Guild Wars 2

lil devils x.6071:

Teon.5168:

As has been posted by others in these forums before……‘there is no reasoning with you on this subject’…..

I will put it as simply as I can……

You lost. Dbls is coming back. Learn to deal with it.

And, as hard as it is to imagine for you……it is JUST a game.

THAT is what I don’t think you understand, you see the way players will deal with is they will not play this game anymore.. at all. Keeping in mind that it is just a game is exactly it, they just won’t be playing this game anymore. The goal was to take DBL back to beta and let them fix it from the beginning. The very first time it was brought up, that was the suggestion. They didn’t " get" it so now the game will lose the players who won’t play with it in the game, then they will lose the players who want to play with those players then they will lose the players that want to play with them.We actually had to beg people to come back to the game already, that isn’t going to happen the next time. THAT was all I was trying to stop. I have offered several options to not make players leave at all and have the DBL in the live game when it is made playable for all classes. If anyone thinks " winning" means the game massively loses population, I would hate to see what losing means. This is just a no win situation.

Funny how you seem to think that you have such a huge impact on the game and its playerbase.

You might want to re-evaluate that.

Teon.5168:

lil devils x.6071:

Teon.5168:

As has been posted by others in these forums before……‘there is no reasoning with you on this subject’…..

I will put it as simply as I can……

You lost. Dbls is coming back. Learn to deal with it.

And, as hard as it is to imagine for you……it is JUST a game.

THAT is what I don’t think you understand, you see the way players will deal with is they will not play this game anymore.. at all. Keeping in mind that it is just a game is exactly it, they just won’t be playing this game anymore. The goal was to take DBL back to beta and let them fix it from the beginning. The very first time it was brought up, that was the suggestion. They didn’t " get" it so now the game will lose the players who won’t play with it in the game, then they will lose the players who want to play with those players then they will lose the players that want to play with them.We actually had to beg people to come back to the game already, that isn’t going to happen the next time. THAT was all I was trying to stop. I have offered several options to not make players leave at all and have the DBL in the live game when it is made playable for all classes. If anyone thinks " winning" means the game massively loses population, I would hate to see what losing means. This is just a no win situation.

Funny how you seem to think that you have such a huge impact on the game and its playerbase.

You might want to re-evaluate that.

It has nothing to do with me.. I was just ASKING people.. might try that some time. This was what people were discussing every where I went.. So many had left, I asked them what it would take to bring them back to the game, that is what they said.. Multiple guilds came back due to this however, that isn’t going to change things next time. You fail to realize that it isn’t even about what I want. Much of what I want in a game is irrelevant since most people dont even play full loot here. I just bothered to find out what it would take to bring them back by asking people.

All I want is for the people I enjoy playing this game with and against ( yes rivals as well as allies) to be able to play a game that everyone enjoys and not have everyone on different games again. This used to be the game we all could play together.

Desert Borderlands made me quit WvW entirely.
Too huge. Verticality only gets in the way. Too desert in terms of player activity.

But it has several very exciting interesting things and ideas. So I’d not say yes or no. But instead: Make it smaller, remove empty space, and make it less limiting to mobility.

Another idea could be having only one Desert BL map instead of one instance for each World!

Clearly Lil Dev knows is so in tune with what the mass majority of people want he/she should create and sell his/her own game.

Or

only bothers to talk with his/her like minded friends and overstates everything …. Not going to bother with this anymore…..

Liston.9708:

Clearly Lil Dev knows is so in tune with what the mass majority of people want he/she should create and sell his/her own game.

Or

only bothers to talk with his/her like minded friends and overstates everything …. Not going to bother with this anymore…..

Why TY Liston for offering me the $30m to get started on my own game, but it is going to take more than that because I want to build a game that is player driven and much more immersive than one like this. In my game, I want the books in the in game libraries to be written by players, the statues in town to be of the players with the best skills and achievements, for the wanted posters to be of the players with the most kills and every item in the game to be craftable, customizable, tradable, dropable, salvageable and useful and the game to not be filled with mindless repetition. That takes a MUCH bigger budget :P

lil devils x.6071:

A proper poll would have been one that was email invite only to WvW players past and present over a certain rank.

You and I agree on some things:

• Players that support the game should have fun
• That we need new maps
• We want as many people as possible
• We want to retain as many people as possible
• That people will quit if forced into a map they don’t like

Now where we don’t agree:

• People that have never encountered a map should have a vote – your concept of past people weighing in on a map that they didn’t try I disagree with
• That a map should favor zerg over all other, I want maps that encourage play for all sizes of groups
• X-Y-Z access fights, you are interested in flat, I am interested in multi-dimension fights
• That people will stay if given options on maps and mix dbs are ok since they offer choice
• That prioritizing people that left over people that have been here all along is the better target audience
• That one servers opinion is more valid then anothers
• That there is only one right answer, compromise is ok
• That pop was gained due to ABL, to me it gained after other changes but then dropped after ABL, but that was what I saw without having access to numbers that ANet has

We both want players in the game-mode, but disagree on what caused a decrease versus other factors.

TheGrimm.5624:

lil devils x.6071:

A proper poll would have been one that was email invite only to WvW players past and present over a certain rank.

You and I agree on some things:

• Players that support the game should have fun
• That we need new maps
• We want as many people as possible
• We want to retain as many people as possible
• That people will quit if forced into a map they don’t like

Now where we don’t agree:

• People that have never encountered a map should have a vote – your concept of past people weighing in on a map that they didn’t try I disagree with
• That a map should favor zerg over all other, I want maps that encourage play for all sizes of groups
• X-Y-Z access fights, you are interested in flat, I am interested in multi-dimension fights
• That people will stay if given options on maps and mix dbs are ok since they offer choice
• That prioritizing people that left over people that have been here all along is the better target audience
• That one servers opinion is more valid then anothers
• That there is only one right answer, compromise is ok
• That pop was gained due to ABL, to me it gained after other changes but then dropped after ABL, but that was what I saw without having access to numbers that ANet has

We both want players in the game-mode, but disagree on what caused a decrease versus other factors.

Why would you think I disagree with those? I said a map should start focused on the player experience straight out of spawn, 3 seconds hit an objective, why do you want to fight over that objective? ( have to have a good reason to want to fight over objectives, both personal and for the team) How does that objective increase game play of each class in the game? How does each classes skills work to their benefit in that zone? What strategic value does that objective have to other objectives? Can the objective be attacked from multiple directions in numerous ways to increase strategic options? Is there enough space to fight in the area for all types of combat? 3 seconds.. next objective.. rinse and repeat. That is not focusing a map for just a zerg, that is focusing a map on PvP combat for every class in the game regardless of amount of people in the battle. It focuses on the player experience. The skin should be the afterthought and keeping players engaged in nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on the map regardless of class or group size should be the focus.

I offered a compromise, I asked them to take it back to Beta and allow players to test it and give feedback, make corrections then release the map live again once the players vote that it is ready to be live. It is not compromising to try and put a map into the game that people have shown that some classes skills cannot use all their skills in important areas due to the topography and keep design. Players not being able to use their skills on a map in a PvP zone is really unacceptable for a live map. The issues with the vertical and space provided in zones also created issues with classes being able to be utilized equally and that should never be an issue in a PvP zone.

One servers opinion is not any more important than another, I wasn’t even aware any server was all of the same opinion, or that people even had the ability to speak/ vote for an entire server. People vary greatly even on the same server. What is important is that every update increase the game population, increase player happiness and increase game longevity. If it isn’t doing that, something is wrong.

Population was gained due to ABL, did you not see the activity graphs someone posted here? It was pretty obvious looking at those numbers.. There is a player who keeps posting those on here every so often. I regretfully do not recall their player name right now to go search for it, but anyone who does can post a link. In addition, there were numerous threads here thanking Anet for their return as well as entire guilds stating they returned for that reason.

They are not prioritizing people that left over people that stay, they are prioritizing all players equally. All paid for the game just the same, all deserve to be heard the same. I don’t think they should prioritize anyone over another with the exception of requiring a specific WvW rank to vote on WvW only due to players who do not know about WvW should not really be making the decisions for a game mode they do not know enough about. Treating all players equally who actually have played the game mode sufficiently enough to understand it’s pros and cons is the best way to ensure the game modes longevity. The Beta invites to WvW players went out in Email, so can the polls.

lil devils x.6071:

TheGrimm.5624:

lil devils x.6071:

A proper poll would have been one that was email invite only to WvW players past and present over a certain rank.

You and I agree on some things:

• Players that support the game should have fun
• That we need new maps
• We want as many people as possible
• We want to retain as many people as possible
• That people will quit if forced into a map they don’t like

Now where we don’t agree:

• People that have never encountered a map should have a vote – your concept of past people weighing in on a map that they didn’t try I disagree with
• That a map should favor zerg over all other, I want maps that encourage play for all sizes of groups
• X-Y-Z access fights, you are interested in flat, I am interested in multi-dimension fights
• That people will stay if given options on maps and mix dbs are ok since they offer choice
• That prioritizing people that left over people that have been here all along is the better target audience
• That one servers opinion is more valid then anothers
• That there is only one right answer, compromise is ok
• That pop was gained due to ABL, to me it gained after other changes but then dropped after ABL, but that was what I saw without having access to numbers that ANet has

We both want players in the game-mode, but disagree on what caused a decrease versus other factors.

Why would you think I disagree with those? I said a map should start focused on the player experience straight out of spawn, 3 seconds hit an objective, why do you want to fight over that objective? ( have to have a good reason to want to fight over objectives, both personal and for the team) How does that objective increase game play of each class in the game? How does each classes skills work to their benefit in that zone? What strategic value does that objective have to other objectives? Can the objective be attacked from multiple directions in numerous ways to increase strategic options? Is there enough space to fight in the area for all types of combat? 3 seconds.. next objective.. rinse and repeat. That is not focusing a map for just a zerg, that is focusing a map on PvP combat for every class in the game regardless of amount of people in the battle. It focuses on the player experience. The skin should be the afterthought and keeping players engaged in nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on the map regardless of class or group size should be the focus.

I offered a compromise, I asked them to take it back to Beta and allow players to test it and give feedback, make corrections then release the map live again once the players vote that it is ready to be live. It is not compromising to try and put a map into the game that people have shown that some classes skills cannot use all their skills in important areas due to the topography and keep design. Players not being able to use their skills on a map in a PvP zone is really unacceptable for a live map. The issues with the vertical and space provided in zones also created issues with classes being able to be utilized equally and that should never be an issue in a PvP zone.

One servers opinion is not any more important than another, I wasn’t even aware any server was all of the same opinion, or that people even had the ability to speak/ vote for an entire server. People vary greatly even on the same server. What is important is that every update increase the game population, increase player happiness and increase game longevity. If it isn’t doing that, something is wrong.

Population was gained due to ABL, did you not see the activity graphs someone posted here? It was pretty obvious looking at those numbers.. There is a player who keeps posting those on here every so often. I regretfully do not recall their player name right now to go search for it, but anyone who does can post a link. In addition, there were numerous threads here thanking Anet for their return as well as entire guilds stating they returned for that reason.

They are not prioritizing people that left over people that stay, they are prioritizing all players equally. All paid for the game just the same, all deserve to be heard the same. I don’t think they should prioritize anyone over another with the exception of requiring a specific WvW rank to vote on WvW only due to players who do not know about WvW should not really be making the decisions for a game mode they do not know enough about. Treating all players equally who actually have played the game mode sufficiently enough to understand it’s pros and cons is the best way to ensure the game modes longevity. The Beta invites to WvW players went out in Email, so can the polls.

There was also a lot of screens posted od this forum with empty ABLs during prime time So i quess you just ignore them beacause they do not fit to your vision After first week of ABL, on my server, they are as empty as DBLs were. I literally never saw q for all maps, so if you would bring back DBL and 2 ALB then 1 ALB and 1 DBL would be empty and hollow. So nothing will change.
Exepct one thing – people who dont like flat and boring ABL would have chance to play on thier favorite map Everybody wins
And for all those who say that DBL is too complicated and hard to navigate – nothing in DBL was as annyoing as way out from World Citadel in ALB.

Ardhiel.8531:

lil devils x.6071:

TheGrimm.5624:

lil devils x.6071:

A proper poll would have been one that was email invite only to WvW players past and present over a certain rank.

You and I agree on some things:

• Players that support the game should have fun
• That we need new maps
• We want as many people as possible
• We want to retain as many people as possible
• That people will quit if forced into a map they don’t like

Now where we don’t agree:

• People that have never encountered a map should have a vote – your concept of past people weighing in on a map that they didn’t try I disagree with
• That a map should favor zerg over all other, I want maps that encourage play for all sizes of groups
• X-Y-Z access fights, you are interested in flat, I am interested in multi-dimension fights
• That people will stay if given options on maps and mix dbs are ok since they offer choice
• That prioritizing people that left over people that have been here all along is the better target audience
• That one servers opinion is more valid then anothers
• That there is only one right answer, compromise is ok
• That pop was gained due to ABL, to me it gained after other changes but then dropped after ABL, but that was what I saw without having access to numbers that ANet has

We both want players in the game-mode, but disagree on what caused a decrease versus other factors.

Why would you think I disagree with those? I said a map should start focused on the player experience straight out of spawn, 3 seconds hit an objective, why do you want to fight over that objective? ( have to have a good reason to want to fight over objectives, both personal and for the team) How does that objective increase game play of each class in the game? How does each classes skills work to their benefit in that zone? What strategic value does that objective have to other objectives? Can the objective be attacked from multiple directions in numerous ways to increase strategic options? Is there enough space to fight in the area for all types of combat? 3 seconds.. next objective.. rinse and repeat. That is not focusing a map for just a zerg, that is focusing a map on PvP combat for every class in the game regardless of amount of people in the battle. It focuses on the player experience. The skin should be the afterthought and keeping players engaged in nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on the map regardless of class or group size should be the focus.

I offered a compromise, I asked them to take it back to Beta and allow players to test it and give feedback, make corrections then release the map live again once the players vote that it is ready to be live. It is not compromising to try and put a map into the game that people have shown that some classes skills cannot use all their skills in important areas due to the topography and keep design. Players not being able to use their skills on a map in a PvP zone is really unacceptable for a live map. The issues with the vertical and space provided in zones also created issues with classes being able to be utilized equally and that should never be an issue in a PvP zone.

One servers opinion is not any more important than another, I wasn’t even aware any server was all of the same opinion, or that people even had the ability to speak/ vote for an entire server. People vary greatly even on the same server. What is important is that every update increase the game population, increase player happiness and increase game longevity. If it isn’t doing that, something is wrong.

Population was gained due to ABL, did you not see the activity graphs someone posted here? It was pretty obvious looking at those numbers.. There is a player who keeps posting those on here every so often. I regretfully do not recall their player name right now to go search for it, but anyone who does can post a link. In addition, there were numerous threads here thanking Anet for their return as well as entire guilds stating they returned for that reason.

They are not prioritizing people that left over people that stay, they are prioritizing all players equally. All paid for the game just the same, all deserve to be heard the same. I don’t think they should prioritize anyone over another with the exception of requiring a specific WvW rank to vote on WvW only due to players who do not know about WvW should not really be making the decisions for a game mode they do not know enough about. Treating all players equally who actually have played the game mode sufficiently enough to understand it’s pros and cons is the best way to ensure the game modes longevity. The Beta invites to WvW players went out in Email, so can the polls.

There was also a lot of screens posted od this forum with empty ABLs during prime time So i quess you just ignore them beacause they do not fit to your vision After first week of ABL, on my server, they are as empty as DBLs were. I literally never saw q for all maps, so if you would bring back DBL and 2 ALB then 1 ALB and 1 DBL would be empty and hollow. So nothing will change.
Exepct one thing – people who dont like flat and boring ABL would have chance to play on thier favorite map Everybody wins
And for all those who say that DBL is too complicated and hard to navigate – nothing in DBL was as annyoing as way out from World Citadel in ALB.

I was not using random screens, I was using the data charts showing the actual numbers. ABL is not even flat, EBG is. DBL still had zones where some classes could not even use their skills AFTER they remodeled it. FYI, I do not know anyone who wanted to not have new maps, they just wanted maps designed for PvP instead of the mess they were presented with. They just wanted to wait on ABL WHILE Anet worked on making a good map instead. DBL was not ready for live game.

A map should start focused on the player experience straight out of spawn, 3 seconds hit an objective, why do you want to fight over that objective? ( have to have a good reason to want to fight over objectives, both personal and for the team) How does that objective increase game play of each class in the game? How does each classes skills work to their benefit in that zone? What strategic value does that objective have to other objectives? Can the objective be attacked from multiple directions in numerous ways to increase strategic options? Is there enough space to fight in the area for all types of combat? 3 seconds.. next objective.. rinse and repeat. The DBL was the opposite of that. The game play and player experience was an after thought when it is the skin that should be the afterthought.

If you want to start limiting voters, anyone that plays ebg over 80% of their time, or eotm, or gained said ranks in either should not get to vote. End of story.

Those of us that only play bls liked dbl just fine and had the patience and skill to traverse the map without getting lost or falling to our deaths. Alpine is boring blob fights like ebg and, frankly, stale.

Interesting poll there, where one of the points contains two options that do not necessarily need to go together. I thought you said you won’t be doing that anymore.

Hint: not wanting Desert does not mean not wanting a new, good wvw map. If you word the question that way, even people that absolutely hate dbl will think twice before answering.

Astralporing.1957:

Interesting poll there, where one of the points contains two options that do not necessarily need to go together. I thought you said you won’t be doing that anymore.

Hint: not wanting Desert does not mean not wanting a new, good wvw map. If you word the question that way, even people that absolutely hate dbl will think twice before answering.

All they said was that they were MORE LIKELY to devote time and resources to creating a new map this way. Which makes sense from a business perspective as well as a mechanic perspective. (Its all right for all three servers to have one map but if a server has a different map the creation of a third to finish the pattern is the logical conclusion) People that see it as a threat to not create more are caught up in the typical persecution complex that afflicts the minority or those that thought themselves in the right but are now forced to face differing opinions rather than roll over them.

Astralporing.1957:

Hint: not wanting Desert does not mean not wanting a new, good wvw map. If you word the question that way, even people that absolutely hate dbl will think twice before answering.

Well Tyler did say on reddit back when the previous mixed borderlands poll was going on that were mixed borderlands to become a thing it would be more likely that new maps are more feasible because the system that uses mixed maps is more conducive to developing a third (borderlands) map. Although even then a new map would be developed only if put up for a vote and won as a priority.

Manwhile the rotation strategy currently requires manual intervention, which is why rotating more often than once every quarter has not been brought up, for the foreseeable future. That is unless they invest dev time into developing an automated system for it.

Now taking the above statements in context is important, because back when Tyler said this they had no intention of running the “Remove desert borderlands?” poll at all, that we know of.

However, like I said in another topic if we consider that the WvW team is still the one who decides what to poll the community about it is quite reasonable to assume that if DBL were to be entirely removed they would be less likely to put development of a new fresh map up for a vote. I can offer two potential reasons for this, first and foremost developing a brand new map is very costly and secondly if mixed borderlands is not something that happens they would have to once again replace all three maps with the new map until map selection would be re-evaluated.

Also, additionally WvW testing at a realistic scale for them seems to be extremely difficult looking at how past testing was organized and how it apparently failed or did not happen early enough in map development.

Why does this poll have such a long uptime, while others, which also needed a supermajority (DBL and ABL mixed) didn’t? Seems a bit unfair especially since the poll about the mixed BL was a close one.

So uh for the people saying they wanted a new map but don’t want dbl.

What happens if we vote for a new map, they make it, and you don’t like it, gonna ask them to delete that too?

Thanks, McKenna! Looking forward to the next poll.

Xenesis.6389:

So uh for the people saying they wanted a new map but don’t want dbl.

What happens if we vote for a new map, they make it, and you don’t like it, gonna ask them to delete that too?

ANY map made for WvW should not be put into the live game until it was properly finished in Beta and tested and corrected until it was made ready for the live game. If they allowed players to provide feedback and used that feedback to correct the issues with the map before they make it live, they would not have had this problem in the first place. The goal was to not have this one or any other go live until the players voted that it was ready. That never happened, and now they can’t do much of what needs to be done due to it being in the live game and not beta.

lil devils x.6071:

Xenesis.6389:

So uh for the people saying they wanted a new map but don’t want dbl.

What happens if we vote for a new map, they make it, and you don’t like it, gonna ask them to delete that too?

ANY map made for WvW should not be put into the live game until it was properly finished in Beta and tested and corrected until it was made ready for the live game. If they allowed players to provide feedback and used that feedback to correct the issues with the map before they make it live, they would not have had this problem in the first place. The goal was to not have this one or any other go live until the players voted that it was ready. That never happened, and now they can’t do much of what needs to be done due to it being in the live game and not beta.

Completely ignoring the fact that Alpine was introduced with bugged orbs that was removed and later had a quarter of the map deleted in order to make the ruins. WvW maps have changed in the live game since game release. It’s really just a matter of reaction time and quick changes, not keeping completely silent for nearly half a year while the community hold its breath and just about suffocate to death.

Colour me confused

- wasn’t the Threshold 75%? wasn’t the threshold for the last Poll also 75%?

Neither Poll managed a 75% majority but one of them got through and one didn’t despite the one that didn’t having almost exactly the same amount of votes as the one that did….

I mean im happy with the results but im wary of any Polls in the future if the positive result threshold is just arbitrarily decided.

Just give us 3 different Maps and call it a day I say.

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

Xenesis.6389:

So uh for the people saying they wanted a new map but don’t want dbl.

What happens if we vote for a new map, they make it, and you don’t like it, gonna ask them to delete that too?

ANY map made for WvW should not be put into the live game until it was properly finished in Beta and tested and corrected until it was made ready for the live game. If they allowed players to provide feedback and used that feedback to correct the issues with the map before they make it live, they would not have had this problem in the first place. The goal was to not have this one or any other go live until the players voted that it was ready. That never happened, and now they can’t do much of what needs to be done due to it being in the live game and not beta.

Completely ignoring the fact that Alpine was introduced with bugged orbs that was removed and later had a quarter of the map deleted in order to make the ruins. WvW maps have changed in the live game since game release. It’s really just a matter of reaction time and quick changes, not keeping completely silent for nearly half a year while the community hold its breath and just about suffocate to death.

It took them how long to fix spawn trebson ABL? The concern here is they said they could not fix what needs to be fixed if it is in the live game . This means it will never be fixed :s

Rococo.8347:

Colour me confused

- wasn’t the Threshold 75%? wasn’t the threshold for the last Poll also 75%?

Neither Poll managed a 75% majority but one of them got through and one didn’t despite the one that didn’t having almost exactly the same amount of votes as the one that did….

I mean im happy with the results but im wary of any Polls in the future if the positive result threshold is just arbitrarily decided.

Just give us 3 different Maps and call it a day I say.

This poll was 75%….75% had to agree to get rid of dbls completely….that didn’t happen…by a long shot. The poll before this one didn’t have the 75% requirement.

Rococo.8347:

Colour me confused
– wasn’t the Threshold 75%? wasn’t the threshold for the last Poll also 75%?

Neither Poll managed a 75% majority but one of them got through and one didn’t despite the one that didn’t having almost exactly the same amount of votes as the one that did….

I mean im happy with the results but im wary of any Polls in the future if the positive result threshold is just arbitrarily decided.
Just give us 3 different Maps and call it a day I say.

Read the polls… not all of them will require 75% majority, mostly the ones that will put through a major change.

This one did require 75% for a “Yes”, but it only got 34.5%.

lil devils x.6071:

Xenesis.6389:

So uh for the people saying they wanted a new map but don’t want dbl.

What happens if we vote for a new map, they make it, and you don’t like it, gonna ask them to delete that too?

ANY map made for WvW should not be put into the live game until it was properly finished in Beta and tested and corrected until it was made ready for the live game. If they allowed players to provide feedback and used that feedback to correct the issues with the map before they make it live, they would not have had this problem in the first place. The goal was to not have this one or any other go live until the players voted that it was ready. That never happened, and now they can’t do much of what needs to be done due to it being in the live game and not beta.

If they’re going to ask us they need to do it in Alpha. Once it gets to Beta its too late to make significant changes.

Put out a draft of the map then we can see the popup walls, the stealth sand, the center mechanism, the maze like structure, the ugly giant keeps and say, “No, no, no, no and no.” Before any programming starts. Saves them a lot of work and everyone a lot of grief.

lil devils x.6071:

ANY map made for WvW should not be put into the live game until it was properly finished in Beta and tested and corrected until it was made ready for the live game. If they allowed players to provide feedback and used that feedback to correct the issues with the map before they make it live, they would not have had this problem in the first place. The goal was to not have this one or any other go live until the players voted that it was ready. That never happened, and now they can’t do much of what needs to be done due to it being in the live game and not beta.

Problem with separate beta testing is not many are going to actively download a separate client to test it, players are lazy, that’s why they even had to do focus testing for a couple days. Barely anyone showed up for the second beta test of the map, which in part was Anet’s fault in not notifying players properly, but players are not interested in testing in a separate area.

Fact of the matter is you will find more bugs in a shorter period of time in the live environment than you would with months of beta testing. That’s why they did a lot of live testing for the expansion, they don’t exactly have WoW’s numbers to do a separate beta test for everything.

And as mentioned above, Alpines had it’s problems that have been fixed over time (and still does but not really game breaking). Orbs were a major hacking problem that had to be taken out, eventually the lake was turned into the ruins to bring back the bloodlust buff from orbs. Latest problem was the siege in citadel which they have addressed.

A lot of dbl problems can be fixed if players go in and play, and report anything that seems broken, or write up anything that could be made better, instead of I DON’T LIKE IT SO JUST DELETE IT AND START OVER!.

For something like north towers not being useful, we’re going to have to rely on Anet to come up with something for them, there’s been like a dozen ideas thrown around, hopefully one seems reasonable.

Ahhh good old Dyslexia – I thought it was asking for a 75% threshold for both answers.

Still the last Poll was badly done, it allowed the minority view to ‘win’ the result, lets hope we get there in the end…

Xenesis.6389:

Problem with separate beta testing is not many are going to actively download a separate client to test it, players are lazy, that’s why they even had to do focus testing for a couple days. Barely anyone showed up for the second beta test of the map, which in part was Anet’s fault in not notifying players properly, but players are not interested in testing in a separate area.

Fact of the matter is you will find more bugs in a shorter period of time in the live environment than you would with months of beta testing. That’s why they did a lot of live testing for the expansion, they don’t exactly have WoW’s numbers to do a separate beta test for everything.

And as mentioned above, Alpines had it’s problems that have been fixed over time (and still does but not really game breaking). Orbs were a major hacking problem that had to be taken out, eventually the lake was turned into the ruins to bring back the bloodlust buff from orbs. Latest problem was the siege in citadel which they have addressed.

A lot of dbl problems can be fixed if players go in and play, and report anything that seems broken, or write up anything that could be made better, instead of I DON’T LIKE IT SO JUST DELETE IT AND START OVER!.

For something like north towers not being useful, we’re going to have to rely on Anet to come up with something for them, there’s been like a dozen ideas thrown around, hopefully one seems reasonable.

Very well said, and I completely agree.

Johje Holan.4607:

lil devils x.6071:

Xenesis.6389:

So uh for the people saying they wanted a new map but don’t want dbl.

What happens if we vote for a new map, they make it, and you don’t like it, gonna ask them to delete that too?

ANY map made for WvW should not be put into the live game until it was properly finished in Beta and tested and corrected until it was made ready for the live game. If they allowed players to provide feedback and used that feedback to correct the issues with the map before they make it live, they would not have had this problem in the first place. The goal was to not have this one or any other go live until the players voted that it was ready. That never happened, and now they can’t do much of what needs to be done due to it being in the live game and not beta.

If they’re going to ask us they need to do it in Alpha. Once it gets to Beta its too late to make significant changes.

Put out a draft of the map then we can see the popup walls, the stealth sand, the center mechanism, the maze like structure, the ugly giant keeps and say, “No, no, no, no and no.” Before any programming starts. Saves them a lot of work and everyone a lot of grief.

I wish. That would have saved everyone so much grief and so many people would still be here right now if they had… with the guild upgrade system as well.. that was a huge mess as well. I agree completely. Was only begging them to send it back to beta because they said they could not fix what needed to be fixed at all due to it being in live game. If they dont fix the topography and the keeps, there are going to be many more leave as they get fed up with it the more they try. They have to realize they can’t just leave stuff broke and expect it to work at some point I hope. " Somewhat playable" should not have been the end goal here.

Xenesis.6389:

lil devils x.6071:

ANY map made for WvW should not be put into the live game until it was properly finished in Beta and tested and corrected until it was made ready for the live game. If they allowed players to provide feedback and used that feedback to correct the issues with the map before they make it live, they would not have had this problem in the first place. The goal was to not have this one or any other go live until the players voted that it was ready. That never happened, and now they can’t do much of what needs to be done due to it being in the live game and not beta.

Problem with separate beta testing is not many are going to actively download a separate client to test it, players are lazy, that’s why they even had to do focus testing for a couple days. Barely anyone showed up for the second beta test of the map, which in part was Anet’s fault in not notifying players properly, but players are not interested in testing in a separate area.

Fact of the matter is you will find more bugs in a shorter period of time in the live environment than you would with months of beta testing. That’s why they did a lot of live testing for the expansion, they don’t exactly have WoW’s numbers to do a separate beta test for everything.

And as mentioned above, Alpines had it’s problems that have been fixed over time (and still does but not really game breaking). Orbs were a major hacking problem that had to be taken out, eventually the lake was turned into the ruins to bring back the bloodlust buff from orbs. Latest problem was the siege in citadel which they have addressed.

A lot of dbl problems can be fixed if players go in and play, and report anything that seems broken, or write up anything that could be made better, instead of I DON’T LIKE IT SO JUST DELETE IT AND START OVER!.

For something like north towers not being useful, we’re going to have to rely on Anet to come up with something for them, there’s been like a dozen ideas thrown around, hopefully one seems reasonable.

The reason why many did not show up for Beta 2 was they were saying it was awful and they would not play on it at all at the time. It was actually abandoned during beta. That should have been a red flag right there. You don’t go ahead and send it live if that happens, and they did.

They said they cannot fix the topography problems at all in the live game so it will just stay broke.

Johje Holan.4607:

lil devils x.6071:

Xenesis.6389:

So uh for the people saying they wanted a new map but don’t want dbl.

What happens if we vote for a new map, they make it, and you don’t like it, gonna ask them to delete that too?

ANY map made for WvW should not be put into the live game until it was properly finished in Beta and tested and corrected until it was made ready for the live game. If they allowed players to provide feedback and used that feedback to correct the issues with the map before they make it live, they would not have had this problem in the first place. The goal was to not have this one or any other go live until the players voted that it was ready. That never happened, and now they can’t do much of what needs to be done due to it being in the live game and not beta.

If they’re going to ask us they need to do it in Alpha. Once it gets to Beta its too late to make significant changes.

If they ran a proper beta this would not be the case. The beta for the DBL was a PR exercise and they ignored all feedback which ended disastrously.

lil devils x.6071:

ANY map made for WvW should not be put into the live game until it was properly finished in Beta and tested and corrected until it was made ready for the live game.

I can agree with this statement, however, we have seen time and time again that in order to get realistic inclusive testing done the only way to do it is to put the map on live and force everyone to play it and give feedback.

The way DBL’s were tested either happened two late in production or did not have realistic participation or both. Either way as far as I can see they have no means to properly test WvW maps without putting them on live from time to time. See DBL’s as well as several old incidents related to ABL’s as well.

AllNightPlayer.1286:

Why does this poll have such a long uptime, while others, which also needed a supermajority (DBL and ABL mixed) didn’t? Seems a bit unfair especially since the poll about the mixed BL was a close one.

The previous poll probably ended early once they decided to re-run it after this poll. Either way, the polls rarely seem to have upsets in the sense that once certain volume of votes has been reached the results mostly stabilize… for a close poll it would have had to be within few tenths of a percentage for an upset to be realistic imo.

lil devils x.6071:

The reason why many did not show up for Beta 2 was they were saying it was awful and they would not play on it at all at the time. It was actually abandoned during beta. That should have been a red flag right there. You don’t go ahead and send it live if that happens, and they did.

They said they cannot fix the topography problems at all in the live game so it will just stay broke.

What they did was sent emails out to newly invited players, but failed to notify the players from the first beta that they were still active in it, so many figured they weren’t invited.

I received an email about the first test, but never received one for the second test, I had to wait until it went live to see if I was able to login, and then I let the rest of my guild know, in which most of them decided it was just too late and didn’t want to bother.

They even had to post on the next day to remind players it was open for testing, cause I guess not enough showed up, well gee if you don’t let people know they’re still in they won’t bother and stay with regular wvw. So yeah I’d imagine it was awful if not enough even showed up to fill one borderland.

I really hate DBL but I voted to keep it for the sole reason that the wording strongly implied that no further BLs would be created if DBL were ditched. I suspect a large segment of the keep-DBL vote feels the same way.

What I actually want is 3 distinct BLs, whether it’s ABL + DBL + EOTM, or ABL + DBL + new map, I don’t mind, I just think it’s incredibly weak that 3 years into the game there isn’t already 3 unique BLs.

Xenesis.6389:

lil devils x.6071:

The reason why many did not show up for Beta 2 was they were saying it was awful and they would not play on it at all at the time. It was actually abandoned during beta. That should have been a red flag right there. You don’t go ahead and send it live if that happens, and they did.

They said they cannot fix the topography problems at all in the live game so it will just stay broke.

What they did was sent emails out to newly invited players, but failed to notify the players from the first beta that they were still active in it, so many figured they weren’t invited.

I received an email about the first test, but never received one for the second test, I had to wait until it went live to see if I was able to login, and then I let the rest of my guild know, in which most of them decided it was just too late and didn’t want to bother.

They even had to post on the next day to remind players it was open for testing, cause I guess not enough showed up, well gee if you don’t let people know they’re still in they won’t bother and stay with regular wvw. So yeah I’d imagine it was awful if not enough even showed up to fill one borderland.

Hmm.. I received notice for both. Just everyone I know that I talked about Beta with all said it was so awful they didn’t want to see anymore and were quite vocal about it being bad…

I know for a fact some messaged devs about it…

lil devils x.6071:

Hmm.. I received notice for both. Just everyone I know that I talked about Beta with all said it was so awful they didn’t want to see anymore and were quite vocal about it being bad…

I know for a fact some messaged devs about it…

the plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’

Sarrs.4831:

lil devils x.6071:

Hmm.. I received notice for both. Just everyone I know that I talked about Beta with all said it was so awful they didn’t want to see anymore and were quite vocal about it being bad…

I know for a fact some messaged devs about it…

the plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’

Anecdote = witness testimony. Submissible in a court of law so I would think appropriate for a gaming forum.

Graphs that were posted by members of this forum on this forum months ago showing population of DBL and population of ABL = data.

Nope no one in my guild received the second message even when they were in the first one. Ran the first night with a commander from FA we had like 10-15 on us for like 2 hours, complaints of lag and rubberbanding.

scerevisiae.1972:

I really hate DBL but I voted to keep it for the sole reason that the wording strongly implied that no further BLs would be created if DBL were ditched. I suspect a large segment of the keep-DBL vote feels the same way.

This I find to be incredibly sad end to this.

DeWolfe.2174:

scerevisiae.1972:

I really hate DBL but I voted to keep it for the sole reason that the wording strongly implied that no further BLs would be created if DBL were ditched. I suspect a large segment of the keep-DBL vote feels the same way.

This I find to be incredibly sad end to this.

That definitely influenced my vote. Dbl needs a lot of work to rise above being a grounded eotm.
1. Towers are too isolated and too big. These towers do not need major themes tied to them. They should be broken up into 2-4 standardized desert towers each that can interact with each other and the keeps and don’t need 3 scouts each.
2. Shrines are annoying. Cc turrets, selective walls, cripple machines, and sandstorm pit are not fun to play against. Immortal jumping < gliding (make snipers that enforce no fly zones).
3. The oasis is a waste of space. Stonemist is a good central objective. The ruins are bad. A lake is bad. Aetherblades are bad! Some brainstorming needs to he done for central objectives in the bls.
4. I’m sure I missed things that have been said before, but those are my 3 major points.

lil devils x.6071:

Anecdote = witness testimony. Submissible in a court of law so I would think appropriate for a gaming forum.

Doesn’t change that it isn’t data. If it were a court of law this’d be like you presenting an eyewitness when an autopsy was being asked for. Don’t want anecdotes. Want data. Like the data we have in the poll!

lil devils x.6071:

Graphs that were posted by members of this forum on this forum months ago showing population of DBL and population of ABL = data.

Let me guess: Your graphs compare a long stretch of time of DBL, either from HoT release to the last week of DBL, or several months prior to the last week of DBL, and only a week or two of ABL. Manipulating statistics to prove what you want them to prove is easy. There’s a reason “lies, kitten lies and statistics” exists as a phrase.

At the end of the day I’m not sure why I’m responding. The poll’s already produced a clear answer; most people either want DBL, or they care enough about new map development that they can live with it. See you in the next thread.

Cecilia.5179:

3. The oasis is a waste of space. Stonemist is a good central objective. The ruins are bad. A lake is bad. Aetherblades are bad! Some brainstorming needs to he done for central objectives in the bls.

Honestly, I thought the superlaser was fine for a central objective. Hopefully we can see it fixed by the time they add DBL back.

Sarrs.4831:

lil devils x.6071:

Anecdote = witness testimony. Submissible in a court of law so I would think appropriate for a gaming forum.

Doesn’t change that it isn’t data. If it were a court of law this’d be like you presenting an eyewitness when an autopsy was being asked for. Don’t want anecdotes. Want data. Like the data we have in the poll!

lil devils x.6071:

Graphs that were posted by members of this forum on this forum months ago showing population of DBL and population of ABL = data.

Let me guess: Your graphs compare a long stretch of time of DBL, either from HoT release to the last week of DBL, or several months prior to the last week of DBL, and only a week or two of ABL. Manipulating statistics to prove what you want them to prove is easy. There’s a reason “lies, kitten lies and statistics” exists as a phrase.

At the end of the day I’m not sure why I’m responding. The poll’s already produced a clear answer; most people either want DBL, or they care enough about new map development that they can live with it. See you in the next thread.

Cecilia.5179:

3. The oasis is a waste of space. Stonemist is a good central objective. The ruins are bad. A lake is bad. Aetherblades are bad! Some brainstorming needs to he done for central objectives in the bls.

Honestly, I thought the superlaser was fine for a central objective. Hopefully we can see it fixed by the time they add DBL back.

The guy has been posting graphs on here periodically or a looong time… and not just about population. They are not my graphs , but way to go all conspiracy theory there guy. “Anecdote” about receiving a notice? Yea.. okay I am sure you have kept all your notices you have received as " evidence" of this conspiracy against the DBL. LMAO

I also voted on keeping DBL. Not because I like it the way it is, but because I think that with the way the devs are communitcating right now there can be a lot of feedback built in by the community, eventuall making it a good map.

And that’s far better than simply throwing months of hard work and dedication to the trash bin, even if we’ll have to endure playing on this worse map for a few months. You can’t see everything black and white. It is a risk to take, I know, but in the long term it could pay out in terms of WvW diversity (especially when looking at a potential 3rd border in a far future)

Jim Hunter.6821:

That kittening horrible map is going to survive for the sole reason that so many people have been fear mongering that voting for it’s removal will mean anet won’t develop new maps.
Just implement 1 dbl, 2abl’s and be done with it. Don’t set some ridiculous 75% threshold. You know if you bring back dbl for 3 months you will fully kill WvW, don’t be kittening stupid for once.

Reverence.6915:

I don’t understand you people. Desert Borderlands danm near killed WvW and so many of you are voting to keep it in. Seems like people have really short term memories or something.

Merlinus.1765:

Reverence.6915:

I don’t understand you people. Desert Borderlands danm near killed WvW and so many of you are voting to keep it in. Seems like people have really short term memories or something.

You are absolutely correct. Alpine borderlands and map queue fixes are the two imminent and major fixes for WvW at the moment. It’s appalling how many people are voting to keep desert borderlands, especially since they nearly killed WvW altogether. What’s more disconcerting is that non-WvW players are looking at this poll without any regard to the population that actually enjoys this gameplay, and are none-the-wiser as to how it nearly wrecked the mechanic.

VOTE ALPINE TODAY! ALPINE ALL THE WAY!

Vova.2640:

Unreal.
DBL basically killed wvw… people finally started coming back… and now this…
I simply cannot understand why people are still voting in for them… they are beyond AWFUL.

Just wait until they rotate the DBLs back and see wvw population drop, then the same people that voted for DBL will start asking what happened and blaming anet.

GG.
You tried Anet, thank you.
But now I see this game mode deserves to die.

Noblehawk.8036:

I bet that most people who actually already left the game (like me) won’t come here to vote on this poll like I did… If I had not stumbled to this forum mostly accidentally to check whats going on couple weeks ago, I wouldn’t even know there was going to be a vote.

However as I’ve mentioned before – desert map and certain other hot updates like automatic upgrades and guild buff nerfs were the reason I bailed from the game. Seeing the current result makes me sad panda, but then again – there are other games to play. Wish u people all the best. Obviously Anet can’t please everyone.

Bury Your Deadgreen.2368:

DBL it is I guess! Finally have the motivation to go play another game

Loosmaster.8263:

Blobs means players!!! Have fun with your Deserted BL.

DeWolfe.2174:

Silverkey.2078:

I am not a hardcore WvW player, so my opinion may not be representative

I’m glad you pointed this out. That’s the issue with this is that anyone can vote. So a player that doesn’t even WvW at all or maybe WvW’s a couple hours a week get’s to force those of us that WvW 30+ hours a week to play the DBL. In small doses maybe that map is ok but, after many hours it sucks the life out of you. Now winning is going to be about who can endure that map the longest.

For having variety, functionally dissimilar maps are simply going to wreck match balancing. Again, if you don’t care about such things as winning each week, I can see why a player wouldn’t care about having balance.

Might as well remove the score….

Just a few of the posts on Pg1.
So even from the beginning of the poll, we had players telling us:

1) They only voted for the DBL due to Anet saying they will not get new maps if they do not. When they were only waiting on Alpine for new maps.

2) That players left the game over the DBL, came back for Alpine and will leave again when it returns.

3) They voted in polls where they felt they were not representative of the population.

4) That many noticed from different servers and tiers that the game mode almost died and credited the DBL for that.

5) That players who have hardly ever played WvW have as much say as players who play it 6+ hours a day.

So what happens if the DBL comes back and players stop playing again? They reduce servers further? ( lets be real here ..linking is due to population reduction because the game mode has been hemorrhaging players for quite some time and will continue to do so with proposed changes)

What is the actual game plan here if many players leave the game again due to this?

lil devils x.6071:

What is the actual game plan here if many players leave the game again due to this?

Well, that’s obvious. More PvP tournaments, of course.

“IF” ABL brought people back, they have already left or others have left. Tell me again how the ABL was the savior and not a two week trip down nostalgia lane..

The real issue with people leaving isn’t the BL and never was the BL…. Too many other issues involved to blame or credit the population on the BL.

Liston.9708:

“IF” ABL brought people back, they have already left or others have left. Tell me again how the ABL was the savior and not a two week trip down nostalgia lane..

The real issue with people leaving isn’t the BL and never was the BL…. Too many other issues involved to blame or credit the population on the BL.

The ABL was never the " savior" it was supposed to be the " first step" just a place to wait while they made a new map because players considered the DBL unplayable at all. No one ever said much more work wasn’t needing to be done. They just said they need to be able to play WvW while they waited for it to happen. The problem is If Anet doesn’t pull through with good new action packed PvP focused content for WvW that players consider good/ worth playing, they will lose population permanently and the game will continue to decline at a higher pace.

If players are telling you that they left due to the DBL and they came back due to the ABL of course the logical thing to do is to tell them " nu uh it must have been for some other reason?" because you must know what their reasons were more than they do…

Of course some players left for different reasons. I am talking about the ones who left due to the DBL and those that left because they wanted to play with those players. You do not just lose the players who hate the DBL when you run them off, their friends that want to play with them leave too, then their friends.. until eventually you have all those guys playing together on another game instead.

lil devils x.6071:

The ABL was never the " savior" it was supposed to be the " first step" just a place to wait while they made a new map because players considered the DBL unplayable at all.

how long exactly do you think it takes to build a wvw map

Sarrs.4831:

lil devils x.6071:

The ABL was never the " savior" it was supposed to be the " first step" just a place to wait while they made a new map because players considered the DBL unplayable at all.

how long exactly do you think it takes to build a wvw map

I was told they had one they have been working on, so there was one started.. 6 month wait was approximately what players were expecting.

Don’t hold the breathe on this one … we’ve had a total of 2 new maps introduced into this game mode since launch. EoTM which ended up just being a side product for playing while there used to be queues, and DBL. Two. That’s it. But in comparison PvE only had 7, 4 of those being in an xpac.

Whether its due to limited resources or complete neglect of the game mode for periods of time… I would estimate new maps come every 1.5 years given the track record.