Guild Wars 2

still nothing done about massive aoe spam from eles/necros/rangers/engis etc. on walls making it impossible to defend with sieg….

anet, you gonna do something about it or not? please tell me how we suppose to defend this? how are we suppose to kill this catas? any sieg i would build would either get destroyed by massive aoe or won’t reach the target unless you abuse hacks…

what is point of defensive sieg? why is this issue ignored for so long? if zerging is promoted as only viable defensive tactics why do we have any sieg but rams ?

See how the wall juts out further at the top of the stairs?

Deli.1302:

See how the wall juts out further at the top of the stairs?

i tried that spot too… still gets hit by eles/necros just didn’t get to capture it on screenshot

even stairs get hit actually

Get off the wall and come open field fight

So you take away the ability for the attacking side to aoe the wall which of course provides a massive advantage to the defending side as they can sit on the wall doing lots of aoe damage as well as all the damage from ac’s, ballista’s etc. Then people come here complaining about how impossible it is for the attacking side. If any player should be able to aoe a wall it should be a ranger considering they carry a long bow.

ouch, no supply in keep and WP almost done.

Working as intended.

phantomlord.3417:

Get off the wall and come open field fight

For real. Drop the idea that you need to AoE from the safety of a tower and get out and push.

I just find the whole concept of being able to place catas just infront of walls are idiotic, there should be a range limit how close you can place catas.

And I do really loath golems, they are to powerful and now when GW2 is 1.5 years old players have a lot of golds to spend which render golems cheap.
Golem rushes destroy WvW for me as a defender no matter how much sieges are in place, 6-7 golems melts thrue doors within seconds and while you as a defender can’t even man the sieges at the walls due to the massive AOE on them so you fall back but by then I’ts to late.
Yes you can scouts out and al that yadda yadda yadda thats besides the point, golems are to OP and ruins WvW and should get rid off.

It’s a fundamental problem that goes hand in hand with favouring zergs, offensive WvW abilities and obstructed line of sight for defenders. Could Anet WvW devs introduce counters & tweaks? Yes. DO they want to change it? Maybe

PS: Counters IMO
1. Tower & Keep upgrade called “Moat”, which prevents siege being built directly in front of walls & cripples attackers standing still for longer than 2 seconds.
2. WvW ability line “Tower defender”, which grants you e.g. protection, stability, +300 range (as LoS can hardly be fixed) when fighting from contested tower walls. (Would need an internal cooldown though)
3. Traps called “Moat trap” that will make it impossible to build a siege on that spot for 15 min. (Can be upgraded with Sapper Mastery which enhances Trap use; new traps could also include an alarm trap, which will trigger when more than 10 people pass it within a time window of 10 sec; that would slow down zergs a lot if they want to move relatively unnoticed)

phantomlord.3417:

Get off the wall and come open field fight

This. ^^
We only want you to come out and play.

hihey.1075:

Working as intended.

Indeed. Sadly the intent is somewhat questionable.

xev.9476:

phantomlord.3417:

Get off the wall and come open field fight

For real. Drop the idea that you need to AoE from the safety of a tower and get out and push.

yeah sure lets push out with the 10 people vs that awesome 50 man zerg

Out of all the real issues in the game… Things like this is what is complained about lol

phantomlord.3417:

Get off the wall and come open field fight

brb grabbing 20 man pugs to face map zerg, mkay

so ya hours of work on upgrades, sieging up, karma and gold…all gone within 30 sec due to entire map zerg + max amount of superior rams on door…

can’t even defend with sieg because everything is getting destroyed by eles/rangers/necros

wvw = bring map zerg or don’t even bother

Cynz.9437:

brb grabbing 20 man pugs to face map zerg, mkay

Are you saying its better to defend a tower in a 20 minute battle where you kill no attackers, they run around bringing down all your siege while swearing, half of defenders die due to wall AoE and when the door is open everyone else jump out – compared to jumping out, dying in a glorious and intense battle then retaking the keep 10 minutes later?

phantomlord.3417:

Get off the wall and come open field fight

did you see the outmanned buff?

A fully upgraded tower should not fall in less than a minute to a zerg. Sure it should fall fast, but with the mass heals and damage a zerg brings, it already makes it extremely difficult to defend against WITH siege.

When you are downed in seconds while on an arrow cart that is as far back from the outer wall edge as possible, the idea of defense becomes moot.

I agree that zergs are favored and approved of in WvW, but when the mentality exists of “Bring Zerg or GTFO”, then I feel the strong stay strong and the weak just keep losing. Because of that, we have servers who are perma-Outmanned and servers with 5 hour queues.

Dawdler.8521:

Cynz.9437:

brb grabbing 20 man pugs to face map zerg, mkay

Are you saying its better to defend a tower in a 20 minute battle where you kill no attackers, they run around bringing down all your siege while swearing, half of defenders die due to wall AoE and when the door is open everyone else jump out – compared to jumping out, dying in a glorious and intense battle then retaking the keep 10 minutes later?

Its his decision how to die,but you my friend sound like someone greedy that knowing that his zerg will cover him wants to provoke the enemy so he can get the bags and the free kills for the title.
You may wanna try to defend for a change,upgrade towers and escort yaks.
See how much more effort and cost that is compared to loging in and pop into wvw asking were the karma train is.
After a while you will also start thinking that the blob outside the gate isnt worthy to get your badge of honor and your bag.

Keeps, towers and AoE have all been horribly designed and implemented. Best just to accept that, realize there is no reward for defense anyways, so just join your own karma train and everyone can run around in glorious circles, no need to even leave the map or fight each other.

Keeps, towers and AoE have all been horribly designed.

Only in this topsy-turvy world is a ‘defensive’ structure more beneficial to the attacker than the defender.

The single biggest problem with this game is that there are some situations you just can’t win, and many people who are trying to get that changed in the name of “fairness” or “balancing”.

It sucks to lose objectives to a zerg, especially when you just have that helpless/outnumbered feeling…..But if you are trying to build siege after they are on inner with catas then you are going to struggle 9/10 times. Also there is 20-ish dots and two commanders I think in that keep, surely you could facetank some catas?

Like I said “been there done that” sucks to lose something like that, but even when I have seen it, usually the issue was: we were not prepared (existing defensive siege), and/or we did not organize a real push to wipe the siege.

Forget the aoe on the walls, what’s the kitten point of having sharks in Bay if we can’t create a Sharknado with them ? Rain of Sharks, kittenes !

The thing is, you AOE from a wall to hit 5 attackers in a blob of 20 (game mechanic) yet 20 of them can hit you & melt you in an instant.
Defender on the wall are at a distinct disadvantage when they should have the advantage. This is the heart of the problem.

Strangely Anet has decided to change history. Usually the people inside a fortification had the advantage over the attackers. Anets version of siege warfare gives the attackers the advantage.

Strange

xev.9476:

phantomlord.3417:

Get off the wall and come open field fight

For real. Drop the idea that you need to AoE from the safety of a tower and get out and push.

Lol they against SBI, good luck pushing into 70 with an outmanned buff.

Now i know why hackers feel Justified

Why discipline them for their violations when violation like this including many other are permitted and supported?

Quite Hypocritical, wouldn’t you say?

“Whatever you condemn, you have done yourself”

It does seem entirely counter-intuitive to have siege be so vulnerable on walls. In fact walls themselves are more dangerous to defenders than attackers.

I don’t believe this was ever intended to be this way. It’s just a side-effect of how AoE targeting works.

Currently, unless you know exact spots, Siege on walls just gets destroyed instantly by AoE. Placing them behind walls really limits their firing range.

But this is just another thing on a long list of stuff that needs to be addressed at some point.

I agree it’s problematic on walls, and I’m probably a prime example as to why. Most of my kills comes from players grouping up on walls. Seriously, your better off just waiting behind the gate and sucker punching us when we come through.

If barrage and quickness are popped, if the player gets hit, they usually take 7-8 hits fairly quick which is enough to down most people unless they escape. Combine that with rapid fire if they are standing in such a way they can be shot at, it’s GG.

I’ve personally given up standing on walls unless i’ve got a death wish; it’s just easier to wait inside and pepper them if they make it in.

They have what looks to be AC cover fire on your wall, unless it’s a ranger.

If it’s AC cover fire, they got the jump on you for not being ready, bad luck.

johnnymiller.5968:

So you take away the ability for the attacking side to aoe the wall which of course provides a massive advantage to the defending side as they can sit on the wall doing lots of aoe damage as well as all the damage from ac’s, ballista’s etc. Then people come here complaining about how impossible it is for the attacking side. If any player should be able to aoe a wall it should be a ranger considering they carry a long bow.

Ranger bows are one of the worst weapons on walls (as attacker or defender). Axe usually works better than bow.

Wanderer.3248:

johnnymiller.5968:

So you take away the ability for the attacking side to aoe the wall which of course provides a massive advantage to the defending side as they can sit on the wall doing lots of aoe damage as well as all the damage from ac’s, ballista’s etc. Then people come here complaining about how impossible it is for the attacking side. If any player should be able to aoe a wall it should be a ranger considering they carry a long bow.

Ranger bows are one of the worst weapons on walls (as attacker or defender). Axe usually works better than bow.

before making false accusation, take another good look and show me where do you see rangers arrows?

Hint’- warriors arrows aoe’s are Red including Elelmentalist Meteor Shower plus Fire Grab

selan.8354:

xev.9476:

phantomlord.3417:

Get off the wall and come open field fight

For real. Drop the idea that you need to AoE from the safety of a tower and get out and push.

yeah sure lets push out with the 10 people vs that awesome 50 man zerg

Lets be frank here. 50 men should always win against 10. No amount of force multipliers will change that fact. A 10 man garrison can hold out longer by destroying rams in front of gates, forcing the 50 men to play more tactically…

But at the end of the day, the bigger group wins in WvW.

dragontamer.5492:

selan.8354:

xev.9476:

phantomlord.3417:

Get off the wall and come open field fight

For real. Drop the idea that you need to AoE from the safety of a tower and get out and push.

yeah sure lets push out with the 10 people vs that awesome 50 man zerg

Lets be frank here. 50 men should always win against 10. No amount of force multipliers will change that fact. A 10 man garrison can hold out longer by destroying rams in front of gates, forcing the 50 men to play more tactically…

But at the end of the day, the bigger group wins in WvW.

The trick is for the ten to hold out long enough for the reinforcements to arrive.

the problem here is you don’t hold veloka or ogrewatch. once those are gone, the keep is very vulnerable. under your control you could easily take out their siege from there.

also they are in a vulnerable spot. 2 mesmers and a few friends could wipe 10-15 of them off the cliff easily with a couple null fields and pulls/fears/etc.

Solstice.1097:

the problem here is you don’t hold veloka or ogrewatch. once those are gone, the keep is very vulnerable. under your control you could easily take out their siege from there.

also they are in a vulnerable spot. 2 mesmers and a few friends could wipe 10-15 of them off the cliff easily with a couple null fields and pulls/fears/etc.

The real problem is that they’re out-resourced. If the enemy can take OW and Veloka, treb down Overlook’s south wall from SMC or the hill between Overlook and Anz, wipe all the siege on the inner wall, then put catas on the east inner then they were going to lose Overlook anyway. They could have trebbed from OW hill or even Veloka and you wouldn’t have been able to stop them. That’s a lot of time to do all that. If you didn’t or couldn’t counter by getting reinforcements, then you should lose the keep.

If you want a game where 20 can defend against 80 then no keep/tower would ever be taken.

Swamurabi.7890:

Solstice.1097:

the problem here is you don’t hold veloka or ogrewatch. once those are gone, the keep is very vulnerable. under your control you could easily take out their siege from there.

also they are in a vulnerable spot. 2 mesmers and a few friends could wipe 10-15 of them off the cliff easily with a couple null fields and pulls/fears/etc.

The real problem is that they’re out-resourced. If the enemy can take OW and Veloka, treb down Overlook’s south wall from SMC or the hill between Overlook and Anz, wipe all the siege on the inner wall, then put catas on the east inner then they were going to lose Overlook anyway. They could have trebbed from OW hill or even Veloka and you wouldn’t have been able to stop them. That’s a lot of time to do all that. If you didn’t or couldn’t counter by getting reinforcements, then you should lose the keep.

If you want a game where 20 can defend against 80 then no keep/tower would ever be taken.

still, they are cata’ing from that little ledge. I would have a blast with some null fields and pulls/fears. If you’re outnumbered, you only have to stall them long enough for the other server to pull them off you.

There are places that siege can go in most keeps/towers that allow for decent coverage and avoid incoming player fire.

A real issue is the inability to attack most players on the ground while standing behind a walls lip. One would think the high ground would be at an advantage but the only way to tag anything below is to risk an almost certain pull. Oddly Veteran Scouts do not suffer this limitation.

another effective tactic is have 5 or so people with supply stack right by the wall that’s going down.

everyone else get up on the wall off to the side and mesmer drop exit portal. as soon as wall goes down the 5 people with supply pop stability and repair it up behind the initial force that pushes in. the group on the wall jumps onto the catas and destroys them and mesmer lays entrance portal to get back up.

the group that got in is hopefully wipe-able and the catas are gone.

in most cases a lot of them will actually be stuck INSIDE the wall. as long as they are still in combat they cannot waypoint unless they die to AoEs. this isn’t exactly the intention of the trick to exploit this issue but let’s call it a ‘bonus’

it probably won’t save your keep, just make it more of a pain in the kitten for the enemy, help your morale a bit, etc.

Just saying “stand somewhere and attack” is never going to be intended to replace strategy.

Solstice.1097:

the problem here is you don’t hold veloka or ogrewatch. once those are gone, the keep is very vulnerable. under your control you could easily take out their siege from there.

also they are in a vulnerable spot. 2 mesmers and a few friends could wipe 10-15 of them off the cliff easily with a couple null fields and pulls/fears/etc.

all our towers were t3, fully upgraded and sieged up, we lost all of them within 5 min or so to map zerg simply because few of us couldn’t even use most sieg we had due to massive aoe on walls; the only thing we could use is like cata inside yard but that’s it

as far as zerg should always win vs 10, here the thing: how much and recourses did that map zerg commit? 5 min

how much time and recourses did ppl commit to upgrade all towers and keep to t3 and sieg it up? hours

i understand you should have chance to take over even sieged up keeps but you should also put some effort in it like build catas, ACs or treb even… something also needs to be done about 20+ omega rushes and pile of superior rams melting reinforced gates within seconds

Aside from AOEing the walls; to me as defending both keeps and towers its quiet annoying how you can’t put supply into a gate without getting AOE’d to death. It is quiet annoying to die because aoe’s go threw the gates; it makes repairing the gate to hold off a zerg until reinforcements come. Countless times zerg’s take keeps over that have 1.4k supply or even more near max just because its death to try to repair a gate.

I am not saying that 10 people should be able to hold off a 30 man zerg but there is a point where it becomes quiet impractical to hold anything just due to the sheer aoe death that comes from being within “safe” area. As for the aoeing on walls, there are spots along the walls in some towers where the walls go vertically up in order to give the appearance of defend able spots but the aoe rings completely ignore them. To me it would make more sense to make it so that those spots were safety spots from aoe’s. I am not saying every wall spot should have them but there are some towers that there are no safe spots no the walls and players are resorting to trying to throw from down below to get it as far back as possible to the point where the arrow cart looks like it is either in the wall or in mid air.

A balance has to be found no doubt but being able to aoe the entire wall certainly is on one end of the spectrum of favoring the attackers and on the other end is not being able to hit them at all. Somewhere in the middle where certain classes only could hit them. The idea of a ranger being able to only hit them as an interesting one since they were touted as a aoe and range class. Clearly just one class wouldn’t be fair so maybe just rangers and ele’s for example could have moves that could clear siege.

The idea of taking a tower isn’t for zergs to come rushing threw it like it was open all along, it should be a pain to take that way it stops the non stop ktraining. If ktraining was extremely hard to pull off the roamers would probably get more people to play with, gvgers would probably get more guilds to fight and you would see less blobs cause they weren’t taking a map over in 30 minutes sometimes even less when they pull 4 superior rams and 3-4 omegas per gate. (Yes I have been on the receiving end and the giving end of those zergs)

defensieve sieges are too powerful. 5 men can hold back a whole server. if u dont know how to place sieges pls learn to play. i think sieges need a very small number limit while defending. i dont want to pvd the whole night. i want to fight against other players, not arrow carts.

McWolfy.5924:

defensieve sieges are too powerful. 5 men can hold back a whole server. if u dont know how to place sieges pls learn to play. i think sieges need a very small number limit while defending. i dont want to pvd the whole night. i want to fight against other players, not arrow carts.

The counter-argument being stop rolling in zergs then. ACs aren’t effective against solos or small roaming groups obviously that’s different for massive siege battles. But I have played WvW since launch and I can count on barely 2 hands how many times the “OP” defensive siege has wiped out a true attacking zerg. It depends on the quality of the attackers. Dont spam rams and complain when they go down and you have o PVD. Build catas, trebs, and rams. the triple combo trumps anything when paired with the zerg. But 99% of zergs are too lazy to do that.

Counter Zergs with Zergs or ACs. Don’t whine about bombing the parapets, that’s good tactics. Counter it with ballistas and ACs if you are having such a hard time. You can build ACs behind the wall and still hit people, and build ballistas further up away from the wall.

Cynz.9437:

still nothing done about massive aoe spam from eles/necros/rangers/engis etc. on walls making it impossible to defend with sieg….

anet, you gonna do something about it or not? please tell me how we suppose to defend this? how are we suppose to kill this catas? any sieg i would build would either get destroyed by massive aoe or won’t reach the target unless you abuse hacks…

what is point of defensive sieg? why is this issue ignored for so long? if zerging is promoted as only viable defensive tactics why do we have any sieg but rams ?

In this scenario the best defense would have been for the commander in the picture to turn to you and yell " Get to the Choppa"

selan.8354:

xev.9476:

phantomlord.3417:

Get off the wall and come open field fight

For real. Drop the idea that you need to AoE from the safety of a tower and get out and push.

yeah sure lets push out with the 10 people vs that awesome 50 man zerg

no offence but when your 10 vs 50 your supposed to lose ;p if your own zerg wasnt doing the same at their towers/keeps than you might be able to defend it.

WvW mechanics favors offence more than defence. Nothing strange here.

I think everyone is missing the true scandal here. A keep in the possession of Yak’s Bend was not sieged up to the max.

I’m sure this will come up in server-wide meetings where there will be acrimony and accusations about why there were not at least 5 arrow carts already in place on that wall.

Chris.3290:

I think everyone is missing the true scandal here. A keep in the possession of Yak’s Bend was not sieged up to the max.

I’m sure this will come up in server-wide meetings where there will be acrimony and accusations about why there were not at least 5 arrow carts already in place on that wall.

actually it was sieged up…i took screenshot when 90% of it was already destroyed by eles