Guild Wars 2

best mobility, best burst, most escapes. no risk, high reward. if youre good, it’s like godmode, literally. WvW is dominated by thieves. there’s a reason for this.

main problem is stealth uptime. CD’s are straight up too low and stealth lasts too long. stealth is so long that u actually cant always see the thief coming, especially with culling problems. stealth is so long that if the thief messes up, he can easily disappear until all CD’s reset. no risk for generally high reward.

devs mentioned they wouldnt stress balance for WvW. but these mechanics are simply broken with culling issues. one thief can only be caught by a coordinated group by chaining dazes/stuns/immobilizes, often all three.

The Thiefs OP stealthing is a known issue that has a lot to do with the culling problem… It has been stated many times here in the forums.
Fix the culling issue, and the semi-perma stealth will fix itself.
Will that fix /all/ the balance issues? Probably not, but it will be a big step in the right direction in making Thieves much less FOTM…

but it’s not JUST the culling. stealth is too long and CD’s are too short, even without the culling problem.

Just laugh at people playing thiefs.
They are just playing easy mode afterall.
Their weaponskills don’t even have cooldowns

Offcourse combining skilled players with easymode makes for quite an unbalanced combination, but luckily most just spam their skills and die.

nerva.7940:

but it’s not JUST the culling. stealth is too long and CD’s are too short, even without the culling problem.

How would you know when culling plays a large part and is, unpredictable? I don’t agree they have the highest burst. I use P/D thief, and have never had any trouble with a burst thief. In fact, I think engineers have the best burst. I do agree they have the most mobility. Escape comes with mobility. I think thieves should have mobility. That’s what the thief is all about. Someone who “steals”(or in this case, attacks, mugs, whatever you want to call it) and gets away. Isn’t that in the name, thief? To take that away would fundamentally destroy the class(at least for us who don’t use burst). I wouldn’t mind a reduction on burst. I would prefer it not to happen, because it seems largely like a L2P issue for me, but since I don’t utilize burst, or never had a problem against it, I really wouldn’t notice at all. Just don’t nerf core thief fundamentals like mobility and stealth. Fix culling, then go from there.

The stealth is too long /because/ of the culling in WvW.
And I’m not suggesting that would fix all the problems… Just the very big one concerning ‘perma-stealth’ that shouldn’t be happening.
As for CD’s… I personally think they are too short as well, but that’s subject to opinion.

the stealth cooldown is 3 seconds, most abilities stealth you for 3 seconds unless you spec for the extra 1 second. Which gives you 2 utilities that can stealth for 3 seconds and a skill “cloak and dagger” which also stealth you for 3 seconds, then of course you have shadows refuge which can stealth you for i believe10 seconds total “IF” you stand within the refuge house for 4 seconds.

I have been playing as my thief lately and as a thief my main targets are other thieves and let me tell you they go down quite a bit. But yes they are a pain to kill on my guardian but its not impossible if you know what each stealth ability does.

But the fact remains they are not the driving force behind wvw victories.

So many people complaining about thieves must mean that something is not right

Centrix.4065:

So many people complaining about thieves must mean that something is not right

That’s exactly what I think. Believe me, I never have troubles with thieves in sPvP and WvW. If they win, that’s because they outplayed me. But when hundreds, if not thousands of people are complaining about thief balance something must be wrong.

Just don’t run solo. Thief problem solved.

Is it true that until today, THIEF is the ONLY profession in Guild Wars 2 that dev are still asking for feedback from the community on how to change/improve it?

Yet another thief rage thread. Go make yourself a thief and start becoming one of these gods you hate so much. Two things are going to happen when you do.

1- Your going to find out just how hard it is to actually pull off what they are using to kill you.

2- Your going to learn how to counter thieves.

I play a thief. First toon was a thief and I learned the game through one. I know them backwards and forwards now. Because of this when I see one I know just what it takes to kill them and how to shut them down. There are so many members in my guild with level 80 thieves who don’t ever use them because if you know how they work you know how to counter them with any class.

tl:dr
Stop crying about this class. The culling problem isn’t just thieves and although exploitable by them doesn’t mean the class itself is broken. The class is balanced and you just need to learn the game.

Professor Sensei.2941:

Yet another thief rage thread. Go make yourself a thief and start becoming one of these gods you hate so much. Two things are going to happen when you do.

1- Your going to find out just how hard it is to actually pull off what they are using to kill you.

2- Your going to learn how to counter thieves.

I play a thief. First toon was a thief and I learned the game through one. I know them backwards and forwards now. Because of this when I see one I know just what it takes to kill them and how to shut them down. There are so many members in my guild with level 80 thieves who don’t ever use them because if you know how they work you know how to counter them with any class.

tl:dr
Stop crying about this class. The culling problem isn’t just thieves and although exploitable by them doesn’t mean the class itself is broken. The class is balanced and you just need to learn the game.

Let me get this straight, you are asking the OP to roll a thief = play a thief = WvW = Thief Wars 2. Sounds like you are supporting the OP LOL

i know how to counter thieves in my paid tourney matches, 5v5 isnt really a problem. i wont stop crying about this class and no one will. so stop asking the impossible. my buddy mains a thief in wvw, and hes just sick and tired of the low skillcap and the stupidity of the prof. he shelved his thief and i get why hes doing it. but i cant ask thousands of players to boycott the prof until culling is fixed.

thieves killing me in wvw isnt the problem. notice how i dont talk about thief burst in my thread. problem is them being uncatchable, virtually godmode.

shochinhwa.1648:

Let me get this straight, you are asking the OP to roll a thief = play a thief = WvW = Thief Wars 2. Sounds like you are supporting the OP LOL

Not really. He’s making it sound like all you see is thieves everywhere in WvWvW. This game is far from being “over run” by thieves. This constant crying about them is really getting old.

@nerva
You have no idea what you are talking about.
1. Best mobility – D/D Ele wins that fight from the locker.
2. Best burst – Warrior, Engie, Mesmer, D/D ele. Thief has one burst during which he is so vunlarble, the others not so much. And believe me mesmers can do more burst and have higher health pool from 900 range

The only issue with thief is the culling after invisibility as it is the class that has most access to it. However culling is abused by mesmers as well, not on the same level ofc.
Once culling is fixed the thief will stay revaled for at least 3 seconds at least before he can restealth and if you cannot do dmg for that 3 seconds oh wel… l2p And please let us know for what cooldowns are you talking about.

nerva.7940:

devs mentioned they wouldnt stress balance for WvW.

I’m pretty sure that summarizes the futility of all the WvW/Thief kittenfest Threads.

Cal.1985:

@nerva
You have no idea what you are talking about.
1. Best mobility – D/D Ele wins that fight from the locker.
2. Best burst – Warrior, Engie, Mesmer, D/D ele. Thief has one burst during which he is so vunlarble, the others not so much. And believe me mesmers can do more burst and have higher health pool from 900 range

actually, i do have an idea about what im talking about. thief has the most reliable burst in the game. youre the one without a shred of serious pvp experience.

warrior – one good dodge, a little bit of environmental awareness (just a little), and not only can he no longer apply the burst but he’s DEAD.
d/d ele – u can dodge just about every move from his chain. eles can also be crippled and cc’d because they are visible
engie – just burst him down first. he has no mobility, and he cant apply his burst.
mesmer – only in tpvp. i dont see any shatter mesmers in wvw. dont think ive seen one actually. my guildie tries to play one, and hes good, but it just doesnt work.

so it’s all about applied burst. thief has the best applied burst. next.

Professor Sensei.2941:

shochinhwa.1648:

Let me get this straight, you are asking the OP to roll a thief = play a thief = WvW = Thief Wars 2. Sounds like you are supporting the OP LOL

Not really. He’s making it sound like all you see is thieves everywhere in WvWvW. This game is far from being “over run” by thieves. This constant crying about them is really getting old.

But it’s true though, I came across a guild the other day that specifically run in groups of thieves. Can’t remember the tag but it was a band of thieves. Can you imagine the fear of a single player accidentally bumped into not one thieves but a group of 5 to 8 of them! Fear!

@nerva
So what is stopping you from dodging the thief after he ports to you? Uses CnD? Steals? Lands backstab or to root him? Am I missing something assuming that you are not running full glass cannon?

Warrior – please dodge all attacks in group fight. We are not talking 1v1.
d/d ele – same. However my statement for best mobility stays no one at the moment beats d/d/ ele.
mesmer – wrong. Play better, I am melting people in seconds from 900 range and have like 3k more health then my thief. And who said to use sPvP spec ^^
engie – so the engie has more burst than you but you must burst him down first? Cool.

nerva.7940:

actually, i do have an idea about what im talking about. thief has the most reliable burst in the game. youre the one without a shred of serious pvp experience.

warrior – one good dodge, warrior dead.
d/d ele – u can dodge just about every move from his chain
engie – just burst him down first. he has no mobility, he cant apply his burst.
mesmer – only in tpvp. i dont see any shatter mesmers in wvw. dont think ive seen one actually. my guildie tries to play one, and hes good, but it just doesnt work.

so it’s all about applied burst. thief has the best applied burst. next.

You can come up with whatever propietary terminology you want to, with the descriptions you just listed it’s clear you’re trolling.
Or you’re a bad who doesn’t know how bad they are. (It’s so sad to see that, really.)

nerva.7940:

engie – just burst him down first. he has no mobility, he cant apply his burst.
so it’s all about applied burst. thief has the best applied burst. next.

If a thief has enough burst to make you kitten yourself so much he/she is going to take that damage back 10 fold. Beyond that all you really need to do is chill or immobilize them.

Here’s a quick walk-through on how to kill a thief.

1-See thief
2-Don’t see thief
3-Take mid range to large amount of damage
Now this next part is tricky so pay close attention
4-UNLOAD ON IT! All it takes is a stun, snare, or chill to assure they are going to stay in the general area or exactly where you rooted them.
5- Pick up loot bag.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve waited for the thief burst on my thief. Once I see the CnD dmg I dodge roll and CnD myself. If it goes off all I do is tap my 1 key and spam auto attacks. A few moments later I see either a corpse on the ground or someone able to be finished. Its that easy.

Aervius.2016:

(It’s so sad to see that, really.)

the absolute saddest thing that ive seen on these forums is how hard some thief mainers are clutching onto their broken, skill-less prof. and i say broken because, well, with culling thieves are literally broken. the responsible thief mainers are actually coming out and supporting change, which is very much appreciated by the rest of the pvp community.

I have been trying to debunk these thief threads but they seem to have evolved into the level of self perpetuating myth.

I do wonder what people wandering about getting jumped by these dread thieves are doing? Jumping puzzles, points of interest, vistas, skill points and other such pvp staples?

nerva.7940:

Cal.1985:

@nerva
You have no idea what you are talking about.
1. Best mobility – D/D Ele wins that fight from the locker.
2. Best burst – Warrior, Engie, Mesmer, D/D ele. Thief has one burst during which he is so vunlarble, the others not so much. And believe me mesmers can do more burst and have higher health pool from 900 range

actually, i do have an idea about what im talking about. thief has the most reliable burst in the game. youre the one without a shred of serious pvp experience.

warrior – one good dodge, a little bit of environmental awareness (just a little), and not only can he no longer apply the burst but he’s DEAD.
d/d ele – u can dodge just about every move from his chain. eles can also be crippled and cc’d because they are visible
engie – just burst him down first. he has no mobility, and he cant apply his burst.
mesmer – only in tpvp. i dont see any shatter mesmers in wvw. dont think ive seen one actually. my guildie tries to play one, and hes good, but it just doesnt work.

so it’s all about applied burst. thief has the best applied burst. next.

So, for the Ele..

Depending on the build, you may or may not be able to dodge their burst.
A lot of ele’s have figured out a build that lets them burst for 10k or so, while they are squishy during their down time ( and rightfully so) some setups cant be just dodged and CC’ed when the first moment of the encounter is a CC then a spike.

For the Shatter Mesmer-
Shatter builds can be very successful in WvW in a small group of roamers where targets can be isolated and focused either by an individual or by the team.
Like Tpvp if a shatter mes catches you in the open alone or catches you in the back of a group with little to no help.
You can and possible will be bursted down.
And a mes can start the burst chain from stealth if they choose to.

While I agree with some people about thief, like the culling or the animation clipping with quickness, a lot of the other issues are simply a L2P issue.

It really does help if you pick one up and play it, Thieves actually have some really predictable tactics that 90% of them use without fail, if you learn them, then you can counter them just as easy.

nerva.7940:

Aervius.2016:

(It’s so sad to see that, really.)

the absolute saddest thing that ive seen on these forums is how hard some thief mainers are clutching onto their broken, skill-less prof. and i say broken because, well, with culling thieves are literally broken. the responsible thief mainers are actually coming out and supporting change, which is very much appreciated by the rest of the pvp community.

Well, that couldn’t possibly be any worse than the army of WoW/LoTR/SWoTR bads screaming nerf when they get outclassed by a gimmicky build they could destroy in seconds when they stop kittening and LEARN TO PLAY.

Furthermore, this isn’t Warhammer, DAoC, SWoTR.
WvW =/= PvP.
You don’t see Culling happening in sPvP. Try actually PvPing for a change instead of wandering out into WvW Lakes and getting jumped by a full zerker Cooldown Thief.

It isn’t the Thief professions’ fault that Culling exists, nor is it the fault of the playerbase that enjoys the Thief.
It isn’t the fault of the Gimmick Thief that you are gullible enough to deadpan to your immediate front at all times, completely ignoring the fact that you are in a 360-degree combat environment.
It isn’t the fault of the decent Thief players that you can’t learn to counter our classes’ respective gimmicks.

Do I agree that culling needs to be removed? Of course I do.
But from what I’ve seen enemy players will just be standing around with their thumb up their kitten for a shorter duration when Culling is fixed and people will still be coming onto the forums to kitten about thieves because the bads on this forum don’t want to actually listen to the community and Learn. To. Play.
So, be the first.

Seems most of the ’it’s easy to counter a thief’ answers are coming from people who mainly play THIEF. Tells you everything you need to know really.

For a lot of players being basilisked, then hit for 8k steal/mug, 6k, 6k cnd and being dead or almost dead within one second, can’t even see them while they finish you isn’t their idea of fun (with 1800 toughness and 22k hp).

Defend it all you like, but in wvw thiefs hit way too hard, have way too much space to kite away if you do manage somehow to guess EXACTLY when they are about to hit you whilst being invisible, and by the time you managed to avoid something your HP is so low you’re as good as dead anyway- as they can kite around 5/6 people all throwing aoe and swinging like mad, pop up and finish you off.

They don’t have much affect in the overall scheme of wvw (except when they hunt in groups of 5 or more), but they do annoy a lot of people into quitting wvw or at least contributing to them not enjoying the game and hence going to play another game which might be more fun.

Thief class I guess is where the usual ’i’m leet’ (for which read ’I’m a chicken ganker’) players go- every MMO has a class which attracts this type of player, and they will usually defend it’s OPness by saying ‘l2p’ or ’it’s easy to counter (play a thief)’.

shochinhwa.1648:

Professor Sensei.2941:

shochinhwa.1648:

Let me get this straight, you are asking the OP to roll a thief = play a thief = WvW = Thief Wars 2. Sounds like you are supporting the OP LOL

Not really. He’s making it sound like all you see is thieves everywhere in WvWvW. This game is far from being “over run” by thieves. This constant crying about them is really getting old.

But it’s true though, I came across a guild the other day that specifically run in groups of thieves. Can’t remember the tag but it was a band of thieves. Can you imagine the fear of a single player accidentally bumped into not one thieves but a group of 5 to 8 of them! Fear!

try running into a group of ele’s

Victory.2879:

Seems most of the ’it’s easy to counter a thief’ answers are coming from people who mainly play THIEF. Tells you everything you need to know really.

For a lot of players being basilisked, then hit for 8k steal/mug, 6k, 6k cnd and being dead or almost dead within one second, can’t even see them while they finish you isn’t their idea of fun (with 1800 toughness and 22k hp).

Defend it all you like, but in wvw thiefs hit way too hard, have way too much space to kite away if you do manage somehow to guess EXACTLY when they are about to hit you whilst being invisible, and by the time you managed to avoid something your HP is so low you’re as good as dead anyway- as they can kite around 5/6 people all throwing aoe and swinging like mad, pop up and finish you off.

They don’t have much affect in the overall scheme of wvw (except when they hunt in groups of 5 or more), but they do annoy a lot of people into quitting wvw or at least contributing to them not enjoying the game and hence going to play another game which might be more fun.

Thief class I guess is where the usual ’i’m leet’ (for which read ’I’m a chicken ganker’) players go- every MMO has a class which attracts this type of player, and they will usually defend it’s OPness by saying ‘l2p’ or ’it’s easy to counter (play a thief)’.

8k mug? now that’s just a bit of an over exaggeration…seriously I have been playing my thief a lot lately instead of my guardian and the most I have been hit for is 5k, and plenty of other classes hit me for 5k..

Running into a group of 5-8 of anything will get you probably killed…

As for Thief wars 2. I call BS. I see more Warriors than Thieves. OMG Warrior wars 2. And the comment about Thief players saying the Thief is easy to counter, maybe it is a L2P issue people. Those who understand the class, have no issue countering the class. Those that don’t understand it, do.

Perma stealth and massive burst do not go hand in hand. They are 2 strengths of different builds. And of course by perma stealth I mean 50% stealth on the condition nobody ever dodges a CnD. Revealed debuff people, it exists. And if they are truly perma stealthing (aka CnD timing perfectly on you, or other methods than don’t even hit you), who cares? They’re harmless doing it. And if it’s the CnD method you deserve it frankly, kissing range melee move and you do nothing about it.

Solori.6025:

It really does help if you pick one up and play it, Thieves actually have some really predictable tactics that 90% of them use without fail, if you learn them, then you can counter them just as easy.

This.
I am qouting your comment to reinforce it’s validity and usefulness to the OP.

Centrix.4065:

So many people complaining about thieves must mean that something is not right

Considering every single game that has a stealth/cloaking ability. People complain that it is ‘unfair’ and ‘overpowered’. I think it is normal.

But I do see a trend of people complaining about a class they perceived to be overpowered. Yet… not play it out of some sort of ‘noble’ stance? If you think a class is god mode. Stop complaining and play it.

Thief is my main. I enjoyed it the moment I tried it out on a BWE and it was my first character of day one head start. I enjoy playing the class. But if people are intent of ‘nerfing it to the ground’ and elevating another class. Well, guess what? I have 2 other 80s and plenty of character slots. It’s not like I cannot play another class that is perceived to be ‘flavor of the month’ since all your progress is account based rather than character based. Saves a lot of pointless complaining and instead can continue on playing the game.

ps. my condition trap ranger eats thieves for breakfast. Especially backstab thieves. Lay traps. Get instant feed back upon the thief’s position. Profit.

Why would a thief-player explain step-by-step how to counter a thief? Do you want more people to be able to kill you? :P I wouldn’t explain how to counter my ele. Figure it out by yourself lol (shouldn’t be so hard anyway)

But yeah what I mainly do with thieves is make sure they are immobilized somehow and then pop as much dmg onto that location as possible. Works most of the time.

- edit

That is… if I see them coming at me brah

WTB forum lock for a post that adds absolutely nothing to the 1000’s of “thieves are OP because…” threads. We all know this (including Anet!), it’s nothing new, and it clogs the forums.

No disrespect intended, but this is a post that is exactly like tons of others.

Azure Prower.8701:

Centrix.4065:

So many people complaining about thieves must mean that something is not right

Considering every single game that has a stealth/cloaking ability. People complain that it is ‘unfair’ and ‘overpowered’. I think it is normal.

But I do see a trend of people complaining about a class they perceived to be overpowered. Yet… not play it out of some sort of ‘noble’ stance? If you think a class is god mode. Stop complaining and play it.

Thief is my main. I enjoyed it the moment I tried it out on a BWE and it was my first character of day one head start. I enjoy playing the class. But if people are intent of ‘nerfing it to the ground’ and elevating another class. Well, guess what? I have 2 other 80s and plenty of character slots. It’s not like I cannot play another class that is perceived to be ‘flavor of the month’ since all your progress is account based rather than character based. Saves a lot of pointless complaining and instead can continue on playing the game.

ps. my condition trap ranger eats thieves for breakfast. Especially backstab thieves. Lay traps. Get instant feed back upon the thief’s position. Profit.

Which is exactly what the OP meant WvW = Thief Wars 2 = everyone playing a thief. I guess you just don’t get it. Get it?

If only Thieves and the WvW community knew what I had planned for them ;o)

@shochinhwa
If you ask me last night was all Guardian Wars 2. The previous night was Warriors Wars 2, oh and it was horrible on Monday it Mesmers Wars 2. It is just horrible.

Btw there is (almost)nothing easier to kill than a glasscannon thief.
Someone mentioned basilisk venom… which unlike the moa can be removed with stun breaker no?

Thiefs are a pain in the a** in WvW, if you are alone and wana go back to your army.
But beside a few for scouting & stealth supply-line sabotage, they have nearly no influence on the outcome of a match.

In army fights Guardian, Necro, Ele and Warrior are much more effective.

Victory.2879:

Seems most of the ’it’s easy to counter a thief’ answers are coming from people who mainly play THIEF. Tells you everything you need to know really.

For a lot of players being basilisked, then hit for 8k steal/mug, 6k, 6k cnd and being dead or almost dead within one second, can’t even see them while they finish you isn’t their idea of fun (with 1800 toughness and 22k hp).

I call bull on this.
Unless the thief is animation clipping which is an issue in and of itself.
As an ele with 1250 toughness and 21k hp am I survivng this, and I can react fast enough ( with caffine and a healthy balanced breakfest )to recover from this gimmick and come out on top of the situation.

But as of late people ( lol thieves) have been calling ele OP so….

Defend it all you like, but in wvw thiefs hit way too hard, have way too much space to kite away if you do manage somehow to guess EXACTLY when they are about to hit you whilst being invisible, and by the time you managed to avoid something your HP is so low you’re as good as dead anyway- as they can kite around 5/6 people all throwing aoe and swinging like mad, pop up and finish you off.

You have to be in a group of 5-6 very horrible players if none of them can catch the thief. I could forgive 2 or 3 ( if they are all melee) but not 5-6. Thier is something very wrong with that.

Ele burst
http://youtu.be/7tpWwTeyTRA

Mesmer Burst
http://youtu.be/Wr8l833Gs9I

Your quite wrong in the notion that thief is the only burst/ get away just cause , class.
Mesmers and ele’s can be just as annoying.

They don’t have much affect in the overall scheme of wvw (except when they hunt in groups of 5 or more), but they do annoy a lot of people into quitting wvw or at least contributing to them not enjoying the game and hence going to play another game which might be more fun.

And thats speaks more about the player than the game.
If someone would rather cry, and whine then get better, learn what could have been different and build accordingly then they wont pvp or wvw for very long, if ever.
Why is thier absence an issue?

Thief class I guess is where the usual ’i’m leet’ (for which read ’I’m a chicken ganker’) players go- every MMO has a class which attracts this type of player, and they will usually defend it’s OPness by saying ‘l2p’ or ’it’s easy to counter (play a thief)’.

not saying that All is good and thieves dont have problems..
Like the mesmer burst ( vid above) I think something unintentional happens when thieves combine quickness + their combo, and for the people that can actually kill you in 1 second, its because of this
http://youtu.be/LbhdsF4oEI8

and we get to one of the biggest offenders of the combo at hand.
Quickness.
The easy access for this boon, makes combo’s that do large amounts of damage over the top because now that damage happens twice as fast AND you clip the animation so that abilities happen simultaniously.

This is what people need to be attacking, this is whats killing you in 1 second, this is whats happening and why you cant react and you cant target the thief before it kills you.
Quickness.

Culling needs to be fixed
Quickness needs to be addressed
Ability clipping needs to be fixed

^
The biggest steps in the right direction will have a large impact on a lot of classes.

Doomdesire.9365:

Escape comes with mobility. I think thieves should have mobility. That’s what the thief is all about. Someone who “steals”(or in this case, attacks, mugs, whatever you want to call it) and gets away. Isn’t that in the name, thief?

If we are going by what the names imply then I should have stealth on my thief, not invisibility.

I’ve been levelling a thief (now 61) to see for myself and I agree with the OP, it is not merely culling, if you take a couple of stealth traits like the +1 sec one in shadow arts, plus have a utility or two that give stealth (especailly shadow refuge) and you have the heal that gives stealth, you can chain stealths together to get quite a period of stealth, then you can get stealth on steal or stealth if you take more than 10% of your HP in damage in a single attack. That is all without having to even hit anyone with cloak & dagger…

In defensive terms it is actually better (as in more powerfuul) than permastealth in other games, because in WvW you can stealth for long enough to get away, but you can also do it multiple times, FROM COMBAT, nor are you knocked out of stealth by damage.

Which is a big problem, risk vs reward is a fundamental part of PvP in MMORPGs, yet the balance on my thief is completely out compared to say my enginerer or necro, if I muck up on my thief or misjudge a situation, 95% of the time I can escape, even on a low level character with often out of date gear, there is a total lack of risk, which is why there are so many glass cannon thieves running about.

On a side note, it probably doesn’t help in terms of annoying players, that it is a very easy class to play, you have faceroll teleports to target, faceroll evades, do really high damage with few button presses, not havng to rely on combos and that is also very easy to apply.

The class is just poorly designed, it seems devs can never learn invisibility + big burst + ability to escape is an unbalanceable failure in every game it is in.

Sylosi.6503:

Doomdesire.9365:

Escape comes with mobility. I think thieves should have mobility. That’s what the thief is all about. Someone who “steals”(or in this case, attacks, mugs, whatever you want to call it) and gets away. Isn’t that in the name, thief?

If we are going by what the names imply then I should have stealth on my thief, not invisibility.

I’ve been levelling a thief (now 61) to see for myself and I agree with the OP, it is not merely culling, if you take a couple of stealth traits like the +1 sec one in shadow arts, plus have a utility or two that give stealth (especailly shadow refuge) and you have the heal that gives stealth, you can chain stealths together to get quite a period of stealth, then you can get stealth on steal or stealth if you take more than 10% in a single attack.

In defensive terms it is actually better (as in more powerfuul) than permastealth in other games, because in WvW you can stealth for long enough to get away, but you can also do it multiple times, from combat nor are you knocked out of stealth by damage.

Which is a big problem, risk vs reward is a fundamental part of PvP in MMORPGs, yet the balance on my thief is completely out compared to say my enginerer or necro, if I muck up on my thief or misjudge a situation, 95% of the time I can escape, even on a low level character with often out of date gear, there is a total lack of risk, which is why there are so many glass cannon thieves running about.

On a side note, it probably doesn’t help it is a very easy class to play, you have faceroll teleports to target, faceroll evades, do really high damage with few button presses, not havng to rely on combos and that is also very easy to apply.

The class is just poorly designed, it seems devs can never learn invisibility + big burst + ability to escape is an unbalanceable failure in every game it is in.

Some things wrong with this.
Like the mesmer
If you spec to escape, you escape really easy.
this comes naturally for the theif and is almost unneccassary because
And i quote from the Dec 14th Class balance philosphy section
*Thief
* Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.

I can tell you.
If you spec Defensivly you are not going to reach the high damage numbers of a glass cannon.
If you spec glass cannon your not going to carry the utilites that a defensive stealth spec would, because your maximizing everything for burst.

“Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage”. This is where the problem is, doesn’t matter what nerf/balance you do to the thief skills, if you want to maintain this design philosophy you don’t need to balance thief

No matter what change you make to thief, they will always be the masters of the 3 best things in this game now – mobility, stealth and DPS. Period.

shochinhwa.1648:

“Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage”. This is where the problem is, doesn’t matter what nerf/balance you do to the thief skills, if you want to maintain this design philosophy you don’t need to balance thief

No matter what change you make to thief, they will always be the masters of the 3 best things in this game now – mobility, stealth and DPS. Period.

So with this in mind….
Why are we ( forum warrior’s on both sides and in the middle of the fence) still having this same conversation every hour?

Solori.6025:

shochinhwa.1648:

“Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage”. This is where the problem is, doesn’t matter what nerf/balance you do to the thief skills, if you want to maintain this design philosophy you don’t need to balance thief

No matter what change you make to thief, they will always be the masters of the 3 best things in this game now – mobility, stealth and DPS. Period.

So with this in mind….
Why are we ( forum warrior’s on both sides and in the middle of the fence) still having this same conversation every hour?

Cause we are human and we find things to argue about.

shochinhwa.1648:

Solori.6025:

shochinhwa.1648:

“Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage”. This is where the problem is, doesn’t matter what nerf/balance you do to the thief skills, if you want to maintain this design philosophy you don’t need to balance thief

No matter what change you make to thief, they will always be the masters of the 3 best things in this game now – mobility, stealth and DPS. Period.

So with this in mind….
Why are we ( forum warrior’s on both sides and in the middle of the fence) still having this same conversation every hour?

Cause we are human and we find things to argue about.

Thats aggravatingly illogical -_-

Its like the saying

" why scream if no one can hear you?"

Solori.6025:

shochinhwa.1648:

Solori.6025:

shochinhwa.1648:

“Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage”. This is where the problem is, doesn’t matter what nerf/balance you do to the thief skills, if you want to maintain this design philosophy you don’t need to balance thief

No matter what change you make to thief, they will always be the masters of the 3 best things in this game now – mobility, stealth and DPS. Period.

So with this in mind….
Why are we ( forum warrior’s on both sides and in the middle of the fence) still having this same conversation every hour?

Cause we are human and we find things to argue about.

Thats aggravatingly illogical -_-

Its like the saying

" why scream if no one can hear you?"

Because screaming is fun!

How to fix thief in the short and long term

Short:
Increase revealed time.

It’s not doing its job at all right now due to culling. They’ll still be able to get in free hits before they load in, but at least they won’t be able to remain near perma-stealthed (visually).

Long:

Fix culling & reduce revealed time back to what it was before.

Thief is now fixed.

That’s all that is needed and the short fix could have been done easily ages ago.

Aberrant.6749:

How to fix thief in the short and long term

Short:
Increase revealed time.

It’s not doing its job at all right now due to culling. They’ll still be able to get in free hits before they load in, but at least they won’t be able to remain near perma-stealthed (visually).

Long:

Fix culling & reduce revealed time back to what it was before.

Thief is now fixed.

That’s all that is needed and the short fix could have been done easily ages ago.

Did you not watch the animation clipping vid i posted =_=

Im sick and tired of these stupid Thieves are OP threads.

I play both a thief and a necromancer in wvw and spvp. The only thing that needs to be changed is the culling issue in wvw, which has nothing to do with the thief profession.

When Im on my necro, thieves dont scare me one bit. You know what does? Guardians that have tons of burning, knockdowns, immunity cooldowns, and HP that never seems to budge no matter how much damage i pump into them. D/D eles that seem to never die, even when i strip them of all their boons and they shoot away on a bolt of kittening lightning.

What it comes down to is that bad players die easily to thieves. Isnt it funny how in tpvp thieves are balanced, and not even in the upper tier of profs to bring on your team? Probably because those players who run paid tourneys know how to build and play their characters.

Im not saying thieves are balanced well. The profession overall has some major issues. But it has nothing to do with being too powerful compared to other professions, especially in a team based environment like wvw.

Im sorry that Anet cant seem to fix the culling issue in wvw, but dont take it out on thieves, get mad at Anet. And if you think thieves are too powerful in spvp, and stealth is too strong, L2P, because thieves have stealth for a reason, thier HP, armor, and mitigation is complete kitten.

I should also add that I think its funny that most people complain about zerker backstab thieves, which are by far the easiest to counter. Pistol condition thieves are by far more powerful and noob friendly.

Personally I see more ele’s than thieves. Just d/d eles everywhere.