WvW Passive Upgrade System….[DISCUSS]
So a few easy tactic get removed, then you do new ones, protect your area, flip them, but geez, it can’t be as hard or as big of a deal as your making it, if a army of 2 or 3 people can take a keep or tower.
Another Problem i see is that you cant drain a camp anymore in 1 second with an upgrade. As a homeland defender its sometimes the only way to defend urself against a big blob when outnumbered, so you get a bit more time to organize a proper defense.
Thats one of the rare tactical moves that can really help you out when outnumbered at the moment, so it really bothers me that you wont be able to do that anymore.
Well, isnt the point of these changes to make it easier to get a proper defense in the first place?
If you cant hold your towers anyway… then you cant hold your towers. So pointless upgrades of camps just become a kitten move. I dont question the fact that this may be bad for unbalanced situations where 1 player try to stop 50 from capping, but that situation is… uhm… unbalanced. You’re not going to change that. If you did, then its going to suck when its 50v50 instead. Which it does, when one side is completely starved for supplies due to previously mentioned kitten moves and cant do anything while the other has 10 arrowcarts in a T3 keep. 2 sides to every coin.
Passively upgraded towers that’s cheap to maintain + easier to get supplies to siege them. You have to consider both sides, not just one.
(edited by Dawdler.8521)
Another Problem i see is that you cant drain a camp anymore in 1 second with an upgrade. As a homeland defender its sometimes the only way to defend urself against a big blob when outnumbered, so you get a bit more time to organize a proper defense.
Thats one of the rare tactical moves that can really help you out when outnumbered at the moment, so it really bothers me that you wont be able to do that anymore.
Well, isnt the point of these changes to make it easier to get a proper defense in the first place?
If you cant hold your towers anyway… then you cant hold your towers. So pointless upgrades of camps just become a kitten move. I dont question the fact that this may be bad for unbalanced situations where 1 player try to stop 50 from capping, but that situation is… uhm… unbalanced. You’re not going to change that. If you did, then its going to suck when its 50v50 instead. Which it does, when one side is completely starved for supplies due to previously mentioned kitten moves and cant do anything while the other has 10 arrowcarts in a T3 keep. 2 sides to every coin.
Passively upgraded towers that’s cheap to maintain + easier to get supplies to siege them. You have to consider both sides, not just one.
A t3 keep even with 20 Acs and 20 defenders cant defend against a 60 men zoneblob when those 60 guys have all the supps of the map. How is draining supps unbalanced?
Ive never seen someone complaining about that. I saw people complaining about zoneblobs with 12 omegas. I saw people complaining about offensive Acs that destroy all Siege from the defenders.
Defenders should have an advantage. At the moment the only advantage is that they can cut off the supply with a bit map awareness and even that just buys a bit time. its not like the Blob wouldnt have any other options.
This type of upgrading is very similar to what happens in SilverWastes. Based on that ,it seems that Anet wants to spit up the massive zergs into smaller groups that have to defend supply lines,camps and towers.It works in Silverwastes quite well .If ths is the case I welcome the change.I personally have gotten bored of the zerging that goes on in WvW now. But I guess we’ll see.
This is horrible for the off hours players. Normally during those low periods their are a few roamers flipping camps or havoc groups taking undefended towers. Now their you cannot even do that since you will need more people. Taking a fully upgrade camp is very painful to solo or duo with a friend. 2 pulls and by the time you start to cap normally someone will come to defend.
Normally the only camp that is fully upgrade is north camp and their is a 50/50 chance of it being defended even when it is not upgraded. Even if your duo can normally 2v5 and win, by the time you kill off the enemy players the camp will start to respawn and more players will come. Taking a t3 tower takes double the amount of time compared to a normal tower, so one player can come and hop on oil, build some AC or a treb to kill any rams on the gate or catapults on the wall. The passive upgrades helps servers with more coverage, this is a common trend with most wvw updates.
“Quoth the raven nevermore”
Platinum Scout: 300% MF
(edited by Ulion.5476)
In my opinion, free upgrades is really interesting because, indeed, sometimes it’s always the same people that upgrade keeps and camps.
However, automatic upgrades won’t leave place for strategy. If the enemy server forgets to upgrade one of their keep or tower, it’s their fault. Now you pretty much don’t have to worry about the upgrades.
I’m mostly mixed about this, but I would say I’m rather against the automatic part of the WvW changes.
Son of Elonia.
The real issue here is that this change will destroy servers with poor off-hours coverage.
Previously servers with poor off-hours coverage would lose all their t3 structures during the night, but at least they would be paper in the morning since no one on the enemy server would bother to pay for upgrades.
Now, all those structures will upgrade automatically, meaning a losing server will log into wvw and all their structures will be tier 3 enemy controlled.
This change will only aggravate the population imbalance problem to the point that it will break wvw for some servers.This. This right here.
Agreed 100%. As things stand, the enemy must make a commitment of time and gold to upgrade a structure even if they are unopposed on the map. They might do it for one or two structures, but aren’t going to blanket the map with upgrades. With the new system they merely need to paint the map their color and then go elsewhere, knowing that their control of the map will be almost total within hours, even if some insomniac defender shows up and flips a camp. They will have waypoints into the heartland of the server that was already in a worse position, and they won’t even have to work for them.
Meanwhile, I can easily see the “clock wars” attitude becoming prevalent. Why bother to defend something in which you have no investment of time, effort, and money? Let it flip, then flip it back. Watch the tick. Me, if I spend 45 silver to fully upgrade a camp because I need it for the upgrade of a tower on which I’m spending 1.6g and several hours and a bunch of siege, you’d better believe I’m going to be watching both like a hawk.
Just going to point out that you only get WP’s in keeps closest to your base camp. So if they take your Garrison they will never get a WP there.
I do agree that this will be a problem that can really hurt anyone not in T1 or T2
(edited by Aerathnor.8305)
the problem isn’t the auto upgrades.. the problem is the auto upgrade without a prerequisite. “just waiting” should not be the requirement for a keep/tower to be upgraded. It should not be a TIME thing.
The Dolyaks should be the most important thing for a keep to be upgraded. The simple, weak, slow moving dolyak. A keep/tower should have a requirement of X dolly’s reaching the keep for it to upgrade. Allowing players to STOP an upgrade. Just like how we can currently STOP an upgrade by draining a keeps supply.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
the problem isn’t the auto upgrades.. the problem is the auto upgrade without a prerequisite. “just waiting” should not be the requirement for a keep/tower to be upgraded. It should not be a TIME thing.
The Dolyaks should be the most important thing for a keep to be upgraded. The simple, weak, slow moving dolyak. A keep/tower should have a requirement of X dolly’s reaching the keep for it to upgrade. Allowing players to STOP an upgrade. Just like how we can currently STOP an upgrade by draining a keeps supply.
That would help to some extent. But on a server with poor night coverage, the dolyaks from the enemy-held camps will be reaching the enemy-held keeps and towers unmolested, so the automatic upgrades will proceed even if dolyaks are a prerequisite.
What has been left out of your scenario is the human factor, where an actual player has to be present to order (and pay for) each upgrade or the upgrade does not get done. The enemy no longer has to make any commitment to upgrading the structures beyond initially capping them and their camps. To me, player involvement needs to be a prerequisite for something so important to gaining a battlefield advantage.
On the flip side, the home team doesn’t have to make any commitment either. But, is this really a good thing? Do the Good Guys really deserve to have upgrades just because no Bad Guy got around to attacking a particular structure and its camp(s) for a while?
Edit: Here’s an idea to get the human factor back into play. Require the yaks, but also require that they be accompanied by at least one player in order to count for the upgrade. So, if someone wants a particular structure upgraded, someone will have to take on the duty of escorting the yaks. If no one is willing to take on the boring task of walking around with the yaks in the middle of the night, then the upgrade doesn’t get done. If a LOT of enemies aren’t willing to walk the yaks in the middle of the night, then the home team will not wake up to find all their structures T3 against them.
(edited by BrettM.9062)
Just remove all this stupid thing, just maintain the buff for the yak when it’s escorted. Maintain the second upgrade for the door. Keep the gold cost, keep the supply cost, and keep the human factor to start the upgrade. It’s fine, it’s work fine. No need to make this change… Oh and don’t remove WP from the keep, and that the WP must be at T3…. Just stupid to have the WP once you have the keep…
All this modification are stupid, very stupid. This make the game always more for casual player and near to eotm.
We have something that work fine for people who try to play for the server. People who only want to make bag can go to eotm.
Here’s what Anet should have asked from the start:
“What do you, the comunity, think of this idea?
What changes, if any, would you as the comunity like to see?"
I haven’ t been playing wvw for long. Tier upgrades sounds good, as well as the fact that it doesn’t cost coin. But someone has to at least order the next tier. As has been stated a certain number of yaks have to reach the destination and they have to be defended/attacked.
But automatic? Even with my little experience I have to say I see a disaster coming. Makes me wonder if I still want to bother with the expansion.
(edited by Skaaprib.5680)
Just remove all this stupid thing, just maintain the buff for the yak when it’s escorted. Maintain the second upgrade for the door. Keep the gold cost, keep the supply cost, and keep the human factor to start the upgrade. It’s fine, it’s work fine. No need to make this change… Oh and don’t remove WP from the keep, and that the WP must be at T3…. Just stupid to have the WP once you have the keep…
All this modification are stupid, very stupid. This make the game always more for casual player and near to eotm.
We have something that work fine for people who try to play for the server. People who only want to make bag can go to eotm.
Lots of stupid, not a lot of logic.
The separation of upgrade and supply/gold is a terrific idea. It lets supply be used for siege as it should be. Gold sinks are also pretty contradictory, seeing as you want to reward upgrading and defense, not force players to pay out of their own pocket to support the objective, AKA punishing players for attempting to upgrade. On these points, ANet got it right.
As for waypoints, I can see the logic here, both mechanically and logically. Home server advantage gets their waypoint in a keep, denies some snowballing in that a dominating server gets map-wide mobility.
The auto-upgrade system on a timer, however, I can see as a problem, though I won’t say it can’t work. I would indeed rather the system center more around the supply caravan and allow the enemy to completely deny upgrades instead of having it inevitably happen eventually.
(edited by Dondagora.9645)
Waypoints have changed so the auto upgradesystem makes more sense. Thank goodness for people getting a bit more freedom and the shut down of upgrade trolls.
In my opinion, free upgrades is really interesting because, indeed, sometimes it’s always the same people that upgrade keeps and camps.
However, automatic upgrades won’t leave place for strategy. If the enemy server forgets to upgrade one of their keep or tower, it’s their fault. Now you pretty much don’t have to worry about the upgrades.
I’m mostly mixed about this, but I would say I’m rather against the automatic part of the WvW changes.
no suplies and auto upgrade = no trolls burning supply or buying merchs to avoid tower/keep gets upgraded.
GW2 players tend to be cheap tacticians, and allow me to be blunt with an extreme example: for some reason if weapon dont do a ton of damage weapon isnt balanced (gw2 player mentality), and this auto updates solves some part where players have seconds accounts to troll in the other servers, i would prefer players taking care of stuff they own but gw2 player bring this to themselves.
(edited by Aeolus.3615)
My main question to ANet is can I be reimbursed for the TONS of gold I used (threw away) to upgrade over the last 2.5 years?
I know the game needs gold sinks, but seriously badges would have been a better currency here.
If you remove difficulty and gold to upgrade the keep then they have no value.
No cost mean no value…. Now you try to defend your T3 because there is the WP upgrade inside. You try to defend because people on your server have paid for thie upgrade. You try to protect the job that other people (or yourself) have done. The “glory” to have all 3 WP on the map.
Now that the keep will upgrade with no cost, that the upgrade don’t give you the WP, then the keep has no value…. Or at least, same value as paper or T3. Then there is no reasons to fight hours to protect your T3, if the ennemy blob is to big, just let them capture the keep, you will take it back later. Don’t worry, upgrade cost nothing, don’t give any WP and this is all automatic.
A lot of people don’t worry about the PPT, and now the only value of your keep are this PPT.
Other thing, now that the side WP are removed, people won’t go to fight at the opposite of the map alone. Because if they die they have to walk back. They will just regroup, make blob to attack the ennemy keep, and continu.
Oh kitten, another tower is attacked…. Don’t worry, upgrade are free, and we don’t have WP…. Then no problem….
Oh and garri ? No problem, the ennemy will not siege it, because to far away from his spawn, and he will not be able to build WP. But you will have the WP soon as you take it back.
With all this, no glory to build a WP, no glory to reset ennemy WP, it’s not necessary to protect the job do by other guys (upgrade, defending yak, etc).
And with the new WP it will be very difficult to hold at the prime time the side keep, because no WP and ennemy WP close to the keep. Then no need to stay hours and build siege inside, because you know that once the prime is started the keep will fall… Impossible to defend 2 keep without WP inside.
Free upgrade is kitten, auto update is kitten…
All this change will just bring even more blob, and always less tacticals play…
[EDIT]
And about troll buying the game twice just to start wrong upgrade. Make that you need at least one lvl 80 to come in McM, and at least 2 or 3k achievment point. No restrictions for EOTM, but only for regular McM. This will avoir people to buy the game, invest time in his character, just to troll in McM.
[/EDIT]
(edited by Sich.7103)
I have to agree with many people in that upgrades were always part of the strategy. You may choose not to fortify on reset night(though with it not costing supps anymore this reasoning becomes obsolete.). You may want to go straight to WP instead of other things.
Not to mention, part of the strategy to keep keeps from upgrading was depriving it of upgrades by attacking said keep. Making the opponent use supplies rather than them getting an upgrade.
You may not take the keep but you did make them use up precious supps repairing the damage you did and they not get the fortify or waypoint.
On the other side of the coin, it was a rather easy strategy, just keep hitting the keep over and over until its ready to be taken. Rather cheesish honestly.
So I may be wrong and the strategy of just throwing bodies at a keep over and over until its broken down and its yours, may go south and now you have to actually do something clever.
So actually I dont know about this one, I can see two sides of it.
Just going to point out that you only get WP’s in keeps closest to your base camp. So if they take your Garrison they will never get a WP there.
I do agree that this will be a problem that can really hurt anyone not in T1 or T2
Add T3 to that list, or well I suppose you can soon. It’s becoming rather stacked, especially with an entire server moving to another and in all but name leading the charge to ‘acquire’ even more guilds, which only serves to lock in the same process that occurred in T1/T2. Sadly people don’t realize this is the cause of a lot of WvW problems for all servers, but it’s what they want so I hope the kittens enjoy it. (note: I did indeed type kittens, but I have lots of choice words but that digresses too far from topic)
My main question to ANet is can I be reimbursed for the TONS of gold I used (threw away) to upgrade over the last 2.5 years?
I know the game needs gold sinks, but seriously badges would have been a better currency here.
No, and what MMO would do that? MMO’s do change all the time, they have to, and whether you agree with changes or not, don’t ever count on getting that back. Hell, RL is the same…
If you remove difficulty and gold to upgrade the keep then they have no value.
No cost mean no value…. Now you try to defend your T3 because there is the WP upgrade inside. You try to defend because people on your server have paid for thie upgrade. You try to protect the job that other people (or yourself) have done. The “glory” to have all 3 WP on the map.
^^ Listen to this wise person!
“Free” sounds good until you think about it. Now, I wouldn’t have a problem if ANet wanted to reduce the costs a little, since they are rather steep for players on an underpopulated server, where single individuals are paying for the upgrades more often than not I think. I know when I adopt a tower or keep and the camps that serve it, I spend an amount that it will take me many hours to make back in PvE, so I can’t do it as often as I’d like. Perhaps the prices could be scaled by tier.
If you remove difficulty and gold to upgrade the keep then they have no value.
No cost mean no value…. Now you try to defend your T3 because there is the WP upgrade inside. You try to defend because people on your server have paid for thie upgrade. You try to protect the job that other people (or yourself) have done. The “glory” to have all 3 WP on the map.^^ Listen to this wise person!
“Free” sounds good until you think about it. Now, I wouldn’t have a problem if ANet wanted to reduce the costs a little, since they are rather steep for players on an underpopulated server, where single individuals are paying for the upgrades more often than not I think. I know when I adopt a tower or keep and the camps that serve it, I spend an amount that it will take me many hours to make back in PvE, so I can’t do it as often as I’d like. Perhaps the prices could be scaled by tier.
Yeah this too. Why worry about that keep anymore? You just take it back and get your waypoint immediately. The loss of keep is no longer as substantial as it used to be.
SM on the other hand, fight like hell.
Maybe if they made objectives like Keeps more valuable in PPT depending on what Upgrade they were at.
Make keeps worth 15 points at T1 , 20 points at T2, and 25 points at T3. Towers can go from 5 to 10 and SM can go from 25 to 35.
This actually would make defense ten times more valuable than ever before and pushing dolyaks so much more important.
Yeah honestly I like that idea as reset night all of a sudden turned around to slowing upgrades, whoever ccan get those upgrades done the fastest while maintaining control come out ahead.
IF its a stale mate of no one really making headway on taking keeps, it goes down to towers.
It really changes the idea of “Hold it for the tick” or “Get this for the tick” and those last minute pushes for an objective isnt all that important, a beginning tick push on a keep would still be well worth it as now you just limited the opposing teams points for 5 to 6 ticks.
Killing a dolyak could very well cost your opposing team 5 points on a tick.
(edited by nightblood.7910)
Yea they need to make objectives worth more PPT per upgrade level. And the reward for taking an objective should increase per level of that objective. so if it’s a fully upgraded keep.. then i want a nice increased chance for ascended drops.
But with all that said.. dolyaks should still be the most important means in upgrading any objective.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
yep, T3 should give more PPT that T0. This could help to reward defense.
And yes, doly should always be required to upgrade…
More PPT for upgrades sounds good. While you’re at it, give wxp to anyone who orders an upgrade that is completed, and perhaps for any siege that is built inside a structure. This would help scouts get some of the rank and badges that they miss out on by not following the zerg around. Points come mighty slow when you’re managing upgrades, hustling yaks, building and refreshing siege, and other such grunt work. You have to build a lot of oil pots to rank up!
i hope a Anet is surfing no this holiday
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
Considering the current system requires that supply be present for the upgrades and the new system works off a timer why not take the concept from the old and apply it to the new while still dealing with the supply troll factor. If none of the supply camps that provide supply to the objective are held then the objective will not start a new upgrade timer until a camp is retaken. Furthermore if none are controlled while an upgrade is in process then during that period the timer to build is increased by 100%. That way the upgrade can continue albeit at much reduced rate and starving a structure is still a valid strategy.
I am for the concept that defense needs to have more value, but I am not sure that auto-upgrades encourage me to defend. Its going to upgrade either way.
Increase the value of upgraded structures as well and create additional incentive to encourage players to retain them. Possibly increased point value for each tier, extra player buffs in objective area, world bonus that applies outside of WvW, things to do while in the structures to make sentry duty more interesting.
With this change I actually see camps as having very little reason to defend at all and today camps are the cornerstones. As I said I like that the Yaks have more value, but lets not remove the need for the camps.
De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
exactly, the new system removes the need/value for camps and yaks.
Thats why the link in my signature gives a perfect solution, making yaks an event, needed for the keep/tower to be upgraded..
Get 10 yaks into a tower.. it upgrades. bam. simple.
kill the yaks.. no upgrades.
defend the yaks.. upgrades.
simple
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
I may have changed my mind on the changes – even including the time gated upgrades not requiring supply to upgrade. If the players play it right (big if) then it may be just what was needed to assist the lower populated servers in an imbalanced match.
It may not help the weaker servers score wise, but it may help them fun wise. These changes could provide more actual PvP and less PvD. The changes may in effect “shirink the map” so that a lower population server can better defend certain assets (their third of the map) easier than before.
It may even allow forays into the stronger severs territory. It may encourage two weaker servers to gang up on the strongest – using the Oasis Event for example.
I’m trying to think optimistically here. And at this point I’ll take any change, even one that has the potential to be bad, over no change at all.
Another thought that is separate from my previous post is regarding the examples of a server that is dominant in a particular time zone; that will be a problem. But if a server can totally cap the entirety of an enimie’s map then that is a problem that nothing will help. That is a match that shouldn’t happen.
That type of situation is an indication that more change is needed than simply to mechanics. If there are too many instances of that happening then perhaps this is Anets encouragement for us to consolidate the WvW population into fewer servers.
Consolidation is already happening to a degree that I wouldn’t have thought possible. In NA, kitten and T3 are looking pretty well populated and fairly balanced. These new mechanics would seem to work well for those conditions.
And if the new changes make things worse – especially regarding time zones – then Anet may need to take drastic measures. Measures such as time sliced matches or shorter matches with more resets per week or other suggestions that have been made. Change is good. Even when it forces more change.
in the current meta, if a server is totally dominating a map(lets say your BL) your server can still small man yaks and supply camps, and still manage to never allow those keeps/towers to be upgraded.
In the new system, you can’t even do that. So it will be that much more PvD for the under pop server, having to PvD fully upgraded objectives without the man power.
It’s making weaker pop weaker.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
in the current meta, if a server is totally dominating a map(lets say your BL) your server can still small man yaks and supply camps, and still manage to never allow those keeps/towers to be upgraded.
In the new system, you can’t even do that. So it will be that much more PvD for the under pop server, having to PvD fully upgraded objectives without the man power.
It’s making weaker pop weaker.
How would that change anything? The weaker server will always loose to PPT, just like it does today. Arguing that a server dominating will do it better is pointless. If you find that you enter a border with all T3 tomorrow because an enemy server was nightcapping and your server did nothing… You’ll find that the same server will have an entire border with all T3 from nightcapping after the new system too.
They will always lose in the PPT.. however they don’t need to be destroyed to the point that they won’t even enter WvW because everything is always upgraded against them.
There are solutions for the outmanned server to have siege damage bonus/reduction when the outmanned buff is up. but Anet.
The new system, will not allow a low pop server or ANY server to counter an objective from upgraded. And thats the problem. Slowing down an upgrade is meaningless, if it’s still going to upgrade regardless of how many yaks i try to stop.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
The new system, will not allow a low pop server or ANY server to counter an objective from upgraded. And thats the problem. Slowing down an upgrade is meaningless, if it’s still going to upgrade regardless of how many yaks i try to stop.
So what, you’re saying that the tiers which are currently running 170K for 1st and 80-90K for 3rd are allowing enemy keeps to be upgraded by not killing dollys?
You are giving underdogs way to much credit in their capabilities of stopping a dominating server. Last time I checked, not even T1 servers stop each other, dollys slip through completely unattended all the time with keeps brimming of supplies because, well, borders are empty much of the night and early day. I question whether T2 and below has that much more population to keep up the dolly slaughter 24/7 and stop keeps from upgrading.
Servers are already being destroyed to the point they barely put up a match.
Allowing them, no. Your confusing PPT with upgrades.
A dominating server can have all the PPT by capturing everything in the current system, and they can spend their time and money upgrading it. And the underpop server can actually counter those upgrades by killing yaks and flipping camps.
In the new proposed system, the dominating server is having all the PPT by caputing everything, and not spending any time or effort having to defend camps or escort yaks, because all the objectives are upgrading regardless if a yak reaches the objective or not.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
Allowing them, no. Your confusing PPT with upgrades.
A dominating server can have all the PPT by capturing everything in the current system, and they can spend their time and money upgrading it. And the underpop server can actually counter those upgrades by killing yaks and flipping camps.
In the new proposed system, the dominating server is having all the PPT by caputing everything, and not spending any time or effort having to defend camps or escort yaks, because all the objectives are upgrading regardless if a yak reaches the objective or not.
Yeah I get what you are saying, the question is do they kill all the dollys?
By your logic, no server would ever reach T1 let alone T3 with the current system because the enemy would constantly kill dollys and flip camps. The “underdog can completely counter” scenario is a myth that doesnt happen. You can only delay it… Which incidently is exactly what the new system does as well.
the problem with auto upgrade and free upgrade is that actually you need people to hold supply camp, and people to pay for upgrade and start the upgrade.
Very few people will give money to upgrade ennemy keep, and a lot don’t want to just protect supply camp.
Night crew will try to play ppt, not stand on ennemy map for upgrade it.
With actual system when you wake up the morning it’s very few time that you can see all T3 upgraded, and camp fully upgraded.
Now you can be sure to see a lot of ennemy structure T2 or T3 on the morning…. This is the real issue ! When you are only 5 people it’s very boring to take back T3 keep… You will not be able to take back fully upgraded camp alone…
And if it’s too boring, people will just disconnect, and make something else….
Allowing them, no. Your confusing PPT with upgrades.
A dominating server can have all the PPT by capturing everything in the current system, and they can spend their time and money upgrading it. And the underpop server can actually counter those upgrades by killing yaks and flipping camps.
In the new proposed system, the dominating server is having all the PPT by caputing everything, and not spending any time or effort having to defend camps or escort yaks, because all the objectives are upgrading regardless if a yak reaches the objective or not.
Yeah I get what you are saying, the question is do they kill all the dollys?
By your logic, no server would ever reach T1 let alone T3 with the current system because the enemy would constantly kill dollys and flip camps. The “underdog can completely counter” scenario is a myth that doesnt happen. You can only delay it… Which incidently is exactly what the new system does as well.
yes they do kill yaks. Heck on reset nights, i make my guild do exactly that on our server in the enemy BL.. snipe yaks all day. Not only does it deny the castles/towers to be upgraded, making them weaker and easier for our troops to eventually penetrate them, it also denies supply to build up siege.
When you kill enough yaks, it forces the enemy players(at least in the current system) that NEED those yaks to upgrade their objectives, to start sending troops to the yaks.
So now not only do you have open field fights around the yaks, but your also making the enemy force spread it’s zerg out and around to defend all the yaks. Now instead of the blob you have to deal with.. it’s many small battles you have to win.
With the enemy blob spread out, your lesser population server now has a window to take a non-upgraded objective right for the enemies hands.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
The idea with cap then leave it alone and then 5hours later it fully upgraded without any dolys or anyone even been to the building feels bad. It only promote more PVD without defense.
The idea were it is how many dolys that make it to building / leave camps the count and then 1 player must go select upgraded x on building without any cost I think sound like a good middle ground, yes players can mess with the server but better that then no activity what so ever is required.
(edited by Shadow.3475)
The ready up said that they want to limit the ability of players to make bad decisions. Wherever there is a bad decision to be made, there is usually a strategic decision possible as well.
Bad Decision: Popping merchants during a long, drawn-out keep siege.
Strategic Decision: Popping merchants when the circle is flipping and all hope is lost to deny them hundreds of supply.
Bad Decision: Popping a camp upgrade when the commander just said that he’s taking his zerg to that camp to resupply.
Strategic Decision: Popping a camp upgrade when it looks like the camp will be taken (to deny them supply).
Bad Decision: Letting enemy yaks get through to objectives with defenders inside.
Strategic Decision: Letting an enemy yak get through to an undefended objective so there is more supply inside when you take it.
Right now, a solitary defender can deny attackers a ton of supply by popping an upgrade. To achieve the same goal in the future, that solitary defender will have to spend an exhaustive amount of time building worthless siege or dumping supply into a wall to achieve the same goal.
In short: WvW will have less strategic nuance and Zergs in the future will get tons of extra supply from objectives because you can’t actively order upgrades that burn tons of supply.
yes they do kill yaks. Heck on reset nights, i make my guild do exactly that on our server in the enemy BL.. snipe yaks all day. Not only does it deny the castles/towers to be upgraded, making them weaker and easier for our troops to eventually penetrate them, it also denies supply to build up siege.
When you kill enough yaks, it forces the enemy players(at least in the current system) that NEED those yaks to upgrade their objectives, to start sending troops to the yaks.
So now not only do you have open field fights around the yaks, but your also making the enemy force spread it’s zerg out and around to defend all the yaks. Now instead of the blob you have to deal with.. it’s many small battles you have to win.
With the enemy blob spread out, your lesser population server now has a window to take a non-upgraded objective right for the enemies hands.
And does it work? Is your server winning the current matchup? Is no keeps being upgraded on the enemy borders?
yes it works, until we go to sleep =) but when we wake up, we do it all over again.. and it works. it’s how the game is designed to work.
No Yaks = No supply = No upgrades. it’s very simple.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
The more I think about this the more it displaces solo roamers/havoc. Even now it’s very difficult to take a tower alone since most other roaming groups are 2 or more and can easily stall a solo roamer from killing the npcs and capping- but it can be done, and it’s easy to take an empty tower with 2. A solo roamer can flip camps and make a big impact on the upgrading of a keep and towers, which helps their server greatly.
After this change anyone who wants to help their server will need to be part of a larger group to take even a neglected tower.
EotM is all automatic with pve bosses that can’t be flipped by a small group, and it is clear what kind of gameplay that results in.
Changes to the ability system were implemented to create a lower barrier of entry for WvW. New players who want to participate in WvW have a lot stacked against them, particularly if they’re low level;
I am hoping “level” actually refers to world rank. Even so it’s looking more and more like anet prefers endless mindless zerging EotM over strategic and challenging WvW which is a crying shame because wvw is the closest thing gw2 has to endgame, and the only continually compelling content for veteran players.
EotM is all automatic with pve bosses that can’t be flipped by a small group, and it is clear what kind of gameplay that results in.
Haha they can be flipped by a small group easily. What take a 30 man EoTM group 1 minute and leave half the raid wiped take a 10 man guild group about 10 seconds with them not loosing any HP.
Its just that few such groups really run EoTM. If you where to make EoTM into a normal WvW map (ie a border, just remove champs outside keeps and add ppt) it would play completely different.
In what way did the article make it seem like yaks weren’t important? Yeah, upgrades won’t rely entirely on yaks, but they would complete at a snail’s pace. No one wants their upgrades to complete slower. People will still escort yaks.
Sounds like five minutes being the difference isn’t going to be enough to make it “slow” or “fast”.
I watched the relative Ready Up.
They remove points of conflict,as they say,and the ability to make bad choices,
or any choices whatsoever,I say.
Make the mode more accessible to players that don’t want to spend time
to think about the game,but just follow a tag for a couple of hours.
And that sums it up.
WvW was already a light,soulless version of a RvR game.
Now it loses more fat.
And the trend says it’ll be even more slim in the years to come.
Welcome to RvR 0%.
lose a pip,win 2 pips,lose a pip,lose a pip…………..-
-Go go Espartz.-
As someone who has played a lot of WvW I have to say I’m looking forward to these changes.
With these supply/upgrade changes no longer can server trolls build useless siege that hit nothing and stop your upgrades from happening.. No longer will server trolls be able to order guard upgrades as soon as a zerg is attacking an objective instead of using that supply for siege..
The wp changes sound interesting but will have to see how it plays out.. With the current system it is really unfair to the under populated servers to have to wake up to fully upgraded keeps and as soon as you start to try to take it back with a small group, a zerg just spams the wp when the timer is about to expire and BAM you are not getting that keep back..
I understand that some fear that they will still wake up to fully fortified stuff but are not seeing that now the enemy will NOT have the wp advantage and will have to use the spawn wp to actually get to you. Giving you a better chance to get inside instead of hoping that a zerg doesn’t wp in while you are trying to bust down the gate.
As it is now you can take a fortified tower with 1 super ram in a couple of minutes. That is 5 players with 10 supplies each. Here is an example:
I tossed a super ram the other day with my group at the southeast tower in a BL. We built the ram and I started to ram it. The rest of my group ran to the southeast camp which we already owned, to grab supplies to also build a regular ram. By the time they returned to me, I had the gate down to 25% so we didn’t even build a regular ram.
For people saying that these changes will kill small roaming groups you are 100% incorrect. With the example above all you will have to do is split into groups of 5 and you can take back most of your stuff pretty fast. If a zerg does come to stop you, they will still have to run to you from their spawn. If you are split up on the map, chances are they may stop you from maybe taking a few objective back. If you are attacking more than one objective at a time well you are doing it right.. If you Zerg each objective you are doing it wrong..
That is just my opinion but the thing is, people have been complaining forever that we get no changes. We are finally getting some and still people are not happy and we haven’t even tried it yet. (think about the QQ’s from the test event with no white swords) Now don’t go saying this isn’t what we asked for because if Anet listened to every suggestion from players WvW would be long dead and gone for me.
Here’s what Anet should have asked from the start:
“What do you, the comunity, think of this idea?
What changes, if any, would you as the comunity like to see?”
If I remember correctly, there was only one case since beta when ANET really care about players thoughts and actually asked players community what they want – an ingame event called “Captain’s Council election” where developers let GW2 playerbase to decide a winner – (Evon Gnashblade vs Ellen Kiel, 52% of players voted for Ellen Kiel). So don’t expect this attitude from ANET too much, you would be disapointed.
Make keeps worth 15 points at T1 , 20 points at T2, and 25 points at T3. Towers can go from 5 to 10 and SM can go from 25 to 35.
This is an excellent idea!
+1 for this one
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/Collaborative-Development-Edge-of-the-Mists/3758657
so a year ago… someone complained about dolyaks.. Anet decided to listen, to some EOTM player.. and remove yaks from WvW…
EOTM is not good WvW combat.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/Collaborative-Development-Edge-of-the-Mists/3758657
so a year ago… someone complained about dolyaks.. Anet decided to listen, to some EOTM player.. and remove yaks from WvW…
EOTM is not good WvW combat.
Too bad they didn’t listen to Kraag Deadsoul instead.
Anet says the upgrade changes were because “players had the ability to make decisions that weren’t meaningful or fun.”
The point of upgrades is clearly… to upgrade. But it also had a more nuanced strategy… denying supply to the enemy.
Countless times, I’ve been the one to burn all the supply out of a keep/tower/camp right before it flips… sometimes even having to rez the quartermaster to do it. The reason is… I’m the guy who watches the map, calls out swords even if there’s no one else on… and I go to respond. If the zerg is taking a structure and there is nothing in the world that can save it… I have that little piece of defiance. There is SOMETHING I can do. I can swoop in and pop an upgrade and deny them hundreds of supply instantly, which can slow their advance across the map.
It may not be meangful to you, but it is meaningful to me.