[LGN] Legion For We Are Many – a Blackgate guild
WvW Scoreboard is hurting both Winners & Losers
While a scoreboard can be demoralizing if you are getting dominated or it can dissuade you from making a real effort if you are dominating, in close match ups it can provide the motivation you need to take those last few keeps/towers/supply camps before each tick.
If you log in and have no idea of your current position you don’t know how desperately you need to fight to get that next control point and it may end up causing players to put less effort in to taking stuff.
Just my 2 cents.
I don’t think in the grand scheme of things it will matter. I am on SBI and will play HoD again next match and the match after and the match after till we all get fed up and don’t play. Unless something else changes there will never be a SBI vs JQ vs ET match. Even if you hide the scores until the end of every match.
Btw, that has to do with 24/7 coverage more than anything else. How does hiding the score fix that?
Soon, there will be no losers, only winners. And if everyone is a winner, nobody is.
Xiro, High Five Warriors [HFW], Jade Quarry
While a scoreboard can be demoralizing if you are getting dominated or it can dissuade you from making a real effort if you are dominating, in close match ups it can provide the motivation you need to take those last few keeps/towers/supply camps before each tick.
If you log in and have no idea of your current position you don’t know how desperately you need to fight to get that next control point and it may end up causing players to put less effort in to taking stuff.
Just my 2 cents.
You would still have the map and see who controls what. So you can get a vague idea of who is currently winning on a short term basis.
Soon, there will be no losers, only winners. And if everyone is a winner, nobody is.
You clearly did not bother to read the post, gg.
I don’t think in the grand scheme of things it will matter. I am on SBI and will play HoD again next match and the match after and the match after till we all get fed up and don’t play. Unless something else changes there will never be a SBI vs JQ vs ET match. Even if you hide the scores until the end of every match.
Btw, that has to do with 24/7 coverage more than anything else. How does hiding the score fix that?
Yes you are right there are other issues to resolve as well. However this topic is strictly about morale and how the scoreboard affects that. The top ranked servers are not going to experience what I bring up in this topic as much. Those 3 servers are closely matched.
However if you transferred to a server in a match up were a server is getting spanked by 100k+ points you get what I am saying.
[LGN] Legion For We Are Many – a Blackgate guild
The solution is to scale the points gained based on the number of people on each side and the point difference.
The less people fighting, the more points will they receive for each objective.
The less points your side has, the more points will it receive for each objective.
This means small servers will be able to compete with giants, and nightcapping will cease to be an issue. At any point in time during the match, regardless of the point difference, everyone will have a chance to catch up if they only try.
The solution is to scale the points gained based on the number of people on each side and the point difference.
The less people fighting, the more points will they receive for each objective.
The less points your side has, the more points will it receive for each objective.
This means small servers will be able to compete with giants, and nightcapping will cease to be an issue. At any point in time during the match, regardless of the point difference, everyone will have a chance to catch up if they only try.
That may be so. However this topic is not going over this subject at all. I am strictly talking about the psychological impact of the scoreboard and the results it is currently producing across the game.
I will repeat the questions I asked in the OP. Those questions should give you an idea of what a good number of servers are experiencing or have experienced while winning or losing.
Does it feel good to see your server taking a beating? Do you feel like jumping into WvW and playing when your server is down by 100K+ pts or hell even 50K pts? For the most part I am sure a lot of you do not want to.
For those that are currently in match ups were you are getting stomped on and destroyed are many players in your server queuing up and trying to rally and fight back? Are the maps pretty devoid of your server mates?
For those that are winning by a huge margin do you enjoy jumping into map only to find no enemies to fight or do battle with? Is that fun?
[LGN] Legion For We Are Many – a Blackgate guild
Hey folks we have a discussion about this topic going on in my guild forums and and on GW2Guru forums. I thought I would bring it up here for us to discuss as well. I will not give a TLDR summary, so don’t bother commenting if you cannot read and offer up a real discussion on the topic.
The topic is the Scoreboard, yes that’s right the end all be all to who is 1st, 2nd or 3rd. That arbitrary number that says hey your winning or hey your a loser.
Why do I bring this up, well its killing morale across the game. This number that dictates all basically is a psychological killer for those that are losing tremendously and puts the stop to WvW fun for those that are winning. So let me ask you folks this.
Does it feel good to see your server taking a beating? Do you feel like jumping into WvW and playing when your server is down by 100K+ pts or hell even 50K pts? For the most part I am sure a lot of you do not want to.
For those that are currently in match ups were you are getting stomped on and destroyed are many players in your server queuing up and trying to rally and fight back? Are the maps pretty devoid of your server mates?
For those that are winning by a huge margin do you enjoy jumping into map only to find no enemies to fight or do battle with? Is that fun?
I think many of you can answer that above with a simple yeah it sucks.
I am sure many of you have experienced this already over the past couple of weeks. You log into the game check the score and see your losing by 100K pts so you say kitten it I am not gonna bother to jump and play some WvW I will just lose money on repairs and lost siege. This acts as a cascade effect that results in many players not bothering to play resulting in very very boring WvW match ups.
Now I am not one of those people that thinks everybody is a winner. I am not preaching that at all. I believe there should be rankings and match ups and some rivalry. I think A.Net should rank the servers and should post scores. So you may now think wtf is he saying. Well the solution is simple.
Hide the score until the end of the match
This solves the issue! Servers can then duke it out aggressively throughout the week because nobody knows exactly who is winning. This will promote a frame of mind that yes I can jump in now and contribute. Maybe what I do know will help us win at the end of the week. This is a win win scenario for ALL. It removes the psychological killer and keeps the action going for all.
Doing this also will result in a one hell of climax at the end of the week as thousands upon thousands of players across all servers sit at there computers hitting thatkittenreload button waiting for the FINAL SCORE every Friday! When that scores appears and your server wins what do you think your reaction will be? Oh just think of the bantter this will create, it would be glorious!
So what do you think my fellow players!
Nope.
Nope.
Fantastic discussion skills buddy!
[LGN] Legion For We Are Many – a Blackgate guild
I’ve been talking about this concept with my guild, not your suggestion, but just the idea of the score being demoralizing.
To keep morale up, I encourage my members to look at as “we’re all winning, because we’re all gaining bonuses for our server… one server is just winning faster, and one slower”, which is the reality of how the scoring works. Reminding everyone that “winning” provides nothing additional while staying in the fight and continually earning points to build up our rewards seems to keep everyone in a better mindset.
Leader of Unrefined [unr] – Ehmry Bay
(edited by remm.9357)
I’ve been talking about this concept with my guild, not your suggestion, but just the idea of the score being demoralizing.
To keep morale up, I encourage my members to look at as “we’re all winning, because we’re all gaining bonuses for our server… one server is just winning the faster, and one the slower”, which is the reality of how the scoring works. Reminding everyone that “winning” provides nothing additional while staying in the fight and continually earning points to build up our rewards seems to keep everyone in a better mindset.
Oh I agree, my guild has similar ideas. We honestly do not care about winning overall. We care about our own performance the most. However we do want to be able to jump into a match and have an opponent to fight. That is really hard when the other servers offer up none because everybody said kitten this we are down 500k pts. Likewise we like allies to play with but find it hard when our own server is not playing to much because again many people say kitten this and don’t play because there losing so bad.
[LGN] Legion For We Are Many – a Blackgate guild
Edit button disappears! Just saw that you’re Ehmry Bay too (Unrefined here), guess we’ve experienced both ends of the spectrum enough to notice these kinds of things.
Leader of Unrefined [unr] – Ehmry Bay
Hiding the score will help with demoralization, but I think people will still have a feeling for which way the match is going.
I propose a slightly different alternative that keeps the scoreboard, but displays it differently. It hopefully will help with the 24/7 problem as well.
The problem with the scoring system is the demoralization caused by it. You can’t keep track of the progress you make during your play time, so you have nothing to feel good about when it is lopsided even if you provide a very competitive fight during the time you play.
I would propose that the score remains as an indication of overall server strength but it is also split into different segments that represent the different segments of high activity that ArenaNet sees across all servers.
An example based on no data, just for illustration:
For a 24 hour day we split it into four segments of six hours that do not overlap and each has equal importance on the overall score. While one segment is active, each tick adds the current point totals to counters for each team for that active time segment and the overall point counter (the overall score is just a summation of points from each of the four segments).
At any point in time you can see what the current score for each segment is. This will allow servers to easily recognize where they are weakest and provide individual players with the ability to fight for pride in their most active time segment.
You could even go so far as to do a ramp down and up of total ppt as time segments end and begin to allow for the shift in populations across the world as people log off and come online. I’m not saying the ramping is necessary though, it would have to be based on the data.
In the end, the goal is to make the current system as fun for the most people possible while acknowledging the work and effort put in by large alliances that went for 24/7 coverage.
Edit button disappears! Just saw that you’re Ehmry Bay too (Unrefined here), guess we’ve experienced both ends of the spectrum enough to notice these kinds of things.
Exactly! I was afraid some players may not understand what I am saying because they have been lucky and have had good match ups for the past couple of weeks.
[LGN] Legion For We Are Many – a Blackgate guild
An example based on no data, just for illustration:
For a 24 hour day we split it into four segments of six hours that do not overlap and each has equal importance on the overall score. While one segment is active, each tick adds the current point totals to counters for each team for that active time segment and the overall point counter (the overall score is just a summation of points from each of the four segments).
At any point in time you can see what the current score for each segment is. This will allow servers to easily recognize where they are weakest and provide individual players with the ability to fight for pride in their most active time segment.
You could even go so far as to do a ramp down and up of total ppt as time segments end and begin to allow for the shift in populations across the world as people log off and come online. I’m not saying the ramping is necessary though, it would have to be based on the data.
In the end, the goal is to make the current system as fun for the most people possible while acknowledging the work and effort put in by large alliances that went for 24/7 coverage.
That’s a decent idea to monitor performance. However I do not propose to remove the score completely just hide for the most part with the final score revealed at the end of the match up.
The point is to remove that demoralizing affect that stops people from even jumping into WvW because they think its “hopeless”. We should keep showing the total points being earned and who has what, just remove the cumulative score.
[LGN] Legion For We Are Many – a Blackgate guild
The scoreboards are typically a reflection of a deeper game mechanic issue (population imbalance / ease of capturing undefended objectives). It doesn’t take long to realize you are facing 5x your fielded force across all the maps if you happen to play in that unfortunate block of time.
You should expect that the gold you dumped into a keep the previous day at least had a chance of lasting until you return. In this case, looking at the map (regardless of the scoreboard) has the same effect. “Meh”.
Your suggestion is a short term solution. It isn’t really morale that is effecting player dropoff. It’s just people are smart enough to know that a match has been lost intuitively so decide to wait till next week. Human beings are great at figuring out cost benefit. It’s why economics works. It may work the first week but when the score does eventually pop up it will reinforce their views and they’ll make assessments not even seeing a score the next time and may even hasten player dropoff if they predict wrongly.
Really ArenaNet should put a surrender vote in so that people can move on to the next match instead of having to wait till a global reset. Keep counting the scores but allow servers to majority vote to reset and restart tallying. Then still have the global reset each week or two weeks.
yea it hought the same, made my own thread about it acouple of days ago too:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Is-a-single-goal-and-win-condition-part-the-problem-here/first#post198614
it used to be about the PvP, now its about winning.
Xile | TRF – GM | [AU] Trf-guild.com – Now Recruiting.
The missing factor is momentum. People know that a small gain will not lead to overcoming such a large deficiency in points. Some sports leagues institute a mercy rule, whereby matches end early when a trouncing has been done. Not all sports institute this rule. The reason is momentum. Small gains can turn into a steamroll. There is such a thing as a momentum breaker. WvW does not have these things. WvW is like a make-it-take-it game. The one who has more gets more, more easily. No small gain will fuel a surge (a comeback) that will threaten the position of a server with a large lead.
A negative psychological effect of a score deficity is not what makes people not want to participate. It is the logic – that participation is of no advantage.
Yeah I find professional Football, you know, NFL, is very depressing to the losing players. As soon as one team has a 10 point lead, they get all demoralized and just stop trying. So they just lose. I propose that we eliminate score-keeping in Football. The goal will be who has the most fun. Pink socks will be required. Players will need to wear man-bras and not show so much skin. Those tights need to be made baggy because it’s too revealing. Dreadlocks should not be allowed, because some people are racist. If you have to play on turf, you can’t wear cleats, you have to wear flip flops. The football itself needs to be made out of recycled toilet seats. Referees need to be renamed Cheerees and blow party favors instead of whistles. The Fox dancing robot is too harsh and needs to be replaced with a Carebear who loves us. The point is, points are bad, so don’t have points, not even this post should have a point.
Mog,
Let’s begin with the point system. I believe it actually does need to stay there as it gives people something to shoot for. Some see it as an un-reachable goal while others see it as a challenge to complete. Without numbers how can you set goals to compete against the winning faction? I did read the part where you don’t want everyone to think that everyone is a winner, but if the point system is removed what’s going to be worse? The fact that everyone did their best and have smiles on their faces until the final score board appears and at that very moment everyone is then crushed? Or would it be better if people were striving get to that higher point realm? If there is no way to set a goal, what can people do to strive to be better?
I know you can watch the enemy and see what they do, start copying them, figure out that new strategy, however…to what end will you see success? One day you had 15k and the enemy team had 100k. Set a goal, try to double your score and figure ways to do so. Long term you’ll have your own strategies and you’ll be the server with 100k. You just need to work towards it.
Xirilic – Defenders of Heroism (Hero)
Leadership is the capacity to transform vision into reality.
Leadership is the capacity to transform vision into reality.