Guild Wars 2

I am generally for any item on a trial basis… if he devs believe it is worth the trouble. My basis for this assessment is basically the fact that the developers are designing games for a living and they know what this actually involves and what it doesn’t.

However, there is a certain problem I think that a dev should address… if this comes in as a trial, does it overlap with the repair hammer trial. Just saying, too many unknown variables are only going to reinforce the idea that these changes don’t work. The playerbase already has issues adapting so introducing too many unknown variables should be avoided or they will cannibalize each other. That having been said, the trials should probably overlap for part of the time if possible, since in the end they could theory have to exist side by side.

Personally, I don’t subscribe to this siege is bad for WvW mindset going around, when siege is what makes the game mode what it is (ie. something more than a huge capture point map), having said that everything in moderation is good mantra to follow.

Edit: although, I believe I speak for everyone in that some sort of “status report” on the scoring changes would be good.. because no matter how much the poll says that is still the primary focus, right now there is no evidence of that and it creates the illusion that you are focusing on “the unimportant stuff” when in fact you might not be.

More siege….great just what wvw needs more siege wars. Good to see where your priorities are….

Siege is already completely broken in wvw and you want to add more? Just seriously wow…

Siege is supposed to be a tool, it’s not supposed to be there to replace the player…why cant you understand this, stop encouraging this garbage.

Can I ask what is the thought process behind adding these improvements?

Why is the team choosing to focus on implementing/improving siege instead of other aspects of the maps / balance / core issues to the game mode? Are they handled by other teams?

Never mind the larger population/scoring balance issues (which are being worked on), why not focus on some of the QoL stuff that people have been asking for (cross chat, nameplate shortener, new commander tag options) if there is extra development time / resources?

If these are improvements that have been in development (or ready for testing) for some time, why implement now of all times? Isn’t there a beta client / PTR for this exact testing purpose?

It feels like the team is looking at things that the community agrees doesn’t need fixing and says “Yeah, lets mess with that”

Cannons are like the final form of Ballistas. This can be useful hitting things Ballistas can’t. However, fighting under cannon fire never been a nice thing and open field cannons will be even more cancerous than open field arrow carts and ballistas are.

DoctorWunderbar.5037:

Can I ask what is the thought process behind adding these improvements?

Why is the team choosing to focus on implementing/improving siege instead of other aspects of the maps / balance / core issues to the game mode? Are they handled by other teams?

What they have said for now is, that these are low effort changes that they want to try out now that they have the green light to do so in a realistic environment (that is the only realistic WvW setting ie. the live game). As it turns out the repair hammers were basically almost done content for the most part that got shelved because they didn’t have real means to test it at the time, now they do.

There is also the fact that the community basically voted to prioritize the most demanding stuff on the scoring changes list. They will take a while, so in the mean time they don’t have much to show for those… better this than dead air, no?

DoctorWunderbar.5037:

Can I ask what is the thought process behind adding these improvements?

Why is the team choosing to focus on implementing/improving siege instead of other aspects of the maps / balance / core issues to the game mode? Are they handled by other teams?

Never mind the larger population/scoring balance issues (which are being worked on), why not focus on some of the QoL stuff that people have been asking for (cross chat, nameplate shortener, new commander tag options) if there is extra development time / resources?

If these are improvements that have been in development (or ready for testing) for some time, why implement now of all times? Isn’t there a beta client / PTR for this exact testing purpose?

It feels like the team is looking at things that the community agrees doesn’t need fixing and says “Yeah, lets mess with that”

Exactly this. Siege shouldn’t even be at the forefront right now.

If these are limited to structures a try would be OK. If they can be put down like other seige “NADA”!!!

I’m all for trying out new stuff, in fact I wish we had the chance to try all major changes before they go live. Why dosen’t anet have a public test server? I remember everquest had one and for some players that was their home server.

As for canons, I was hoping it was only for keep walls and such. Being able to deploy them everywhere seems to OP to me (maybe if they dumbed them down a bit?) In any case worth a try I guess.

Just glad there is some form of change going on. A stagnant wvw would be a terrible idea.

Friend of mine has one of these.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cannon_

Used to troll people in WvW with it.

Was this an item that came out of brainstorm sessions from the Adopt-a-Dev program by chance? You guys might as well try to bring back other PvE consumables to WvW like Gear, Golem in a Box, and Peg Leg.

Chaba.5410:

Friend of mine has one of these.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cannon_

Used to troll people in WvW with it.

Now he can have an actual cannon instead of a toy one.

how about something other than more seige? voted no….

Jeknar.6184:

Chaba.5410:

Friend of mine has one of these.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cannon_

Used to troll people in WvW with it.

Now he can have an actual cannon instead of a toy one.

Indeed, if this crap wins out, blobs will now be able to build 6-7 catas/rams next to each other because of a broken siege cap, and build a bunch of cannons along with shield generators in the back to obliterate any defenders GG anet!

We have more than enough siege, voted no.

Sure thing, bob! Lets make trolling the gvg’ers even easier!

~ Kovu

Dear ANET… I am very happy that you are making these polls… but as a hardcore WvW’r since almost launch, this is the worst idea. So many people who even play WvW on a less hardcore standpoint hate “Siege Wars” as it is called. To add in cannon blueprints will absolutely destroy the capability of groups of people to reliably pierce through objectives, making the game mode unplayable for anyone except the people who love to sit on siege. I do not fault anyone who does this, even though I myself do not do it and loathe it, people have their own ways of having fun… But cannons are good where they are, as upgrades to a keep/tower, with only 2 of them. Especially if there becomes a basic and superior version, and it keeps all the cannon skills from what it is now, it will become 100% impossible to take anything, or to have fun in this game mode if you do not wish to roam.
As a final note, I ask that you try to find a way to keep these polls to the WvW’rs, and not the PvE players. Results are skewed by this and it can end up harming the game mode in the future. Maybe make the poll notification take much longer (aka more playtime in WvW), or some other way that sends this/opens this to only WvW players who spend the majority of their time there. Please please please, to let cannons become deployable blueprints will harm the game mode, and will drive many veterans who loathe “Siege Wars” off the game.
Regards – WvW player since 2014

Will these portable cannons have the same skills as the stationary ones? Will they have the same cool down after destruction?

Cannons that I can place on positions, where the operator does not die in seconds, would be great. There many locations in keeps and towers for them.

Why do these siege/defense friendly additions keep getting considered?

Until scoring and points are overhauled, NOTHING MATTERS in terms of defending ability

Not even to mention that more siege will just turn more people off from playing; nobody wants to stand in even more red circles. This game mode has needed more incentive for people fight, not more incentive to sit inside towers on siege holy crap

Deployable cannons would have to have quite reduced health compared to stationary ones.

With the same health, that’s a definite “no”.

OK so its official anet do not actually know how to develop for WvW and have lost the knowledge of what makes a good RvR game in general.

Crise.9401:

There is also the fact that the community basically voted to prioritize the most demanding stuff on the scoring changes list. They will take a while, so in the mean time they don’t have much to show for those… better this than dead air, no?

Actually no, dead air would be better.

I’m tired of siege buffs. I want to fight people not siege.

I am sorry, but can you imagine using this instead of arrow carts to defend a keep. Also goodbye rams. Yea it could be used offensivly, but introducing more powerful siege into the game is just not the answer.

Nope.
Already got balista for straight line siege, ac for overhead siege, cata for mid range heavy siege, got treb for long range heavy siege. Don’t need anymore siege types for open field. Structures have their own cannons and mortars.

You guys should probably look into traps though.

nope…. no more siege needed in WvW, thanks.

need to work on QoL and siege balance if anything.

Bandini.6185:

We have more than enough siege, voted no.

we don’t have enough siege until the blueprints page is close to having a scrollbar

Vote ‘yes’. A ‘no’ vote is a vote for Scarlet Briar

If you have a cannon I am not sure why you would ever use a ballista. I don’t think that they would be a healthy addition to the game with this in mind.

Sarrs.4831:

If you have a cannon I am not sure why you would ever use a ballista. I don’t think that they would be a healthy addition to the game with this in mind.

You don’t build Trebs for somenthing you can hit with catas. Why would you build a cannon for somenthing that you can hit with a ballista?

Jeknar.6184:

You don’t build Trebs for somenthing you can hit with catas. Why would you build a cannon for somenthing that you can hit with a ballista?

Cannons and ballistas have the same, or similar, range. I don’t see them having distinct enough roles for the cannon to be worth adding, and the distinctions which do exist (cannon has a blast radius) make the cannon blatantly better at ballista’s job than ballista.

If you can explain how they’re actually different that’d be great. Truisms don’t help.

Another siege related WvW addition!? Hmmm… This doesn’t sound good at all. :/

Anet,

You know, just because my Granddad has some old leftover cans of Puke-Green LEAD paint in his garage from 1945, it doesn’t mean I should snatch them up and paint my kitchen with them in some kind of misguided effort to revive its look. I understand Cannon Blueprints may be a “Low effort change” because you got some old/mostly completed code laying around, but, man… MORE siege? Really?!?

(It’s not April 1st, again, is it?)

Deployable cannons would break wvw. Their effect on offense will be much more significant than an offensive ballista.

Basic balli with mastery:
Ballista: 45k hp
balli skill 1 dmg to siege: 16285
balli skill 3 dmg to siege: 32571

note: single target and 5+ players can stand in front of the siege to block the balli from hitting it

Cannon with mastery:
cannon hp: 74k
cannon skill 1 dmg to siege: 43642
cannon blast radius = 400

note: cannon armor rating is a lot higher than that of deployable siege. Basic balli with mastery = 8550 dps to deployable siege and 2840 dps to cannons (and oil).

Imagine going up top of the mendons hill, quentin lake hill, ogrewatch hill, klovan hill, NWT alpine BL hill, NWT desert bl hill, and building a cannon up top to cannon down all of the siege inside. Not only will it one-hit an AC, it has a 400 radius and can take out multiple AC’s with one shot.

Imagine an open field cannon in the middle of a wvw fight. This is just like an open field AC but the farther range makes it even more annoying.

Cannons are not designed to be able to be placed anywhere. You can also still cannon your own gate for defense which is only 4.12 shots to take out a flame ram. This would be even easier with a defender being able to place a cannon anywhere. They can even just put it on the ground behind the gate to do this where no one can reach it. This is even worse than gate trebs because (basic) gate trebs take 7.68 shots to kill a flame ram which is at least a tad more though still unbalanced.

tldr this will break attacking, defending, and fights

Radian.2478:

Imagine going up top of the mendons hill, quentin lake hill, ogrewatch hill, klovan hill, NWT alpine BL hill, NWT desert bl hill, and building a cannon up top to cannon down all of the siege inside. Not only will it one-hit an AC, it has a 400 radius and can take out multiple AC’s with one shot.

Honestly when you said this it made me want the canons because I am tired of AC spam. But I still voted no because I don’t think canons that can be deployed anywhere you want would be good for the game

I wish anet would run more than 1 poll at a time. This is an obvious “no” but it’d still be worth polling if it didn’t take up the “poll of the week”.

No, no and no. Enough with these stupid siege implementations….
What is anet even trying to achieve here…this is complete nonsense.

DEAR GOD!!! Not this stuff again. Please fix currents bugs and lag issues before adding more stuff to the game that may bug or cause issues or be exploited =( There is adding things to help and then there is adding things that go to far. Repair hammers and cannons =( I feel like this is just going to turn into siege wars/blob fests further. It feels like the opposite of help in wvw.

aandiarie.7195:

DEAR GOD!!! Not this stuff again. Please fix currents bugs and lag issues before adding more stuff to the game that may bug or cause issues or be exploited =( There is adding things to help and then there is adding things that go to far. Repair hammers and cannons =( I feel like this is just going to turn into siege wars/blob fests further. It feels like the opposite of help in wvw.

Couldn’t agree more with ^ this poster.

I would like to play WvW on my necro without getting stuck in the ground with reaper shroud 2 just trying to catch up with the zerg or without experiencing or hear someone else experiencing the loading screen bug or vanishing toon bug. As for lag, where to start? So much to say about that!

God no.

We need less seige humping if anything seige like the AC need to be nerfed and not more cannons. Taking keeps is already annoying af when you have emergency waypoints, stupid gimmicks and now add in more OP seige?

What is meant to be groups clashing and fighting it out, we have servers running away even when they clearly outnumber the opponent unless they have at least a few Acs as back up to they can roll the opponents even harder.

morrolan.9608:

Actually no, dead air would be better.

We will just have to agree to disagree on that… four years in and only now they realize the only way to get anything through in WvW is to throw it on live and see what happens. The PvP community in GW2 is so averse to changes that it is this only way for any progress to happen.

Either way I would rather see developers actively pushing for any change, good or bad, than not see any activity at all… the fact is we don\t know what is good or bad before we have played with the stuff.

This topic is a prime example of that, people assume cannons on the field would be identical to cannons on the walls (which is reasonable assumption, given nothing else has been said), however, cannons on walls have been designed to be static siege, ergo their numbers reflect that… a cannon on the field would likely be different, and even if it isn’t right now in their design/implementation it has the possibility to be.

Just to point out, we are not game designers… before you say that they have lost it you should for a moment consider that these people have been at it for a while and they do this for a living… they have no incentive to poll the community on changes that they believe will be bad for the game type. Now, if what they believe WvW is diverges from what the community believes it is or what it should be is a different matter entirely.

Edit: besides we knew this poll was coming from Tyler’s post way back, so lets not act like this poll existing is somehow news for people who have actually kept up with the forums.

No, no, no! What are you thinking of? None of commanders wants to fight under cannon fire. Bring cannons into open field and noone will fight.

To all the siege whiners: If you don’t want siege, go play pvp, nabs. This is WvW. Git Gud.

Wow, April came early this year.

Very unhealthy for fight playstyles in WvW.

Might aswell implement trojan horses… And to the person saying play pvp, WvW is to fight other fighting “people” from other servers with their abilities. Not fighting siege…Or do you need siege to kill players, “git gud” you said ?

And in all fairness siege is really not so great, the placements is easy to handle for Eles to meteor shower it or other classes that can bring them down in no time aswell. I think ballistas, trebs should only be used to destroy siege not players. I think then you can make it more interesting. But still I voted for no cannons as most of the real good WvW wants to fight people without no siege..

Fix the nightcapping as we begged for which is the biggest problem for most servers. If one server is gaining most players becuase that server is number one for weeks becuase they seem so good but the only way how they beat all the servers becuase they are blobbing in the night and other servers are not, then that shows “there” is the bigger problem and not this crazy cannon/siege stuff..

Crise.9401:

There is also the fact that the community basically voted to prioritize the most demanding stuff on the scoring changes list. They will take a while, so in the mean time they don’t have much to show for those… better this than dead air, no?

I do not want to suffer from bad features just because they are easy to make.

Radian.2478:

Cannon with mastery:
cannon hp: 74k
cannon skill 1 dmg to siege: 43642
cannon blast radius = 400

That’s a normal cannon. Can you crunch the numbers for Superior Cannons, too? I bet they would be worth the 60 supplies to build.

This is absolutely baffling on how poor of an idea to even put forward. Sure WvW may be a sup’ed up hot join at its core but kitten its comprised of PvP-centric players.

WvW players have complained about siege and pve in wvw dating all the way back to when ACs could rain death through the floors in smc into lords. You put so much pve elements, made the maps so turtle-up-and-defend biased, that you now have a DBL map that you had to ‘carefully word’ a couple of poles to get it back in play. You guys don’t play wvw. Okay. You don’t consider wvw when it comes to skill balance. Sure. You’ve even had employees log in to troll gvgs. Weird, but okay. But really, wtf is the deal here? Siege is awful to play against, and because you neither play or balance around siege usage (and placement) already the game play is slow as defenders can bunker in incredibly hard with the tools already available.

TLDR:
- Anet has found the most hated and complained about element of wvw and will be introducing it as a ‘beta’

Why do I get the feeling that these things can come in as beta with a majority only vote, but will likely take the 75% majority to remove it again.

Too many siege humpers here. How can anyone even think of implementing this crap? Talk about wanting to siege turtle!

Next week we see the same comments about portable mortars.

I would suggest to improve the performance and survivability of cannons and mortars in towers and keeps before we add new kinds of these weapons.

I could see keeps with 12 mortars and 25 cannons inside. On the other side I do not understand why siege weapons from blueprints have so much advantages over the stationary siege weapons . This is also a problem that has to be addressed.

If you want it or not, Siege is a defining part of WvW. Without Siege, WvW would turn into a mindless, generic mass zerg PvP #1 spamfest which you can find in literally every asia grinder out there.
tl&dr: If you prefer that stuff, kindly move to another game.

What are the plus-sides of Siege?

Siege adds a strategic layer to large scale PvP. Since Siege is usually strong enough to kill players they are forced to adapt instead of mindlessly charging from A to B. This gives you the option to hold and cut off small passages, forcing the enemies to take the long way around. Meanwhile it enables that flashy play, where a Mesmer dives through and portals your Zerg behind the enemies. This would not be the case without Siege.

Siege evens out the difference between small groups and big zergs. Without Siege, defending a structure would be impossible if you didn’t have at least half the players the enemy zerg has – It would essentially invalidate the capture and hold mechanic of WvW since you literally can’t hold something longer than the usual 5 minutes until the invulnability of the NPC runs out… Without Siege, WvW would be Zerg up or gtfo – A hugh hit in the face also for all the havoc groups, roamers and scouts (You guys are the MVPs!).

Siege gives every class a reason to be in WvW. Without Siege there would be no warrior in WvW i.e.. Why? Lack of ranged combat, invulnerability is short timed, no constant AoE threat and so on. Their saving grace might be their revive banner but hey, downed players rarely live to see it go off in zerg fights… Without Siege, WvW would be AoE classes and ranged classes or combinations of them (Hello hammer Rev, we already love you guys mindlessly spamming #2 already, why not become the best class ever in a siegeless WvW?).

What are the down-sides of Siege?

It draws out fights. Since you have to either destroy the defensive Siege first or find a way around it, steamrolling over the enemy takes a while. This is, arguably, not a bad thing imo. – You don’t need a full zerg to siege enemy Siege. If you waste time standing around, the blame’s on you alone. Get some havoc groups. Group up again after clearing the Siege. Enjoy the Towers and Camps you flipped in between.

They hit hard and are a constant threat. This is great and actually not a downside. You invest into building Siege. If those things would do nothing you’d feel cheated. It also amplifies the power of a single player – That is great, as said above, as it balances the field between smaller groups and large zergs. Also, if something is clearly out of line it should be easy to simply adjust it numberwise.

Now what about deployable cannons?

They would fit nicely alongside Catapults and in between Ballistae and Arrow Carts. How so? Obviously, everything needs to be balanced accordingly (And I’m pretty sure it will) but as I see it, Cannons fulfill a similar role as Catapults (Ranged AoE threat for groups and Siege clearing) while being distinct enough (projectile arc, AoE range, damage, rate of fire, conditions vs. knockback). They are unique enough to be worth a shot in testing.
Now, why did I say in between Ballistae and Arrow Carts – Cannons should be shorter rangewise than Ballistae and longer than Arrow Carts. Meanwhile they have AoE over the single target (well, line AoE if traited) damage of Ballistae and a smaller AoE than Arrow Carts. Arrow Carts also focus on anti-player mechanics while cannons are slightly more anti-siege themed. All in all, cannons would offer something new in the known Rock-Paper-Scissors game.

But we have cannons already! Yes. And they are exclusivly defensive as they are stationary. If you build Siege in the range of a cannon without clearing them first, blame’s on you. Meanwhile, while these cannons are stationary they are of course balanced accordingly. Don’t loose your sh** guys, there is a multitude of levers which can be used for balancing/fine tuning (range, damage, AoE radii, rate of fire, durability etc.).

I could continue but that post is way too long already again – What I wanted to say: WvW is as unique and fun because it has Siege. Sure, balance might be off at some points but if you run into 5 Arrow Cart AoEs you deserve to die from the bleeding. That has nothing to do with Siege being op. Removing Siege would be like shooting yourself into the foot. Deployable cannons are worth a shot for Testing – Tough, they need to be balanced accordingly.

Cheers

Belenwyn.8674:

Next week we see the same comments about portable mortars.

Portable mortars might actually be interesting just because Concussive Barrage could be super funny if you use it on a wall.

DoctorWunderbar.5037:

Can I ask what is the thought process behind adding these improvements?

I guess those are already made long ago but not implemented.

Open field cannon fights – When cannons getting low repair it with your hammer!

What the hell are you guys thinking at your office, ever play your own game like many of us do?

Appearantly not.