Guild Wars 2

Ok so after a very long time ofcontemplating whether or not I actually wanted to post this, I decided not to hesitate this time simply because I know I’m going to get berated by the massive influx of the cubby holing jerks that kill the game mode so easily.

Okay, I’m from Blackgate, and although I am greatly hated by many guilds within the server simply for my blunt and obtuse attitude of wanting to get points across to guild leaders and other members, I still try and make the most of what I can do as a guardian.

Lately, a lot of guilds have left the servers, and I’m talking ones that had the warlike spirit that used to be in WvW. And up until recently, my biggest fears have finally awoken; all of the guilds I’m in have to put simply called the nights early and its because of only one reason: our (Blackgate) enemies don’t want to brawl with us anymore.

Ever since the mechanics of towers have changed from Banners being too overpowered to keeps getting fortifications, things have started to go downhill. Because of these changes, mobs and I’m talking about blobs of like 70+ people have decided that instead of attacking the people on the ground with solid weaponry that they have worked hard to get from PvE, they’re going to use siege instead and decide to never come out of the tower to even attempt to wipe out the enemy.

Now you may be saying one of the many things (all not listed) below:
-zerg vs zerg fighting is just something that dumb people do to try to look cool.
-zerg vs zerg is the same as spamming 1 in a blob in eotm anyway
- I hate zerging its the same as pve, and if I really wanted to kill people I would just go to pvp

If you did, then you don’t realize it but you add on to what will be the end of WvW. See what happens is that commanders want the sense of wanting to fight back. No commander in their right minds just wants to win PPT for the server and just go up in rank to PPT harder. To be honest that’s simply just the same as wanting to PvE in WvW! The rewards you get such as the gathering bonus and things like that, I can assure not that many people pay attention to in the first place to begin with.

The way WvW will die is kind of like how the Cold War happened. Everyone has nukes, and solid foundations but in the end nobody will actually do anything. Likewise, here’s how it relates to WvW.

Imagine you are a commander, and as a commander you look at a map and all you see is tier 3 structures that are fully fortified to the core with what seems to be endless amounts of siege consisting of arrow carts, trebuchets, catapults, and shield generators. So you go around trying to get the enemy to come out by taking those tier 3 keeps, so you waste supply time and energy for like 5-6 flame rams to destroy a tower gate. 10 minutes later, success, you captured a tower, the enemy is sure to come out now and attempt to kill your forces, and no matter the cost, you are willing to put in the effort to make everyone come out.

So you go to another tower, and like the last it is armed to the core with heavy artillery. You drop your rams down destroy as much of the outer siege that you can. Within a few minutes, a few of the enemies get inside their towers, and it takes even longer to bring the gates down because they are delaying with siege traps and using their supply to fix the gates. 10 minutes go by and you’re almost done when suddenly an enemy group of like 40+ people comes at you. You decide to rush to fight them, granted there’s still a crap ton of siege in the tower, you still try to take them out. Then rather than to try and fight back at you the enemy circles about you, refusing to take the opportunity to fight, and rushes into their t3 tower. Then they just simply wait for the siege to lower your health and it hits you that they’re not going to fight you because they want your health to be lowered before they try to even cleave through your forces. 30 minutes go by and the cycle still continues, no progress made, and nothing gotten and nobody killed. As a commander you feel compelled to just go somewhere else, but you already know that that someplace else also has t3 fortified keeps. So you call it for the night and wish your guildies a GG for the night.

Now I understand that the fortifications are there simply to discourage the attackers from wanting to take the towers, but from a perspective of a commander who simply wants to fight enemies AND take towers, this is greatly demoralizing. With the number of players increasingly growing in fear to come out and fight the forces on the ground, the cycle of fear of being able to do anything has caused great commanders to leave the game. A very well known guild tagged by [SEAL] and owned by Phat Seal has recently gone away, as well as to name a few called [DAWN] and even [sekz] have just gone AWOL because people aren’t willing to step out of their comfort zones and fight back anymore. You know back when I was in SEAL, we actually like to go into outnumbered fights knowing we were going to die, but we liked it because we wanted the enemy to take us out or at least at minimum take us out. While in Blackgate I and many others always appreciated those enemy guilds that came out from other servers and just tried to take us out in open field. And when they did we didn’t cry about it, we were always happy to take up a challenge!

There are a few commanders from a few guilds in the NA timezone that keep commanding in WvW but even they are apprehensive and waiting for blobs of people to come out and fight. And with the added features of structures becoming more and more powerful, things are demoralizing for the few commanders left. Mind you back when the Desert Borderlands came out; things were a little better I suppose, the only problem that WvW had was that they were too big to play in. Anet’s addition to it fix it by making shortcuts slightly fixed the scenario, but the problem was that it took too long to get to the enemy.

Overall this is just my two cents, disagree or agree, I don’t care, but in the end the reality is that all the sieging and all the tower holing and all the people being too scared to fight back, is going to destroy the game mode for all the other servers. If you reply to this post and I find it interestingly enough to add on to, I may respond, but just as it is; I feel like pretty soon I wont be playing in the very beloved game mode of WvW anymore. The only way this can be fixed in my opinion would be to remove the fortifications from structures, and allow the players to be able to have a higher chance to force the enemy out of hiding.

1 You reap what you sow, BG is overstacked relative to other servers therefore using siege is the only option if other servers are outnumbered by your blobs.
2. Blame your former ONS commander for bringing YB up to kitten to a certain extent as well.

DAWN went to BDO so they don’t play anymore I think.

I think Sekz moved to SoS or GoM or some other server.

Can’t really blame DAWN for quitting WvW though since OCX is ded in all tiers right now with like maybe 4 guilds on all NA servers combined. There’s literally not enough OCX pop to even populate 3 servers now so that’s like rip rip rip.

Yes Sekz is on either of those servers. Hard to tell which at the moment due to the pairing, and SoS’s OCX is the best! If only our NA hadn’t lost so many of the regulars…

I have a real hard time feeling sorry for BG. The fights aren’t there on T1 because BG wvw players massively outnumbers the other wvw’ers on servers on T1. It has nothing to do with fortifications, and everything to do with sheer numbers and the blob mentality that most BG players have. (Not all…there are still a few good fights to be had here and there).

On my other account, where I play on FA…..yea, we might get beat overall during the week, but there are usually lots of good fights to be had…..because the numbers of the wvw players on the servers is closer. And because of that, there is also a lot more variety in the fights that one finds. And fortifications are very similar there.

You’ll only get more fights on BG if the wvw player numbers on the servers in T1 get more even. And that is only going to happen when more BG wvw’ers transfer to other servers. Until then, enjoy the battlefield that you have created.

And yea, me and some of my other guildies from Kaineng still come out to fight, despite the overwhelming odds.

Come to FA bud, #outnumbered buff 90% of the time and fighters who ain’t scared.

RodOfDeath.5247:

Come to FA bud, #outnumbered buff 90% of the time and fighters who ain’t scared.

Agreed….FA is a ton of fun.

How about create an account on every open server and play whichever has the most fights,

and

Winning?

I read it all since you managed to put your wall of text into paragraphs.

But I don’t think you quite understand why the enemy no longer wants to fight you, and it’s not the structures and upgrades that’s the problem. When you constantly go at your enemy with more numbers it will get to a point when they will just sit it out and wait for you to get bored. They will sit on their siege and wait for you to either get bored and move on, or whittle your numbers down enough to attack you with greater numbers. It’s always a numbers game.

T1 had a balance for years, when it was BG/JQ/TC, but after the T1 break and movement between YB TC JQ, then the links happened and BG woke up and apparently are stacked like it was year one, it’s clear T1 isn’t balanced anymore. I don’t think there’s a single server that wants to face BG anymore. The reality is BG needs to shed some weight and get itself closer in balance with the servers around it.

I don’t blame BG at all for the WvW issues.

BG is hands down the most coordinated united server in the game. Players not able to find that level of coordination that they tried to obtain on other servers due to the players on those servers being unwilling to cooperate flocked to BG due to this in search of being able to play the way they enjoyed.

Most who went to BG didn’t just go to " bandwagon" they were looking for an organized and united community that they didn’t have to deal with not being able to find people to cooperate to play. On many servers when they tried to unite the server, it failed miserably so they finally gave up and left in search of that organization.

The problem is of course , instead of other servers stepping up to the plate and following BG’s lead and “upping” their organization and uniting to be able to compete, the guilds bickered and argued until they ran each other off and those seeking organization fled to BG as well making the remaining servers even less organised than before.

Guilds and individuals want the whole server to pitch in and help and no one wants to have to be the one to " carry" the server or to have to pay for everything to support the server on their own. When they are not getting the support they need from their server, they often leave to other servers in search for that help so they don’t feel pressured to have to pull over time and pay more than everyone else or they will not even be able to raid/ play / maintain tier to enjoy the level of fights and competition they do not have at the lower tiers. They search for servers that have players willing to help and are organized so they do not have to do everything themselves and actually have a team supporting them. BG of course offered this more than any other server so it grew and grew..

Anet allowed it to keep growing while also allowing the other servers to keep shrinking and did nothing to help solve the problems that were making these players want to leave server in the first place. Everything needed to be the best in WvW is still not easily obtainable just by playing WvW and as long as that is the case players will always flock to servers that have the best financial benefit for their guild to raid. Anet did not address self sufficiency of WvW, increasing benefit for server cooperation or adding any measures in place to deter non participation. In Gw1, PvP teams could vote out members, in GW2 WvW opponents can queue up maps intentionally to prevent them from being able to get people on the map and there is nothing done to stop it. People can log into WvW and do nothing taking up a space that someone who would actually do something could be using. This creates a very hostile environment even from teammates rather than uniting a server.

BG’s abundant resources made it easier on all guilds running since they didn’t have to pay for all siege used on all maps alone, they had ample resources to recruit for their guilds to grow and be able to maintain guild upgrades to be able to claim and buff everything on the map, there was always the best banners, food and utilities made available for the guilds that play and plenty of people willing to siege up keeps, scout and defend. This makes it easier on every guild running.

BG is just a victim of it’s own success. No, they do not deserve to be punished for being the most coordinated and united server in the game. Anet instead should put measures in place to make that easier for other servers to be able to do as well. Locking people where they are unhappy isn’t the answer to that however, it is to improve their satisfaction instead so they don’t all have to leave to the same server to be able to enjoy the game mode.

Xenesis.6389:

I read it all since you managed to put your wall of text into paragraphs.

But I don’t think you quite understand why the enemy no longer wants to fight you, and it’s not the structures and upgrades that’s the problem. When you constantly go at your enemy with more numbers it will get to a point when they will just sit it out and wait for you to get bored. They will sit on their siege and wait for you to either get bored and move on, or whittle your numbers down enough to attack you with greater numbers. It’s always a numbers game.

T1 had a balance for years, when it was BG/JQ/TC, but after the T1 break and movement between YB TC JQ, then the links happened and BG woke up and apparently are stacked like it was year one, it’s clear T1 isn’t balanced anymore. I don’t think there’s a single server that wants to face BG anymore. The reality is BG needs to shed some weight and get itself closer in balance with the servers around it.

That isn’t all of what actually happened. YB moving up made many leave T1 and the game all together because it showcased the worst possible mechanic in WvW:

• DO NOT ENGAGE THE ENEMY.
• If you get caught by the enemy, do not fight. Die as fast as you can.
• Run and only PvD empty structures while enemy is busy elsewhere.
• Siege all structures as soon as you cap it according to proper siege placement ( every piece of siege is countered by more siege. AKA: AC is covered by bali , cat, trebs and more AC all covered by shield gens.)
• If structure gets attacked , zerg responds and does not engage enemy outside. All of zerg runs inside and gets on siege… Even if it is 5 people.
• if zerg sees enemy on field, DO NOT ATTACK. Run into nearest structure and get on siege fast.

• Do this and WIN!!!!

SO BG and JQ ran off and just fought each other for a while until they got bored while the gamemode was hemorrhaging players.
At the same time.. every tier was hemorrhaging players due to HoT fallout, players started leaving servers in search of organized servers, in search of having players to play with and against. So many guilds left the game all at once, leaving random players who still wanted to play in search of something better and MANY of them wound up on BG.

When news came that Anet was making changes, it lit up social media and players let all their friends know " hey come back things are going to be better" and so the players did come back,., just now so many were now on BG due to that being the most organized, coordinated server where they had people to play with and against. when everywhere else was losing too much population.

Getting the first revamped Tequalt kill and winning the first tournament didn’t help the bandwagon to the server? They were probably even the first ones to create a council to buy guilds over for the server. Even my small havoc guild was invited to move there.

BG has no doubt been very organized and they have many players loyal to the server which has kept them intact, but yeah I’m sure a great many went there to be on the “winning” server too. Where even if they were losing it wouldn’t be a bad week.

lil devils x.6071:

That isn’t all of what actually happened.

I didn’t exactly want to write a novel of everything that has happened, just skimmed the time from a stable to an unstable T1.

P.S I was in that YB hell in T2 while I was on SoS, when it came to a point where no guild wanted to bother with YB, even holding our hills on our bl for days, hell we had to rely on friends from FA to help us break YB stuff.

Edit: apparently T 1 together is a kitten word here.

@Nusku

1. Just before linkings BG blew up and there are not any server linkings right now that can even challenge you with ET. Nobody wants to fight hard because there is little point when players know they will get crushed in the end.

2. There is no “fighting” code of honor here… There are game rules to follow and tools players are given to use. I’ve been into pvp modes for a loooooong time and I always see silly complaints similar to stuff like we have here with the “using seige on field is for noobs”, “running behind walls and using structure is for weak nubs”, “2 servers attacked us QQ unfair”… This is a competitive mode and you use all means necessary within the game rules to win.

I’ll read the rest later, but everyone here knows BG/ET is unmatched right now and they are reading your post saying “oh poor you” and rolling their eyes. Yeah your guilds are bored and want to bail, they have zero challenge right now.

Yeah, wvw is not doing well as a whole, but to sit on BG and complaning right now is just silly.

Xenesis.6389:

lil devils x.6071:

That isn’t all of what actually happened.

I didn’t exactly want to wrote a novel of everything that has happened, just skimmed the time from a stable to an unstable T1.

P.S I was in that YB hell in T2 while I was on SoS, when it came to a point where no guild wanted to bother with YB, even holding our hills on our bl for days, hell we had to rely on friends from FA to help us break YB stuff.

Edit: apparently T 1 together is a kitten word here.

Yea I noticed the whole kitten thing too a while back. LOL

Yea, YB was known for this back when they were in T4 and as long as that remains a game mechanic to win it is always a problem. It highlights much of what is wrong with the game mode. rewarding PvD is what causes that and that still isn’t being addressed.

Most players on other servers already realized that playing that way made the game suck and was no fun so they would not play like that. YB went and made that " THE way to play" even going as far as to post nonsense on their forum home page about " fight guilds not welcome here" way back when.

BG became a PvE hub in the beginning and the place to go for all things PvE before the mega server happened and yes that ballooned them as well, but even after Anet took the PvE populations out of the count, BG kept growing as players were seeking refuge from the issues plaguing other servers.

lil devils x.6071:

That isn’t all of what actually happened. YB moving up made many leave T1 and the game all together because it showcased the worst possible mechanic in WvW:

• DO NOT ENGAGE THE ENEMY.
• If you get caught by the enemy, do not fight. Die as fast as you can.
• Run and only PvD empty structures while enemy is busy elsewhere.

As an addendum to that point target times when enemy doesn’t have many players, wake up and login no matter what the time and PvD.

Its such kittenous play style and to what end? Nothing, it doesn’t gain YB anything.

Swagger.1459:

@Nusku

1. Just before linkings BG blew up and there are not any server linkings right now that can even challenge you with ET. Nobody wants to fight hard because there is little point when players know they will get crushed in the end.

2. There is no “fighting” code of honor here… There are game rules to follow and tools players are given to use. I’ve been into pvp modes for a loooooong time and I always see silly complaints similar to stuff like we have here with the “using seige on field is for noobs”, “run behind walls and use structure for tactical cover is for weak nubs”, “2 servers attacked us QQ unfair”… This is a competitive mode and you use all means necessary within the game rules to win.

I’ll read the rest later, but everyone here knows BG/ET is unmatched right now and they are reading your post saying “oh poor you” and rolling their eyes. Yeah your guilds are bored and want to bail, they have zero challenge right now.

Yeah, wvw is not doing well as a whole, but to sit on BG and complaning right now is just silly.

I think you misunderstand. It isn’t YB using the worst mechanic in the game to win that was the problem, it was it being a mechanic to win at all that was the problem. They have to take away that as a win option to actually solve the problem long term. You see , no matter what Tier YB was in when they used that mechanic, everyone considered that toxic, not just one server or group of players.

BG blew up just before linkings due to players seeking coordinated servers where they didn’t have to do everything. No one wants to be the players/ guild that have to do all the work themselves, they want server help to get things done. BG is the best server to find that is why they went there.

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

@Nusku

1. Just before linkings BG blew up and there are not any server linkings right now that can even challenge you with ET. Nobody wants to fight hard because there is little point when players know they will get crushed in the end.

2. There is no “fighting” code of honor here… There are game rules to follow and tools players are given to use. I’ve been into pvp modes for a loooooong time and I always see silly complaints similar to stuff like we have here with the “using seige on field is for noobs”, “run behind walls and use structure for tactical cover is for weak nubs”, “2 servers attacked us QQ unfair”… This is a competitive mode and you use all means necessary within the game rules to win.

I’ll read the rest later, but everyone here knows BG/ET is unmatched right now and they are reading your post saying “oh poor you” and rolling their eyes. Yeah your guilds are bored and want to bail, they have zero challenge right now.

Yeah, wvw is not doing well as a whole, but to sit on BG and complaning right now is just silly.

I think you misunderstand. It isn’t YB using the worst mechanic in the game to win that was the problem, it was it being a mechanic to win at all that was the problem. They have to take away that as a win option to actually solve the problem long term. You see , no matter what Tier YB was in when they used that mechanic, everyone considered that toxic, not just one server or group of players.

BG blew up just before linkings due to players seeking coordinated servers where they didn’t have to do everything. No one wants to be the players/ guild that have to do all the work themselves, they want server help to get things done. BG is the best server to find that is why they went there.

What are you talking about YB for?

What’s toxic? Using all tools/seige/structures/terrain… provided by game design? That’s not toxic, that’s called smart and tactical gameplay.

It’s obvious players coordinated on BG to stack up and win, and with ET they are unmatched. Also, populations are unbalanced so hopefully the new linkings are better all around. If not, expect 2 months of poor match ups and many unhappy players.

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

Are there any tiers left with action like there was after the first couple weeks of the link up? Is there any way for smart people to stack and even out the coverage on at least one tier matchup so we can all jump in and have the non stop fights and insanity with relatively even match ups again?

I would pay money…

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

Reh.5986:

Are there any tiers left with action like there was after the first couple weeks of the link up? Is there any way for smart people to stack and even out the coverage on at least one tier matchup so we can all jump in and have the non stop fights and insanity with relatively even match ups again?

I would pay money…

Not in NA servers. EU seems to be having better luck though.
http://mos.millenium.org/eu

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

Yeah, stack to win.

Blame the devs for all wvw complaints please. Players are just playing through this mess and trying to have some fun.

Dear Blackgate. From Yaks Bend. If you didn’t try to kitten jam every possible fight with two separate forces that are equal in size to ours. We might actually want to fight you.

I know the people I run with absolutely LOVE even number fights. But after we wipe you once or twice. You always ALWAYS come back with a second zerg to back you up. Every single time.

It’s pretty easy to hate on BG and #stackedgate but lets face it if BG does ‘die’ the people will be quitting and not spreading out to balance tiers which we all know is never gonna happen.

BG and to a degree TC are the last T1 servers with actual players around the clock (mostly) and rather than cheering on for BG to destack/die players should be more concerned with how the other servers don’t have enough coverage to match BG.

I’m on BG and quite frankly the queues are not really that intense. It’s true BG has more people than YB/TC but at the same time the queues aren’t on an astronomical level around the clock. Gone are the days of those queues and they’ll probably never be back.

RIP WvW.

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

Yeah, stack to win.

Blame the devs for all wvw complaints please. Players are just playing through this mess and have some fun.

Um no, coordination isn’t necessarily related to player numbers or stacking. Wanting to be on servers where players are willing to help and work together =\= stacking to win. In BG’s case they were victim to lack of other servers being able to coordinate as well as they did. I was on JQ, I saw how well BG was able to coordinate their efforts and they deserve props for that, even when their numbers dropped and they were dropping to T2. That is also why when JQ had “coordination issues” some JQ players went to BG for that very reason.

Coordination allows you to hold your own even when massively outnumbered. BG often did that even when their PvE Blobs were in hibernation. They get credit where Credit is due. ( I don’t play on BG btw) My perspective is from one gained from fighting against them for a long time. They were just the most organized, united and coordinated server in the game. I LIKE fighting against that because it increases the challenge.

Not here to talk trash or start anything, just wanted to say my perspective is very different from yours as a TC player.

In my eyes blackgate is a problem. The server is way too fat. Call it ogranzied, or what ever you want the fact of the matter is the constant omni or double blob that is twice our size is boring to fight. You blob so we have to blob, and we almost never have numbers to be even remotely close and if we do come close a second group comes out from around the corner. From there our only options are to respawn and hide being siege, or aimless feed you guys bags, and to be honest neither are enjoyable. Personally I prefer to roam small scale and keep your blobs guessing where our people actually are but that is just me.

In my eyes Blackgate is frankly a ktrain that runs on sheer constant numbers. It’s well known that no other server has as much coverage or players on it. Yes you guys are organized, but to be frank you outnumber us for 18 hours of the day every day. There is no way were coming close in that kind of match up. With th current structure of wvw blackgate needs to go a very large diet.

I do agree with the OP tho fights are what make wvw fun. However, this non sense about running away, you make it out that blackgate almost never runs, I see it all the time, there is lots of people that run to other groups, into towers, or siege and can’t fight unless they outnumber their opponents on black gate( I see it all the time roaming). I will reiterate again blackgate is not the only server that has players guilty of doing this; were totally guilty of it too. YB again isnt the only server that hides behind siege either. I’ve seen us all hide behind it and yes I agree with you at times it makes wvw slow paced and boring. The fact of the matter people don’t like being farmed as someone elses bag, that isnt new news and when they are they quit because its not enjoyable.

And that is exactly what a match up with black is; not enjoyable.

fishball.7204:

It’s pretty easy to hate on BG and #stackedgate but lets face it if BG does ‘die’ the people will be quitting and not spreading out to balance tiers which we all know is never gonna happen.

They’re not even willing to spread out right now, so makes no difference if they leave instead. All the servers around them have already had guilds move around to take them off of t1 population status. Less people will be playing but at least the 800lb gorilla won’t be around.

Xenesis.6389:

fishball.7204:

It’s pretty easy to hate on BG and #stackedgate but lets face it if BG does ‘die’ the people will be quitting and not spreading out to balance tiers which we all know is never gonna happen.

They’re not even willing to spread out right now, so makes no difference if they leave instead. All the servers around them have already had guilds move around to take them off of t1 population status. Less people will be playing but at least the 800lb gorilla won’t be around.

The reason they wont spread out is due to the environments on many of the other servers. Some are outright toxic. If they have to spend much more money to play WvW, pull overtime to be able to maintain tier, and be on maps filled with players that tell them to kitten off when they make calls or ask for help why would they want to leave a server those issues are solved to go to one that is just a big headache to deal with?
There is nothing being done to make the other servers better environments to move to.

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

Yeah, stack to win.

Blame the devs for all wvw complaints please. Players are just playing through this mess and have some fun.

Um no, coordination isn’t necessarily related to player numbers or stacking. Wanting to be on servers where players are willing to help and work together =\= stacking to win. In BG’s case they were victim to lack of other servers being able to coordinate as well as they did. I was on JQ, I saw how well BG was able to coordinate their efforts and they deserve props for that, even when their numbers dropped and they were dropping to T2. That is also why when JQ had “coordination issues” some JQ players went to BG for that very reason.

Coordination allows you to hold your own even when massively outnumbered. BG often did that even when their PvE Blobs were in hibernation. They get credit where Credit is due. ( I don’t play on BG btw) My perspective is from one gained from fighting against them for a long time.

Sure, all servers have their talented groups. You may spin doctor if you wish my friend, but most players want the best chances to win so let’s not confuse that with anything else.

I’m honestly not going to drag out a debate with anyone who views using the “tools” coded into the game as “toxic” and that sees playing within rule sets is somehow wrong…

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

Yeah, stack to win.

Blame the devs for all wvw complaints please. Players are just playing through this mess and have some fun.

Um no, coordination isn’t necessarily related to player numbers or stacking. Wanting to be on servers where players are willing to help and work together =\= stacking to win. In BG’s case they were victim to lack of other servers being able to coordinate as well as they did. I was on JQ, I saw how well BG was able to coordinate their efforts and they deserve props for that, even when their numbers dropped and they were dropping to T2. That is also why when JQ had “coordination issues” some JQ players went to BG for that very reason.

Coordination allows you to hold your own even when massively outnumbered. BG often did that even when their PvE Blobs were in hibernation. They get credit where Credit is due. ( I don’t play on BG btw) My perspective is from one gained from fighting against them for a long time.

Sure, all servers have their talented groups. You may spin doctor if you wish my friend, but most players want the best chances to win so let’s not confuse that with anything else.

I’m honestly not going to drag out a debate with anyone who views using the “tools” coded into the game as “toxic” and that sees playing within rule sets is somehow wrong…

I am not confusing that, the reason we left JQ was due to server cooperation. We were assured by the people where we were going that they had numerous guilds willing to work with us is why we moved. The ONLY reason we would not go to BG is they were stacked. We are not the only guild looking for the same thing. Just not all guilds are given offers like we were nor have the same opportunities, so they go where it is guaranteed.

If the " tools" coded into the game try to prevent PvP in a PvP game mode, those coming to the PvP game mode for PvP game play of course are going to view those as toxic.

Not every server is like that, but yes any that have a large number of “fight guilds” tend to turn into that, which eventually was a problem on SoS.

In any case, if BG doesn’t get smaller I doubt the situation will get better, unless the devs relink TC YB JQ or DB to be big enough to take BG on, which I doubt so enjoy the queues and continue to steamrolling opponents.

Xenesis.6389:

Not every server is like that, but yes any that have a large number of “fight guilds” tend to turn into that, which eventually was a problem on SoS.

In any case, if BG doesn’t get smaller I doubt the situation will get better, unless the devs relink TC YB JQ or DB to be big enough to take BG on, which I doubt so enjoy the queues and continue to steamrolling opponents.

I suggested a JQ/MAG/IOJ link.. that would do the trick. XD

I respect BG. I want to fight BG because it is challenging and fun.

I find it amusing that TS wants a group of 5 defenders coming out to face a 70+ zerg attacking. In fact there are times these 5 defenders have to defend their keep when BG has 6 Omegas and a zerg banging on their gates.

It’s no wonder YB loses their keep everyday and even TC at times. I would dare say the only server that dares fight BG on their own terms would be TC despite the odds stacked against them bringing the fight to BG’s doorsteps.

The above scenarios are in EBG from my experience, although it’s probably the same story in the BL’s.

But…

He got a point with upgrade. Fighting doors and walls is not fun and auto upgrade + fortified gate + guild upgrade made it worse. All those things are just getting in the way of the fun : which is fighting each other.

I would rather have the following upgrade system :

Tier 0 : wooden wall & no gate
Tier 1 : wooden wall & wooden gate
Tier 2 : reinforce wall & wooden gate
Tier 3 : reinforce wall & reinforce gate

Think I’m crazy with the “no gate” part for the first tier?

fishball.7204:

It’s pretty easy to hate on BG and #stackedgate but lets face it if BG does ‘die’ the people will be quitting and not spreading out to balance tiers which we all know is never gonna happen.

BG and to a degree TC are the last T1 servers with actual players around the clock (mostly) and rather than cheering on for BG to destack/die players should be more concerned with how the other servers don’t have enough coverage to match BG.

That won’t change without more drastic action, so BG will remain stacked, although we will see what happens when the link is changed. I would actually hope BG doesn’t get linked and 1 set of servers is 3 servers.

Its not just players leaving BG and the game which is a potential problem its players leaving any server including those from TC and YB who are sick of BG. Its why I find the attitude of those who want servers to die (as is frequently seen on the salt forum) so shortsighted, servers die people will leave the game leaving it in a worse state.

lil devils x.6071:

The reason they wont spread out is due to the environments on many of the other servers. Some are outright toxic.

The reason they won’t spread out is that they are winning pure and simple.

shrek.1046:

fishball.7204:

It’s pretty easy to hate on BG and #stackedgate but lets face it if BG does ‘die’ the people will be quitting and not spreading out to balance tiers which we all know is never gonna happen.

BG and to a degree TC are the last T1 servers with actual players around the clock (mostly) and rather than cheering on for BG to destack/die players should be more concerned with how the other servers don’t have enough coverage to match BG.

That won’t change without more drastic action, so BG will remain stacked, although we will see what happens when the link is changed. I would actually hope BG doesn’t get linked and 1 set of servers is 3 servers.

Its not just players leaving BG and the game which is a potential problem its players leaving any server including those from TC and YB who are sick of BG. Its why I find the attitude of those who want servers to die (as is frequently seen on the salt forum) so shortsighted, servers die people will leave the game leaving it in a worse state.

lil devils x.6071:

The reason they wont spread out is due to the environments on many of the other servers. Some are outright toxic.

The reason they won’t spread out is that they are winning pure and simple.

Not exactly, even when they were not winning they weren’t spreading out either. They dropped to T2 at one point if you don’t remember. The current state was caused by people migrating there and away from other environments. They could have moved to JQ at the time we were winning. JQ didn’t get a mass migration when we were winning. We actually chose to stop winning and stood down as was stated in forums in advance.

I think many people whining about players leaving their server need to take a good hard look at what on their servers that made people leave. They may not be leaving for why you “think” they are. Why would we leave a winning server to a non stacked server eh?

shrek.1046:

fishball.7204:

It’s pretty easy to hate on BG and #stackedgate but lets face it if BG does ‘die’ the people will be quitting and not spreading out to balance tiers which we all know is never gonna happen.

BG and to a degree TC are the last T1 servers with actual players around the clock (mostly) and rather than cheering on for BG to destack/die players should be more concerned with how the other servers don’t have enough coverage to match BG.

That won’t change without more drastic action, so BG will remain stacked, although we will see what happens when the link is changed. I would actually hope BG doesn’t get linked and 1 set of servers is 3 servers.

Its not just players leaving BG and the game which is a potential problem its players leaving any server including those from TC and YB who are sick of BG. Its why I find the attitude of those who want servers to die (as is frequently seen on the salt forum) so shortsighted, servers die people will leave the game leaving it in a worse state.

lil devils x.6071:

The reason they wont spread out is due to the environments on many of the other servers. Some are outright toxic.

The reason they won’t spread out is that they are winning pure and simple.

and already have free / 10$ accounts on other servers so no need to move….. The dormant ‘wvw’ accounts that all woke-up around the patch still located on BG even before the linking is a part of the problem that anet didn’t really address with server status.

lil devils x.6071:

Not exactly, even when they were not winning they weren’t spreading out either.

Because they weren’t playing or just playing PvE, BG has always had this PvX population that would only play WvW when it was worth it.

I see a lot of stupid stuff in our matchup. Dropping acs and balis open field in even numbered fights. Trebbing and cataing our spawn when we bother to come out and fight against superior numbers of boon stacking, condi throwing cheese builds vs randoms. (Really we come out to fight even in lousy odds and we have to do it under cat knockback, ACs and perma treb poison? wth. We could easily have done something else but we wanted to dance. What part of that did you not get?)

People whine about siege wars and running from fights and then do stupid stuff that makes the fights useless for the other side anyway. Use your brain. If you want good fights show a little respect for the fight.

You might as well be the condi Mesmer or thief always crying in pm because people just walk away.

If you want good fights show a little class. If you’re just out to feed your ego against inferior numbers then enjoy beating those doors down. You get the score and you’re welcome to it. If objectives don’t get good fights they are worthless anyway.

shrek.1046:

lil devils x.6071:

Not exactly, even when they were not winning they weren’t spreading out either.

Because they weren’t playing or just playing PvE, BG has always had this PvX population that would only play WvW when it was worth it.

Yes, BG always has had a PvX population, but they don’t actually play much WvW. They are weekend warriors, then the rest of the week they didn’t play WvW.

It may have something to do with the people I know who transferred there because there was no organization on their server as well.. People have been banging on their door to get in for quite some time, and not because they were " winning". LOL

The only reason GW2 WvW is still alive is cause there isn’t any alternative to it on the market. Which is sad on a whole new level since WvW in GW2 is utterly broken, dumbed down, forgotten for far too long and heading in the wrong direction with every patch.

Gudradain.3892:

But…

He got a point with upgrade. Fighting doors and walls is not fun and auto upgrade + fortified gate + guild upgrade made it worse. All those things are just getting in the way of the fun : which is fighting each other.

I would rather have the following upgrade system :

Tier 0 : wooden wall & no gate
Tier 1 : wooden wall & wooden gate
Tier 2 : reinforce wall & wooden gate
Tier 3 : reinforce wall & reinforce gate

Think I’m crazy with the “no gate” part for the first tier?

Would be much better (and more logical) to simply not repair when capped. Increase the amount of sups given by camps to compensate and let players fix T0 objectives themselves… This would mean it’s possible for the server that lost an objective to try to return and fight for it again before it’s closed.

Blobgate has always been a blob server. Everyone is bored of their 70v20 “fighting” style. Even before pairings. If you think siege is toxic, take a look at the results of that toxic blob dump. Even with combined servers it’s as dead as when servers were solo. That’s sad.

hobotnicax.7918:

The only reason GW2 WvW is still alive is cause there isn’t any alternative to it on the market. Which is sad on a whole new level since WvW in GW2 is utterly broken, dumbed down, forgotten for far too long and heading in the wrong direction with every patch.

And there will be, and Anet is underestimating things right now by not making stronger investments to wvw.

What’s worse is Anet knows this as well. Maybe they are being their secretive self and will drop some miracle wvw update with the next xpac, but I doubt that will happen.

Wait, isn’t TC in Tier 1 to fight BG? All this transfering to TC happened just for this cause and now they hide?

too scare to fight? heh transfer to another server if u really care about WvW or are u just scare to go somewhere else, big post but too scare to do anything?

These threads have been being made basically since Gw2’s inception. I’m sure if I dug hard enough I could find a few dozen.

WvW is not dying. It’s been through worse.

Treating others the way you would like to be treated is key. It’s not about honor or a sub set of personal values, it’s about making the game mode fun for everyone so you can all have those epic fights where you pat each other on the backs and say “good game!” If you’re always spawn camping, roaming in large gank groups that emote and pester solos or acting like hungry wolves trying to crack open a tower filled with a zerg half the size of yours it just becomes unfun for both sides. You can only farm easy bags for so long before it becomes boring and it gets lame a lot faster for the ones being farmed.

Learn to understand that all servers, maybe with the exception of BG, have more than a few hours during the day where they’re heavily outnumbered. During those hours you can PPT all you like but farming people off the map is just going to crush their spirits.

You can see all of this happen in EOTM at a much faster pace. It’s WvW on fastforward and you can see the attitudes change as the numbers fluctuate. When I command, if we’re the largest zerg, I don’t harass the smaller zergs until they quit because it’s no fun. I catch them if they’re in our way and when they’re big enough to fight back, either they’ll come to us looking to fight or I’ll test them out to see if they can handle themselves. Then you get commanders who like to spawn camp or defend everything on the map even when they’re clearly far too big for the other sides to fight, then the map dies. Which is exactly what BG is doing to it’s opponents.

Find a happy medium and learn to accept that WvW is never going to be perfectly balanced. Work together with your opponents so that the game can be fun for everyone and have a little grace during the hours your enemies are heavily outnumbered.