Your top 5 priorities for WvW-Overhaul

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Posted by: darwinslittlehelper.7182

darwinslittlehelper.7182

Going to have to add my two cents.
I do think that the Alpine map needs to be fixed and returned…as part of a rotation or one borderland out of the three for the week. Alpine had its own problems, which was one of the reasons that Anet initially decided to remove it. Some changes to it, and it would be good to add back to the system. At least one more map added in addition would give some borderland variety. Three cloned maps are boring. When I invade an enemy land, it should look different than mine

I like the Desert borderland. It is beautifully crafted and interesting. Perfect? No, but that is fixable. Many have noted the towers are not strategic enough, and that movement around the map is frustrating and/or too slow. I think it is clear that gliding was intended to be put into the borderland and was not. It should be one of the options with which to spend the wvw points. This will require some map adjustments to prevent people skipping walls, as well as some no fly zones. All can be done, as these now exist in central Tyria. As for more places to spend points.. we have Autoloot! and a number of other suggestions, just none that give a large bonus or advantage, other than gliding.

One of the reasons for the desert borderland was to discourage the massive blob. The mechanics of the map do discourage blobbing, several other threads over the last few years have made great suggestions on how to break down this problematic play style.
I understand that some people like it a lot, and that many will follow the loot train with little fear of significant threat and even thought. Harsh perhaps, but I prefer more interesting play. The changes to rezzing are a good start to making blobs more vulnerable. Perhaps some stability and/or other changes?

I DO want to see the massive fights for an objective. I just do not want two massive blobs avoiding each other and slowly rotating around the map, everyone collecting rewards. Yuck.

There are many people who play WvW, and many more who would if they knew how fun it can be at its best. Like everyone else who posts here, I know people who think that WvW is interesting, but could be better.

Anet has made changes over the three plus years that this game mode has existed. Some have been great, others were not. They are showing they are listening now, keep the suggestions coming in for them, show your interest and support for this game mode.

One last note: server balancing. I think it should go some form alliance, others do not agree. I understand that. The servers, as they currently are, serve no purpose anymore. Some change is needed here.

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Posted by: bloodletting wolf.2837

bloodletting wolf.2837

Remove EotM.

There are more players playing EoTM (especially on the green side) 24/7 than there are on a few servers entirely.

We need those players integrated back into the normal maps before whatever you have planned for a population balance fix.

Removing eotm won’t improve wvw unfortunately or force players back into wvw.

WvW needs to stand on its own merits. You don’t kill a popular pvp game mode in hopes to get a handful back into wvw on your server.

WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone, just like eotm doesn’t appeal to everyone, so we don’t need to create more negative feelings toward the pvp side of the game by removing one for another.

Instead of thinking this way, we should look at the reasons why eotm has done so well and apply some of those elements to wvw.

Why has EotM done so well? They nerfed a lot of champ trains about the time EotM came out so those players migrated to where they can run in a circle getting champ bags. True story.

Let EotM stay. I honestly don’t want players with that style of play in WvW.

Because players are still there playing.

I know you don’t like eotm, but let’s not carry elitist attitudes and insult players who enjoy a game mode. We want to build the pvp community, not divide it.

Not an elitist attitude at all and I don’t see how I insulted anyone. I don’t like the play style but I’m not going to take that away from players who enjoy it. I have never once heard “Red is being slow someone toss a merchant so they can catch up” in WvW.

I know you love eotm but lets not wedge mechanics from that game mode into WvW. Comparing eotm and WvW is like comparing apples and oranges.

Kaa Mchorror NSP grenadier [hayt]

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Posted by: SagaHarbinger.1706

SagaHarbinger.1706

A lot of this has already been stated but it never hurts to reiterate good points.

1. Stability fix – The pirate-ship meta is boring/stale. I’m not sure if reverting stability back to what it was is the best fix or if should be adjusted, but something needs to be done. I shouldn’t have enough time to stare at the other team from across a choke point to make tea and come back to be just fine. Ideally I’d like to see a split between how skills work in PvP/PvE/WvW.

2. Bring back the Alpine map while the DBL map is being “fixed ” or a new map is being made. It is obvious time was spent on the new maps and they are lovely to look at, they just do not function properly. A lot of suggestions have been made regarding the DBL map and while this is being worked on, just give us the Alpine Maps back. Sure they had their problems, but I’d take Alpine over Desert any day. I miss the garrison fights, trying to bust into a fortified inner hills across the bridge, and or taking NE/NW tower to prepare for the garrison attack. Those were far more engaging and fun than the running simulator/gimmicky Desert BL map.

3. Rewards – WvW has very little reward incentive beyond the fun you get from playing it (roaming/havoc/zerging/quggan jumping/whatever). Beyond that, PvE is more profitable/rewarding and PvP has its own reward track as well. WvW actually had a “mastery” track before the rest of the game with wvw rank, but nothing was done with this in HoT and one of the most useful masteries was never added to WvW – hello auto-loot. I have all these “wvw rank points” that I can do absolutely nothing with besides accumulating more of them. WvW is the middle child no one wants to give anything to.

4. HoT Gimmicks – Banners/Airship/Chilling Fog/Iron Hide – I honestly do not know why these were ever added to the game. I understand that trying to take a keep should be difficult not near impossible. It’s already sieged up with Arrow Carts/Shield Generators at every corner and choke now let’s throw in chilling fog and let’s make the beefed up lord take 30 mins to kill with Iron Hide if you can manage to break the choke. Oh look they now have two Dragon Banners in their zerg which just all respawned because they used the emergency waypoint.

5. Population/Scoring –. Population imbalance and the scoring I think are tied together. People like to flock to “strong” servers winning the PPT game, no matter how players/servers try to advocate “balancing.” The game has been out for a while and WvW has been bleeding for just as long. It’s currently on life support and this needs to be looked at seriously. People have been giving feedback on this for years.

I am quaggan hear me coo

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Posted by: SyIux.5794

SyIux.5794

1. Fix or revert DBL.

I think it is much harder to fix Desert BL, you will have to: reduce the size of the map, remove some choke points, make it easier to navigate, bring back strategy value to towers, remove some pve mehanics, rework air/fire keep, remove or fill with something important to fight for- north east and west area of map, replace oasis event with other non pve event, make oasis area more flat, easier to fight there. I would suggest replacing oasis event with orbs of power event, each team will have to protect the orb from enemies or something similar.

The best solution is to bring back old Alpine borders and after that fix desert bl, ask community for feedback and beta tests all the changes again. I would also love to see in the future 3 different borderland maps, example blue-alpine( change it visually to be a snow map, you will have to make all the towers much bigger etc), red – desert bl and green – new jungle bl.

2. Stability and skill balance.

A lot of people don’t like stability changes, because it created pirateship meta, where backline is too strong and melee can not push because the amount of cc Is ridiculous and dmg is too high also. In big fights you can lose 10 stacks of stability within 1 sec or even less lol. I suggest adding 0.5s cd on the lose of stability stack.

Stability changes also buffed big mindless zergs/blobs against small organized guild group (15-25 people), before stability changes and power creep guilds were able to wipe much bigger groups with coordination, skills etc, but right now it is almost impossible.( one of the reason why a lot of guilds left game after stability changes).
A lot of people don’t see it, but even if stability will be reworked, there is still problem with dmg. Power creep has been introduced with June 2015 specialization patch and later with new expansion specs. I would reduce direct and condi dmg by 20% in WvW, or even more for some skills, I don’t know. Guardian running with 3,4k armor can be hit by gunflame for 9k….TWICE.

Few skills to look at (there are more):
- Dh longbow #5 is too op, you should not be able to lose like 5 stacks of stab by just one skill
- CoR from revenant,
- Berserker gunflame ( how this skill can be almost insta? And deals such aoe dmg)

3. Population balance/scoring

I don’t know what you are planning here, but it is very important to bring back competition in WvW. With the current server system, people are just transferring to the best server to win. We should go back to the roots of RvR games, there should be a server/team pride, winning should matter. (Maybe add some loyalty rewards, special skins for your team)

To bring back competition you will have to fix also scoring system, defending should matter, you should not be able to win matchup by just nightcapping/capping when map is empty. I suggest to add dynamic scoring system which depends on map population, if there is no enemy on map you will get less points for capping objectives. Fights should have much bigger impact to the score (ppk change is a good start).

Server community should still be able to play together, if you are planning to remove servers. I like the idea of guilds/server community creating alliances, there would be limit on alliance, to not overstack it, dynamic system which depends on WvW population.

Merging server will not help to fix population, same issues what we have now will appear later again, and EoTM mega server system will kill WvW completely, there would be no point of defending or winning, you wouldn’t be able to play with your old server community.

4. Rewards

Right now WvW payers are forced to do pve just to buy foods and other stuffs, which are really expensive.
Guild hall war room should be reworked, you should be able to earn these stuffs by playing WvW.

The only reward we get is for taking objectives (which promotes karma training), people should be rewarded for defending, scouting, zerg busting, etc. Add rewards for winning matchup after fixing scoring system.

Add WvW reward tracks similar to pvp.

5. Changes to siege system.

Make sieging objectives fun again. Sieges should be used against objectives or to counter other sieges, you shouldn’t be able to use sieges against players. Right now some servers will just build 10 arrow carts behind gates, and they wont come out to fight even if they have enough players. I don’t know how to fix it, but it is not fun to stay at the gates under 10 acs.

6. Remove EoTM

Eotm was a map for people who are in queue for real WvW maps, but it is being abused now by pve farmers. Remove it, or make it available only if all WvW maps are in queue.

(edited by SyIux.5794)

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Posted by: Daralf.4930

Daralf.4930

What if they made it where it was done by team color instead of server. Then they could use the same system for filling pve maps to fill wvw maps and there could be multiple instances of each map. Of course you would need to be able to enter a map as a squad and be locked to your color for a certain amount of time. Maybe even rewards (Ascended) for the longer you kept your color. Of course I have no idea how you would do scoring or how you would keep population balanced.

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Posted by: ismablak.5948

ismablak.5948

Make PPK more important than PPT and this will give WvW the action we need (:

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Posted by: Skynet.7201

Skynet.7201

These next couple days will be your last chance to give feedback before we make a decision, so speak now or forever hold your peace.

Here’s my final feedback before the two days are up!!!


Regarding skill balancing, it would be helpful to finally have it separated from the other two game modes and THEN have a skill balance. Otherwise we’ll have issues with one game mode or another again. The other two game modes are nothing like WvW, so we do need a separate identity.


Stability. For the love of Dwayna, yes please. No doubt, this goes hand in hand with my previous paragraph.


Couldn’t care less about scoring right now. It’s functional-ish while other, more important things get resolved.


Couldn’t care less about rewards at the moment either. We’ve been the red-headed stepchildren for over three years now, and we can wait a bit longer for functionality to be in place before some kind of new achievement point/reward track gets thrown in. Unless rewards means a better drop rate, then naw, it can wait.

Speaking of which… O.O

Where in the heck is OUR auto-loot? Lots of people are using macros, which I’ve not done yet, and don’t want to. Oh, and please don’t make that a new “reward track.” Most of us already did it in pve because we were told it would be usable in WvW. :*(


There’s only one reason why I say scrap Desert BL for now. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a beautiful map, truly. But correct me if I’m wrong, wouldn’t it be easier to switch back to Alpine for the time being? There’s way too much dysfunction with Desert atm.

Two birds, one stone, y’all work out how to switch back to Alpine, then there’s no issue switching again at a later date when Desert BL 1.1 is nice and bells/whistles/gizmo/gimmick-free and ready to ship.


Regarding population balance/imbalance. Here is something one of my friends said in our GW2 Facebook group (shameless plug, group link is in my signature) about this thread in particular:

“It’s kinda hard to design maps that discourage zerging while still allowing zergs, to spread population evenly while maintaining server pride and reputation, to eliminate nightcapping while making wvw a perpetual conflict. These things are mutually exclusive and there is no dev on the planet who could make them happen.”

I did mention in a previous thread, though, that some of the lower servers do need to be shut down. Servers are only applicable to WvW now, so there’s really no need to try to hang onto something the devs really can’t fix (see previous paragraph, it’s true!). Offering free xfers to them will help them, and help to populate some mid-tier servers.

Win-win, if there are less servers, there will be closer matchups, and with closer matchups there will be more tier rotation. Let’s face it, it is perpetual. And this is the best way to balance.

And please. NO alliances. Let’s not change the original WvW to something we don’t recognize and something we didn’t play for the past 3+ years.


Thank you for Friday night reset. Although it didn’t bother me either way, a lot of my server mates really got screwed over that. My beloved OCX friends especially. <3


Well, that’s it for me. It’s a step in the right direction, and hopefully we can get some people back from the other game that recently launched. Not gonna lie, I’ve got one foot in that one also, just in case our WvW stays broken.

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Posted by: samanosuke asakura.6240

samanosuke asakura.6240

-reward tracks
-stabi change
-alpine borderlands

-close eotm get those people back in wvw when there q on all maps open up eotm for that server.
fuse NA an EU for night cap kitten maybe?

Honour and Pride and Devotion

Samanosuke Asakura Far shiver peaks

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Posted by: msalakka.4653

msalakka.4653

The people asking for you to “fix” the DBL are a minority compared to those who want the Alpines reinstated. You referring to “fixing” it as an option makes me think that because of time and money invested in designing a map unsuited for this game mode, you’re going to attempt to “fix” it, thus wasting more time while the game mode keeps bleeding players.

If you really believe you can “fix” that which is broken by design, at least give us the Alpines in the meantime so we can have some fun for a change while you figure out how to add more PvE into DBL to improve it.

Gutter Rat [cry] | Gandara | Roaming nuisance
~ There is no balance team. ~

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Posted by: FogLeg.9354

FogLeg.9354

Scoring

It all boils down to problem with scoring. Trying to fix WvW without proper changes to score calculations is like picking a proper lipstick color for dead horse. It can make it prettier but its still dead horse.

The passive tick has been really bad idea from the beginning. It will work if your game can assure there are lots of players in WvW around 24 hours for each server. Which is not the case. Most servers atm have enough players for 4-6 hours. The scoring has to reflect this.

Current scoring system rewards actively avoiding any contact with enemy players. It is better to change map then fight an enemy. It is better to play when no enemy is online. These have to be changed.

Population balance

This is closely related to the scoring problem. Players flock into bigger servers because more players will win against less players. They will continue to do so unless scoring will be changed to reward less populated servers and punish running around in zerg taking empty objectives without never fighting enemy players.

The WvW was losing players even before HoT because matches were won or lost based on the number of players. There is number of ways population can be spread evenly but this needs to be done or there wont be any WvW to fix.

Skill balance

There is a lot of threads about stability and most of them are wrong. Nothing wrong about current stability itself.

Of course there is a lot wrong with current skill balance. HoT added too many too strong skills. Too many skills now have extra CC or apply conditions. Its currently a big mess and some builds remain way too strong.

I understand how complicated the problem of skill balance is and will be in the future whenever more elites or new classes are added. I also understand most classes are designed for PvE (either solo or small group fights) and so large group fights in WvW can easily break anything that works fine elsewhere.

I would be fine if WvW would only allow few pieces of PvP gear or only small selection of PvE skills or no conditions at all. Clearly it is impossible task to consider how every possible item and skill combination available in PvE will work in large scale WvW combat. Then don’t do that, pick just selection of stuff that works for WvW and disable the rest.

Fix or revert DBL

Such a waste of time and energy. First fix the scoring. And population. And skills. Then, after these changes look at the maps and consider what to do with them.

People whining about desert maps and demanding old maps back are really just saying they want more players to WvW. They remember days when WvW had more action and just because it happened to be on old maps they assume changing maps back will magically fill WvW with players again.

Most of them will shut up when they have enemy to fight. Does not matter which map it is.

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Posted by: moonlitfractal.9480

moonlitfractal.9480

First, I’d like to thank the wvw community for all their great replies on this thread. You guys have really stepped up! I want to add my own top five but, to put it in context, I’m going to tell you a little about myself.

I’ve been on TC for the entirety of my 3+ year gw2 career, so all my experience in wvw is at the t1/t2 level. However, in that time I’ve gone from being a guildless pug to commanding for one of the server’s most prominent wvw guilds and everything in between. Here’s what I’d change.

1. REWARDS
-A. Real talk time: I’m currently working on two legendary weapons and would like to get a legendary back piece at some point. Right now, to do those things, I have to take time out of my favorite play mode and do either pve or pvp for reward tracks, because wvw simply cannot keep up in terms of crafting materials or coin per the amount of time invested, and that’s without considering the massive costs for siege and upgrades that keep wvw from even paying for itself if you’re playing at the high levels. Give us reward tracks, give us legendary back items, give us chests for capturing and defending objectives. Make logging in and playing wvw worth the time and effort. Keep veteran players in the BLs, and maybe attract some new ones. (I’m aware that there are materials needed for legendarys that can only be gotten in wvw, and guess what? Just from playing normally I have run out of storage space for those mats, while barely making a dent in the other mats I need. If crafting were my only goal I wouldn’t log into wvw at all at this point).
-B. XP. You can’t gain xp in wvw. Maybe you can if you’re an uplevel (which is not really viable at the level where I play), but if you’re like me or my friends you just can’t, not even the consolation spirit shards we used to get before HoT. You can gain wxp, which is nice and, you know, actually relevant to our game mode, but you can only get that for kills and caps. I remember watching a ‘guild chat’ video around the time of the HoT launch and Ruby was talking about how, in HoT, you can gain xp from anything, including things like gathering and ressing people. Well, in wvw you can’t. If you do those things you get useless xp that gives you nothing, just some gold numbers that fly in front of your face, mocking you. No progress toward a goal. Even in PvP there are rank points for ressing allies. WvW: nothing.
-C. Winning. Two matchups ago, my server was in second place for most of the week but we worked very hard, stayed up late, and managed to come in first by a slim margin. What rewards did we get for all our effort? A couple of masterwork items and bragging rights (and the tears of our enemies, but does having that be the most important reward contribute to a welcoming gaming community or a toxic one?). It makes it really hard to care about the outcome of the matches when that’s all you get for a win. It doesn’t have to be game-breaking, but maybe a celebration booster for everyone on the server (including those who aren’t avid wvw players) would get people to care about the outcome, and that would get people to log in, populating our bls and making the game more fun for everyone. Of course, this isn’t really viable with the current matchup algorithm that tends to favor the same exact matchups and outcomes week after week for months at a time.

2. Maps
Ok, I know I’m in the minority here, but I really like the desert maps. I’m a big blobby open-field sort of commander, and, while there aren’t a ton of spots for open field combat compared to alpine bls, the terrain makes for some really interesting places to fight (some of my favorite being refuge camp and the sentry point south of academy). The shrines, the layout of the keeps, and even the position of the northern camp make it distinct from the alpine bl, leading to new and creative strategies. Do not remove the desert BL. Do not change it. Just give the people who don’t like it an alternative. Right now, that alternative is EBG, which is always queued. Players like me, who spent the majority of their pre-HoT time on the alpine BLs have had to adapt fast or, like too many of my friends have done, quit playing all together. Pretty much all the learning I did in my first two years playing gw2 has been rendered meaningless. I’m adapting, but it’s been hard.

You need to bring back the alpine borderlands in some form. In my ideal scenario, red BL is always desert, blue BL is always alpine, and green BL is a third, new BL, maybe with a jungle flavor. The matchups will be their most interesting and dynamic if each borderland map has a different layout, necessitating, different strategies. Right now, map hopping is an important part of wvw, as is drawing the enemy from one map to another. Think how much more interesting that would be with three different maps running at the same time. (I know, I know, I’ll probably have to wait for the second expansion for a new map, but a girl can dream). Of course, this could get very frustrating if a server’s home BL is the same color week after week and its a map they don’t like, but I think this is a problem best solved by adjusting the matchups, not the maps themselves.

3. MATCHUPS.
Right now, the glicko system heavily favors the status quo. We get the same match-ups week after week and are usually the same color, week after week. In t2 it’s boring. In t1 it was soul-crushing. I think a lot of my fellow players feel that the only way around this is to frequently hop servers which is not a solution and damages communities. Re-balancing populations through something like alliances would fix a lot of things, but is a high-risk move. Any change of that magnitude could potentially force more people out of the game mode. A change in the match-up algorithm could at least mitigate some of the problems with wvw without as much risk to the community, and might be a better solution for the short/medium term. You know what else would help? REWARDS.

4. Stability.
This point has been thoroughly addressed by previous commenters. I simply want to add my name to the petition to revert to non-stacking stability in wvw. Stacking stab works fine in pve, but is a failed experiment in wvw. At the very least, the way stacks are added and removed needs to be re-balanced specifically in wvw.

5. General support for hard-core wvw play (my, that sounds dirty).
When raids came out there were complaints from some players that the content was ‘gated,’ not open to all players, only those with the highest level gear and the time and energy to devote to perfecting their play-style. The answer from the devs: not everything is meant for all players. When players complained about adventures being too hard the response was similar: not all content is for all players. And yet, time and again, when the hard-core wvw community has asked for something (invisible tags, for example), the response we get is along the lines of “but that would prevent casual players from accessing everything!” This is the opposite of the philosophy in pve raids and in ranked pvp. By making wvw so flatly ‘accessible’ you are telling hard-core players that we don’t matter, or, worse, don’t exist. At this point all I want is some acknowledgement from the devs that, even on the same server, different levels of wvw investment exist, and some support for those of us who play at the ‘raid’ level.

Thank you for your time.

PS, I know that gliding would ‘break everything’ but every time, EVERY TIME, I log into wvw and realize I can’t glide it feel like a slap in the face. Doubly so with all the verticality in the desert bl. It certainly makes me feel less like playing. Maybe there’s some way to implement gliding on a limited basis?

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Posted by: CCLegion.5936

CCLegion.5936

My 2 cents on a certain topic. That topic being the stability fix.
Basically, there would be a ton of issues if you go back to duration stacking. Several things that were introduced or buffed after that change would dramatically increase its effectiveness beyond what we remember.
Due to the introduction of concentration as armor stat, reaching 100% uptime on would be easier than ever.
With the popularity of boonshare mesmers, which would only increase if such a change were to happen, and the amount of resistance the bring it is also unlikely that soft CC has the desired effect.
End result being groups with very high if not perfect resistance to all forms of CC.
And I’m not sure whether boon corruption would be a good answer to all that either.

Overall, it’s a concept that is, in my opinion, very dangerous when all that’s needed is a few nerfs to certain skills and a buff to stability to protect it against massed CC.

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Posted by: MomentofWeakness.1246

MomentofWeakness.1246

My 2 cents on a certain topic. That topic being the stability fix.
Basically, there would be a ton of issues if you go back to duration stacking. Several things that were introduced or buffed after that change would dramatically increase its effectiveness beyond what we remember.
Due to the introduction of concentration as armor stat, reaching 100% uptime on would be easier than ever.
With the popularity of boonshare mesmers, which would only increase if such a change were to happen, and the amount of resistance the bring it is also unlikely that soft CC has the desired effect.
End result being groups with very high if not perfect resistance to all forms of CC.
And I’m not sure whether boon corruption would be a good answer to all that either.

Overall, it’s a concept that is, in my opinion, very dangerous when all that’s needed is a few nerfs to certain skills and a buff to stability to protect it against massed CC.

Even at 100% boon duration Guardians will only have Stand Your Ground (10s of stability) and Virtue of Courage/Shield of Courage (8 seconds of stability). If you go 100% into boon duration there are both advantages and disadvantages (example, you give up damage and armor for health and boon duration). Having duration based stability isn’t going to cause problems. Right now boon strips are devalued by disables (hard cc’s) because disables go directly to the stability boon essentially bypassing other boons… at least in the past boon strips didn’t always guarantee loss of stability, they just guaranteed a loss of boons. The counter play to duration based stability was boon strips in the past and emphasis on utilizing those types of skills would return to the game mode if duration based stability returned like the majority of people are requesting. As far as resistance, well many guilds already stack this boon in a variety of ways, perhaps resistance could be evaluated after they reverted stability but in the current meta where everything you can think of is locking down melee players can you blame guilds for trying to counter ranged bombs by resistance stacking? Anyways your thoughts…?

Its Choo – 250,000 Kills in WvW and Counting…
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Posted by: Krockette.3964

Krockette.3964

Revert back to the old maps.

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Posted by: Liston.9708

Liston.9708

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→most likely YB

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Posted by: MomentofWeakness.1246

MomentofWeakness.1246

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta). I’m sure WvW’s lack of rewards and other things were a factor but that was a primary issue at the time.

Its Choo – 250,000 Kills in WvW and Counting…
WvW Commander – NA PST
Sexiest Level 80 Charr Guardian In The Game

(edited by MomentofWeakness.1246)

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Posted by: sionnach.5391

sionnach.5391

My idea:
lets have
1 Eternal
2 Alpine
1 Desert Borderland

I really like this idea. DBL top center, EBG bottom center, Alpine to each side.

Fix up the DBL and that is the map that the ‘loser’ of the prior week gets, as defense is a little easier there with small groups than on the old Alpine maps. Make DBL a little smaller, cut down the ‘fall to your death’ spots a bit (except on Air keep, as that is part of the strategic point), and have the waypoints work for the server that owns a keep, period. Maybe have tunnels between the far points and the oasis that only work if you ‘own’ both ends?

This is a brilliant idea! I love the concept of 3 different maps – in fact I much prefer this to rotating weeks between DBLs and ABLs. This is genius.

Guild Leader – Owl Legion of Kaineng

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Posted by: Tobias Steele.2071

Tobias Steele.2071

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

QFT. The game mode bled players for years before hot, and that was at least partially due to those maps. The issue being the ones that stayed are the ones that liked it the most.

Entropy, Class lead Necromancer.
Tarnished Coast.

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Posted by: Aezyr.5304

Aezyr.5304

Removing eotm won’t improve wvw unfortunately or force players back into wvw.

WvW needs to stand on its own merits. You don’t kill a popular pvp game mode in hopes to get a handful back into wvw on your server.

WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone, just like eotm doesn’t appeal to everyone, so we don’t need to create more negative feelings toward the pvp side of the game by removing one for another.

Instead of thinking this way, we should look at the reasons why eotm has done so well and apply some of those elements to wvw.

People love EotM because it’s a karmatrain, you earn lots of loot, karma, experience. Occasionally a guild will run there just to run over a zerg of uplevels for a laugh. It’s essentially Queensdale train 2.0.

If we leave EotM as is and Anet apply their population balance fix before the reward system then people will flock from EotM to normal WvW and cause another imbalance, possibly destroying the fix they had just applied. People will go wherever the rewards are handed out.

Granted, they could implement the new rewards before the population fix and give enough time for players to swap over themselves but in the end, EotM will end up a ghost town. And if they allow you to earn the rewards in EotM then more players will flock there since you’ll be able to earn them faster there which could make WvW lose even more players.

Well it’s a good example on what will happen if this megaserver idea will be used on normal WvW. Anoymous hordes following a commander they don’t know.

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta).

LOL, yes “melee” classes are second tier, poor guardians how do they cope, the lack of objectivity and hypocrisy is amazing, for second (or rather third tier) take a look at how engy/ranger/mes & thief have fared in large scale WvW for the entire game, at best bit parts at worst non-existent, where were the cries about those, ah that’s right nowhere, that “melee” classes were totally overrepresented, totally OP, for much of the game (and guards still are) was just fine.

As for the old stability it was just as broken as the current system, which is why you had 60 man “melee” blobs rolling face across the keyboard with unstoppable amounts of stab that would not be stripped & that rendered supposed strong long cooldown hard CC skills useless, it says a lot about how bad the WvW playerbase is, how similar it is to the mindless drones in Silverwastes, that some think a system was “good” with a mechanic so broken that it rendered hard CC useless and made ‘positioning’ and pushing braindead easy.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: ShinigamiPL.4086

ShinigamiPL.4086

1. Rewards
it’s been said already so i’m just gonna repeat after other players – you did nice work with pvp reward track. You should buff it just a bit so we can pick better rewards (e.g. ascended gear) – even if it requires much more xp. You should really consider general aproach that promotes higher rewards if the effort is bigger. So far the easier gameplay we pick (like SW farm or resources farm) the more money we earn. That’s not the best way.
2. Population ballance.
I’m not sure if those guild alliances rumors are true or even possible. If not – plz consider option with MORE servers. But this time bring some that are not 24/7 but much less – in terms of keeps/ garri/ towers/ camps score for holding. If some part of GW community is still interested in current way to play wvw – allow them. But i’m sure that there is also significant group of players that will be happy if the score time limit would be introduced – for example 6 hours a day and then stop the clock. We should be still able to take over infrastructure, fight ect. but with no impact to the score.
3. Chat options
plz conside additional channel for whole wvw server. As a member of the low population community i find it difficult to send message to other wvw players that some keep or garri is being attacked (i’m limited to the current map).
4. Class changes
Thats tricky one – so far we have only one class that has unique mechanics – and that is mesmer with portal. You’ve decided to allow thiefs and engis to hide inside keeps/ towers – same rules as mesmers applies with stealth. But let’s face it – in deserted borderlands they are kinda useless atm. So maybe they should get some kind of skills that will be helpfull and give them reason to stay? And it’s not necessery means another portal class. But thief could ‘steal’ supplies leaving keep empty and with no posibility to build sieges. Engi could work on picklocks and open gate from inside, block upgrades or sth like that.

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Posted by: ricky markham.8173

ricky markham.8173

1first redesign the borderlands there are things on the desert that are good but too many choke points and cliffs no more pve in middle of map ever nothing should be there to make taking easier

2 population needs to be adressed on lower servers maybe combine a few in the lower tiers to make a bigger population or something along that line. i dont like the alliance thing that was mentioned in other threads

3 dragon banners and stuff emergency waypoints dont like that at all

4 awards need to be changed more like the pvp reward line not high enough to make it most rewarding but something unique or give us stuff like pvp does. i like the pvp reward lines and think they should be used as examples

5i dont like ppt but i know many do i feel that wvw should be around objectives but im willing to conceed this point for the other 4 things

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Posted by: MomentofWeakness.1246

MomentofWeakness.1246

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta).

LOL, yes “melee” classes are second tier, poor guardians how do they cope, the lack of objectivity and hypocrisy is amazing, for second (or rather third tier) take a look at how engy/ranger/mes & thief have fared in large scale WvW for the entire game, at best bit parts at worst non-existent, where were the cries about those, ah that’s right nowhere, that “melee” classes were totally overrepresented, totally OP, for much of the game (and guards still are) was just fine.

As for the old stability it was just as broken as the current system, which is why you had 60 man “melee” blobs rolling face across the keyboard with unstoppable amounts of stab that would not be stripped & that rendered supposed strong long cooldown hard CC skills useless, it says a lot about how bad the WvW playerbase is, how similar it is to the mindless drones in Silverwastes, that some think a system was “good” with a mechanic so broken that it rendered hard CC useless and made ‘positioning’ and pushing braindead easy.

1. Engineer, Ranger, Mes, and Thief do have a purpose in WvW fights, its called gank-team. The purpose of gank classes was to primarily focus low melee (Engineer, Ranger, Mes could do this, or if the melee was slowed and became separatedThieves could jump in as well) and backline and create downs subsequently creating momentum for their team. (winning the rally fight = winning the fight often times, although this is less important now with rallying only reviving 1 player as opposed to 5). If you really think that these classes didn’t serve a purpose then I feel like you didn’t understand their value in fights, I mean this respectfully. Pressuring and taking out the enemies casters in particular helps your group apply more pressure on the enemy and allows your melee train to ramp up its aggressiveness in fights as well as finish downs. A good pick team could control the ebb and flow of a fight and have a major impact on the outcome. I’ve seen it a ton of times…If you really think these classes didn’t matter then why did [TA] Team Aggression from EU have Sindrener from PvP team [oRNG] Orange Logo on their gank team?

2. Old stability wasn’t broken if you utilized boon strips and were organized enough to call out when the enemy didn’t have stability on their skill bar and dropped your hard CC’s when they were vulnerable to them. It required you to use boon strips and good communication but they weren’t rendered useless…In essence, old stability required good mechanics and communication to strip and then make plays off of while it was not actively on the enemy, what’s so bad about that?

3. If anything has devalued Engineer, Ranger, Mes, and Thief it was the combination of new stability and the rally mechanic changing…I personally wish they’d make it 2-3 people rallying instead of 1. I do think 5 was too many but 2-3 seems more reasonable than 1 to me (just my opinion here).

Its Choo – 250,000 Kills in WvW and Counting…
WvW Commander – NA PST
Sexiest Level 80 Charr Guardian In The Game

(edited by MomentofWeakness.1246)

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Posted by: Liston.9708

Liston.9708

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta). I’m sure WvW’s lack of rewards and other things were a factor but that was a primary issue at the time.

Agreed – it is the HOT and dbl talk of being the ruin that is wrong. It certainly did not help, but there was a lot of attrition before HOT oh and clamor ing for new maps…..

YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→most likely YB

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Posted by: lil devils x.6071

lil devils x.6071

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta). I’m sure WvW’s lack of rewards and other things were a factor but that was a primary issue at the time.

Agreed – it is the HOT and dbl talk of being the ruin that is wrong. It certainly did not help, but there was a lot of attrition before HOT oh and clamor ing for new maps…..

It isn’t wrong, you see, these things (PPK, Stabs, siege humping no GvG ladder) being wrong made people leave… THEN the DBLS made the rest leave… THEY BOTH ruined the game.. not just one or the other. Players just started leaving even faster than they did before over the DBLS in hordes.

[KILL]Killing Tiers Leader [TOON] Toons of Terror Leader [NEWS This Just In Leader
WvW / PVP ONLY

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Posted by: MomentofWeakness.1246

MomentofWeakness.1246

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta). I’m sure WvW’s lack of rewards and other things were a factor but that was a primary issue at the time.

Agreed – it is the HOT and dbl talk of being the ruin that is wrong. It certainly did not help, but there was a lot of attrition before HOT oh and clamor ing for new maps…..

It isn’t wrong, you see, these things (PPK, Stabs, siege humping no GvG ladder) being wrong made people leave… THEN the DBLS made the rest leave… THEY BOTH ruined the game.. not just one or the other. Players just started leaving even faster than they did before over the DBLS in hordes.

I think we are agreeing here? I said it was “a primary issue” NOT “the” primary issue…

Its Choo – 250,000 Kills in WvW and Counting…
WvW Commander – NA PST
Sexiest Level 80 Charr Guardian In The Game

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Posted by: aandiarie.7195

aandiarie.7195

BEST wvw forum post ever!!

Scoring

It all boils down to problem with scoring. Trying to fix WvW without proper changes to score calculations is like picking a proper lipstick color for dead horse. It can make it prettier but its still dead horse.

The passive tick has been really bad idea from the beginning. It will work if your game can assure there are lots of players in WvW around 24 hours for each server. Which is not the case. Most servers atm have enough players for 4-6 hours. The scoring has to reflect this.

Current scoring system rewards actively avoiding any contact with enemy players. It is better to change map then fight an enemy. It is better to play when no enemy is online. These have to be changed.

Population balance

This is closely related to the scoring problem. Players flock into bigger servers because more players will win against less players. They will continue to do so unless scoring will be changed to reward less populated servers and punish running around in zerg taking empty objectives without never fighting enemy players.

The WvW was losing players even before HoT because matches were won or lost based on the number of players. There is number of ways population can be spread evenly but this needs to be done or there wont be any WvW to fix.

Skill balance

There is a lot of threads about stability and most of them are wrong. Nothing wrong about current stability itself.

Of course there is a lot wrong with current skill balance. HoT added too many too strong skills. Too many skills now have extra CC or apply conditions. Its currently a big mess and some builds remain way too strong.

I understand how complicated the problem of skill balance is and will be in the future whenever more elites or new classes are added. I also understand most classes are designed for PvE (either solo or small group fights) and so large group fights in WvW can easily break anything that works fine elsewhere.

I would be fine if WvW would only allow few pieces of PvP gear or only small selection of PvE skills or no conditions at all. Clearly it is impossible task to consider how every possible item and skill combination available in PvE will work in large scale WvW combat. Then don’t do that, pick just selection of stuff that works for WvW and disable the rest.

Fix or revert DBL

Such a waste of time and energy. First fix the scoring. And population. And skills. Then, after these changes look at the maps and consider what to do with them.

People whining about desert maps and demanding old maps back are really just saying they want more players to WvW. They remember days when WvW had more action and just because it happened to be on old maps they assume changing maps back will magically fill WvW with players again.

Most of them will shut up when they have enemy to fight. Does not matter which map it is.

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

1. Engineer, Ranger, Mes, and Thief do have a purpose in WvW fights, its called gank-team. …

LOL, most WvW guilds did not even recruit engies or rangers for most of the game that is how valued they were, whilst mes & thief had small niche roles (and that was in GvG/guilds, in blobs those niche roles were reduced even further), there were more guards in a blob or guild raid than those four classes put together, and that is still the case now, which puts your cries about “melee” into perspective, class balance in WvW has always been a total joke, so when people go on about the tragic state of melee being “second tier” it comes across as pure hypocrisy.

2. Old stability wasn’t broken if you utilized boon strips and were organized enough to call out when the enemy didn’t have stability on their skill bar and dropped your hard CC’s when they were vulnerable to them. It required you to use boon strips and good communication but they weren’t rendered useless…In essence, old stability required good mechanics and communication to strip and then make plays off of while it was not actively on the enemy, what’s so bad about that?

Not really, boon strip was a joke, most of the boon stripping skills were useless in large scale (mes strip on shatter, steal, thief sword 3, etc), then you had things like well of corruption where stab was the last in order to be stripped, which is a joke when melee ran around with a row of boons permanently covering stab, and could reapply with instant skills, and with a couple of guards that rotating stab you could keep it up most of the time, which when you consider you have times when you back off, or standing off, or can tank a CC because of the position you are in, you basically had it whenever you would actually need it, and the chances of it getting stripped were tiny, which is why it was all about immobilize, because hard CC was pretty useless.

Old stab was skilless faceroll, which is exactly why some like it, but then this is a game mode so brainless that “melee” don’t even have to make any real decisions like positioning, other than the driver / commander, so I guess it is no surprise.

And the idea of going back to the old stab with the boon spam power creep, durability runes, frontline revs, commander stats, boon duration food, etc and now with resistance so even immobilize wouldn’t work is beyond hilarious.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: lil devils x.6071

lil devils x.6071

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta). I’m sure WvW’s lack of rewards and other things were a factor but that was a primary issue at the time.

Agreed – it is the HOT and dbl talk of being the ruin that is wrong. It certainly did not help, but there was a lot of attrition before HOT oh and clamor ing for new maps…..

It isn’t wrong, you see, these things (PPK, Stabs, siege humping no GvG ladder) being wrong made people leave… THEN the DBLS made the rest leave… THEY BOTH ruined the game.. not just one or the other. Players just started leaving even faster than they did before over the DBLS in hordes.

I think we are agreeing here? I said it was “a primary issue” NOT “the” primary issue…

Yes, some just do not want to believe it. Players were bored and wanted more than anything for HoT to be the fix that they had asked for. It needs to be understood, that players really had high hopes and were excited about HoT until they got to the DBL and the other gimmicks such as the banners and airship then they started running from the game like they were on fire because they knew once and for all that The devs didn’t do anything they asked for and just made it much much worse.

[KILL]Killing Tiers Leader [TOON] Toons of Terror Leader [NEWS This Just In Leader
WvW / PVP ONLY

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Posted by: Liston.9708

Liston.9708

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta). I’m sure WvW’s lack of rewards and other things were a factor but that was a primary issue at the time.

Agreed – it is the HOT and dbl talk of being the ruin that is wrong. It certainly did not help, but there was a lot of attrition before HOT oh and clamor ing for new maps…..

It isn’t wrong, you see, these things (PPK, Stabs, siege humping no GvG ladder) being wrong made people leave… THEN the DBLS made the rest leave… THEY BOTH ruined the game.. not just one or the other. Players just started leaving even faster than they did before over the DBLS in hordes.

And you really believe your guild mate 60% of all those people will return by bringing back the old BLs? No doubt SOME would return, but no where near that. I personally think the stab change making it a pirate ship Mexican stand off of a whole lot of standing around was the 1 biggest thing that caused people to stop playing….

YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→most likely YB

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Posted by: MomentofWeakness.1246

MomentofWeakness.1246

1. Engineer, Ranger, Mes, and Thief do have a purpose in WvW fights, its called gank-team. …

LOL, most guilds did not even recruit engies or rangers for most of the game that is how valued they were, whilst mes & thief had small niche roles, there were more guards in a blob or guild raid than those four classes put together, and that is still the case now, which puts your cries about “melee” into perspective, class balance in WvW has always been a total joke, so when people go on about the tragic state of melee being “second tier” it comes across as pure hypocrisy.

2. Old stability wasn’t broken if you utilized boon strips and were organized enough to call out when the enemy didn’t have stability on their skill bar and dropped your hard CC’s when they were vulnerable to them. It required you to use boon strips and good communication but they weren’t rendered useless…In essence, old stability required good mechanics and communication to strip and then make plays off of while it was not actively on the enemy, what’s so bad about that?

Not really, boon strip was a joke, most of the boon stripping skills were useless in large scale (mes strip on shatter, steal, thief sword 3, etc), then you had things like well of corruption where stab was the last in order to be stripped, which is a joke when melee ran around with a row of boons permanently covering stab, and could reapply with instant skills, and with a couple of guards that rotating stab you could keep it up most of the time, which when you consider you have times when you back off, or standing off, or can tank a CC because of the position you are in, you basically had it whenever you would actually need it, and the chances of it getting stripped were tiny, which is why it was all about immobilize, because hard CC was pretty useless.

It’s true that rangers and engineers played little to no role at various points in time prior to HoT but if we take the ranger for example, it just needed more buffs to be competitive with thief and mesmer. Now that things have improved for those two classes you can make the argument that they are worthwhile in fights whereas before they were buffed you couldn’t but I wouldn’t blame the WvW community for that…Engineer and Ranger needed some love but that isn’t something that the community can control and the primary classes have always been dictated by the meta. Look at how prevalent Revenants are right now.

I disagree that boon strips were not important but I do agree with you that condition based CC’s: chill, cripple, and immobilize were extremely important as well and immobilize was a very prized condition based CC but again what’s wrong with that? You’re not going to convince me that boon strips had no value when I know necromancers who would work in groups and knew how to coordinate their damage well enough to boon strip and drop Guardians and Warriors in seconds during a fight.

As far as second-tier, I am saying the impact that Warrior’s and Guardian’s have in fights is second-tier to casters at the moment (Pirate Ship Meta) instead of being in equilibrium like it was before.

Its Choo – 250,000 Kills in WvW and Counting…
WvW Commander – NA PST
Sexiest Level 80 Charr Guardian In The Game

(edited by MomentofWeakness.1246)

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Posted by: lil devils x.6071

lil devils x.6071

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta). I’m sure WvW’s lack of rewards and other things were a factor but that was a primary issue at the time.

Agreed – it is the HOT and dbl talk of being the ruin that is wrong. It certainly did not help, but there was a lot of attrition before HOT oh and clamor ing for new maps…..

It isn’t wrong, you see, these things (PPK, Stabs, siege humping no GvG ladder) being wrong made people leave… THEN the DBLS made the rest leave… THEY BOTH ruined the game.. not just one or the other. Players just started leaving even faster than they did before over the DBLS in hordes.

And you really believe your guild mate 60% of all those people will return by bringing back the old BLs? No doubt SOME would return, but no where near that. I personally think the stab change making it a pirate ship Mexican stand off of a whole lot of standing around was the 1 biggest thing that caused people to stop playing….

Who is talking about just my guild? I have friends from both NA and EU servers ( all tiers) in MANY guilds. You have to look at the very MANY different players that left, not just one group. You have to look at the rate they left, when they left and why they left. They will tell you if you ask them. I still keep in contact with many of them, as we play many games together not just this one. Many of the guilds on this game have played numerous games together. One of my first guilds was formed on campus at UT Austin, and not only do we play games together ..we party as well. Everyone still talks to each other.. same guild rivalries on this game are already started on DBO, for example, the players are not leaving individually here, they are leaving in mass.

Many players will not go to the DBL at all, and will not touch this game again until they are gone. It was " the straw" that broke their back, an insult. They asked for so much for years and were ignored and given that gimmicky bouncy mess instead. THESE PLAYERS WERE IN BETA and let them know they didn’t like the maps.. then they put them in the game anyways. The stab issue is annoying as hell, but you can still win a fight even if you are being thrown around, but the DBL map terrain/ banners/ airship/ fog/ guild upgrades/ NPC’s/ auto WP/ all the nonsense made it unplayable for many. They stopped logging in all together. Small guilds feel robbed, large guilds are not even having fun anymore, scouts had everything they do in game taken from them.. In addition, PPK has never been given enough priority in a PvP game mode and it is sad.

[KILL]Killing Tiers Leader [TOON] Toons of Terror Leader [NEWS This Just In Leader
WvW / PVP ONLY

(edited by lil devils x.6071)

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Posted by: urieldhynne.2743

urieldhynne.2743

Players do not like complex maps to fight on it. Look EOTM, look Dominion mode in League of Legends.

The players want to travel from A to B almost without issues. If you build some complex building or mechanic MUST BE OPTIONAL like ruins in old BL. Zerg ignore it, and roamers could use it. That works.

You should back to old BL, improve the Keeps and Towers, add mechanics to the capture system IN THE PLACE, no in the map. Keep the map FLAT. Ppl want a place to fight freely, no a place to deal with it.

Is truly sad to get back to the old BL, because the new map is very pretty, but just don’t work. The protagonist in the WvW are the players, no the map.

I wish you could improve ghrapically the old BL maps, and EBG. And improve keeps and towers. Leaving the map as the original.

Sorry my poor english.

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Posted by: Orpheal.8263

Orpheal.8263

My personal Top 5 I want to mention before the end of the deadline:
(Why hasn’t this thread beem more communicated, that here is such an important thing running right now??)

1) Don’t remove the Desert Borderlands, FIX THEM. Reduce their size by approx 25-33%, they are WAY TOO LARGE. Remove Barricades or reduce their Health, so that they can can faster destroyed by Roamers, or better, put in CHARACTER PROGRESSION through CLASS SPECIFIC WVW MASTERIES to allow certain classes that are suited for that role to easier break through barricades.
In general, WVW NEEDS ALOT MORE CHARACTER PROGRESSION and class specific roles finally. People have thousands of unspent WvW Skill Points already, due to there not being enough Character Progression in WvW to spent these points on ….
Remove the Laser Event.
Work on a Rotation System that will make it possible to switch out different Borderlands and work on more different Borderland Theme (like 4 different ones that will rotate then (Desert Borderland, Reworked Alpine Borderland, Jungle/Swamp Borderland and Lakeside Borderland to also have somethign that supports strogner underwater combat again …
WvW NEEDS DIVERSITY, if this game mode should stay strong and interestign enough for many years to come…

2) Rewards, that is what the april patch wil lstand for..
WvW needs a complete overhaul of its reward system, so that it become equal to the reward systems of the other game modes in regard of:

  • Gold making
  • Unique Rewards thast you can earn only with WvW
  • Legendary Rewards (say you can earn only Legendary Accessoires like Rings/Earrings/Amulets through WvW and the help of JEWELER/CHEF 500!!! …)
  • Make contant WvW Tournaments, just you you are making constant PvP Leagues now and add to WvW Tournaments a similar rewardign system like that of the PvP League
  • Give WvW WvW Reward Tracks similar to the PvP ones instead of this silly 10000 Rank system with its gazillions of recycled ranks and replaced the Rank system with an actual real Rank/Reputation System, that actually is more, than just a WExp grind, but actually stands also for the experience of the player in WvW just like the ranks in the pvp league stand out for the skill and experience of a player in that game mode.
    WvW ranks in WvW so far just say only something out about how much that player grinded WExp in the game and that most likely in EotM cycling around in a zerg for an eternity…
  • Give players a straightforward way in WvW to earn also Ascended Equipment in WvW, that isn’t RNG based … to help reduciong the Ascneded gearign grind and makign GW2 again a game, that is also Alt Character friendly for players with many characters like the game was, before ascended stuff got implemented!!!

3) WvW Balance and QoL changes … is something that can be achieved ultimatively only, if you would begin please finally to SPLIT SKILLS and TRAITS for the game Modes.
WvW needs to have its very own skills and traits, that are exclusively balanced around the fact, that huge amoutns of players can and will clash into each other.
If you don’t want to split skills for all three game modes, then make at least a split between PvEvP & WvW and also implement for PvE and WvW please finally Ascended Runes and Ascended Sigils to give these two modes also in regard of character progression a system, that allows these game modes to easily exchange out character builds, just like in PvP, where you can change and equip everything on demand. This simplicity is also needed for PvE and WvW, espcialyl when combined with a TEMPLATE SYSTEM to become able to exchange out your builds on simple button press with registered saved builds that you saved up in the template system for your account so that a window pops up that allows you to select your saved up builds. Bug QoL improvement, from which the whole game could and will profitate only fron, especially WvW where you need to adapt more oftenly your builds on the fly …especially when playing a class, that by design can wield only 1 weapon at a time and its just annoying to have to manually equip and reslot everythign with these classes, when it should be just enough to press 1 button, select your build that you want to play ad the game changes then everythign for you instantly, without that you need to do anythign over the menues manually for ages long first ….

4) Fixing the Population/nightcapping Issues..
Simply done by finally giving up this senseless Server vs. Server system and changing WvW into a FACTION SYSTEM based on 3 Factions which share their players from ALL SERVERS. This will ensure, that on all sides will be always enough players, regardless if you have to sleep now or not, you can be sure that when you sleep, your hard work on your side won’t be in vain, because someone else will be there at the tiem when you sleep, for that it is daytime at the moment from an other server that shares with you your faction….
With mixed up playrs from all servrs, theres then no population issue anymore, because Anet can then merge the lower pop serves with those with more players together to ensure, that all three sides will always have nearly the same amount of players. Server pride will get replaced anyways then through Faction Pride, when every player accoutn can have a personal Reputation Vallue towards one of those factions to work on a personal Faction WvW Reward Track then to express that pride towards th faction that you like the most.

5) Scoring System needs to get fixed to ensure better and more fairer matchmakings and to encourage,m like it has been said, active battles and not cowardish gaming by running away from battles and lettign passive systems do the scoring…
A scoring system needs to be 100% pro active, so that only that faction wins, which takes on proactively the initiative and battles alot, searchign the confrontations.
There shouldn’t exist any passive ticking points in the score system.
Only active things in combat should really give points for your score of your side.
Stuff like defeating players, like claiming locations or defending them successfully, where defending should give more points, than claiming, because defendign is alot harder, than claiming locations and to give people a good incentive to move their butts to locations to actually give their best to defend them also … thus defendign somethign shoudl be also more rewardign than claimign something ….
People still let places way too carelessly get undefended claimed, because no one cares enough for it, because its easier to claim x locations in the same time, than to defend 1 location due to it taking also a long time, until locations become so good, that you can actually defend them for a longer time..and even then are just a handful of trebuchets in an unreachable place enough to make all your defending instantly void again ….
—-

From these 5 points are most important for me the numbers 1-3

  • Character Progression, Class Specific Masteries to give Classes in WvW own Roles, more Stuff for WvW Points (Reinforcement Mastery, Assault Mastery, just some older things that come into mind, that haven’ been implemented yet that were once seeable in one of Hughs WvW Videos of the past.)
  • Complete overworked Reward System more similar to PvP Reward Tracks, that provides good reasons to play WvW and that helps in making GW2 again a more Alt Character friendly game with more straighforward Ascended aquisition, lesser RNG and with legendary Accessoires its own legendary unique equipment to earn, while becoming also in regard of Gold earning eqal to PvP/PvE standards
  • Own WvW Balance and QoL improvements, that help the whole game, especially in this case WvW, where you need to change alot your builds. A Build Template System and somethign like Ascneded Runes/Sigils for an accountbound character progression system similar to the easy build changign system of PvP is LONG OVERDUE
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside

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Posted by: inubasiri.8745

inubasiri.8745

1) Server loyalty – It’s not good that people leave low WvW populated servers to tier 1-2s. From the other side: there’s no real competition or bragging rights if all you ever do is face the same two servers over and over when you know that they just have more / less people, with some weeks’ exceptions where you go up and get beaten into not wanting to even play WvW that week (outmatched mostly by numbers sometime during the day / night) – or down to take over the two lower tier servers. The first season WvW tourney (in which I participated daily) has been like that for me. So…

1.a) WvW should not punish people for staying on low WvW population servers. Make matchmaking closer to EotM with balanced color distribution based on population and performance, randomize those weekly to an extent (that can even become a league, where you have to co-op and coordinate cross-server, instead of just different enemies to fight, you get different allies).

1.b) Also no WvW-based server bonuses, that just adds to migrations and desertions. If you want to keep them, base them off a guild’s or player’s WvW participation or keep them with the EotM color’s points instead of server as the defining factor (if 1.a comes into effect.)

2) WvW / PvP / PvE consistency – WvW shyly seeps into PvE, but not really. Either…

2.a) Integrate WvW with PvP and PvE. As in (certain / ranked) PvP matches contributing to PPT as well as successful clearing of challenging PvE content (raids / fractals).
Orr…
2.b) Isolate WvW from PvP and PvE. No PvE server-wide rewards based off PPT accumulation. No PvE in WvW maps. Guild upgrades / WvW consumables / Ascended equip attainable from within WvW. For example by defending your guild’s claimed objectives. Possibly reward tracks like in PvP.

3) Ranks – WvW ranks were good for a time, but now virtually everyone has more points than they can spend on traits. Either add more traits (like increased magic find for killing players, increased efficiency of stability when zergs collide, reduced effects of enemy CC in zerg battles, etc.) or make the WvW ranks into unlocks and let players choose which traits to use for the day / week from a limited pool (say – 6 trait trees or 30 trait pips).

4) Cleaning up – Greater focus on fixing minor map problems, such as glitches, siege placement revamping, siege range and positioning possibilities revamping based off players’ experience over the long three years.

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Posted by: Strige.9382

Strige.9382

Hello Mike O Brien,
we had told you what we need on WvW for long time, now this game getting collaps for your mistake… so please don’t tell us:
«speak now or forever hold your peace.»
You should listen more the community WvW, like now.
after this, i want show you what you need to do for try to riraise up the players in game.

1. Stability & skill balance
- Just bring back the old stability and don’t touch the CC skill that we have. Fix all bugs that we have on class. Damage from arrow cart scalable with personal power is ok but mortar skill shouldn’t be scalable.

2. Fix or revert DBL
-Bring back the old alpine borderlands with old spot for build sieges inside keeps and towers.
There is no reason for skritt and centaur camps to exist in WvW so remove it.
You can put there 2 towers and who will take both get more point from PPK. Old bloodlust from the ruins give us only more point on personal statistic.
Give us the old system for upgrade and the old WP inside keep… anyway you can bring the new system introduced with HoT (like sentry etc etc) and all upgrades from guild but nerf its.

3. Rewards
-Like PvP system (rewards also for scout please)

4. Population balance
-Remove Edge of the mist or make it aviable only when all borderlands have queue.

5. Scoring
-More point from PPK (see above). The server that have outnumbered get more point from kill (~ 5) and add on them some buff like more HP, thougness, power etc etc.

….by the way, i’m sorry for my bad english.

(edited by Strige.9382)

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Posted by: Silverstone.4539

Silverstone.4539

“outnumbered” bonus should also give 100% damage bonus to everything, NPCs included.

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Posted by: Liston.9708

Liston.9708

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta). I’m sure WvW’s lack of rewards and other things were a factor but that was a primary issue at the time.

Agreed – it is the HOT and dbl talk of being the ruin that is wrong. It certainly did not help, but there was a lot of attrition before HOT oh and clamor ing for new maps…..

It isn’t wrong, you see, these things (PPK, Stabs, siege humping no GvG ladder) being wrong made people leave… THEN the DBLS made the rest leave… THEY BOTH ruined the game.. not just one or the other. Players just started leaving even faster than they did before over the DBLS in hordes.

And you really believe your guild mate 60% of all those people will return by bringing back the old BLs? No doubt SOME would return, but no where near that. I personally think the stab change making it a pirate ship Mexican stand off of a whole lot of standing around was the 1 biggest thing that caused people to stop playing….

Who is talking about just my guild? I have friends from both NA and EU servers ( all tiers) in MANY guilds. You have to look at the very MANY different players that left, not just one group. You have to look at the rate they left, when they left and why they left. They will tell you if you ask them. I still keep in contact with many of them, as we play many games together not just this one. Many of the guilds on this game have played numerous games together. One of my first guilds was formed on campus at UT Austin, and not only do we play games together ..we party as well. Everyone still talks to each other.. same guild rivalries on this game are already started on DBO, for example, the players are not leaving individually here, they are leaving in mass.

Many players will not go to the DBL at all, and will not touch this game again until they are gone. It was " the straw" that broke their back, an insult. They asked for so much for years and were ignored and given that gimmicky bouncy mess instead. THESE PLAYERS WERE IN BETA and let them know they didn’t like the maps.. then they put them in the game anyways. The stab issue is annoying as hell, but you can still win a fight even if you are being thrown around, but the DBL map terrain/ banners/ airship/ fog/ guild upgrades/ NPC’s/ auto WP/ all the nonsense made it unplayable for many. They stopped logging in all together. Small guilds feel robbed, large guilds are not even having fun anymore, scouts had everything they do in game taken from them.. In addition, PPK has never been given enough priority in a PvP game mode and it is sad.

Your guild mate Kalkz said 60% of the people that left would return based on the BL change. That is very hard to believe kitten many left even before there was a bl change. believe what you will, but that is a preposterous claim. No need to write another novel bringing in a million other factors that were not part of the 60% claim…..

YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→most likely YB

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Posted by: Thundar.3910

Thundar.3910

I spend 80% of engaged time in fights trying to just control my character. I am pushed, pulled, rooted, slowed, chilled, blinded, knocked back and knocked down. I need to spec just to keep myself mobile. I do nothing for my team any longer. I provide some damage, IF I can move. Having total loss of control of my character is not a fun experience.

I do not know how you can address it or if you’re going to do anything about it. This is not fun.

Keep Calm and Conquer
When you are out numbered, and the situation is hopeless, you have no option-you must attack

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Posted by: Shukriyya.7629

Shukriyya.7629

Didn’t have time to read everything, will get back to that later. Here’s my thoughts:

- Bring back the old borderland map and go back to the old upgrade system. Maps shouldn’t be playing themselves when no one is there – it makes playing defense pointless. There’s less of an incentive to defend a keep when you can just flip it back after the enemy zerg is gone and still have your waypoint. So that means that automatic upgrades kill scouting and defending (for me, anyway). Also, every server needs to be able to build a waypoint in every keep.

- No shrines/traps on normal wvw maps. I don’t care if you keep them in EotM as it’s a pve map anyway.

- Give small guilds a reasonable way to get their +5 back – e.g. by scaling guild hall capture and upgrade costs to roster size. Introduce smaller guild hall maps for this new system, so that the huge maps are only available to guilds who pay full price. I vote for the secret cat/quaggan cave from DBL as the map for the smallest guild hall.

- Introduce a wvw reward track similar to the pvp one.

- Skill balance. Despite the name, elite specs shouldn’t be superior to the other specs. Feels like p2w at the moment.

- Get rid of the resource node generators. Having entire maps without trees, plants and ore makes them lifeless. Instead, introduce a wider variety of possible nodes to spawn on the maps.

- Bring back siege commander spoons!

RoF

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Posted by: Ben K.6238

Ben K.6238

  • WvW skill balance. First because it’s easier than the rest and needs to be done to make fighting players fun again.
  • Scoring change. Got to happen to make the system fair, which has to happen before:
  • Better rewards. Make winning a week mean something.
  • PvP reward track for killing players. Leave loot and champion bags as NPC kill rewards only.
  • More map variety. Three identical borderlands might be more ‘fair’ but it’s hideously boring

(edited by Ben K.6238)

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Posted by: mindcrime.2019

mindcrime.2019

My top 5.
1: Fix stability
2. Siege Limit
3.(should be first) Bring back the alpine Borderland
4.(should be first as well…hell all should be first) Rewards(they are basically non-existent), if a PVE player was getting jacked like the WvW you wouldn’t have a game. With that in mind auto loot would be nice.
5. Reward fighting and cause negative results for hiding in keeps/towers, etc. Kinda like dishonor for pvp.
Think there are a lot of great ideas here but I play WvW to fight not to wave from a tower or keep or do PVE stuff.

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Posted by: lil devils x.6071

lil devils x.6071

bring the old maps back
60% of people who left the game will come back
problems solved
no need to type 100 paragraphs

No they won’t – many left before HOT when alpine BL was in play….. How soon we all forget…

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta). I’m sure WvW’s lack of rewards and other things were a factor but that was a primary issue at the time.

Agreed – it is the HOT and dbl talk of being the ruin that is wrong. It certainly did not help, but there was a lot of attrition before HOT oh and clamor ing for new maps…..

It isn’t wrong, you see, these things (PPK, Stabs, siege humping no GvG ladder) being wrong made people leave… THEN the DBLS made the rest leave… THEY BOTH ruined the game.. not just one or the other. Players just started leaving even faster than they did before over the DBLS in hordes.

And you really believe your guild mate 60% of all those people will return by bringing back the old BLs? No doubt SOME would return, but no where near that. I personally think the stab change making it a pirate ship Mexican stand off of a whole lot of standing around was the 1 biggest thing that caused people to stop playing….

Who is talking about just my guild? I have friends from both NA and EU servers ( all tiers) in MANY guilds. You have to look at the very MANY different players that left, not just one group. You have to look at the rate they left, when they left and why they left. They will tell you if you ask them. I still keep in contact with many of them, as we play many games together not just this one. Many of the guilds on this game have played numerous games together. One of my first guilds was formed on campus at UT Austin, and not only do we play games together ..we party as well. Everyone still talks to each other.. same guild rivalries on this game are already started on DBO, for example, the players are not leaving individually here, they are leaving in mass.

Many players will not go to the DBL at all, and will not touch this game again until they are gone. It was " the straw" that broke their back, an insult. They asked for so much for years and were ignored and given that gimmicky bouncy mess instead. THESE PLAYERS WERE IN BETA and let them know they didn’t like the maps.. then they put them in the game anyways. The stab issue is annoying as hell, but you can still win a fight even if you are being thrown around, but the DBL map terrain/ banners/ airship/ fog/ guild upgrades/ NPC’s/ auto WP/ all the nonsense made it unplayable for many. They stopped logging in all together. Small guilds feel robbed, large guilds are not even having fun anymore, scouts had everything they do in game taken from them.. In addition, PPK has never been given enough priority in a PvP game mode and it is sad.

Your guild mate Kalkz said 60% of the people that left would return based on the BL change. That is very hard to believe kitten many left even before there was a bl change. believe what you will, but that is a preposterous claim. No need to write another novel bringing in a million other factors that were not part of the 60% claim…..

You should understand part of that 60% claim of his claim is including reverting WvW to Pre HoT, and he is discussing players that have left since HoT. Alpine maps w/ Pre HOT WvW is what is being asked for to be clear. This includes removing auto WP, banners, airship and everything else I was discussing ( Even giving back the small guilds guild upgrades they stole from them.) 60% of those who left after HoT, yes would return if you do that, as what is being discussed right now is the game bleeding players at such a rate it is considered unplayable in it’s current state.

Now if they actually go back and do what players asked for instead in a way that makes the different types of players content. ( There are ways they have to just do the right one and not claim there is only one way to do things) . For example, forcing server mergers taking the players choice out of what team they are playing with/ on out of it to solve population issues will just make a ton of players rage quit on the spot. However, allowing them to have a choice and say in the matter by giving them options to choose where they play and maintain their server communities they have worked so hard for, you will not lose those players. ( such as keeping the current servers as PvE servers, but adding WVW servers in addition, they have to choose from to accomplished that, for example). It is all about HOW you make the changes and what those changes are. Not just disregarding players and making them feel marginalized.

Even with the DBL situation, they should move the maps to PvE or EoTM so players that like the maps can still have them to play with and those who do not can play on the other maps. The problem was they tried to force an entirely new style of play on players who did not enjoy that style of play AFTER they had already expressed they would not play it if they did instead of listening to them.

AT this point players are so upset by their actions, they have to understand " fixing the maps" will just make more leave and those that left not come back at all because that ISN’T what they asked for. This time, they have to do something as impactful as roll back the maps and make new maps to even get their attention anymore as they have given up on them, and for good reason. I am getting to that point myself as well, and tbh, if the ALpine isn’t made #1 priority this time, and immediately, I will throw in the towel as well and join my friends elsewhere, as I would rather play with them than without them. This game isn’t entertaining enough to run around like I am in slow motion through ugly, empty deserts. ( No, I do not find deserts to be " beautiful" Flowers, greenery, sunshine, unicorns and rainbows are beautiful. I honestly feel like my own back yard is prettier than the desert maps.)

[KILL]Killing Tiers Leader [TOON] Toons of Terror Leader [NEWS This Just In Leader
WvW / PVP ONLY

(edited by lil devils x.6071)

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Posted by: Pardishar.6185

Pardishar.6185

1.) Fix Stability

2.) Bring back the Alpine Borderland

3.) Rank Rewards (maybe a merchant where you can trade your rank points in something useful items like: WvW Tickets, Account bound Buff food and recipes, and Account bound Runes and Sigils (WvW player haven´t interest to farm Dragon stand etc))

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

I spend 80% of engaged time in fights trying to just control my character. I am pushed, pulled, rooted, slowed, chilled, blinded, knocked back and knocked down. I need to spec just to keep myself mobile. I do nothing for my team any longer. I provide some damage, IF I can move. Having total loss of control of my character is not a fun experience.

I do not know how you can address it or if you’re going to do anything about it. This is not fun.

Yup 1000%

If you go into my post history you can find my post here that mentions immunity timers added to condition and control effects. Check it out.

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

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Posted by: Deaeira.2651

Deaeira.2651

My priorities:

1) Fix class balance – less CC (especially aoe CC like DH’s Hunter’s Ward) and balance the power creep introduced with HoT – there are much more people in WvW zergs than in other games which amplifies imbalances extremely

2) Fix population imbalance, but consider server pride. Even if you disband servers altogether, at least create a guild per server and put people in there, as soon as they have entered WvW

3) Overhaul the desert borderlands: don’t revive the alpine borderlands, but make its advantages work in the DBL: improve the importance of roaming, make keeps smaller, make the environment less of an obstacle and a bit simpler (e.g. finding the stairs down on top of the fire keep without the map is still a problem for me, there are so many stairs around wind keep, i’m always running up the wrong ones and they all look the same to me) and with more open spaces

4) Consider big and small groups for balancing

5) Rework WvW guild upgrades that they are available for small scale (<10 ppl) guilds

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Posted by: Lydon.1890

Lydon.1890

Please bring the Alpine Borderlands back. That would be a great first step towards improving WvW. I think I’d cry with happiness. While I totally appreciate the effort that went into the visual design of the Desert Borderlands, the Alpine Borderlands were a lot more fun to play.

I understand that WvW could use something fresh every once in a while to prevent people from getting bored, but I believe this could easily be achieved with the introduction of new siege weapons and game mechanics on existing maps. For example, the Orb and Quaggan Island may not have worked as well as you’d have liked, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a new mechanic that would provide an interesting shake-up without frustrating players in the process. Even small visual enhancements every once in a while would keep WvW feeling fresh without requiring too much effort. The maps wouldn’t feel static.

I’d also love a revert back to Friday night resets. I really looked forward to hopping on Teamspeak with a beer after a long week of work and jamming some WvW.

Once these issues are sorted, I’d have full confidence that the team is listening to player feedback and has the ability to tackle greater issues affecting the game, such as class/population balance.

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Posted by: Trepidation Lost.3469

Trepidation Lost.3469

add back alpine bl…

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Posted by: Dusty Moon.4382

Dusty Moon.4382

Remove EotM.

There are more players playing EoTM (especially on the green side) 24/7 than there are on a few servers entirely.

We need those players integrated back into the normal maps before whatever you have planned for a population balance fix.

Removing eotm won’t improve wvw unfortunately or force players back into wvw.

WvW needs to stand on its own merits. You don’t kill a popular pvp game mode in hopes to get a handful back into wvw on your server.

WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone, just like eotm doesn’t appeal to everyone, so we don’t need to create more negative feelings toward the pvp side of the game by removing one for another.

Instead of thinking this way, we should look at the reasons why eotm has done so well and apply some of those elements to wvw.

Why has EotM done so well? They nerfed a lot of champ trains about the time EotM came out so those players migrated to where they can run in a circle getting champ bags. True story.

Let EotM stay. I honestly don’t want players with that style of play in WvW.

Because players are still there playing.

I know you don’t like eotm, but let’s not carry elitist attitudes and insult players who enjoy a game mode. We want to build the pvp community, not divide it.

What game mode is EotM? OH, I know, PPT is everything. Well, that is in WvW now.

EotM should be scrapped.

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Posted by: Osu.6307

Osu.6307

That was because many people left when Anet changed stability and essentially rendered melee a second tier group of classes in WvW behind casters who are still dominating the meta even now (i.e. pirate-ship meta).

LOL, yes “melee” classes are second tier, poor guardians how do they cope, the lack of objectivity and hypocrisy is amazing, for second (or rather third tier) take a look at how engy/ranger/mes & thief have fared in large scale WvW for the entire game, at best bit parts at worst non-existent, where were the cries about those, ah that’s right nowhere, that “melee” classes were totally overrepresented, totally OP, for much of the game (and guards still are) was just fine.

As for the old stability it was just as broken as the current system, which is why you had 60 man “melee” blobs rolling face across the keyboard with unstoppable amounts of stab that would not be stripped & that rendered supposed strong long cooldown hard CC skills useless, it says a lot about how bad the WvW playerbase is, how similar it is to the mindless drones in Silverwastes, that some think a system was “good” with a mechanic so broken that it rendered hard CC useless and made ‘positioning’ and pushing braindead easy.

Lemme guess. You main a zerker LB ranger?

Your arguments make no sense. The old stability was not OP or broken, it was simply something that made melee viable in wvw. A 60-man zerg is going to roll over anything whether it is mostly melee or ranged, so how does that have anything to do with stability. I sense this is just another rant from someone who was repeatedly killed by a guild group that practiced hard and successfully honed their skills to such a degree that they could take on blobs twice their size. There is absolutely nothing mindless or braindead about that. If it was so easy, why didn’t you do it?

Osu