Guild Wars 2

Random.4691:

The glicko system is a failure, not the server system. How matchups are determined is a failure, not the server system. As far as rewards WvW would be just as fast if not faster if all sides agreed not to attack one another and just play musical keeps. There are plenty of ways to make the server system work while avoiding that garbage EotM system.

No the server system is a failure for exactly the reasons we can see now with the overall decline in population. It is inflexible, vulnerable to changes in population and population imbalances across timezones.

morrolan.9608:

No the server system is a failure for exactly the reasons we can see now with the overall decline in population. It is inflexible, vulnerable to changes in population and population imbalances across timezones.

How true.

Any time you see a dead map it is the fault of the server system.

Any population imbalance is the fault of the server system.

There’s certainly still a lot of people playing at any time of the day. They just can’t play together or fight each other because again it’s the fault of the server system.

Any population imbalance is inherit to the server design. However, one has to look for a way to fix the issue, perhaps by buffing scoring when there are only a few players online.

Getting rid of the server design would be a mistake as many servers fight competitively against eachother, removing this would severely impact WvW experiences. For example, in soccer two teams and their supporters usually have a healthy love/hate relationship which is what makes part of the game so interesting.

The most important thing to notice is this: I certainly would NOT like to see, for example, megaserver systems for WvW to ‘fix’ the population imbalance and would much rather like to see changes to the scoring systems.

morrolan.9608:

Random.4691:

The glicko system is a failure, not the server system. How matchups are determined is a failure, not the server system. As far as rewards WvW would be just as fast if not faster if all sides agreed not to attack one another and just play musical keeps. There are plenty of ways to make the server system work while avoiding that garbage EotM system.

No the server system is a failure for exactly the reasons we can see now with the overall decline in population. It is inflexible, vulnerable to changes in population and population imbalances across timezones.

They are both failures. Making 2 inflexible systems is where they went wrong and it will NEVER get fixed as it will be to costly to do so. They wanted to create a 24/7 system, but failed miserably due to keeping EU and US seperate. They should have found a way to combine the 2 servers one way or another. The glicko system just further compromises a bad situation to make it worse.

They already showed they are willing to give to give free transfers. This whole theory of them needing transfers to keep the lights on just doesn’t seem true.

FYI people get a free transfer credit when they upgrade from a F2P account. Please build upon the transfer credit system.

Free transfers went wrong because it was done on a server level instead of an account level.

You can still give out transfer credits while allowing people to pay for them if they so choose.

Here’s a radical thought:
SERVER SURVIVAL
Firstly, fully decouple WvW and PvE servers, which should be a no-brainer (i.e. apparently still too cerebral for 2010s ANet). People now can freely pick a “world” they represent.
If the world is at the bottom of the leaderboard and generally a ghost town, it is defunct and you have to pick a new world.
New worlds, too, can be started up once the bottom-most worlds are at a medium population and activity.
This constant flux between dying, born, rising, and declining servers would be immensely interesting IMNHO (not humble opinion because I know better than ANet what’s good for WvW).

Gunner Morton.8340:

I certainly would NOT like to see, for example, megaserver systems for WvW to ‘fix’ the population imbalance and would much rather like to see changes to the scoring systems.

At this point I don’t really care if its megaserver, or matchmaking like PvP, or merges whatever… I’ve tried every timezone since HoT launched and ALL the maps are practically dead even EB.

Take a game like Team Fortress 2. There is a list of static servers. You pick which one you want to join for your gaming session. If it’s full at 32/32 players you can queue up for your favorite server or pick another.

So tired of logging in just to see if it’s dead or not. Scoring changes only matter if there’s actually people playing on your server.

I’m very much looking forward to what they come up with.

What a heap of kittene…. address population imbalance? address timezone players? address night capping?

Oh… great idea… lets stick a massive laser in the map where the team with the highest population is going to win control of the laser that then reduces all the gates both outer and inner both fortified and non-fortified to less than 50%!!!!!

We told you to put a dev on SFR if you wanted to learn about wvw… when SFR dominated wvw because we were ALL 24/7 wvw players… but instead you went and stuck your devs on a server that was predominantly pve and another that didn’t even speak your native language…. that is why you messed up with the current maps…

Now SFR is in free fall because you locked transfers to the server and it was unable to replace the players that left… initially to FSP to create more competition on EU servers… and then those who left to Deso and AG initially because of internal trolling and then later because there was nobody playing during their main times of playing the game. It is unlikely that you will ever have that concentration of wvw-only players again. The only server that came close to the dedication and organisation of SFR was Vizunah Square and although Viz is once more on the rise, I would be surprised if it was the same as it once was. SFR had dedicated server-wide guilds providing services to ALL commanders on the map – from a server bank for siege to a list of dedicated players willing to scout to a guild designed to train people on how to play at their optimal best in wvw to another that trained people to be commanders. If you wanted to learn about siege then you could’ve talked to [Hovi], if you wanted to learn about scouting you could’ve talked to [PIST], if you wanted to learn about guild v guild fighting you could’ve talked to [RG], if you wanted to learn about all round wvw then you could’ve talked to [SLAY] or [ZDs]… these are just some of the obvious that you could’ve talked to… Anet really dropped the bomb by not sending a dev to learn about wvw from the best there has ever been…. and in all honesty… from some of the features on the new maps… you can tell.

Empty server, out of balance eotm, all simple fixes, none two years later solved. Instead of adding one map you replaced them. No idea why… but suspecting it has something to do with trying to earn more..

To reiterate what I said in another thread the new population calculation is being successfully gamed and it will lead to worse imbalances in T1 and T2 so if this is such a big issue for anet why are they not acting quickly?

I never knew that Adopt-a-Dev ever happened. I certainly never saw a Dev tagged up in WvW.

We need another Adopt-a-Dev. 12 week minimum. 3 Devs minimum on same server for a week at a time so they can cover 3 eight hour shifts (24 hrs) and witness what happens.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Hi, I’m posting today the transcript of the statement that John Corpening, game director for World vs. World, made last week at the beginning of the World vs. World Desert Borderlands Invitational. Enjoy!

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Hello, my name is John Corpening. I’m the game director for World vs. World in Guild Wars 2.

Shortly after I took over the World vs. World team I implemented the Adopt-A-Dev program for our team to investigate fully the state of World vs. World.

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>we all (players and Devs) need this on a regular basis

Our goal is great matches and our core pillars in support of this goal are Strategy, Competition, Collaboration, and rewarding the contributions of both players and guilds

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>good goal… Better goal would be keep players informed as you make progress towards that goal.

After Adopt-A-Dev we spent some time discussing and debating the results.

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>can someone link me their communication of the results?

As work on Heart of Thorns wraps up, we’ll be treating resolving the remaining core areas in WvW as our #1 live development feature priority for the game to ensure we deliver on making World vs. World not just the great experience it is today – but the incredible experience we know it can be. As this effort ramps up you will be hearing more from us about the work in progress.

---

>looking forward to hearing from you.

An example of this work in progress is the recent change to how world populations are determined.

While we’re working on more solutions for the areas I have outlined, we’re excited about the updates Heart of Thorns will be bringing to World vs. World as well!
We are eager to see the strategic play that develops from the Desert Borderlands with its new mechanics, unique objectives, astounding beauty and layout that both supports team fights in some areas while breaking up blobs in other areas.

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>I’m eager to see ANYthing happen on the new maps. They’re still desert-ed.

We look forward to putting a greater emphasis on holding objectives through auto-upgrades

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>this means we spend supply on siege instead of upgrades, right?

and on guilds through the guild claiming system, a system that gives players new ways to play the game and tools to defeat their opponents.

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>after the guild hall grind. I can’t remember how many months it was supposed to take. Which leads me to believe WvW will get some attention a month or so after guilds have had time to finish the grind.

We hope you enjoy the live stream of our second stress test coming up next and we will see you on the battlefield.

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>I’ve never seen a Dev in WvW.

We’ve heard all this before and we’re not falling for it again. We suggest one thing and you always do the exact opposite and make the situation worse EVERY TIME.

Gunner Morton.8340:

The most important thing to notice is this: I certainly would NOT like to see, for example, megaserver systems for WvW to ‘fix’ the population imbalance and would much rather like to see changes to the scoring systems.

Indeed, the server system has proven to be questionable, but in the absence of more robust community tools I fear that a megaserver-for-WvW would cause huge problems.

create 3 fixed team, the community will reorganise…
The problem with eotm is that your team change every week.

anything happening in this thread as in we getting any answers?

Lol, oh wait that was a serious question ?

Here’s what going to happen, they are going to internally make a bunch of changes without discussing it with us. They will pick things from the CDI threads that most of us did not want to see. Finally they will slap an approved stamp on it and before we know it we have EotM 2.0 and those remaining WvW players will finally just up and leave, leaving only the EotM crowd and the occasional visit from PvE players.

I seriously hope I’m wrong but that does seem to be the MO.

Here is a message today from Colin: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-road-ahead-for-2015/

This bodes ill for WvW. I wonder if John Corpening is still working at Arenanet or whether he has been sacked or moved? These promises are looking increasingly empty.

One mention of WvW. Awesome.

You think they are going to knee-jerk replace/change the Desert BL maps? They are going to be in place for at least a few months, I’m guessing. At a minimum.

Might as well work on adapting to the map. I think they realize that people have issues with the design, at least at first.

So when does development on HoT “Wrap up”?

I know that in a couple of weeks we will have the first raid wing, and some legendaries, then after that we have the start of the big PvP tournament, and then probably a second raid wing and with some more legendaries that will probably occupy more time.

I simply have a hard time seeing a point where Anet is going to run out of things to do on HoT and begin really working on WvW. It makes me worried that by the time we see any significant progress in WvW, the majority of the community will have moved on…

Well I think the next 6 months will be implementing the China release, so 6 months minimum.

It’s not like they (the devs) weren’t told enough times about the concerns of the new maps.

the next wvw patch might be possibly next year late summer. imagine how many pve bugs exists. they litteraly are not able to patrch the most simple positioning bugs of the traders in wvw.
and this this excuse of a chief wvw designer should be fired for putting out such a shamefull crap of a new borderland without considering those HUGE amounts of feedback they got. wtf was he doing?

Just to make everything clear, Anet doesn’t consider WvW to be a priority. They’ve made is so the six servers that are active in that area of the game are impossible to transfer to, and WvW is the only thing server status effects.

Night capping is not that terrible problem in servers that:

1) Have enough population (its really improbable that ALL the guilds are exactly from the same country, making the “playing hours” far more extended)

2) Have near the same active playing population than their opponents (because even if at night you have the disadvantage of 1 or 2 guilds capping your points, AT DAY you have to fight 2 less guilds that are sleeping)

The real problem is in low population servers. They should have been merged long ago.

Naurgalen.2374:

Night capping is not that terrible problem in servers that:

1) Have enough population (its really improbable that ALL the guilds are exactly from the same country, making the “playing hours” far more extended)

2) Have near the same active playing population than their opponents (because even if at night you have the disadvantage of 1 or 2 guilds capping your points, AT DAY you have to fight 2 less guilds that are sleeping)

The real problem is in low population servers. They should have been merged long ago.

Do the people on lower population servers want to be merged, by and large? Or do some of them prefer the lower population instead of zerging around/waiting in queues in the high pop?

Cogbyrn.7283:

Naurgalen.2374:

Night capping is not that terrible problem in servers that:

1) Have enough population (its really improbable that ALL the guilds are exactly from the same country, making the “playing hours” far more extended)

2) Have near the same active playing population than their opponents (because even if at night you have the disadvantage of 1 or 2 guilds capping your points, AT DAY you have to fight 2 less guilds that are sleeping)

The real problem is in low population servers. They should have been merged long ago.

Do the people on lower population servers want to be merged, by and large? Or do some of them prefer the lower population instead of zerging around/waiting in queues in the high pop?

I think most WvW players have server pride, and If merge is an option, I think they probably would prefer a new server name, instead of being absorbed into another server.

I remember the CDIs (or was there something else before the CDIs?) two years ago. Has anything ever come out of these official threads, each of which was concluded with official dev summaries? I think only coloured commander icons.

If not, there is for the devs still plenty of archive to be raided. Not as if much has changed since then, heh …

I do not want to spoil the joy of everyone but I am worried with this Invitational Statement because to me it just shows that ANet realized that WvW is crumbling…

It seems a move to stop the bleeding of WvW players, trying to keep them playing even if the system is not good, waiting for ANet WvW improvements.

Everything pointed out in the letter is old news…we are complaining about it for 3 years…it seems a bit late to recognize NOW what we have been asking for such a long time.

I hope ANet fixes WvW but…the recent changes speak for themselves…they are a total failure, WvW is dead right now.

^ True. If I recall correctly, ANet stated in the run-up to HoT that they would focus on WvW in the coming months. That was probably another, errrr … PR phrase. But if I had been following GW2 back then, I would have given them the benefit of doubt. I still give it to them, but they gotta show it by actions, not promises. We are several weeks into HoT, so now would be as perfect as time as will ever come to commence with the “WvW focus”, and with that I mean that they should start with a dialogue with the playerbase. If they belief the forumite/Reddit/etc. beliefs reflect only 0.00001% of all WvW players, they are wrong . There is not a single online PvP game (and of course GW2 WvW is an online PvP game) in video game history that didn’t tremendously suffer over dev/player disconnect (to the point of most of them dying early. As players are, kinda, their customers, you know), and there isn’t a single one that wasn’t improved by dev/player dialogue, for both technical and morale reasons.

Jamais vu.5284:

We are several weeks into HoT, so now would be as perfect as time as will ever come to commence with the “WvW focus”, and with that I mean that they should start with a dialogue with the playerbase.

I thought HoT released on October 23rd. Seeing as it is November 5th, that’s 13 days ago. Are you counting the beta events? If you’re exaggerating dates and times for effect, I have a difficult time thinking you aren’t doing the same with whatever else you say.

Above all else, please fix the lag issues first. No matter how good of content you pump out, with the lag & disconnects players are experiencing in WvW right now, it won’t matter. Imagine if PvE players felt the same lag in PvE, this whole forum would’ve exploded. I mean literally.

So not only did WvW players get the shaft in terms of content in HoT expansion, we got the short end of the stick because the lag is terrible right now.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I thought HoT released on October 23rd. Seeing as it is November 5th, that’s 13 days ago. Are you counting the beta events? If you’re exaggerating dates and times for effect, I have a difficult time thinking you aren’t doing the same with whatever else you say.

Incredible! Wow! That you really think extreme pedantry makes a good point, and not just sound like an attempt to troll. Anyway it’s funny that you say that when just yesterday you made this post:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Everyone always assumes they have everything perfect after a week, or even just a few days, and it never ceases to amaze me.

Jamais vu.5284:

Cogbyrn.7283:

I thought HoT released on October 23rd. Seeing as it is November 5th, that’s 13 days ago. Are you counting the beta events? If you’re exaggerating dates and times for effect, I have a difficult time thinking you aren’t doing the same with whatever else you say.

Incredible! Wow! That you really think extreme pedantry makes a good point, and not just sound like an attempt to troll. Anyway it’s funny that you say that when just yesterday you made this post:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Everyone always assumes they have everything perfect after a week, or even just a few days, and it never ceases to amaze me.

I was making a general observation on how quickly players reach conclusions and think they achieve optimal play. It only takes a week, or even just a few days, for players to start calling for balance changes. Sometimes it’s only one day. Look at the forums for living proof of that. I wasn’t commenting on how long HoT has been released, but if you can find “HoT” in that post, feel free to include it. I’ll admit if I’m wrong. Even if I’m wrong, that doesn’t change what I said.

This isn’t even my style of trolling, anyway. I was just stating that my mind stops and says “Wait, HoT hasn’t been out for several weeks, what is he talking about?”, then the rest of your post reads under the idea that you’re exaggerating for effect. I don’t want to feel that because I think you’re one of few who form good coherent thoughts that serve as negative feedback without all the angry spittle. Others would do well to follow your example, so I guess I really want your example to stick to facts, especially since your ideas are often sound.

@Jamais: I had a thing written up, and it was eaten by the logout monster. Why don’t I ever learn to at least copy post text.

Here’s the short version:

- I usually wouldn’t be that nitpicky, but with all of the egregious displays of drama on the forums, I think it pays extra to really stick closely to facts. It was probably too nitpicky though, and I didn’t mean to derail from your other point.

- I would always love more communication with devs. Always. But that sort of communication requires an agreed plan internally at ANet, as if they try to just do on-the-fly discourse, odds are it’ll somehow backfire on them. They should direct the feedback so they get the most benefit, and that plan might take a while to finalize/implement, especially with review processes on post content etc. They might also be whipping up a news blog. Either way, if something was going to happen, I wouldn’t be surprised if it took another week or two at least.

- Players also need to realize that even if they are banded together by anger, alleviating one person’s anger might inflame another’s. Right now the anger feels very generalized, and I bet everyone has their own unique way they’d like to see the problem solved. There’s no silver bullet that’s going to please everyone, and expectation management is, in my opinion, really important.

style.6173:

I sure hope ANET is right and the desert borderlands map is popular. I was extremely worried during the last 24 hour test. As soon as the 3 hour tournament was over, it seemed that a majority of people left the maps and returned to the regular WvW maps. If it was fun, wouldn’t they have stayed?

We will find out soon enough.

Now we know!

Svarty.8019:

Here is a message today from Colin: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-road-ahead-for-2015/

This bodes ill for WvW. I wonder if John Corpening is still working at Arenanet or whether he has been sacked or moved? These promises are looking increasingly empty.

I’m sure he is still there. You have to remember that essentially the entire ANET vision for WvW proved to be a failure. There are likely some very worried people trying to figure out what to do next.

So….

Where is that healthy gamestate now ?

As far as i can tell the new maps are pretty much a flop on anything below T1 status of population.

style.6173:

Svarty.8019:

Here is a message today from Colin: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-road-ahead-for-2015/

This bodes ill for WvW. I wonder if John Corpening is still working at Arenanet or whether he has been sacked or moved? These promises are looking increasingly empty.

I’m sure he is still there. You have to remember that essentially the entire ANET vision for WvW proved to be a failure. There are likely some very worried people trying to figure out what to do next.

What’s really interesting is that their original vision at launch was much more in line with what players wanted, both in terms of map design and gameplay mechanics.

From simple maps to maps cluttered with features and PvE, it’s like they’re following in the footsteps of Star Wars Episode 1:

Who was the person behind WvW at launch? Did he leave the company, or is he still in charge and just pulled a George Lucas?

So after 3 years of population issues, their fix is to change the “labeling” of a server’s population status?? – WTF

Lord Kuru.3685:

Who was the person behind WvW at launch? Did he leave the company, or is he still in charge and just pulled a George Lucas?

The story goes that WvW was made by freelancers (who were DAoC fans) in their lunch hours during the development of the original game. [edited for tact] That’s the story as I tell it, anyway.

TexZero.7910:

So….

Where is that healthy gamestate now ?

As far as i can tell the new maps are pretty much a flop on anything below T1 status of population.

new maps are a flop on T1 as well, after night after night running around fighting noone but bad AI, i think the guild has given up.

This has been the core problem since day one. If they don’t fix the population issues whether it be by server merges, mega servers or whatever, then seriously there is no hope, how many times do you have to be told the same thing before it starts to sink in, it’s absolutely incredible how the calling card of a game can go so neglected for so long. It’s not as if it’s PvE is any good, sPvP is not bad but jesus how many other games out there have the same if not better.

WvW is the feature that makes Gw2 stand out, give it the love it deserves and stop being scared of shaking the tree kitten .

And here, Cogbyrn, you see the second reason why I save my posts into a .rtf file. It is because of the weird tendency ‘these forums’ have to simply delete entire posts for them quoting one other that was deleted, instead of editing them to remove the offending part.
Utterly … I’ll say nothing.
Anyway, I did it, here’s the bundled feature pack of my two lengthy deleted posts, minus the quotes to the offending posts deleted.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m not saying you should be ignored, but I don’t understand why people think their voice should carry so much weight, to the point where others (potentially not you if I misread you) get hostile and make demands.

Because some people are more passionate, more informed, more articulate, and have better ideas.
And yes, despite your frequent labelling of them as “children” (a behaviour that, in its simplistic dismissiveness, strikes me myself as juvenile) a lot of them simultaneously have become jaded, cynical, negative, pessimistic, and/or angry. Also no one is angry at video games or beverages like you said. When people get angry it’s because they feel ignored or betrayed by the people working at this company. And what they fear to lose is not only their continued ability (which was rightly purchased) to have fun in this game, but also the social circle they have formed within it over the years, which are disintegrating due to the actions of this company.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Jamais: I had a thing written up, and it was eaten by the logout monster. Why don’t I ever learn to at least copy post text.

Ouch, that is my horror. I always keep a .rtf file open for pasting before I submit a post in this forum, for this exact reason.

- I would always love more communication with devs. Always. But that sort of communication requires an agreed plan internally at ANet, as if they try to just do on-the-fly discourse, odds are it’ll somehow backfire on them. They should direct the feedback so they get the most benefit, and that plan might take a while to finalize/implement, especially with review processes on post content etc. They might also be whipping up a news blog. Either way, if something was going to happen, I wouldn’t be surprised if it took another week or two at least.

The original reason they are so silent might very well be their philosophy about extreme secrecy.
However, I think that is completely the wrong approach, at least for PvP. I do not care about how they handle information in PvE, maybe it might be better there to not reveal your design plans, I don’t know/care. But they definitely have to treat PvP (sPvP and WvW) entirely separately from that approach.
They were also quite secretive in GW1, not even having an official forum (until ~1 year before GW2 was released and purely for technical support), so this is a tradition, quite a stubborn company philosophy that won’t be changed overnight, if ever. Still, during GW1 times we at least had a frank dialogue with the PvP devs, which were all PvPers themselves. They had a invite-only forum (don’t know if the GW2 PvP closed forum is still active), reasons and lines of thought were communicated, and it was established that balance notes would be public before the patch itself it.

To be honest, I think it’s too late for GW2 this point. It’s clear they don’t have full-time PvP staff anymore and/or people who have been “hardcore PvPers” at one point. It’s like going to a local supermarket and expecting to get advice from a sommelier. Of course they don’t have any, they don’t specialise in wine, it’s just one little side business of their product assortment.

- Players also need to realize that even if they are banded together by anger, alleviating one person’s anger might inflame another’s. Right now the anger feels very generalized, and I bet everyone has their own unique way they’d like to see the problem solved. There’s no silver bullet that’s going to please everyone, and expectation management is, in my opinion, really important.

Eh I get the impression almost all criticism has common a thread running through them. It’s not like there are huge differences and arguments between DB critics what the best solution would be. Most everyone agrees (as an example) that the map has too many obstacles in it, hindering movement.

So ANet you guys made this post giving us some hope you would give us more feedback about what you guys are planning for wvw… etc. etc… we have more than 2 weeks since new maps were released a lot of critics, ideas, opinions… and you guys just keep silent.

I know that you have this rule of only speaking when you are 99.99% sure of it… but can you guys at least say “We are reading this, we are aware of the issues you guys are complaning about, the next steps for wvw will be…” even if you do not have dates now at least let us know what you are thinking for the future.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do the people on lower population servers want to be merged, by and large? Or do some of them prefer the lower population instead of zerging around/waiting in queues in the high pop?

I cant speak for all the people or servers, but it is something that has been talked by many on TS and with the few players of my clan that play the mode. (The guild is mostly PvE, and we dont want to leave it)

rchu.8945:

I think most WvW players have server pride, and If merge is an option, I think they probably would prefer a new server name, instead of being absorbed into another server.

Indeed, merging servers would need to create new names, but its just a simple thing.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I’m going to sticky this thread, with John’s consent, because we feel it contains valuable information that forum members may wish to read.

Eh?!