guild mates on. Have a little fun and all play on the same profession. Every time you do this, use a different profession.

I will post the video here later, but I have some great footage of our thief night and engineer night (T1 server), in which our thief or engineer force was so baffling to the GWEN group guild forces, that they had no clue how to deal with the different game play and were destroyed repeatedly. My weekly video evidence of this, suggest to me that GWEN is over hyped to an irrational extent.

coglin.1867:

BlackDevil.9268:

And this whole relates to the topic in what way?…
I avoided the question as it was irrelevant.

I felt it realavent do to your statements in which you suggesting what a commander does or does not want. As well as what you do or do not want other groups to do. To make those claims, I felt your experience, or possibly lack there of, was relavent.

Talking about personal attacks lol. I find it funny you call me out on lack of experience. What guild are you in man? Destruction Engineer Raid Power [DERP]?

Back to topic – Could it be possible to run an Engi in the FP over the D/D ele?

D/d ele is used just as much as engi probable, none.

insanemaniac.2456:

no, i dont have poor reading comprehension. look:
you said, to mitigate leader focus, you need full tank mode and stealths.
i said, engi can do “full tank mode and stealths” really well. but you misinterpreted my statement, thinking i meant “to give out stealths” and not “self stealth.”

Except for the fact that an engi actually can’t tank that good and surely not as good as a guardian while you can already gain the stealth 100x more often and better when used in coordination with a thief.
And please, don’t come up again with these engi commanders before I have to quote myself for the 3rd time…

Flyphish.6398:

In PvP WTS, one top guardian ran a hammer medi build in a high profile spot. It became meta…the build did not change, how it was played in a meta fashion was revealed. Good players define the meta. If you are content being sheep, please continue business as usual, aka GWEN.

That’s like comparing apples with pears. PvP is the main focus for the balance team at anet, that’s why there are much more changes going on in the Meta (which are already poor) than in WvW and also there is much more room for changes since all classes (should) be equally balanced. With this meaning it should come down to: are you good at class X, then you can make it work in PvP. Also a bad example, since medi guard is only the meta for that certain class and not necessarily required in a team comp as only +/- 25% of the top teams run a medi guard.

BlackDevil.9268:

Except for the fact that an engi actually can’t tank that good and surely not as good as a guardian while you can already gain the stealth 100x more often and better when used in coordination with a thief.

no, surely not. of course engi cant tank as good as a guardian. good thing your mind is already made up about that so you dont even need to try.

your closedmindedness is getting really old.

insanemaniac.2456:

BlackDevil.9268:

Except for the fact that an engi actually can’t tank that good and surely not as good as a guardian while you can already gain the stealth 100x more often and better when used in coordination with a thief.

no, surely not. of course engi cant tank as good as a guardian. good thing your mind is already made up about that so you dont even need to try.

your closedmindedness is getting really old.

No here’s the deal: An engineer is required to have guardians and warriors in his party to keep him alive while a guardian can keep himself alive already and doesn’t always need to rely on his guardians to have stability. Rotation wise you will be lacking a lot stability if you go for an engineer instead of a guardian.
So in theory, a guardian is already better than an engineer and no one has proven that wrong in practice yet. So yes, it’s quite easy for me to say Guardian > engineer as leader. Go prove me wrong with actual arguments, cause I haven’t seen any besides ’’invurnability’’.

Edit: if there’s anyone close minded about his profession it’s you. Engi is the best! Yet, no one bothered with it.. I wonder why… Oh that’s right, because people have bothered with it and concluded it’s just not as good. But seriously, keep playing the way you want, but don’t expect it to become meta unless you actually come beat an actual guild with it.

BlackDevil.9268:

No here’s the deal: An engineer is required to have guardians and warriors in his party to keep him alive while a guardian can keep himself alive already and doesn’t always need to rely on his guardians to have stability. .

That is not true in the least. As we have established you do not have any commander experience, will you at least share your engineer experience? It is a necessary question considering you are making statements that are inaccurate to my experience.

BlackDevil.9268:

Rotation wise you will be lacking a lot stability if you go for an engineer instead of a guardian. .

Not much difference really.

Also, stability isn’t of near the value of what it once was, and multiple players can have it removed entirely with one single pulsing AoE CC.

BlackDevil.9268:

So in theory, a guardian is already better than an engineer and no one has proven that wrong in practice yet. So yes, it’s quite easy for me to say Guardian > engineer as leader. Go prove me wrong with actual arguments, cause I haven’t seen any besides ’’invurnability’’..

A. This is not a “is the engineer better then a guardian for tanking thread”…Please stay on topic

B. That is not what “theory” means. You cannot use theory and “proven” in the same sentence in that matter. By definition, theory defines it as unproven.

C. We already established that you are not a leader, and do not PIN up as a commander. So where do you get off suggesting what is best suited for the position when you have no experience to make such a determination?

BlackDevil.9268:

Edit: if there’s anyone close minded about his profession it’s you. Engi is the best! Yet, no one bothered with it.. I wonder why… Oh that’s right, because people have bothered with it and concluded it’s just not as good. But seriously, keep playing the way you want, but don’t expect it to become meta unless you actually come beat an actual guild with it.

I do not see anyone stating engineer is the best. Please do not disingenuously claim that those who disagree with you are saying that.

As well, do not claim “people have bothered with it” or people have played it. You for example, shared you have no time as a commander, and have not even suggested how many hours you have on the engineer, if any, and are making statements as to what it can or cannot do as a profession.

You can literally beat a guild just fine with nothing but engineers. We have done so with literally nothing but all of a single profession, and done so with every profession. We have posted videos of it here, in the past, so I am baffled as to how you claim it isn’t done or is entirely difficult.

BlackDevil.9268:

What guild are you in man? Destruction Engineer Raid Power [DERP]?

I am in [SG] Shadow Gypsies is a casual playtime, hardcore PvP/RvR guild that has been together for over TWO DECADES and has been pvping since Meridian 59 in ’94. A dedicated motley crew of friends intent on wrecking your day to alleviate their real life workplace frustrations. Our player base is “old gamer.” We do not tolerate drama queens, cheats, nubs, n00bs, l33ts, hax, or whiney kittenes. We PvP on the internet to kill them, as we can not legally kill them IRL. If this is you…welcome home my friend.

BlackDevil.9268:

coglin.1867:

BlackDevil.9268:

And this whole relates to the topic in what way?…
I avoided the question as it was irrelevant.

I felt it realavent do to your statements in which you suggesting what a commander does or does not want. As well as what you do or do not want other groups to do. To make those claims, I felt your experience, or possibly lack there of, was relavent.

Talking about personal attacks lol. I find it funny you call me out on lack of experience. What guild are you in man? Destruction Engineer Raid Power [DERP]?

Back to topic – Could it be possible to run an Engi in the FP over the D/D ele?

D/d ele is used just as much as engi probable, none.

insanemaniac.2456:

no, i dont have poor reading comprehension. look:
you said, to mitigate leader focus, you need full tank mode and stealths.
i said, engi can do “full tank mode and stealths” really well. but you misinterpreted my statement, thinking i meant “to give out stealths” and not “self stealth.”

Except for the fact that an engi actually can’t tank that good and surely not as good as a guardian while you can already gain the stealth 100x more often and better when used in coordination with a thief.
And please, don’t come up again with these engi commanders before I have to quote myself for the 3rd time…

Flyphish.6398:

In PvP WTS, one top guardian ran a hammer medi build in a high profile spot. It became meta…the build did not change, how it was played in a meta fashion was revealed. Good players define the meta. If you are content being sheep, please continue business as usual, aka GWEN.

That’s like comparing apples with pears. PvP is the main focus for the balance team at anet, that’s why there are much more changes going on in the Meta (which are already poor) than in WvW and also there is much more room for changes since all classes (should) be equally balanced. With this meaning it should come down to: are you good at class X, then you can make it work in PvP. Also a bad example, since medi guard is only the meta for that certain class and not necessarily required in a team comp as only +/- 25% of the top teams run a medi guard.

What happened to oranges?

The number of teams running it is irrelevant, it is a top tier build when used properly. To your other point, you just repeated what I said…If you are good with the class you can make it work, not sure what you are trying to say…

Side point, the meta is less strict in wvw due to the low mechanical skill required and the flexibility enabled by consumables and runes/sigils not available in PvP.

Flyphish.6398:

BlackDevil.9268:

coglin.1867:

BlackDevil.9268:

And this whole relates to the topic in what way?…
I avoided the question as it was irrelevant.

I felt it realavent do to your statements in which you suggesting what a commander does or does not want. As well as what you do or do not want other groups to do. To make those claims, I felt your experience, or possibly lack there of, was relavent.

Talking about personal attacks lol. I find it funny you call me out on lack of experience. What guild are you in man? Destruction Engineer Raid Power [DERP]?

Back to topic – Could it be possible to run an Engi in the FP over the D/D ele?

D/d ele is used just as much as engi probable, none.

insanemaniac.2456:

no, i dont have poor reading comprehension. look:
you said, to mitigate leader focus, you need full tank mode and stealths.
i said, engi can do “full tank mode and stealths” really well. but you misinterpreted my statement, thinking i meant “to give out stealths” and not “self stealth.”

Except for the fact that an engi actually can’t tank that good and surely not as good as a guardian while you can already gain the stealth 100x more often and better when used in coordination with a thief.
And please, don’t come up again with these engi commanders before I have to quote myself for the 3rd time…

Flyphish.6398:

In PvP WTS, one top guardian ran a hammer medi build in a high profile spot. It became meta…the build did not change, how it was played in a meta fashion was revealed. Good players define the meta. If you are content being sheep, please continue business as usual, aka GWEN.

That’s like comparing apples with pears. PvP is the main focus for the balance team at anet, that’s why there are much more changes going on in the Meta (which are already poor) than in WvW and also there is much more room for changes since all classes (should) be equally balanced. With this meaning it should come down to: are you good at class X, then you can make it work in PvP. Also a bad example, since medi guard is only the meta for that certain class and not necessarily required in a team comp as only +/- 25% of the top teams run a medi guard.

What happened to oranges?

The number of teams running it is irrelevant, it is a top tier build when used properly. To your other point, you just repeated what I said…If you are good with the class you can make it work, not sure what you are trying to say…

Side point, the meta is less strict in wvw due to the low mechanical skill required and the flexibility enabled by consumables and runes/sigils not available in PvP.

The last point is a good one. If we take one extreme such as pve where encounters are fixed and largely predictable due to AI controlling the opposition, it is easy to calculate what is most optimal. I’m guessing people start to confuse meta with best because of this. WvW has a lot more variables to take into consideration and experience becomes more and more anecdotal. It is entirely possible that in player vs player environments, that people haven’t been able to take all variables into account and that is how medi hammer guardians suddenly became a thing.

Another thing is counters. If you took Composition A that wins 90% of the time against everything but Composition B which it loses to 90% of the time. but composition B only wins 30% of the time against everything else, where does it place them? A is still best, but B can exist because of A since many people will use A even though in a vaccum B is not as good. B can sometimes be used because people use A, and then other options which would have normally been bad can be used against people who try to use B to counter A.

Anyhow, tl;dr aside, I think to get engineers to work here would require them to provide a role that would be effective against known zerg compositions and tactics, rather than comparing them as mutually exclusive with another slot.

@coglin:

Do you play a GWEN class aswell? You really should and see for yourself why the engineer lacks in comparison.

Don’t get me wrong i love the engineer and ofc it can somewhat work in a pug blob with 50 other people but it really doesnt shine in comparison to the GWEN classes.

And yea you can lead pug blobs with it ofc no problem, heck ive seen thieves lead pug blobs with success somewhat, doesnt mean it is anywhere near meta

Im curios what build u run aswell? How do you pressure?

Bombs are downright terrible and nades are okish but reta just kills you (maybe that changed though, havent tried to blob with my engineer in a while)

Sizzle Hint.1820:

@coglin:

Do you play a GWEN class aswell? You really should and see for yourself why the engineer lacks in comparison.

Yeah, I do play all the professions at times. At some point with in the first 6 months around release, I leveled each of the 8 professions to 80. Mostly in WvW. Back then, uplevels were common, if not the norm, and leveling was a common thing in their. I did so to learn all of the profession, both to know how to play as each, as well as playing against them.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Don’t get me wrong i love the engineer and ofc it can somewhat work in a pug blob with 50 other people but it really doesnt shine in comparison to the GWEN classes.

Yeah it kind of does. I mean, you do not have to agree. Judging from the perspective you portray though, I suspect you do not do well at stepping out side of the box. I, on the other hand, do not enjoy stale play in a stale meta. I have fun creating my own and thriving with it.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

And yea you can lead pug blobs with it ofc no problem, heck ive seen thieves lead pug blobs with success somewhat, doesnt mean it is anywhere near meta

I have seen at least one very good commander, of each profession, thrive at it. So much so, that the meta on their servers or those the fight, feels it so strongly, that they feel the need to make adjustments to compensate.

When you thrive in such a manner that your enemies change there composition and game play, it is by definition “meta”.

With all of the regurgitation of buzz words between forums post, I would bet 95% of the posters here couldn’t define what the definition of “meta” is. I would wager 25% wouldn’t understand it fully after using a dictionary. I say that with confidence, because I see it used incorrectly on a regular bases.

That aside, my experience of my guild all playing on one profession (different every week) has already shown those with an open mind, how well you can chew through enemy parties of equal size, as it seems all of the “meta” followers are not equipped to handle something outside of that.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Im curios what build u run aswell? How do you pressure?

Bombs are downright terrible and nades are okish but reta just kills you (maybe that changed though, havent tried to blob with my engineer in a while)

Well, I would gladly share my builds I use, or how we utilize the profession if various forms or in composition with other professions. But I feel when you went directly to bashing skills, I do not feel you want to have a serious discussion.

The manner in which you present your opinion as statements as if they were fact, I feel you are confusing subjective opinion with that of objective fact.

The medi-guardian was a good example used earlier, it was rarely used until a skilled player did some great things with it, then everyone followed suit. I am not asking anyone to follow suit with what I saw, I was simply responding to the OP and participating in the conversation as it flowed from there. I am not asking anyone to agree with me or try anything new. I will do that myself, and enjoy it and thrive with it. Everyone else is welcome to play GWEN and step or not step outside the box, to what ever degree they please.

coglin.1867:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

@coglin:

Do you play a GWEN class aswell? You really should and see for yourself why the engineer lacks in comparison.

Yeah, I do play all the professions at times. At some point with in the first 6 months around release, I leveled each of the 8 professions to 80. Mostly in WvW. Back then, uplevels were common, if not the norm, and leveling was a common thing in their. I did so to learn all of the profession, both to know how to play as each, as well as playing against them.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Don’t get me wrong i love the engineer and ofc it can somewhat work in a pug blob with 50 other people but it really doesnt shine in comparison to the GWEN classes.

Yeah it kind of does. I mean, you do not have to agree. Judging from the perspective you portray though, I suspect you do not do well at stepping out side of the box. I, on the other hand, do not enjoy stale play in a stale meta. I have fun creating my own and thriving with it.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

And yea you can lead pug blobs with it ofc no problem, heck ive seen thieves lead pug blobs with success somewhat, doesnt mean it is anywhere near meta

I have seen at least one very good commander, of each profession, thrive at it. So much so, that the meta on their servers or those the fight, feels it so strongly, that they feel the need to make adjustments to compensate.

When you thrive in such a manner that your enemies change there composition and game play, it is by definition “meta”.

With all of the regurgitation of buzz words between forums post, I would bet 95% of the posters here couldn’t define what the definition of “meta” is. I would wager 25% wouldn’t understand it fully after using a dictionary. I say that with confidence, because I see it used incorrectly on a regular bases.

That aside, my experience of my guild all playing on one profession (different every week) has already shown those with an open mind, how well you can chew through enemy parties of equal size, as it seems all of the “meta” followers are not equipped to handle something outside of that.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Im curios what build u run aswell? How do you pressure?

Bombs are downright terrible and nades are okish but reta just kills you (maybe that changed though, havent tried to blob with my engineer in a while)

Well, I would gladly share my builds I use, or how we utilize the profession if various forms or in composition with other professions. But I feel when you went directly to bashing skills, I do not feel you want to have a serious discussion.

The manner in which you present your opinion as statements as if they were fact, I feel you are confusing subjective opinion with that of objective fact.

Wow why get so defensive? I just told you i love the engineer and it would be awesome if it actually fit into the meta (yes i know what it means… but nice try to insult me there)

sad thing is, it doesnt.

See everything works when you run around with 80 people… but when you actually fight competetivly (how the kitten do you spell it lol?) equal numbers against a proper composition there is no point to bring an engineer over another guardian / warrior / necro / ele… even in the focus groups that seem to be used these days another thief / mes would just be much more useful because they are way more slippery thanks to stealth… (i know engi can stealth but it takes some preperation with smoke fields aside from the toolbelt one but that has a pretty high CD) + engineer doesnt nearly have the same reliable burst as M/T do.

when i used to blob with my engi i used a power spec with bombs and nades and it was just downright terrible compared to my guardian…

When my old guild was still around and we were big into GvG i remember one of my friends who mained the engineer always laughed at our leader for bringing him on his engineer into the GvGs after he played a guardian because he felt so useless… mind you that guy loved the class to death

I am not, nor did I get defensive. Neither did I try to insult you in any way. Your reading that into it yourself. As well, apparently you made your post, as I was making an edit. As I said though, your reading into it a little to hard to reach the conclusions you are of my intentions.

If you took it as being defensive, I would gather your doing so because you are repeatedly stating your opinion as if it were fact, and making repeated declarations rather then statements of opinion. that is on you, not me.

I am simply sharing my opinion, based on my experiences. Simply because I do not accept your statements as doctrine (which they are not, they are simply your opinion) does not mean I am being defensive. I could equally read into your statements in the same fashion, but that doesn’t benefit the conversation.

I will say one thing, you do make a good deal of statements of fact, in which you offer no actual evidence to support that, where as it has had evidence in previous discussions of this matter to suggest you are incorrect. Such as your statement that an engineer does not have reliable burst as M/T.

Why do you assume that is the only value of an engineer is to replace a thief or a Mesmer? How do you compare the single target value of those professions to one that can do 3 times the damage, only spread among five or more targets?

Part of the issue here, as I see it, is that you have made a few attempts at making one to one comparisons, then make a declaration based on that, and not offered any evidence to support your opinion, yet you word it perfectly definitively.

Of course they are my opinion when did i say it is fact?

Maybe i should put a big fat IMO at the end of my post? I think it’s quite obvious though? Maybe not.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maybe i should put a big fat IMO at the end of my post? I think it’s quite obvious though? Maybe not.

i usually try to

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Of course they are my opinion when did i say it is fact?

Maybe i should put a big fat IMO at the end of my post? I think it’s quite obvious though? Maybe not.

Indeed, perhaps you should. There is a reason the phrase “definitive statement” exist. It is likely that no one discussing anything here with you, has any idea who you are. Nor are any of the obligated to “assume” what you meant. We can only read what you actually say, not what you retrospectively say you mean.

You know what they say : “Say what you mean, and mean what you say”

coglin.1867:

I am not, nor did I get defensive. Neither did I try to insult you in any way. Your reading that into it yourself. As well, apparently you made your post, as I was making an edit. As I said though, your reading into it a little to hard to reach the conclusions you are of my intentions.

If you took it as being defensive, I would gather your doing so because you are repeatedly stating your opinion as if it were fact, and making repeated declarations rather then statements of opinion. that is on you, not me.

I am simply sharing my opinion, based on my experiences. Simply because I do not accept your statements as doctrine (which they are not, they are simply your opinion) does not mean I am being defensive. I could equally read into your statements in the same fashion, but that doesn’t benefit the conversation.

I will say one thing, you do make a good deal of statements of fact, in which you offer no actual evidence to support that, where as it has had evidence in previous discussions of this matter to suggest you are incorrect. Such as your statement that an engineer does not have reliable burst as M/T.

Why do you assume that is the only value of an engineer is to replace a thief or a Mesmer? How do you compare the single target value of those professions to one that can do 3 times the damage, only spread among five or more targets?

Part of the issue here, as I see it, is that you have made a few attempts at making one to one comparisons, then make a declaration based on that, and not offered any evidence to support your opinion, yet you word it perfectly definitively.

To be honest i didnt post in this thread to start an argument with you i just stated my opinion as much as you do. People can make out with it whatever they want. Maybe it wasnt clear that it is indeed my own personal opinion, for that i apologize.

However i’ll leave some food for thought you can think about. Why does none of the top guilds run an engineer in their GvG comp? I guess they all suck and you must know some stuff about the class they don’t.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

However i’ll leave some food for thought you can think about. Why does none of the top guilds run an engineer in their GvG comp? I guess they all suck and you must know some stuff about the class they don’t.

Did someone claim they all suck or that they know something those guilds don’t? Or is that am implication you are making yourself?

Do you have a list of all of the top GvG guilds? Do you have a list of their roster and profession list for each guild? How did you determine them to be top in your claim?

Most importantly, what does GvG have to do with anything? This is a WvW subforum. Your arguments should likely be moved to the GvG section of the forums.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

However i’ll leave some food for thought you can think about. Why does none of the top guilds run an engineer in their GvG comp? I guess they all suck and you must know some stuff about the class they don’t.

Did someone claim they all suck or that they know something those guilds don’t? Or is that am implication you are making yourself?

Do you have a list of all of the top GvG guilds? Do you have a list of their roster and profession list for each guild? How did you determine them to be top in your claim?

Most importantly, what does GvG have to do with anything? This is a WvW subforum. Your arguments should likely be moved to the GvG section of the forums.

sigh of course it was an implication… people sometimes… seriously?

Maybe because i have friends who are in guilds who GvG frequently / know people who are part of the community? So far i’ve never heard of an engineer being used. I also used to be big into it when my guild was still around? We also used to run an engineer but like i pointed out earlier he himself told us everytime that it would be much smarter to replace his engineer with something else because it pales in comparison? Although that was before focus grps became a thing… maybe they have a niche spot there however IN MY PERSONAL OPINION i think you would be better off taking in another thief / mesmer.

Yes it is a WvW forum… i am sorry…

@OP:

Run whatever you like. The meta in WvW is outnumber your opponent 4:1 … everything works there. I sometimes run my pure glas shortbow thief and just spam 8k cluster at these poor guys trying to run away from our massive blob.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

However i’ll leave some food for thought you can think about. Why does none of the top guilds run an engineer in their GvG comp? I guess they all suck and you must know some stuff about the class they don’t.

Did someone claim they all suck or that they know something those guilds don’t? Or is that am implication you are making yourself?

Do you have a list of all of the top GvG guilds? Do you have a list of their roster and profession list for each guild? How did you determine them to be top in your claim?

Most importantly, what does GvG have to do with anything? This is a WvW subforum. Your arguments should likely be moved to the GvG section of the forums.

sigh of course it was an implication… people sometimes… seriously?

Maybe because i have friends who are in guilds who GvG frequently / know people who are part of the community? So far i’ve never heard of an engineer being used. I also used to be big into it when my guild was still around? We also used to run an engineer but like i pointed out earlier he himself told us everytime that it would be much smarter to replace his engineer with something else because it pales in comparison? Although that was before focus grps became a thing… maybe they have a niche spot there however IN MY PERSONAL OPINION i think you would be better off taking in another thief / mesmer.

Yes it is a WvW forum… i am sorry…

Lmao looks like you hit a soft spot there. Don’t worry about coglin and dancingmonkey, they’ll derail the thread by starting to argue about arguing whenever they hear something they don’t like in order to win some brownie points.

Zetsumei.4975:

Lmao looks like you hit a soft spot there. Don’t worry about coglin and dancingmonkey, they’ll derail the thread by starting to argue about arguing whenever they hear something they don’t like in order to win some brownie points.

nah, they dont do that when your point is strong. but you gotta throw some valid reasoning out there and show you arent just spouting things for the hell of it.

..like maybe as youre doing with this post :X

Your guild crappy engineer player have l2p issues so engineer doesn’t fit meta?

Just a quick thing to remember, engies have access to about 345934853409583058309* blasts and can do a good job of both making and blasting their own fields for effect.

My engie loves roaming and being with the zerg.

*not an exact number

Sizzle Hint.1820:

i remember one of my friends who mained the engineer always laughed at our leader for bringing him on his engineer into the GvGs after he played a guardian because he felt so useless… mind you that guy loved the class to death

Well lets address some specifics on statements of this nature for a second.

First and for most. If your “friend” has an opinion, let him post it. I have experience on bit these professions. Lets stick to speaking for ourselves bases on our our experiences shall we.

One of the largest reason GWEN has lost significant value, is the stability changes. That change lessened the value of guardian the most. You see, the value stability gave to a group was extremely strong. Going from any profession to one that had it in abundance is empowering. You became immune to entire sets of weapon skills and entire utility sets. Being able to apply it to multiple allies gave it that much more value and was that much more empowering.

That stability has no where near the value now. A single engineer can pop slick shoes. Run through a zerg. He can literally strip all of the stability that 5 guardians can apply. In T1 EB last night, I found it rather entertaining when we were going to cut the enemy off of getting into the portal. I was not commanding last night, and my guildy who was called for walls to block portal. We were still a distance away. I, Adam, and Lobo were all running SS/RB/BK so we used super speed, then rocket boots (RB are a native movement range of 900, 1200 with swiftness, and 1500 with super speed) to get into range quickly. The 3 of us pasted oil from SS around the portal. Out of 60-70 enemies, only 4 made it past and we demolished the rest. A few folks in TS were surprised. I said, "Hey, guardian walls only strip 1 stack of stability, slick shoes have the potential to strip all stacks from all who pass through it.

Where is your precious GWEN in situations like that? You see, this isn’t much of a discussion, in my opinion, before the stability changes. The problem is, one of the key component of what made GWEN so valuable and cohesive, was AoE stability and the fact that it was so reliable for a specific period of time. They change that functionality entirely, yet you still have sheeple arguing the exact same argument.

The arguments you keep making here start with “back when” and refer to an older time, in a no longer existing guild, and refer to GvG from a previous time.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Why does none of the top guilds run an engineer in their GvG comp? I guess they all suck and you must know some stuff about the class they don’t.

Possibly, and possibly not, but I am glad you think so enough to post it, thank you. Although I do find it interesting that you were the one who made all of the comments about being defensive, and here you are, making unfounded implications, when you reached a point in which in which your arguments have limited merits.

Perhaps I am smarter then them, perhaps I am not. I have been running PvP or RvR style guilds since the 90s. I have learned to adjust for changes, think outside the box, and have fun doing it, but you are making your arguments that are out dated.

Can you please post the build you are running? I am curious to try it out for myself tonight and see it first hand

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Can you please post the build you are running? I am curious to try it out for myself tonight and see it first hand

ive been running this while zerging on tc during ocx-ish (which means basically when jq’s giant blob logs in, bg kinda goes into vulture mode, and tc’s NA logs out… so its kinda hard to find even zerg fights). ive tried my knight/zerk backline/roaming set for more damage and its too squishy and i dont even notice the melandru effects. i have more soldier stuff but it didnt seem necessary to go full soldier, cele has a little more damage.

basically with this you wanna be first in and stay until you pop your S trait. you wanna predict your commander saying “bomb here” and be there as hes saying it putting down slicky. that can take some practice to get right and in the pirate ship thing we got going on a decent comm will feint a lot (especially against larger numbers) so it can be hard to find the right time to leap in. but if he has some sense of what you can do and he sees you leap in it can give him some conviction, and generally at worst you just proc your S and get out. magnetic shield gives extra insurance that you dont get pew pew’ed as you run back to your zerg and earth runes are cheap as hell. vamp runes are another option for the same thing but i rather like 50% protection duration with prot injection… you should have perma protection while diving even if you leap in with stab and the 6 bonus is a bit better than say forgeman runes. also dont dodge when you dive (when you dive unstealthed), youll get instantly stealthed cuz the first anyone does to a hero is immob them. make sure youre out of stealth before you leave dodge bombs, im kinda bad about that, like any normal engi is.

if you plan to command you might want something sillier like this with 3 invulns trololol, but tbh i think its gonna need hammer and if you arent on t1-2 during prime time the zergs might not be big enough to warrant dropping bombs for S. i havent tried this cuz i dont command, but its what id tinker with if i was gonna, and prolly make a couple changes … like keeping bombs maybe until HoT.