Guild Wars 2

The new upgrade system automatically causes upgrades to happen over time.. While having dolyaks reduce the overall time it takes.

This system has it’s pros and cons.. But mostly mainly cons.

The strong balance of the current mechanic on live, forces the players to take an active part in defending their supply camps. Making it so players have to actually leave the defensive structure, to get the supply camps under their control in order to get the upgrades going on their castle/tower.

With the new system, it promotes turtling. Just staying in the castle/tower, and not needing to worry about escorting a yak. Yaks are just perks.. not an actual need.

This is bad.

Yaks/supply camps should be the backbone for WvW. Not just a WvW feature we can easily ignore.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Passive-Upgrade-System-DISCUSS/page/4#post5114353

It seems like that they are still important to a upgrade and don’t you need them still to get supplies into the camp.?

The upgrade is going to happen regardless if yaks reach the keep or not. The only thing yaks would do is.. if the keep takes 40 mins to upgrade.. or 35 mins if a yak made it in.

Basically, camps and yaks will only help speed the auto upgrade. A map could get all their camps flipped and still end up with T3 keeps with waypoint if the other force is not big enough to actually take the big structure.

auto-upgrade is fine to me, I don’t mind it as long as supplies effectively get into the keep. Yak should be needed to upgrade a structure, not just time.

Walls cannot be built out of thin air.

In what way did the article make it seem like yaks weren’t important? Yeah, upgrades won’t rely entirely on yaks, but they would complete at a snail’s pace. No one wants their upgrades to complete slower. People will still escort yaks.

Instead of a timed upgrade it should be a number of yaks that hit the structure. And with camps it should be the number of yaks that successfully make it to their destination. Idea being that they enable troops from those places to know they need help (like the guard upgrade).

I like the auto upgrade taking away decision and cost. That alone is a stress to commanders sending new players out to upgrade that can be avoided. Instead send someone to run yaks. Its an idea that should of been enforced with the old system.

If they don’t change it you still need yaks. Supply in keeps and towers is important try holding hills with no supply for 8 hours. Possible only if you have supply elsewhere on the map, say you don’t flip camps eventually no supply anywhere and you are fresh outta luck.

Phantom has a good point in that damage won’t be repairable if the enemy turtles and ignores yaks. Still, I’d like the system to be slightly less passive, or at least give room for strong active denial or sabotage to the upgrading process.

Thus, I think that the upgrading shouldn’t be on a static timer, but instead a system which uses yaks as its resource. By this, I mean that, perhaps, it takes 20 Yaks to reach the next upgrade of the keep. This means each time a yak arrives to the keep, the counter ticks up 1/20, then the next yak pushes it to 2/20, and so on. Thus, yaks directly fund upgrades while still not touching the player-usable supply.

Of course, it could also encourage mass yak hunting and defending, making it zerg play rather than roamer play, so I’d say ANet’s new system is to encourage roamers to defend and hunt yaks, making it rewarding and influential, but not so important that zergs will be sweeping the entire map for it. Of course, it might not be a problem in regards to the new Desert map (which is harder to traverse across so easily with large groups) and EB (which is harder to “sweep” in).

Don’t you need yak though to get supplies into the base. without them, turtling wont help if you have no supplies for repair or building defenses?

TJgalon.5012:

Don’t you need yak though to get supplies into the base. without them, turtling wont help if you have no supplies for repair or building defenses?

To an extent, yes.

But there’s also the matter that until now (and presumably after, but they have not said) each level of upgrade repairs in full any damage done to the structure. At this point, it becomes how many turtles you have with an AC and stack of siege disablers and supply traps, so that they can hold out until the guaranteed upgrade pops. These things are cheap, and replenishing the paltry amount of supply used is as simple as rotating your people out to flip camps on other BLs. This is going to push things more toward turtling and preventing damage to your structure passively.

It’s what Anet has been working towards since they tested removing white swords.

Concur, will have to catch the ready up but I hope they really do not mean you do not have to have supply coming in to upgrade a structure. Today that is a valid strategy to block an enemy from doing upgrades, take out the yaks and camps and starve them out. I like that Yaks will be more important to speed up the upgrade but they also need to retain their value in delivering the supply needed for the upgrade in the first place.

White swords were for the roamers, instead of allowing everyone to zerg and just get a signal it forced players to defend, or else roamers could take out large objectives without the enemy noticing.

Dondagora.9645:

…instead a system which uses yaks as its resource…

I am glad someone else had the same idea though didn’t seem to read the post before them

Altough im generaly against this change (mainly due to the overnight issue stated, being that if there is no people on at night you may wake up to a full maxed out map in the morning…) I do see some light here in terms of gameplay..

>Roamers you now have more to do (you can hit yaks take out people escorting yaks, escort yaks..)

>I think we may see more havoc vs havoc fights

> There is finally a use for trap skills for taking out yaks (ambush, spike trap…)

I also see a downside as mentioned.. I think this may also encourge more hiding in camps/towers which I dislike, (I main a thief/scout running the whole map non stop), this may kill some of the action and cause problems for the smaller servers that dont have many people online…

The guard stack thing im still mixed on.. I already have very low health, will I have to completely redo my build or will something else be given to us?

Thoughts???

TJgalon.5012:

Don’t you need yak though to get supplies into the base. without them, turtling wont help if you have no supplies for repair or building defenses?

Nope. You just run a group to a camp and drain the supply and then go back and build/repair.

When I’m upgrading or sieging up structures I never touch the supply inside. That supply is there for upgrades and to have supply on hand if we need to defend.

If they implement this change without a solution to how it will affect nightcapping they are going to kill a bunch of servers.

I think the OP is overstating the cons.

First, it seems one of the goals of this system is to have forts upgrade faster. In the current system, it’s very rare to defend anything in enemy territory because it takes too long and requires too much manpower. It’s also difficult to get supplies to those forts. With the new system, you realize benefits in a shorter period of time. It’s actually worth it to defend things over just flipping it back when attackers take it.

Second, camps are still important defensively. They’re needed to (re)build defensive siege and repair structures. As for defending them? Nothing will change about that. The dolyak delivery is still extremely important toward speeding the upgrade pace of a fort. ANet could possibly tweak dolyak respawn rates and camp upgrade benefits to make holding a camp preferable to flipping it back and forth.

I don’t see it having a significant impact on turtling inside a keep without using dolyaks for upgrades. It still takes a while to upgrade a keep without dolyaks. The difference is that a few defenders can hold long enough against a few attackers and actually have it mean something more in the long run.

Having a dolyak delivery number would be nice for the upgrade system.

like:
Each tier requires 20 yaks to make it the keep for upgrade. Making yaks mega important to escort.

If the keep doesn’t get the 20th yak.. then it’s a no go on the upgrades.. someone needs to go out, and escort that yak(that has a new buff because it’s being escorted by a player.. and it also can get movement speed buffs from sentry point NPCs). and bring it home.

YAK LIVES SHOULD MATTER!

An idea.

Keep the requirement that workers have to actually upgrade things.

Make workers leave the keep/tower to work on the outside of the walls/gate.

If a worker dies it has a 5-10 min respawn time.

If a keep/tower has no workers it’s automatic upgrade timer is halted.

Workers can be revived.

A yak shipment automatically revives workers and drops the time remaining.

This way a place under siege won’t just auto upgrade the walls and seal/split a group taking it because it’s timer went up.

Defenders can keep upgrades going by running yaks to an alternate gate.

Roamers can delay the upgrades by assassinating workers.

It promotes active defense to the passive upgrade system and allows an enemy to actively halt upgrades rather than just slowing them down to their maximum time by killing yaks.

So which upgrades have priority? Sometimes we want a WP before full walls and gates, sometimes after. More choice is better.

In any case I suspect the real reason for this change is that Anet is unwilling to spend any further effort policing griefers and trolls and this removes the ability to supply grief.

As for upgrades progressing without yaks: totally lame.

Lord Kuru.3685:

So which upgrades have priority? Sometimes we want a WP before full walls and gates, sometimes after. More choice is better.

In any case I suspect the real reason for this change is that Anet is unwilling to spend any further effort policing griefers and trolls and this removes the ability to supply grief.

As for upgrades progressing without yaks: totally lame.

They still can supply troll, it’s just not as easy or effective. Upgrades are great, but if you can’t build an AC because someone filled the courtyard with rams cannons/oil/mortars will only get you so far.

Next update you will see NPC building siege to avoid griefer to build plenty of ram inside the keep….
And to attack you will need to take one NPC with you to build the ram….

I still say, once it comes out and we can see it in action better, some of you may like it, heck, I might dislike it once I see it, but so far a lot of these updates to wvw, is making me more interested in doing wvw again.

TJgalon.5012:

I still say, once it comes out and we can see it in action better, some of you may like it, heck, I might dislike it once I see it, but so far a lot of these updates to wvw, is making me more interested in doing wvw again.

Anet is too slow to reverse bad decisions, especially in WvW which always seems to be an afterthought to them.

This is one of the things that should have been tested out the same way the PPK and removal of white swords was. Do you guys remember the whole month that new ideas were tested out?

Just cause some people find it bad, does not make an idea bad, and we wont always get what we want, but I say have fun with the system, lol.

testpig.5018:

The new upgrade system automatically causes upgrades to happen over time.. While having dolyaks reduce the overall time it takes.

This system has it’s pros and cons.. But mostly mainly cons.

The strong balance of the current mechanic on live, forces the players to take an active part in defending their supply camps. Making it so players have to actually leave the defensive structure, to get the supply camps under their control in order to get the upgrades going on their castle/tower.

With the new system, it promotes turtling. Just staying in the castle/tower, and not needing to worry about escorting a yak. Yaks are just perks.. not an actual need.

This is bad.

Yaks/supply camps should be the backbone for WvW. Not just a WvW feature we can easily ignore.

Agreed. I’m totally down with automatic upgrades, even if it means it takes longer to get a WP. No more supply griefing or spending tons of gold is a great thing.

But yak-less upgrades are a real problem, I do not like at all that it’s possible under these changes to fully upgrade a keep without a single yak getting to it.

You need to get the yak going and keep the line clear, get supplies in the fort, or it will take forever to upgrade and in that time, you can be recaptured, so i am not really seeing the problem.

Good changes. Tough for trolls to waste supply. Nobody has to waste money on upgrading stuff hoping the enemy doesn’t come to flip it.

Probably bad for weaker servers if enemy takes their stuff when they are sleeping.

If an server holds keeps on an enemy BL or the enemy Keep in EB, the upgrades should run slower. Otherwise mismatches could get drastically worse.

I think the new system could be good, allowing defensive underdogs to bunker up while superior servers get the benefit that dolyaks can bring – it doesn’t appear, on the surface, to give much attacking potential to the underdog, but maybe that’s asking too much.

BrickFurious.7169:

But yak-less upgrades are a real problem, I do not like at all that it’s possible under these changes to fully upgrade a keep without a single yak getting to it.

That’s the problem I have with this as well. A server that is being efficient with killing supply lines shouldn’t be penalized by allowing the enemies to continued upgrading.

Also, what’s going to happen for the servers that have bad coverage times? Are enemy servers just going to be able to keep a blob posted in an enemy garrison while the weaker coverage server is unable to even prevent it from upgrading because of this “auto-upgrade”?

This feels like it’s going to be a train wreck.

So which upgrade will come first, reinforced walls or WP? When do cannons come? These strategic choices are very important, particular if you’re the smaller server in a mismatch (and most matchups are mismatches). The devs have shown they have zero idea how matches go outside of T1 so the upgrade sequence likely not turn out well in a lot of cases.

And whatever happened to the “we’re going to test new ideas in WvW” that they talked about when they removed white swords? Seems they had no intention of doing that at all; it was just talk to mollify the masses after the debacle of announcing the permanent removal of white swords. (Never mind the long-forgotten “EotM is where we’ll test new WvW features.”)

feels like this game just took a turn in the direction of WARHAMMER online..

careful Anet.. careful

Lord Kuru.3685:

So which upgrades have priority? Sometimes we want a WP before full walls and gates, sometimes after. More choice is better.

Upgrades are in tiers. You get everything in a tier when the upgrade completes and it begins work on the next tier. You no longer have to choose.

For a tower, the first tier of upgrades gets you an oil pot and reinforced walls at the same time. The second tier would be cannon and reinforced gate. I think the guard upgrades are tied into that tier system as well.

The upgrade times aren’t final yet, but it looks like getting to tier3 is about the same time or number of yaks it would take to finish three tiers in one path of the current system.

TheGrimm.5624:

Concur, will have to catch the ready up but I hope they really do not mean you do not have to have supply coming in to upgrade a structure. Today that is a valid strategy to block an enemy from doing upgrades, take out the yaks and camps and starve them out. I like that Yaks will be more important to speed up the upgrade but they also need to retain their value in delivering the supply needed for the upgrade in the first place.

This. Big Time. Especially since Yaks are getting some kind of combat buff. Let the fight be on the Yaks.

The current model imposes defense costs and time and lack of karma train opportunities on defenders. There is no reward for Yak slapping which I do all the time. Some of my best havoc fights have been defending Yaks! I’m not opposed to the new system removing some of the burden on selfless defenders; there will still be siege to refresh and defending gets you no bags much of the time. But these auto-upgrading structures without the need for Yaks is too much.

Auto-updates WITH required Yaks and separating upgrade supply from usable supply, that’s ok. But don’t remove the supply meta altogether with structures that upgrade even when the server is empty.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Do you guys remember the whole month that new ideas were tested out?

The question is, does Anet remember?

The supply trolling issue is for real in the current system. But you can eliminate it with respect to upgrades by requiring a certain number of Yaks. Yaks could still drop supply to be used for siege or defending, etc. But each Yak shipment would also count separately toward the upgrade.

This preserves the importance of the Yak, the thrill of fights around a Yak that will survive if escorted and foils the trolls.

I think what would help is giving us a better time frame for this. It says it runs very slowly to upgrade and yaks help bring this time to normal, so what does that effect mostly.

TJgalon.5012:

I think what would help is giving us a better time frame for this. It says it runs very slowly to upgrade and yaks help bring this time to normal, so what does that effect mostly.

Aye. People say that it will cause blobs to stay in a keep and get their “free” upgrade, but what timeframes are we talking about?

If it takes 12 hours to upgrade garri to T3 when all the dollies are being killed, as opposed to 2 hours when they are all being escorted (just random numbers, you get the point)… Would that really be so bad? As long as they make the passive dolly-less timer long enough I dont really see the problem compared to the way it is now. Killing the dollies would still mean something and significantly delay the enemy server bunkering up.

exactly, it the not having all the facts that are scaring some people, my self, i am indifference to it, but mostly cause I am a medium level WvW player, lol.

TJgalon.5012:

exactly, it the not having all the facts that are scaring some people, my self, i am indifference to it, but mostly cause I am a medium level WvW player, lol.

Well uhm… maybe both of us should read the news closer >.<

Sorry, they did state times there. Its a rather narrow timeframe that would mean a T3 keep would passive upgrade in ~3 hours while a dolly upgrade would go in ~1 hour. I am fairly sure that it take more than 4 dollies now to upgrade a tier? Hopefully what they mean is that only T1 is this “fast” and T2-3 exponentially increase. They state that it will increase, but not by how much. It might even go to 10+ hours.

I was rereading and not sure where that info came from, the only time frame I see, is 20-40minutes before any upgrade will begin and or tier 1, what ever that means, I am not 100% sure, lol.

Xillllix.3485:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Do you guys remember the whole month that new ideas were tested out?

The question is, does Anet remember?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Didnt read above post sry

I think the only one good point in all of this is the fact that upgrad are now free
The whole remaining is bull_of_kitten

No need of dolyak to get upgrads ?
=> remove at least half of wvw mechanics
I’m very sad cause the improve to dolyak escort with the DR when a player stand near was a nice idea.
Now a server who dont defend his dolyak is not punished ? like really ? #casualisation

Reducting wvw maxing abilities rank ?
Same as above #casualisation
WVW spec are supposed to be a reward for wvw players, when i read that the average wvw’s player’s rank is 300 it make me laugh, a good wvw player is at least 1K nowadays (exept pro scout player, but once again it adress the issue of scout’s reward)
However, applied fortitude and strengh beeing made baseline is good for the balance. A new player shouldnt be weaker till he reach lv 280
But since we dont really know how will those bonus be granted, i cant say “it’s good” but i can say “it’s a moove in the right direction” (as for the dolyak escort … but we know how it turned out ….)

Isn’t defending objects like a supply camp suppose to be “working as intended” ? I really do not see why this is a con (regarding the OP). It demands more strategic planning if the need to speed up upgrades arises..if this choice is not made, well, upgrading takes a bit longer. more a matter of choice then a con IMO

I think many here are missing the point. It takes less work to upgrade and hold objectives. I realize to many people its how they like to have fun, but don’t kid yourself sitting inside a keep or tower on an AC for hours and painstakingly walk yaks isn’t fun for most people.

Lets look at this for a new angle, if its less work to upgrade and hold objectives than that means more fun for people who don’t want to waste time doing this and they can instead go and have fights or try to attack objectives.

To Warlord
Lets see it from another point of view: Dolyak’s assassin.
They will kill dolayk …. for nothing. It’s plain useless, structures will still upgrad, not rewarding the server that is cutting supply routes ….

Lord Kuru

In any case I suspect the real reason for this change is that Anet is unwilling to spend any further effort policing griefers and trolls and this removes the ability to supply grief.
As for upgrades progressing without yaks: totally lame.

THIS

Ans the answer as been given by a lot of player, lets quote this one:
(for some reason the BBcode isnt working, i’m quoting DroidDreamer)

The supply trolling issue is for real in the current system. But you can eliminate it with respect to upgrades by requiring a certain number of Yaks. Yaks could still drop supply to be used for siege or defending, etc. But each Yak shipment would also count separately toward the upgrade.
This preserves the importance of the Yak, the thrill of fights around a Yak that will survive if escorted and foils the trolls.

I’m fine with Anet not carring about WVW moderation, but its not an reason to deliver bad update … when i see that at least 10player are able to come up with a good solution in less than 24H … i’m wondering what it tells about anet’s wvw team developpement ……….

idk but it looks like wvw is turing into a pve(eotm) karmatrain ….the dolyaks are just the start. the new map already looks like a eotm complex jumping puzzle for pve players to go and do pve stuff like killing a pve boss in wvw. ugh got a bad feeling about this all….

Killing dolyacks to prevent upgrades is the current way of thinking. You havn’t seen what the new way of thinking is yet and are trying to figure out how it will work without knowing. And basically complaining.,

protecting the yaks are still very important, cause you need them to help upgrade your building faster or they get taken quicker. The updates are all looking good, and so far the few cons i see being posted seem like they are not that big and we might even get more players into wvw, which is the fun, running around, taking things, fighting, it all about the fun.

Server who is not able to organise his team, and support his scout should have penality. On good server scout are supported, with gold, siege, etc. Then they find people to do the job and this give tactical advantage.
If on some server people don’t want to help scout then they don’t have scout, and this allow ennemy to take the structure easly.

It’s not because some people don’t want to do the job and only want to blob that anet should destroy this aspect of the game ! (defending / upgrading).

On my server scouting is fine. Scout didn’t pay for upgrade, didn’t pay for siege and have help to escort doly. This give us a big advantage against other team who don’t care about their keep. Because we hold our T3 some time 3 or 4 days long ! Just because there are people to do the job.

Now even if server as no organisation, then the keep will be T3 without any human intervention….

Anet should reward cooperative job and tactical organisation, not only blobs…..

Sich.7103:

Server who is not able to organise his team, and support his scout should have penality. On good server scout are supported, with gold, siege, etc. Then they find people to do the job and this give tactical advantage.
If on some server people don’t want to help scout then they don’t have scout, and this allow ennemy to take the structure easly.

It’s not because some people don’t want to do the job and only want to blob that anet should destroy this aspect of the game ! (defending / upgrading).

On my server scouting is fine. Scout didn’t pay for upgrade, didn’t pay for siege and have help to escort doly. This give us a big advantage against other team who don’t care about their keep. Because we hold our T3 some time 3 or 4 days long ! Just because there are people to do the job.

Now even if server as no organisation, then the keep will be T3 without any human intervention….

Anet should reward cooperative job and tactical organisation, not only blobs…..

how long will it take without human intervention though. keeping the yak away and one of two other colors can take the building them self. this might force a new way of playing, but new does not mean bad, it means you adapt, you fight back, and you keep going, and above all else, have fun.

TJ, how do you have fun, when at 8am, you’re 10player and you’ll have to face fully upgraded structure with 10player defending ? Those structure could even be YOUR own keep!!!
Unless night player full KT the 4maps and are not delayed by some player that are able to def 2-3 vs 10 … very fun for them if they rather fight for camp and dolyak while checking white cross on thei own structure … very fun indeed.

Just quoting the best thing ever said in this topic:

Server who is not able to organise his team, and support his scout should have penality. On good server scout are supported, with gold, siege, etc. Then they find people to do the job and this give tactical advantage.
If on some server people don’t want to help scout then they don’t have scout, and this allow ennemy to take the structure easly.
It’s not because some people don’t want to do the job and only want to blob that anet should destroy this aspect of the game ! (defending / upgrading).
On my server scouting is fine. Scout didn’t pay for upgrade, didn’t pay for siege and have help to escort doly. This give us a big advantage against other team who don’t care about their keep. Because we hold our T3 some time 3 or 4 days long ! Just because there are people to do the job.
Now even if server as no organisation, then the keep will be T3 without any human intervention….
Anet should reward cooperative job and tactical organisation, not only blobs…..

Thank you Sich