Guild Wars 2

The biggest problems with WvW …

1.) culling
2.) it isn’t DAoC RvR

Arena net simply does not care about small mans in WvW. Every single step they take encourages zerging. I just want a dev response as to why they aren’t copying DAoC.

The mindless zergling idiots are still going to play when they get wiped a few times by a small man.

MAYBE… Just maybe they will try to stop sucking.

and don’t say go to sPvP. It isn’t fleshed out enough as a mode to even compete or compare with free mmos right now.

Aeneasx.1589:

The biggest problems with WvW …

1.) culling
2.) it isn’t DAoC RvR

Arena net simply does not care about small mans in WvW. Every single step they take encourages zerging. I just want a dev response as to why they aren’t copying DAoC.

The mindless zergling idiots are still going to play when they get wiped a few times by a small man.

MAYBE… Just maybe they will try to stop sucking.

and don’t say go to sPvP. It isn’t fleshed out enough as a mode to even compete or compare with free mmos right now.

I’m looking for the like button.

This isn’t daoc. Game is built for capturing points, so large #s = quicker captures. how come call of duty isn’t mass effect?

Except in T3 where larger numbers means a 12 hour west keep siege. Hurr.

As much as I loved DAoC and small manning back in the day. This isn’t DAoC, why would they copy it ? Sure borrow some of the good but its silly to think they would carbon copy. I’m also pretty sure They won’t respond to you demanding a response.

Theres plenty of threads outlining what people would like to see to help enhance more then just zerg warfare, I’m sure they have read them, I’m sure they have also taken some of it into consideration. Whether they implement it or not is another story.

Lets wait and see what this mystery patch has for WvW first.

Besides if they did copy DAoC, you can say goodbye to your multiple vanish class. Just saying.

It would be nice to at least let the users test some of the ideas we constantly cry about on a PTS.

Small Man teams are fine if that is what you wanna do small man it up. I roam also but really how often does a small 5 man skirmish turn into a 5v8 or whatever because someone comes by and sees there is a fight.

Also the fact that you call people zergling idiots isn’t to good either. You have never been in a zerg ever? You never been with your roaming group saw a group about to take a tower and with the gate down and went inside to help? You have become apart of the zerg.

Zerg = This force is more than that force in numbers.

Really its not going to change it is apart of WvW.

The people that constantly cry about whatever issue is not going to go away because of a PTS. People will still cry about the proposed changes because implemented by Anet on a PTS because they are to lazy to go test on the PTS in the first place.

Just go to Blizzards starcraft 2 PTS forums lol. I know RTS doesn’t = MMO but just in the context of a PTS as a separate entity will not stop people complaining on the forums at all.

You will have people that will still theorycraft with out testing and people that will hope in play 10 minutes and say OMG this is broken here is why. Without detailed testing.

I posted a thread on reddit with 80% or more likes.

All of the changes were from DAoC. I posted the same thing here and got like 1 response.

Aeneasx.1589:

I posted a thread on reddit with 80% or more likes.

All of the changes were from DAoC. I posted the same thing here and got like 1 response.

Link to the reddit thread?

http://www.reddit.com/comments/1549eu

A Game of Zergs.

That is what WvW has become.

Once a server reaches a certain population, and a certain number of organized guilds, everyone goes zerg.

It’s been outlined in countless other threads why, and for those reasons, running one or two big zergs most of the time is the most efficient way to win a map.

All the small guilds we started playing WvW with on Tarnished Coast are pretty much gone. Even the original medium-sized guilds who started with us are beginning to see attrition. Because a zerg is what you need to get things done on a map, they draw in the players.

I hope it can be turned around soon, but I fear it can’t, as the changes would be fairly drastic. But, GW2 probably has about a year’s window until The Elder Scrolls Online launches. Can they get it done in that time?

The post you made in reddit and the post above are not the same. Great ideas in the reddit post, honestly!!! Here it reads that you are a mad third grader whose kitten off third grade isn’t like second grade. Bump your original post (the old one here on the WvW forums). I like your ideas. I dislike the approach with this new post.

CrassBippy.4619:

how come call of duty isn’t mass effect?

Because Mass Effect became Call of Duty.

Your reddit post has a much different tone then this post, that may be the problem.

Some good ideas in there.

Because you can only post suggestions so many times going unheard that a flat out “I don’t want all my friends to quit” post is all you can muster.

Plus iPhones aren’t fun for long posts.

I can get with these ideas. It is wait and see right now though to see what is planned for the big WvW update in February.

For myself I like to roam sometimes I get with my server and join the larger groups it just depends on my mood really. I would like titles that would be enough for me as a player since I just like the fights I encounter either zerg or roaming.

Sure this is going to come across as trolling, but I’m really honestly very confused. I had assumed that DAoC must have been shut down… I did a search today and found out that DAoC is still running and offering RvR. I’m guessing it’s not the same as it once was… Apparently, though, they tried to get sufficient support to fund a return to an earlier version of the game, but couldn’t get support for it. So… Why would anyone expect ANet to change WvWvW to match the DAoC RvR that couldn’t generate enough support to sustain itself?

Sourced from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot

JaironKalach.4938:

Sure this is going to come across as trolling, but I’m really honestly very confused. I had assumed that DAoC must have been shut down… I did a search today and found out that DAoC is still running and offering RvR. I’m guessing it’s not the same as it once was… Apparently, though, they tried to get sufficient support to fund a return to an earlier version of the game, but couldn’t get support for it. So… Why would anyone expect ANet to change WvWvW to match the DAoC RvR that couldn’t generate enough support to sustain itself?

Sourced from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot

Ancient engine, ancient controls, but great fundamental RvR structure and ideas.

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

I wouldn’t say it didn’t get support because the game failed, its 12 years old … it would be hard for any game (especially one governed by EA for the last few years) that is that old to get support.

The game would basically need to be remade.

It would be no different then expecting UO to get full support, both games were great, but they are ancient in terms of MMO’s now.

I don’t have a prob with zerging, but I think it would be neat if the commander icons could have 20-25 max in a squad. Then even if they have their tag on, if you are not on their squad you can’t see their icon on the map. This will cause the commanders to work with the map communication and really earn their tag. Commanders without a squad are just people that felt the need to spend 100g

I wish they had guild only commander tags that only guildies could see. =D
Maybe make it cost a ton of influence or something.

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Remove commander, refund the 100 gold. Give us titles and structure that we earn. Allow guild alliances and alliance chat… A system where dude Ron spends 100 g to gather 40 people on a map an Zerg a tower is….

Well, its just plain bad design decisions stacked on top of one another.

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Thrumdi.9216:

A Game of Zergs.

That is what WvW has become.

Once a server reaches a certain population, and a certain number of organized guilds, everyone goes zerg.

It’s been outlined in countless other threads why, and for those reasons, running one or two big zergs most of the time is the most efficient way to win a map.

All the small guilds we started playing WvW with on Tarnished Coast are pretty much gone. Even the original medium-sized guilds who started with us are beginning to see attrition. Because a zerg is what you need to get things done on a map, they draw in the players.

I hope it can be turned around soon, but I fear it can’t, as the changes would be fairly drastic. But, GW2 probably has about a year’s window until The Elder Scrolls Online launches. Can they get it done in that time?

I dunno…. ESO’s closed beta is out. Think GW2 has even less time than that to get WvW figured out. Add proper progression, fix zerg based mechanics like forever combat rez invincibility for noobs, etc, etc.

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

If you’re not a good Pvper then yes. Guild wars 1 was much better about rewarding skilled play. This game is amazing in WvW if you suck at Pvp in general.

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

You should if the number of people who also like what you like isn’t big enough to be largely self-sustaining. At least then you have a chance to still enjoy it. Otherwise it’ll all fall to pieces real quick.

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

If you’re not a good Pvper then yes. Guild wars 1 was much better about rewarding skilled play. This game is amazing in WvW if you suck at Pvp in general.

It doesn’t have to be either/or.

Jairon has raised these concerns in other threads, and I believe they were addressed. The rational argument is allow different types of play, not eliminate the one you don’t like.

At the moment, zerg-play overwhelms all else. WvW needs to get to a place where solo, small group (<10), mid-group and zerg are viable forms of play. There are some niches where the others can operate (e.g. small Thief gank squad), but overall it’s the zerg or bust.

Aeneasx.1589:

If you’re not a good Pvper then yes. Guild wars 1 was much better about rewarding skilled play. This game is amazing in WvW if you suck at Pvp in general.

Yeah, so this is what the argument always comes down to… “I’m a good PvPer, you suck, so the game should cater to me, because I have skills and you don’t.” I’ll admit I suck, but it doesn’t make my $60 or the $60 of all the other people like me any less valuable. In fact, I’m willing to bet that all of those people you look down your nose at are the people who have funded the development of this game, and are the ones who will keep it going for years to come. I would recommend instead of just sneering at us and telling us how things should be your way, because you have skills, that you try to work with us to keep us happy, in addition to trying to find a way that you can get some of your DaoC RvR experience. And no, trying to do that doesn’t include insulting us, telling us L2P, holding yourself above us, or using the term mindless zergling.

Thrumdi.9216:

It doesn’t have to be either/or.

Jairon has raised these concerns in other threads, and I believe they were addressed. The rational argument is allow different types of play, not eliminate the one you don’t like.

At the moment, zerg-play overwhelms all else. WvW needs to get to a place where solo, small group (<10), mid-group and zerg are viable forms of play. There are some niches where the others can operate (e.g. small Thief gank squad), but overall it’s the zerg or bust.

Agreed.

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

If you’re not a good Pvper then yes. Guild wars 1 was much better about rewarding skilled play. This game is amazing in WvW if you suck at Pvp in general.

Yeah, so this is what the argument always comes down to… “I’m a good PvPer, you suck, so the game should cater to me, because I have skills and you don’t.” I’ll admit I suck, but it doesn’t make my $60 or the $60 of all the other people like me any less valuable. In fact, I’m willing to bet that all of those people you look down your nose at are the people who have funded the development of this game, and are the ones who will keep it going for years to come. I would recommend instead of just sneering at us and telling us how things should be your way, because you have skills, that you try to work with us to keep us happy, in addition to trying to find a way that you can get some of your DaoC RvR experience. And no, trying to do that doesn’t include insulting us, telling us L2P, holding yourself above us, or using the term mindless zergling.

You still have a chance, and a better chance in a Zerg. With changes that people are asking for you just won’t ALWAYS be unstoppable just because you have twice as many people.

When our 5-10 players kite your Zerg along and down everyone multiple times and they either get Zerg resed or rally on a pve mob, then something needs to change.

I like your last response a whole lot better than your OP. There’s a discussion to be had there. Most of the changes seem like theirs a way to be reasonable. That said, here is my preference: if my zerg chooses to attack your small man, fine go ahead and wipe us is you’re skilled enough. If, however, your small man is out hunting zergs because you like killing noobs, we’re both invlunerable, in some form.

In the end, I’ve seen enough “skilled PvPers” who like to prove it on the bodies of those of us who already know we need to L2P. So, I believe that giving too much power to the small 5 man will end up pushing the rest of us out. As long as changes are discussed from that perspective, I’ll probably just go back to reading and stop making these ridiculously long-winded posts.

I don’t agree that people who zerg suck, all play styles are viable. To make all play styles viable is the answer.

Take any battle, Scouts have a purpose, small tactical teams have a purpose, mid size forces have a purpose, and of course large scale forces have a purpose.

Having every keep, tower and camp within spitting distance from one another hinders all but zerg warfare. Maps need to be enlarged so people actually have to make decisions and use tactics.

Many people have said it and I believe it is one of the largest issues, its far to easy for a large force to move from point to point in no time to allow for any tactical attacks. The game should be great for all not just some, regardless of what play style we each like.

Attic.1562:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

You should if the number of people who also like what you like isn’t big enough to be largely self-sustaining. At least then you have a chance to still enjoy it. Otherwise it’ll all fall to pieces real quick.

I have to disagree. I just don’t see the die hard PvP player spending $$$ on gems to customize his/her character. That individual doesn’t give a kitten about BLSK’s, keys, minipets or gold tbh. Yet that player expects the game to cater to his/her desires just as equally as the PvE player. WvW is casual PvP plain and simple. Wanting to make it more hardcore will only cause the casual player to avoid it like the plague. Anet needs to potentially rethink and possibly implement their GvG formats they had in GW1. A different area to PvP with a more hardcore mindset is where they need to focus in future updates. Bending WvW out of it’s current state will only discourage both sides from playing it and open up more complaints.

I made this post in a way that would get attention. My original well thought out post got nothing.

Guess what, it’s working, at least people are posting. I think most people are willing to have rational discussion when you get down to it, but most of that stuff gets ignored and buried under troll and whine posts.

Aeneasx.1589:

I made this post in a way that would get attention. My original well thought out post got nothing.

Guess what, it’s working, at least people are posting. I think most people are willing to have rational discussion when you get down to it, but most of that stuff gets ignored and buried under troll and whine posts.

I would have responded to your original post if you had placed it here in the WvW forums

Khanswrath.1032:

Attic.1562:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

You should if the number of people who also like what you like isn’t big enough to be largely self-sustaining. At least then you have a chance to still enjoy it. Otherwise it’ll all fall to pieces real quick.

I have to disagree. I just don’t see the die hard PvP player spending $$$ on gems to customize his/her character. That individual doesn’t give a kitten about BLSK’s, keys, minipets or gold tbh. Yet that player expects the game to cater to his/her desires just as equally as the PvE player. WvW is casual PvP plain and simple. Wanting to make it more hardcore will only cause the casual player to avoid it like the plague. Anet needs to potentially rethink and possibly implement their GvG formats they had in GW1. A different area to PvP with a more hardcore mindset is where they need to focus in future updates. Bending WvW out of it’s current state will only discourage both sides from playing it and open up more complaints.

That is a horrible argument. All of the hardcore pvpers i know bought tons of gems so they could gear out quickly. Not to mention half of the guild has or is close to their legendary.

Nuzt.7894:

Having every keep, tower and camp within spitting distance from one another hinders all but zerg warfare. Maps need to be enlarged so people actually have to make decisions and use tactics.

Many people have said it and I believe it is one of the largest issues, its far to easy for a large force to move from point to point in no time to allow for any tactical attacks. The game should be great for all not just some, regardless of what play style we each like.

They won’t remake the zones. Period. It’s far too expensive resource wise. Very few games ever totally remake zones.

At best they might release new zones at some point in the future alongside the ones we have now, but I wouldn’t bet on them being any bigger. Mike Ferguson is already on record saying that “These are the largest maps we can make in Guild Wars 2.”

Khanswrath.1032:

Attic.1562:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

You should if the number of people who also like what you like isn’t big enough to be largely self-sustaining. At least then you have a chance to still enjoy it. Otherwise it’ll all fall to pieces real quick.

I have to disagree. I just don’t see the die hard PvP player spending $$$ on gems to customize his/her character. That individual doesn’t give a kitten about BLSK’s, keys, minipets or gold tbh. Yet that player expects the game to cater to his/her desires just as equally as the PvE player. WvW is casual PvP plain and simple. Wanting to make it more hardcore will only cause the casual player to avoid it like the plague. Anet needs to potentially rethink and possibly implement their GvG formats they had in GW1. A different area to PvP with a more hardcore mindset is where they need to focus in future updates. Bending WvW out of it’s current state will only discourage both sides from playing it and open up more complaints.

I have spent quite a bit on gems, and I mainly WvW. I think hardcore is the wrong term, making all play styles viable is not hardcore, its smart business practice. Right now Anets mistake is catering to one type of play style in WvW. I don’t mind zerg, I am not so ignorant to believe they should not be allowed to play that way, I even partake in zerging. I don’t see how it would hurt the game to enlarge an spread things out a bit more, you would still need and have zergs, but the other play styles might have a chance at helping their server in a more tactical way.

Aeneasx.1589:

Khanswrath.1032:

Attic.1562:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

You should if the number of people who also like what you like isn’t big enough to be largely self-sustaining. At least then you have a chance to still enjoy it. Otherwise it’ll all fall to pieces real quick.

I have to disagree. I just don’t see the die hard PvP player spending $$$ on gems to customize his/her character. That individual doesn’t give a kitten about BLSK’s, keys, minipets or gold tbh. Yet that player expects the game to cater to his/her desires just as equally as the PvE player. WvW is casual PvP plain and simple. Wanting to make it more hardcore will only cause the casual player to avoid it like the plague. Anet needs to potentially rethink and possibly implement their GvG formats they had in GW1. A different area to PvP with a more hardcore mindset is where they need to focus in future updates. Bending WvW out of it’s current state will only discourage both sides from playing it and open up more complaints.

That is a horrible argument. All of the hardcore pvpers i know bought tons of gems so they could gear out quickly. Not to mention half of the guild has or is close to their legendary.

Maybe this is the problem. You definition of a hardcore pvper and mine are not the same then. My argument is not horrible as I know many hardcore pvpers who laugh at the idea of spending hard earned $$$ on an item that just has a different look.

As a an old DAoC player I totally agree and have brought DAoC up myself a few times. That being said zergs existed in DAoC also unless you were from Hibernia we liked the term Frolic : ) . So zergs ARE NOT THE ISSUE. Yea zergs suck any time your grossly out manned it sucks. So ask yourself why is everyone blaming the zerg?? IMO it’s because the maps are way to small and the small group can’t help trip over the zerg and vice versa. First order of business double triple quadruple these maps and make them interesting. This will allow smaller combat patrol groups and assault teams to operate without a zerg being there in the blink of an eye. So see it’s not that zergs exist it’s that there always a stones throw away from your group large or small. I could go into all the cool things DAoC did with that but it would be too long a post. As I’ve said before Anet learn from your elders!

Problem with making the maps bigger is that I know people who think the maps are big enough or too big. They don’t like having to run far.

So how about this. Make one/some of the maps bigger and more spread out. That way you could choose which size map you want to play on.

Khanswrath.1032:

Attic.1562:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

You should if the number of people who also like what you like isn’t big enough to be largely self-sustaining. At least then you have a chance to still enjoy it. Otherwise it’ll all fall to pieces real quick.

I have to disagree. I just don’t see the die hard PvP player spending $$$ on gems to customize his/her character. That individual doesn’t give a kitten about BLSK’s, keys, minipets or gold tbh. Yet that player expects the game to cater to his/her desires just as equally as the PvE player. WvW is casual PvP plain and simple. Wanting to make it more hardcore will only cause the casual player to avoid it like the plague. Anet needs to potentially rethink and possibly implement their GvG formats they had in GW1. A different area to PvP with a more hardcore mindset is where they need to focus in future updates. Bending WvW out of it’s current state will only discourage both sides from playing it and open up more complaints.

I think you must have read a completely different post than mine. At no point did I utter any mention of “hardcore” or “casual.”

All I said is that it is in Jairon’s best interest to support change, even though he is perfectly content, if the number of people who are also perfectly content is self-sustaining enough to keep the action going for as long as he is planning on playing.

Because if the population is not self-sustaining the entire system will collapse very quickly once the critical mass has faded.

If he believe that the long-term viability of the population is not in question then he shouldn’t support change, but if he doesn’t believe then he should support change. Because in that case change is the only way to avert disaster.

You’re reading into too much stuff.

P.S. Your generalization of how “hardcore PvPers” act is hilariously off. Remember what happens when you assume.

Personally, I spent $45 on Station Cash cards over the holidays for Planetside 2. Literally the only reason I haven’t spent any money on gems is because either a) the offerings are not appealing to me or b) I do not believe the offerings are a good value.

@Johje-Holan-4607 Wow really these maps are to big they bring new meaning to the word lazy (just kidding). Ok well DAoC had a mechanic for that as long as you owned the string of keeps leading into your frontier some keeps allowed you to portal to them. Of course this added the challenge to break the chain of keeps and deprive the enemy of portal capabilities cutting down there response time. Which by the way forced you to coordinate attacks as a single zerg could not keep the world safe from invasion which spread out the combatants.

Attic.1562:

Khanswrath.1032:

Attic.1562:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

You should if the number of people who also like what you like isn’t big enough to be largely self-sustaining. At least then you have a chance to still enjoy it. Otherwise it’ll all fall to pieces real quick.

I have to disagree. I just don’t see the die hard PvP player spending $$$ on gems to customize his/her character. That individual doesn’t give a kitten about BLSK’s, keys, minipets or gold tbh. Yet that player expects the game to cater to his/her desires just as equally as the PvE player. WvW is casual PvP plain and simple. Wanting to make it more hardcore will only cause the casual player to avoid it like the plague. Anet needs to potentially rethink and possibly implement their GvG formats they had in GW1. A different area to PvP with a more hardcore mindset is where they need to focus in future updates. Bending WvW out of it’s current state will only discourage both sides from playing it and open up more complaints.

I think you must have read a completely different post than mine. At no point did I utter any mention of “hardcore” or “casual.”

All I said is that it is in Jairon’s best interest to support change, even though he is perfectly content, if the number of people who are also perfectly content is self-sustaining enough to keep the action going for as long as he is planning on playing.

Because if the population is not self-sustaining the entire system will collapse very quickly once the critical mass has faded.

If he believe that the long-term viability of the population is not in question then he shouldn’t support change, but if he doesn’t believe then he should support change. Because in that case change is the only way to avert disaster.

You’re reading into too much stuff.

P.S. Your generalization of how “hardcore PvPers” act is hilariously off. Remember what happens when you assume.

Personally, I spent $45 on Station Cash cards over the holidays for Planetside 2. Literally the only reason I haven’t spent any money on gems is because either a) the offerings are not appealing to me or b) I do not believe the offerings are a good value.

Yea in reading back the original flow of the posts I do believe I grabbed my soapbox and blended way too many readings of others posts into this misquote. I guess what I was trying to add was changing the game to suit a particular section of player is overall a bad idea. I was assuming something fierce,I will grant you that, but look at ever single post in the forums about any type of change in the gameplay/design and it is filled to the brim with assumptions of how the game “should” be. You have to agree with me that most if not all of the complaints center around the fact that WvW is casual PvP. Most if not all the changes (aside from the culling issues) asked for want skill to shine over numbers. The more Anet starts to lean on skill > numbers the less player base you will find in WvW.

Thrumdi.9216:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

If you’re not a good Pvper then yes. Guild wars 1 was much better about rewarding skilled play. This game is amazing in WvW if you suck at Pvp in general.

It doesn’t have to be either/or.

Jairon has raised these concerns in other threads, and I believe they were addressed. The rational argument is allow different types of play, not eliminate the one you don’t like.

At the moment, zerg-play overwhelms all else. WvW needs to get to a place where solo, small group (<10), mid-group and zerg are viable forms of play. There are some niches where the others can operate (e.g. small Thief gank squad), but overall it’s the zerg or bust.

Nailed it.

That’s why people are asking for gameplay like what DAoC offered. The RvR was great. You could solo, you could duo, you could 8 man, and you could zerg. There was something out there for everyone…… all on one huge map.

The fact one player if skilled could take out 2-3 players was considered awesome at the time. Rarely was there whining about getting classes nerfed (it happened, just not as much as you see it today <warlock>). 3 good players could take out an 8 man and an 8 man could extend a zerg or bomb an afk zerg standing around waiting for their zergfest. Obviously you could easily reverse those outcomes and that’s fine, but that fact remained that you could pretty much run out into the Frontier and find a fight and have a blast doing it.

Part of the problem is the busy lives we lead. We live in an instant gratification world and people want to take that Tower or Keep, right now! There’s not much time for a group of would be defenders to react, which doesn’t promote fighting… it promotes point swapping. So in reality we are left with fighting PvE mobs to PvP. There are no more long sieges.

“There’s no waiting 35 minutes for the boat to come back around from Freeport.” boom I said it

Most people assume they are awesome at the game so it must mean there is something overpowered about the opposing class. Where I would probably ask myself …. what did I do wrong in the fight to lose?

Everyone’s entitled to an opinion and everyone is right about their own. What I think the original poster was trying to do was promote an environment of Fun gameplay for more than just one type of PvP demographic. Zerg is in fact ruling the majority of WvW. Any change to cater to the other options would never take away from the zerg….. you cant stop zerg.

xell.7408:

Thrumdi.9216:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

JaironKalach.4938:

Aeneasx.1589:

Most people shoot down this DAoC stuff without taking into consideration that they might just like it too.

God forbid people want to make guild wars a better game by looking at “the game” that laid some of the best frame work in the genre.

Yeah, but I already know I enjoy WvWvW as is. So why would any sane person risk losing something they enjoy in order to try out something different, because it would make someone they’ve never met happier?

Obviously that “best frame work” is a subjective assessment based on how you enjoy playing a game. Right now, in my limited experience, GW2 has the “best frame work.” My opinion in this matter and yours are equally valid.

Because almost everyone who is good in PvP and doesn’t foolishly Zerg around is leaving the game?

Okay… So I should want to change the game to accommodate a bunch of players who don’t enjoy the game as is, when I do, so that I keep more of those people around, at the expense of potentially not being able to enjoy it myself, and losing the people like myself who enjoy it as is?

If you’re not a good Pvper then yes. Guild wars 1 was much better about rewarding skilled play. This game is amazing in WvW if you suck at Pvp in general.

It doesn’t have to be either/or.

Jairon has raised these concerns in other threads, and I believe they were addressed. The rational argument is allow different types of play, not eliminate the one you don’t like.

At the moment, zerg-play overwhelms all else. WvW needs to get to a place where solo, small group (<10), mid-group and zerg are viable forms of play. There are some niches where the others can operate (e.g. small Thief gank squad), but overall it’s the zerg or bust.

Nailed it.

That’s why people are asking for gameplay like what DAoC offered. The RvR was great. You could solo, you could duo, you could 8 man, and you could zerg. There was something out there for everyone…… all on one huge map.

The fact one player if skilled could take out 2-3 players was considered awesome at the time. Rarely was there whining about getting classes nerfed (it happened, just not as much as you see it today <warlock>). 3 good players could take out an 8 man and an 8 man could extend a zerg or bomb an afk zerg standing around waiting for their zergfest. Obviously you could easily reverse those outcomes and that’s fine, but that fact remained that you could pretty much run out into the Frontier and find a fight and have a blast doing it.

Part of the problem is the busy lives we lead. We live in an instant gratification world and people want to take that Tower or Keep, right now! There’s not much time for a group of would be defenders to react, which doesn’t promote fighting… it promotes point swapping. So in reality we are left with fighting PvE mobs to PvP. There are no more long sieges.

“There’s no waiting 35 minutes for the boat to come back around from Freeport.” boom I said it

Most people assume they are awesome at the game so it must mean there is something overpowered about the opposing class. Where I would probably ask myself …. what did I do wrong in the fight to lose?

Everyone’s entitled to an opinion and everyone is right about their own. What I think the original poster was trying to do was promote an environment of Fun gameplay for more than just one type of PvP demographic. Zerg is in fact ruling the majority of WvW. Any change to cater to the other options would never take away from the zerg….. you cant stop zerg.

This this this this this x 1 billion.

Khanswrath.1032:

I guess what I was trying to add was changing the game to suit a particular section of player is overall a bad idea.

Depends. If the game was changed so as to not disenfranchise currently happy players but at the same time made currently under served players happier and more liable to stick around for the long term that would be nothing but good for the game.

Population must be maintained in order for MMOs to work and they can only live for so long on churn. Having a core, loyal playerbase is essential.

Khanswrath.1032:

I was assuming something fierce,I will grant you that, but look at ever single post in the forums about any type of change in the gameplay/design and it is filled to the brim with assumptions of how the game “should” be.

It’s a forum on the internet, whats your point?

Khanswrath.1032:

You have to agree with me that most if not all of the complaints center around the fact that WvW is casual PvP. Most if not all the changes (aside from the culling issues) asked for want skill to shine over numbers. The more Anet starts to lean on skill > numbers the less player base you will find in WvW.

I disagree with the notion that WvW is “casual PvP.” Just like most other aspects of the game it has room to contain both dedicated and occasional players.

You’re also presuming that zerg players aren’t dedicated, this is also blatantly false. You’re from DR, you must know about good old Sir “Hitting Stonemist Gates While We Lose the Rest of EB is a Good Tradeoff” Morningstar. Would you call him a casual? With the hours he pulls? I’d call him many, many, insulting things before I got down that far and he only runs with the zerg.

Skill is not the primary differencing factor between “casual” and “hardcore.”

The problem right now is the rewards of skill are few and far between in WvW. It alienates a not insignificant chunk of people. It is an imbalance that should be worked out. Imo, the health of WvW depends on it.

They can also go to far the other way of course. tPvP has this issue atm. The skilled, practiced players get everything and everyone else gets screwed. The result is empty tPvP queues, because nobody who isn’t currently skilled can become skilled enough to be anything but fodder.

Good stuff in Reddit thread.

Maps need to be bigger and they need a reason to spread out the players on maps better too. I like the idea of the ellimination of swords that has been mentioned a million times. Subtle stat progression would be great, too.

We shall see what the patch brings.. Hopefully they’re listening!