Guild Wars 2

Hey guys, I just wanted to get a feel for what people think about the current state of WvW.

I will start the thread by sharing my thoughts.

Back when I started playing (pretty much right after release) WvW was really fun because you would have very large, drawn-out fights that occurred over a big area. After the nerfs to AOE damage however, it seems that the fights changed to much quicker and more concentrated zerg clashes.

I have only played a little WvW recently but I think it is not as fun as it used to be right after the launch of the game.

The way that AOE damage is inflicted for one seems to me very counter-intuitive and frustrating. It is weird having meteors falling on you and lightning striking everywhere and you are taking no damage while the guy next to you just instantly keels over. It is also frustrating if you are that guy that instantly keels over because there doesn’t seem to be any counter play to that. You just basically got screwed by RNG.

I also don’t like that the fights are so quick and so decisive (in my limited experience). You hardly get to use any skills (and there doesn’t even seem to be a point to dodging) when you are fighting in a zerg and the only thing that determines which side wins is which side had the bigger zerg.

Now, I am sure there were good reasons why Arena Net decided to make the changes they did which resulted in this zerg-centric focus in WvW. However, I personally do not really like the way things are right now in WvW. Perhaps some other changes to AOE damage can be made so that it still discourages clumping (which I think is the primary reason for having AOE damage in the first place is it not?) while still not being overly strong when stacked? Maybe like not allow two of the same skills to stack in the same area or something. Or maybe there are some other changes that can be made to de-emphasize stacking in WvW that is not related to AOE.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts about the current state of WvW and you can obviously disagree with me. So, what do you guys think about WvW? Do you like how it is currently being played? Do you think zergs are fun? and what kind of changes do you think can be made to make it more fun (without adding extra features/content)?

I don’t really enjoy zergs much, neither fighting them or running in one. I like to scout and do my own thing. However, I know many people enjoy them, and I understand why. I think they’re a staple of WvW. In fact, few things brighten my day more than getting my solo roamer beat down by five foes and seeing them turn around just in time to see their lives flash before their eyes as a sea of my friends comes and washes over them, rezzing me on the fly. It gives me that warm, fuzzy feeling.

Probably the issue you refer to is the incredible condition spam that’s common now and really demolishes you if you get anywhere near the center of the hurricane. Aside from that, the only problem I see vis-à-vis zergs is the PvD issue. I don’t think you should be able to do any damage at all to gates with ordinary weapons, only siege. I also don’t think golems should be able to use portals or waypoints, or benefit from any sort of quickness or swiftness. Reinforcing structures is pointless when a 40-man lawnmower melts it down in seconds with no need for a strategy.

The difference between launch and now is that people have (on average) gotten better and more coordinated. Those zerg fights that lasted ages back during the first few months? Those were uncoordinated and were just a bunch of clueless people on both ends flinging stuff at each other. There were no commanders leading them, they weren’t on teamspeak to coordinate their attacks and everyone was in it for themselves. It was mindless.

Now? Coordinated, on voice-coms and people working as a team. Naturally, it means fights are more intense and fast paced making them end much quicker. You also get more bags now as a result. If I had to choose between the two, I pick the second (what it is now) because I get very fun, intense fights at a higher frequency.

I also have absolutely no idea what aoe changes you are talking about. The only one I know off is when they implemented the 5 target limit to several healing traits and warrior banners…. which helped discourage the stacking phenomenon at that time.

Well, I actually don’t think its the conditions that are the problem for me per se. It’s just the random way that AOE dmg seems to work. I think most AOE spells have a limit of 5 ppl that it hits and so that’s why people clump so much to avoid a lot of the damage in large fights in WvW. So what happens is that some ppl in a fight end up dying instantly (because they are the unlucky few that took multiple AOE’s to the face) while the others, that are also in the AOE mind you, take no damage at all and come out unscathed!

I actually see this a lot with warriors in large zergs. At one time I would have like 3 warriors spin through me and be downed instantly but at another time, I have 3 warriors spin through me and I take no damage (because the guy in front of me took all the damage). To me this feels weird and frustrating.

@Deli The AOE limit to 5 people (of most skills) is what I am referencing. I don’t believe this limit was in place right after launch which is the reason there were long, drawn out fights without always having a decisive victor.

Also, I don’t think voice coordination has really added any “strategy” to WvW in terms of head to head fighting. There is no way to get the zerg in any kind of military formation. From my experience it is always just blob warfare nowadays (mainly because of the 5 target limit of the AOE spells imo).

Don’t get me wrong, I am not against people traveling in groups. That actually makes sense and is a good tactic (even in the real world). What I don’t like is the stacking/clumping and how it mitigates damage.

I kinda enjoy zerg vs zerg or group vs group. I also enjoy smaller groups vs smaller groups. As long as it is not one giant blob of 60, o not enjoy that.
I also find it pretty fun when 3 zergs collide in open field, some hectic fighting as a result.

Vladican.9620:

@Deli The AOE limit to 5 people (of most skills) is what I am referencing. I don’t believe this limit was in place right after launch which is the reason there were long, drawn out fights without always having a decisive victor.

Also, I don’t think voice coordination has really added any “strategy” to WvW in terms of head to head fighting. There is no way to get the zerg in any kind of military formation. From my experience it is always just blob warfare nowadays (mainly because of the 5 target limit of the AOE spells imo).

The aoe limit was in place since before launch. Those long, drawn out fights were a result of player stupidity due to inexperience. It is also quite clear that you haven’t even tried using your server’s voice-coms for WvW. I suggest you give it a try before you make more erroneous statements.

Fun! This is Guild WARS right? A small group fight is not a war, its a fight.

People say that zerging is mindless and boring and it can be, but I’ve been in massive zerg vs zerg fights that were lots of fun, sometimes even use tactics such as flanking to win the battle =)

Reminds me of fantasy movies like Chronicles of Narnia or LoTR with mass scale wars.

And to say that voice com does not work is just….. I don’t know what to say about that, it’s 100% wrong.

zerging is boring and stupid. it doesn’t improve your skill and its some kind of dumbing down the entire server (people tend to follow blue tacos everywhere even when the enemies invades their own tower and keep). not to mention it is not fun if you have sub par internet connection , not everybody have access to a fast and reliable internet connection.

if i want to run with sea of player i would rather join world boss train or something, much more rewarding than running with zerg in wvw.

the only thing that is fun with zerg is destroying one (its always hilarious how stupid people can be)

hellsmachine.4085:

Fun! This is Guild WARS right? A small group fight is not a war, its a fight.

People say that zerging is mindless and boring and it can be, but I’ve been in massive zerg vs zerg fights that were lots of fun, sometimes even use tactics such as flanking to win the battle =)
(…)

Open fild tatics are mandatory, veils, portals, CC, etc the more organized more fun players get, the only thing i hate on WvW is the 4 vs ~80, or the cap n leave then retake redundancy, WvW has way to much redundancy, wich IMO is due castle design are that AB shrines now with walls, i can imagine how wars were if castle had more sections like true castle/towers…

Limiting aoe was one of the few things anet listened too, and as usual was a big mistake.

Only hit’s 5, well that’s not aoe is it then.
But because there are so many players in wvw, people started to complain about necro marks and ele fields covering the map and how one player is able to hold back a much larger group whilst defending a tower.
So anet introduce the 5 player hit limit. All those players rejoiced and well zergs were laughing. previously a zerg had to move out of aoe, now they can stand in aoe all day long and dance.

Who’s fault is it really, the aoe skill, or the fact that an entire zerg are unable to see and move our of a red circle.

But to make up for this anet introduced +80% dmg on arrow carts!

I usually solo roam, but I like a bit of zerging now and again Theres something quite satisfying about karma training around when you are in the mood for playing but not really in the mood for paying full attention, which solo play requires.

In regard to fights ending too quickly, thats probably just a result of the constant imbalance in numbers. If you’re in a random pug zerg, the chances of you meeting an opposing pug zerg of equal numbers away from any towers or keeps and without any large guild groups around is really pretty small. One side always has the upper hand in one way or another making fights end quickly and desisively most of the time.

GW2 in general has pretty fast kill times anyway.. is a lot of games you cant solo burst someone can in a few seconds, but here its very possible. The game just has a high damage to armour ratio I guess, and its meant to be balanced by active defences such as dodging, but in zergs theres so much going on that doesnt quite work and people just die all over the place :P

There should be incentives (objectives) promoting both a large force and several roaming small force groups on every map. Right now it seems that there is incentive to have a large group roll up a map and a few roamers for yak slapping and camp flipping but no real need for group v group (or even 2 group v 2 group).

Make that change and the zerg sizes will get smaller and diversity of play will go up.

Also, while I like a zerg fight what is the ideal size of a zerg for fun?
When is it so big that it is silly or that many classes no longer scale?
For me 12-20 per side is about right.
Again, this is for a zerg versus a havoc party or gvg roam.

hellsmachine.4085:

Fun! This is Guild WARS right? A small group fight is not a war, its a fight.

People say that zerging is mindless and boring and it can be, but I’ve been in massive zerg vs zerg fights that were lots of fun, sometimes even use tactics such as flanking to win the battle =)

Reminds me of fantasy movies like Chronicles of Narnia or LoTR with mass scale wars.

^This. Hour long fights for SMC, hills and bay, these are epic and mostly driven by zergs.

I think people are tired of defending stuff that just gets flipped in the off hours.

The only things people still show up in mass for for are karma train megazorgs and (effective) zergbusting groups.

@OP: Nerfs to AOE damage? Are you kidding? AOE damage is already incredibly strong and was buffed quite a bit by changes to the necro class.

It is fun for a while then it becomes incredibly boring. As soon as the PvDoor starts even my small amount of interest in running with larger groups quickly evaporates and I do something else.

The only time a zerg isnt fun is when its so big, so massive that gameplay literally break due to lag. Yes yes, 2v60 sucks when you get steamrolled but it happens, get over it. I enjoy 10v10 as much as I enjoy 50v50. PvD is boring as hell but meh what are you supposed to do? Either the enemy isnt there, they are complete cowards or they simply dont have the manpower. Nothing is going to fix that and its not like you’re going to choose not to PvD. Its even more boring to stand and stare at a wall, hoping the enemy will try to knock it down.

The problem is when its so many people that there is a 10s skill lag on everything. That’s like 150+ peeps from all three servers inside Stonemist. But to be fair, Anet seems to have helped that quite a bit through last year. It used to be completely unplayable in any large engagement.

I think the core mechanics of WvW is in a very good state at the moment, with one notable exception – the scoring system. Most of which suck the fun out of it is controlled by/due to players – stacked servers, major imbalances between guilds, night shifts, etc. The scoring system however is not and only Anet can fix that.

I think they should just amplify the AoE damage based on the number of people in the given area.

It still hits 5 people, but if 50 of you are clumped together, the 5 it hits are pretty much dead on the first drop, and more than likely second group of 5 it hits too.

My opinion is a bit lopsided as im the one thats dropping the AoE and I’m pretty sure many people would have an issue of an AoE/quickness combo that could possibly kill off half a zerg in a matter of seconds.

I think most people enjoy zergs because that’s how most people tend to operate in WvW. Those who like small groups, roam in small groups. Those who decide to keep the numbers down can go tagless. The only thing I don’t find fun about zerging is the lag battle in SMC where you cant fire a single healing spell off.

I find zerg fights fun. I disagree it’s mindless – especially for the backline. An organised group of 50 vs another organised group of 50 can be an intense and drawn out battle.

Bombsaway.7198:

Also, while I like a zerg fight what is the ideal size of a zerg for fun?
When is it so big that it is silly or that many classes no longer scale?
For me 12-20 per side is about right.
Again, this is for a zerg versus a havoc party or gvg roam.

Last night, my guild fought a 3-hour running battle over redvale, redlake and hills against the Vizunah zerg.

It was epic.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go and empty my loot bags.

Map jumps aggravated the issue…..its quite annoying….
Totally destroyed any non zerg tactic even out of prime time..

LordByron.8369:

Map jumps aggravated the issue…..its quite annoying….
Totally destroyed any non zerg tactic even out of prime time..

If you look at the map, you’ll see it isn’t four separate maps, it’s one big one. Server limitations forced Anet to zone it into four instances but it doesn’t change that fact.

It’s just the same as the main world map where no-one complains that it’s possible to move from Tyria to Ascalon.

The only real issue is that server queues make movement across the zones difficult sometimes.

Justifications doesn t make it any different.

Map jumping results in bigger zergs……making everything less fun.

“Luckily” the population dropped so hard that even on T1 you can get fast in EB.

EU T1 level haven’t ever been this low. We just lose everything in EB so map jumpers can come and cap everything back. Germans don’t even try to attack if you have 5 players and couple carts in towers. They just go and find some empty tower. WWW is so kitten now.

Nothing wrong with zergs. They are an entry point for new players and casuals for the game. All game modes like WvW need zergs, they are a training grounds if nothing else.

The problem is that because the game system favors blob style play so much, because there has been a lack of raid frames, because the reward structure favors zerging, etc the game never developed skill wise. We have few organized guild zergs/gvgers, we have almost no small man groups, and we have a handful of solo’ers.

WvW is static because of this. A game should never just be zerging and blobbing should just not be part of any game at all.

I have zero respect for most people in this game because they participate in this mind numbing version of what WvW could be, all because anet tossed a few meaningless and bland carrots at them.

Lots of problems with zergs (not zerging as a concept but how it plays out in GW2)
1. Lag
2. Some classes scale better for large warfare than others (ranger doesn’t scale. Warrior scales outrageously well as does guardian).
3. You get fewer fights to pick
4. You get more PvD as the enemy will hop maps if the zerg is too big (now you have a karma train)
5. It leads to queues and that is boring
6. It leads to maps feeling too crowded and too small (but make them bigger for the smaller servers and you would feel like you were running track to get place to place v fighting).

The answers to the problems are not easy though

I play the game exclusively for WvW. Anything outside of WvW is to get cash to spend on siege or gear to do better in WvW. I detest the term zerg and have done my best to help establish organized forces that are trained, equipped and capable of coordinating and communicating effectively. We function in a alliance of coordinated guilds and general population members that use voip, run under multiple commanders and spread or concentrate the force based on the task at hand. We win and lose like everyone else in the game but we don’t build mouth breathers that are clueless and " just follow the taco". If you have a bunch of people on your server that are all about follow the leader and mash buttons you are doing the community a disservice. I have grown to really appreciate larger scale fights as they can be more exciting and challenging when you and your opponent are capable thinkers and fighters. We started small and have grown. We still, as a guild, do small operations with 2 – 5 player teams but the challenges of battling on a larger scale are a lot of fun.

well this is wvw. zergs are part of such a gamemode. u cant remove it as it is a game mode where a large group fights another large group. and for me zergbusting with my guild is epic. i love massive battles, thats why i play wvw. wvw is also good for roaming, but because there is siegeing and taking keeps involved of course wvw is about large scale fights. its battle grounds and every game that has such a game mode will have zergs there.
maybe this game mode isnt for u ….the eotm maps could maybe be more fun for u. it is big and u can roam quiet well. so lets see. in another game im beta testing atm, the wvw map is sooooooo massive that it will take u quiet some time to get from 1 keep to another and also there is towns with pve content there. but also there the frontlines will always have zergs.
new larger maps could also help u to avaoid those zergs if u dont like them. but if u wanna take a keep with 5-10 people, u will have to expect that the enemy might shows up with 35+.
i only run with zergs that are arounnd 30+ if i want some karma and wxp, but i prefer running with my zergbusting guild. 15-20 people pushing 30-60 oh yeah that iiiiiis fun fun fun. if you are in a well coordinated guild, its possible to push an enemy zerg that outnumbers u greatly.
class balance is terrible though atm, so i do understand that wvw is becoming kinda stale as all u see is war/guard/ele/necro(GWEN train). the other classes are either utilitybots or rallybots and cant really contribute. so of course if u cant play your main class ell in a game mode u will not play it and are sorta forced to join the zerg.
we just need new maps and better wvw balance and not the spvp balance.

I like “zerging” (I dont consider ~20 a zerg) because:
- Its a lot harder to sync 20 peoples skills, cooldowns, strengths and weaknesses then 5. Sure large scale combat is spammy, but its emphasis is on team synchronisity rather then personal potential.
- I dont mind sacrificing personal “skill” for group effectiveness, if it means we are taking on 2 to 3 times our numbers. Or a skilled guild group.
- Bigger fights mean more action. Its more enjoyable then small scale. Its world vs world not team vs team.

Stand The Wall.6987:

- Bigger fights mean more action. Its more enjoyable then small scale. Its world vs world not team vs team.

Easily the silliest comment I have read today. WvW would be significantly better if a server is coordinating on all fronts from solo’ers, roaming groups and zergs. WvW has many tasks that need doing and it is not efficient to use zergs for all those tasks.

Better for who?

I hear the phrase ‘mindless zerging’ thrown around on the forums but I think you’ll find most zergs are far from ‘mindless’ and that most are coordinated. Zerging or blobbing is such a effective strategy because the potential for huge damage and protection it offers to players within. You deal more damage (might, fury & others not easily available to all classes) and heal more (multiple water blasts, cleansing, more boons etc). I do however think individual player skill starts to matter less as the size of the blob/zerg increases (30>). It ends up becoming a spam-fest of auto-attacks and aoe abilities to tag as much as possible to guarantee loot.
Nothing quite as frustrating when the server decides to zerg/blob up to 60~80 man flipping everything on the map and train you down but there is NOTHING in this game that gives you that sense of satisfaction when your guild (20~25 players) wipes that zerg.

The aoe cap on five targets was introduced to close the gap in discrepancy of damage between casters and melee players. In the beginning the cap on aoe was much higher (or didn’t have one) which meant elementalists casting meteor shower could absolutely destroy a group of players in the area of effect and melee based players couldn’t get close enough to damage them before being bombarded. Five-man limit on aoe meant no longer could few eles hold a choke against a blob and therefore meant the other classes besides the casters became viable in WvW.
Also the aoe limit serves to improve server side calculations/load which = better performance for the players.

Prevvy.1936:

I hear the phrase ‘mindless zerging’ thrown around on the forums but I think you’ll find most zergs are far from ‘mindless’ and that most are coordinated. Zerging or blobbing is such a effective strategy because the potential for huge damage and protection it offers to players within. You deal more damage (might, fury & others not easily available to all classes) and heal more (multiple water blasts, cleansing, more boons etc). I do however think individual player skill starts to matter less as the size of the blob/zerg increases (30>). It ends up becoming a spam-fest of auto-attacks and aoe abilities to tag as much as possible to guarantee loot.
Nothing quite as frustrating when the server decides to zerg/blob up to 60~80 man flipping everything on the map and train you down but there is NOTHING in this game that gives you that sense of satisfaction when your guild (20~25 players) wipes that zerg.

The aoe cap on five targets was introduced to close the gap in discrepancy of damage between casters and melee players. In the beginning the cap on aoe was much higher (or didn’t have one) which meant elementalists casting meteor shower could absolutely destroy a group of players in the area of effect and melee based players couldn’t get close enough to damage them before being bombarded. Five-man limit on aoe meant no longer could few eles hold a choke against a blob and therefore meant the other classes besides the casters became viable in WvW.
Also the aoe limit serves to improve server side calculations/load which = better performance for the players.

It also adds RNG to PvP. Will my AE hit the guy at 10% or the hunters pet? Furthermore you should be able to hold chokes vs bigger numbers. To what degree is debatable, but lesser numbers should be able to hold chokes vs greater numbers. Right now it’s to hard to do that. Greater numbers that stack with stability up aren’t getting stopped at a choke.

Ok there are zergs that are not mindless but the game isn’t very smart about how certain things do or do not scale in mass combat.

Conditions
Viel
AE
Wells
Plague
AI (any pet or minion)

Some classes just are not designed for 50 v 50 combat. Others have insane defense that can do well (warrior, guardian).

You can easily get that when a ranger is actually quite good in small roam and is the pits in zerg.

Everything with more than 40 players on a side is boring and laggy as hell.

Map cap to 50 please. This way we can have much better fights.

hellsmachine.4085:

Fun! This is Guild WARS right? A small group fight is not a war, its a fight.

Big fights are fights, too.

PPT is the war, and it’s boring as hell.

Ozoug.4158:

It also adds RNG to PvP. Will my AE hit the guy at 10% or the hunters pet? Furthermore you should be able to hold chokes vs bigger numbers. To what degree is debatable, but lesser numbers should be able to hold chokes vs greater numbers. Right now it’s to hard to do that. Greater numbers that stack with stability up aren’t getting stopped at a choke.

I don’t think many players realize the implication of lifting the aoe cap will do to WvW overall. Its not like the first couple of months of the game where players were clueless, unorganized mess. We have dedicated, coordinated guilds & zergs running around and you guys want to arm them with no aoe cap? Fights will be shorter and decided by who has the greater number of casters. And good luck ramming those keeps when all it takes it few eles + AC to obliterate your forces.
I agree its hard to hold a choke against greater numbers currently but its still possible with organized guild/groups. There are countless vids on youtube showcasing this.

@OP
Thankfully you have 4 choices, so do not worry.
Choice #1: Stick to PvE
Choice #2: Play s/t PvP
Choice #3: Transfer to a different server
Choice #4: Quit the game

Either way, don’t say Anet didnt give you plenty of options to get out of a slump.

I don’t have a problem with the aoe limit. What I don’t care for is that some classes have way more access to stability then others making them the primary classes in zerg vs zerg. Then there is the terrible designed downed state. Where if you go up against a larger force pretty much no matter what you lose cause they just have half a dozen people power rez anybody you down and spike.

While I’m not new to the game having played well over a year, I’ve played very little WvW up until the last month, I like to roam solo or in a group of 2-4 others and at other times run the zergs that might be attacking, the thing I’ve noticed about running in a zerg is that the success, fun, and longevity of the zerg totally depends on the commander. A good commander who is well seasoned and has a plan or can change tactics on the fly (basically think on his/her feet) makes a zerg much more enjoyable, but a bad commander…well it doesn’t take long following one to make you want to go back to solo roaming.

Its very fun if you have an aim so what may look like a random group of ppl running in often is a group of ppl on ts working as a team a very well organized team. Often you have ele for early cc and water fields you have hammer class for burst and stuns you have thf mez and eng for gankers and you have ranger for a mix well realty all the class can fill most rolls its more off how you build and what wepon you use. The point is if you see a 20+ group running in a small ball they are more then like working as a team they are not zerging one bit.

If you have no guild and just run with some one that has a tag with out any real communication your playing wvw wrong painfully wrong. Most of the time these players are spamming 1 for loot only and they are taking up spaces that could be better used. Its best to have a community ts or vent etc.. to let these ppl have a reason beyond loot to play.