Guild Wars 2

Conditions need adressing, too easily reapplied after cleanses, maybe have certain cleanses have a condition immunity after they have been used, something short. Just a thought but it is really depressing after cleansing 8-10 conditions to have them instantly reapplied, and encourages skill-less spamming of abilities.

Our raids are typically 25-30 and conditions are a massive problem with larger numbers, this is not a 1v1 issue only.

War Dad TUP

I usually remove conditions and use heals.

Junkpile.7439:

I usually remove conditions and use heals.

First of all im more used to low tiers WvW, and even there is almost impossible to maintain few conditions on a fight~, and believe me with we do alot of combos deppending the situation we are facing

here is why:

I also remove 3 condis per shout, plus more 2 in 10 seconds, but the problems is the number of hostiles playing conditions bunker builds, for each 3 conditions removed i gain several stacks sometimes 25 of the conditions removed, i also have like 25khp.

With my lowbies facing lvl 80 guardians, wich are always my main target on wvw, i can easilly face roll them, even if they are classes i dont know how to play couse condition do all the work for me, on mesmer and necro no matter how many condition they can remove i can easly get +12 stacks of conditions on them doing like 1.9-2.5k damage per tick, while mantaining distance sometimes they dont even touch me (wich is rare but happens).

I tend to pick classes like guardians becouse i know how weak they are w/o boons and atm this game rewards more condition gameplay, i dont know if u notice but poison reduces healing by 33% if recall righ, in some classes i can maintain poison almost 100% of the time w/o problem and ho matter how much u remove its will be always aplayed over agin.

This is why most players and the reason to this thread i believe are complaining, cause most players are adapting to a better reward and “unbalanced” build gamepaly (myself included making bunker\conditions classes ), where they can nuliify any guardian (ditto Boon users).

If it is a l2p issue i dont know each one to is own experience as a player that spends all gameplay time in WvW this is the image i have about it,

People run Bunker Condition Builds because classes like the Thief/Mesmer/Warrior Exist who can instant kill you if you run anything else.

Xsorus.2507:

People run Bunker Condition Builds because classes like the Thief/Mesmer/Warrior Exist who can instant kill you if you run anything else.

Exactly correct. One is a symptom of the other. It’s another example of how poorly Anet has handled min-maxing and risk versus reward.

There is no condi meta – meta implies that everyone runs nothing but condition builds because it is the best it provides the path of least resistance. That isn’t true most people you see are running good ol direct damage FTW.

Everyone knows direct damage > condition damage. Condi damage like power can be supplemental damage or it can be your main form of damage. Power has the advantage because you can run around with 40k hp and there is no cap on how much dps you can recieve from different forms of direct damage but there is for condi damage. That’s not saying condi damage isn’t good it’s just different than direct damage.

I see more people running condition removel than condition builds tbh which is why I stopped running conditions myself. Much prefer a tanky dps/brawler style of play (solo top ftw).

Yes i see necros and a few of the perplexity warriors. But in 1v1 situation they are trash.

Cond rangers…still just a ranger. (I don’t rate rangers at all) With mesmer feedback and reflection traits they really are not a problem.

Condition engineer….Seems to be a very rare fight for me.

Saw a longbow condition warrior before. Was lol

I play mesmer so either the cond removal mantra or the boon steal /cond removal (forget the name for this). I switch this utility slot a lot on inc, depending on the fight and what they appear to be running.

This is all from the perspective of a roamer. But surely a zerg can spam condition removal as much if not more than a solo roamer or small group. Granted, this would require moderate to high co-ordination.

sinject.4607:

This isn’t a matter of “l2p” (the classic sign of someone defending something that’s broken and they play it) because there’s nothing that counters this at all. Lemongrass? Expensive and countered by Pizza. Lyssa/Melandru Runes? Pigeonhole you into being too specifically anti-condition while not being powerful enough to be worth it. Cleansing? Hardly anything can cleanse as fast as the conditions are re-inflicted.

Actually, Lemongrass counters conditions extremely well, even against Pizza buffs. Conditions are calculated for all additional duration, then diminished condition duration. Hence:
100% + pizza (40%) = 140% duration
140% + lemongrass (-40%) = .6 × 140% = 84% duration.

I think the meta conditions are good, people are just not used to it yet. People used to say “Go power, coz conditions are useless in a zerg, theres condition cleansing everywhere”. Bringing the conditions up provides a nice balance.

@Bacon Please: I don’t think poison affects regeneration, it only affects rejuvenation and heals.

Edit: Also, d/p and s/d thieves are overpowered.

Jski.6180:

Sigil of Gengerosity is a very strong counter to condition dmg for most crit builds. One crit may give a full stack of bleed fire confusion etc..

Hello, kind sir. I know this is off topic. Do you know if the Superior shares the same cooldown as the Major? Anyone else can answer this too if they knows it.

Power necro give much more loot than con dmg necro.

There’s videos of level 12 necros eating level 80’s alive by spamming conditions. Obviously something is wrong. Anyone who thinks conditions aren’t overpowered now probably runs one of the easy mode condition spammer builds. I run a condition spec on my warrior. And fun as it is watching people bleed and burn to death unable to cure the conditions I stick on them because I can put them back on as soon as they cure them, I’ll admit it’s overpowered as hell and in need of a serious nerf.

oZii.2864:

There is no condi meta – meta implies that everyone runs nothing but condition builds because it is the best it provides the path of least resistance. That isn’t true most people you see are running good ol direct damage FTW.

That’s because not all classes can spam condition AoE, but, just for an example, right now all the necros use a condition spam build.

On the other hand, you have to consider that WvWvW is not PvP (the condi meta in pvp is really a plague), and you can’t change your equip in 2 seconds with no expense.

Xsorus.2507:

People run Bunker Condition Builds because classes like the Thief/Mesmer/Warrior Exist who can instant kill you if you run anything else.

this.

also heavy on defense works best with condition damage since power damage requires power, precision and crit damage when condition damage only requires condition damage and maybe precision, so thats 1-2 open stats for stacking defense where on power damage its 0-1.

Requiem.8769:

Actually, Lemongrass counters conditions extremely well, even against Pizza buffs. Conditions are calculated for all additional duration, then diminished condition duration. Hence:
100% + pizza (40%) = 140% duration
140% + lemongrass (-40%) = .6 × 140% = 84% duration.

Wrong, there was another threat, where some1 made experiments on those condition duration thingies and showed that inna video. And it turned out that it’s simply: 100%+40%-40%=100%

TyPin.9860:

Requiem.8769:

Actually, Lemongrass counters conditions extremely well, even against Pizza buffs. Conditions are calculated for all additional duration, then diminished condition duration. Hence:
100% + pizza (40%) = 140% duration
140% + lemongrass (-40%) = .6 × 140% = 84% duration.

Wrong, there was another threat, where some1 made experiments on those condition duration thingies and showed that inna video. And it turned out that it’s simply: 100%+40%-40%=100%

My testing has shown otherwise.

I think I have to go test that myself then.

High damage while being greatly spec’ed into surviving (condi builds) is pretty much the gw2 definition of overpowered. With recent nerfs to a lot of the classes in the game in regards to condition removal, condis have been allowed to take over and assume that overpowered state its in. Give classes more options to condition removal without greatly sacrificing their build, let toughness affect condition damage, let invulnerable skills affect condition damage, introduce a new boon along the lines of “Resilience” that reduces cond duration or cond dmg on you by 50% (or x % , with atleast decent access to on a lot of classes if not all), or you could tune down condition damage in general. There. I’m not even a dev, and theres like, 5 solutions to one problem that i just thought of from the top of my head. It can’t really be that hard to SEE that conditions are a problem right now, and to actually do something about it as well.

P.S, nerf the ridiculous runes of perplexity. kittening make the game work, i paid $60.00 for a game that doesn’t work half the time? Seriously? You’re going to introduce a set of runes without even thoroughly testing them to see that maybe something in the coding possibly might not work? If you didnt know by now, let me tell you. The ICD on runes of perplexity doesnt work. you can rupt all day and get ridiculous amounts of confusion.

Groups running Torment + Perpelx runes and the focus on condition specs and stuns have made the flavor of the month annoying in WvW. Then a necro pops Epidemic and Conid Boms everyone and switches to plague form to mop up. This needs some serious balancing.

Steelo.4597:

Xsorus.2507:

People run Bunker Condition Builds because classes like the Thief/Mesmer/Warrior Exist who can instant kill you if you run anything else.

this.

also heavy on defense works best with condition damage since power damage requires power, precision and crit damage when condition damage only requires condition damage and maybe precision, so thats 1-2 open stats for stacking defense where on power damage its 0-1.

You can do hybrid builds, I made one for Ranger…

But anyway, what I stated is pretty much 100% true.

Why did i create the BM Bunker Build all those month’s ago?

Because Anet came by and gutted my Power Glass Cannon Build with Shortbow, thus leaving me with kitten for DPS when it came to Power builds.

So I had one option, Create something tanky as hell to hopefully survive the stupid amount of thieves that existed back then (and still do). I created the build around 1 ability, Pain Inverter…. Because I could use PI to kill all the awful thieves back then who could instantly kill me by spamming the number 2 key.

If you don’t want Heavy Condition Bunkers to exist, Don’t overload the game with classes that can explode other classes in seconds.

I have yet to see mention of a condition mesmer. I know that build exists (using the perplexity runes) because I encountered one recently. He put more conds on me than I could take off (over time) and was very tanky. I main eng and so was using 409 and Elixir C but that wasn’t enough. I’ve found I have less trouble/last longer vs thieves/non cond warrior/mesmer than most of the current WvW cond builds.
However, as a nod to OP, I will note that a cond necro in my guild has a very high cond damage/duration. In a friendly duel (not using 409), he literally dropped me with conds (higher dmg per tick and longer ticks) in seconds.

running cond dmg requires no sacrifices, you can still easily stack toughness heal power whatever. going high burst in power requires sacrifices in defense, vit, something.

the fact that cond dmg got buffed with even more conditions and ways to stack on all calsses = the stupid meta we are in right now.

glass cannons would at least melt, but do crazy damage…. cond dmg can now burst ridiculously, and have a ton of survivability. ive been taking a decent break from WvW until they balance some crap out.

CrassBippy.4619:

going high burst in power requires sacrifices in defense, vit, something.

Soldier’s: Power / Toughness / Vitality

Now you too can be OP.

Halo.8976:

CrassBippy.4619:

going high burst in power requires sacrifices in defense, vit, something.

Soldier’s: Power / Toughness / Vitality

Now you too can be OP.

I use that on my guardian as i stated up on the thread with traited shouts i can remove 2+1(transformed to boon) per shout, problem here is lasts combat +1 or 2 seconds, the reward of playing Bunker condi stats is more than you think.

No matter how conditions you remove the number of conditions and damage you take is always far superior to the conditions you can remove or heal.

note: i remove about 5 to 16 stacks of each conditon after use one or 2 shouts i still have the same amount of conditions due the number of conditions aplyers i am fighthing.

“my 2 quaggans”

Aeolus.3615:

I use that on my guardian as i stated up on the thread with traited shouts i can remove 2+1(transformed to boon) per shout, problem here is lasts combat +1 or 2 seconds, the reward of playing Bunker condi stats is more than you think.

No matter how conditions you remove the number of conditions and damage you take is always far superior to the conditions you can remove or heal.

note: i remove about 5 to 16 stacks of each conditon after use one or 2 shouts i still have the same amount of conditions due the number of conditions aplyers i am fighthing.

“my 2 quaggans”

and what exactly is the problem there? you shouldn’t be immune to all conditions all the time.
thats like crying you just got hit by a warrior, healed up and then you got hit again and wtf no heal, nerf direct damage users.

every single class has condition cleanses available. Learning to prioritize what condies need cleansing and when, to time your condition removal, to take a breather when your cleanses are on CD, dodging the obvious condition overload skills, etc, thats what everyone means by l2p.

bunker condition specs won’t kill anyone competent either. you simply don’t have enough damage to kill good players who know what they do.

kiwituatara.6053:

I don’t think poison affects regeneration, it only affects rejuvenation and heals.

Poison reduces the healing power attribute by 33%, which means that one’s regeneration boon does not tick for 130 + (1/8 * Healing Power) but for 130 + (1/12 * Healing Power), thus if you would run 800 healing power your regeneration boon would go from 230 down to 196 (-34 HP per second). It also does not fully effect the healing spells but just the coefficient for the healing power (which makes the warrior regeneration signet extremely strong against poison, because your base HP refill is at 392 HP per second).

There is no pure condition meta (as in “everybody runs it because it is OP on its own). Many organized WvW groups are assembled of a melee train of shout guardians with either crit-AH-builds or regeneration/block-builds, as well as CC/shout heal warriors and sometimes some plague necs (which most of the time run pretty glassy well builds, which are thrown into the enemy just before switching to either death shroud or plague form). Well, this was the old guild group meta, to be precise, and we called it the CC-meta.
During the last weeks and months there was an uprise of condimancers in such guild trains. Conditions (damaging conditions as well as CC conditions) are pretty nasty things right now, because they are easy to apply, easily reapplied, hit really hard (especially the classes which have to spec in vitality thus reducing the number of alternative viable builds) and are hard to counter the smaller your own group gets (less condition removal). A condimancer has around 1,800 base condition damage – add some might stacks and we are at ~2,675 condition damage. Now let’s take just burning and some bleed stacks, which are easily achievable on single targets in group fights of 15vs15 and above: Burning ticks for 428 + 1/4 * cond-dmg, that is 778 HPps at 1,800 and 996 HPps at 2,675. Now add some bleed stacks, each ticking for 42 + 1/20 * cond-dmg, equals 132 HPps or 176 HPps… per stack. Let’s assume 20 stacks, which are very plausibly values with some bleed stacking and some more epidemics – 3,525 HPps plus the burning, plus some poison, etc. Up to 4,500 HPps (and some more if you also use poison, confusion, torment and retaliation), unaffected by armor, regeneration (which with 1,500 healing power would regenerate 380 HPps… Who the kitten runs 1,500 healing power in WvW?) and what not.
All this can be applied from far away and mostly instant (”Kiting me? Idc, I’m a necro!“), cannot be countered by blocks (”unblockable" my kitten, is hard to dodge (most condition necros are in the back line and please don’t tell me you can see everything in a clash of 15vs15, also staff marks, boon corruption, signet of malice and epidemic are instant and AoE). At least, most heavy direct damage requires something like melee range (130 units) – condition specced necros are well behind their melees at 600 to 1,200 units – kiting the melee train to get to the casters is – in the age of heavy CC- and condition-spam not always viable. If you run anything else then the CC-/condition-train, you are at a heavy disadvantage, regardless of how well you use your group’s synergies and the player’s abilities.

Also: We can reduce direct damage with weakness. Is there something against condition damage? shrug
(yeah, i know you can use blinds, but this is very unreliable against a stacked group)

maeggle.6021:

Also: We can reduce direct damage with weakness. Is there something against condition damage? shrug

cleanses and -durations food/gear aren’t enough? ^^

The amount of Necro’s in WvW right now is just plain silly… and it should tell you something in itself right there.

Agree with the conditions meta needed a look at. A very hard look at.

MAGpie.7962:

The amount of Necro’s in WvW right now is just plain silly… and it should tell you something in itself right there.

Agree with the conditions meta needed a look at. A very hard look at.

Ow for the love of…

“I saw a necro kill someone with conditions, fix conditions”“An upleveld necro just killed a lv80 with conditions”“There are necro’s everywhere! Fix conditions”

Really? REALLY?

One profession is out of control, so we should nerf ALL conditions across the board. That sounds great, lets apply the same logic to everything else. Hey, guess what, Backstab Thieves are out of control. Lets nerf all direct-damage for all professions.

Hmmz, am I really the only one who has condition removal equipped? I seriously don’t see all the fuzz about this condi meta: just counter it, and you should be allright!

The game has been out for 1 year now and people still say stuff like all these x classes have popped up. Like it people don’t have alts lol.

Was condi out of control with 100 nades? Where was the nerf threads then? All the FOtm that rolled engis where was the threads?

The fact that alot of people always associate condi with necro is funny because not all necros are condi focused.

MAGpie.7962:

The amount of Necro’s in WvW right now is just plain silly… and it should tell you something in itself right there.

Agree with the conditions meta needed a look at. A very hard look at.

And if we all start making threads tomorrow like “Warrior shield has to be fixed”, you’ll see lots of warriors running around with shields.. When someone claims something to be OP, you can be sure it attracts people who start building like that..

Terrahero.9358:

MAGpie.7962:

The amount of Necro’s in WvW right now is just plain silly… and it should tell you something in itself right there.

Agree with the conditions meta needed a look at. A very hard look at.

Ow for the love of…

“I saw a necro kill someone with conditions, fix conditions”“An upleveld necro just killed a lv80 with conditions”“There are necro’s everywhere! Fix conditions”

Really? REALLY?

One profession is out of control, so we should nerf ALL conditions across the board. That sounds great, lets apply the same logic to everything else. Hey, guess what, Backstab Thieves are out of control. Lets nerf all direct-damage for all professions.

It’s not just Necros…

Spirit Rangers are getting enormous amounts of QQ.
Warriors are getting enormous amounts of QQ.
Engineers are getting a ton of QQ.
Perplexity is getting a ton of QQ.

You could argue it’s more of a burn issue than conditions overall, sure. But it’s still related to burn and conditions in general.

This doesn’t mean the solution has to be ellaborate or anything…

You could cut their damage by a set percentage (30-50%) but then allow them to crit. This would then force conditions to work in the same way power builds work. They sacrifice raw damage for staying power. The argument against this is that condition classes need staying power for their conditions to work. This is true… but the classes that rely on conditions were given other mechanics to help with this. Deathshroud for example. If those mechanics aren’t up to the task, then buff those.

Alternatively, you can make removal of conditions easier. Give more condition removal abilities to classes. Allow them to remove more conditions at once. Now this would be overpowered in some sense because the ability to apply conditions may be given around freely, but the ability to stack them to a degree to actually be a threat is somewhat difficult and time consuming. So simply spreading around more cleanse without a draw back isn’t very fair. I suggest simply make cleanses remove boons in addition to conditions. This is a very scaled down version of how dispels worked in Shadowbane for example.

You could also examine the true problem conditions. The largest of which is burning. Scale burning damage back and turn it into a utility spell. For example, it would only do 2x or 3x bleed damage, but now would put revealed on any target also burning.

Lastly, they could just take the easy approach to conditions. Simply make toughness and protection work against them and call it a day. One could argue they already have a stat to combat conditions in vitality. If this really worked we would expect the high HP classes to do better against conditions than other classes (Warriors and Necros for example) but these classes don’t, not because of vitality anyway.

Requiem.8769:

TyPin.9860:

Requiem.8769:

Actually, Lemongrass counters conditions extremely well, even against Pizza buffs. Conditions are calculated for all additional duration, then diminished condition duration. Hence:
100% + pizza (40%) = 140% duration
140% + lemongrass (-40%) = .6 × 140% = 84% duration.

Wrong, there was another threat, where some1 made experiments on those condition duration thingies and showed that inna video. And it turned out that it’s simply: 100%+40%-40%=100%

My testing has shown otherwise.

Feel free to post a video to back up your evidence. Mine is a little out-dated, but there have been no changes to durations since I made the video. The plus and minus durations from Lemongrass and Pizza are additive

NOTE: Excluding fear and melandru runes, that was patched because the condition and stun reductions were both applying. This was 1-2 patches after the sigil of paralyzation change to no longer effect fear.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s not just Necros…

Spirit Rangers are getting enormous amounts of QQ.
Warriors are getting enormous amounts of QQ.
Engineers are getting a ton of QQ.
Perplexity is getting a ton of QQ.

You could argue it’s more of a burn issue than conditions overall, sure. But it’s still related to burn and conditions in general.

This doesn’t mean the solution has to be ellaborate or anything…

sPvP = Spirit Ranger QQ are people really complaining about spirit rangers in WvW? Someone show me a spirit ranger QQ thread that is not based around 1v1’s.

Warriors are getting QQ cause of Mace/Shield + GS not condi builds the QQ’d about in sPvP because of Mace/Shield and GS.

Engineers QQ in WvW is tied to Perplexity runes QQ so they are 1 in the same.

Maskaganda.2043:

cleanses and -durations food/gear aren’t enough? ^^

No, they obviously are not. If we have to use Runes of Melandru and Condition duration reduction food, this should tell one, there might be some serious balancing issue.

Condition removal usually are on high cool down and cleanses are on high cooldown and self-centered for the most part, wheras condition stacking is mostly AE, and further spreading is pretty easy and fast for some classes like engineers, necromancers and rangers (if they spec for it).

Oozo.7856:

Xsorus.2507:

People run Bunker Condition Builds because classes like the Thief/Mesmer/Warrior Exist who can instant kill you if you run anything else.

Exactly correct. One is a symptom of the other. It’s another example of how poorly Anet has handled min-maxing and risk versus reward.

I don’t think it is too poorly designed for pvp, for pve, it is terribad.

These builds are a response to over-powered builds as Oozo posted, but I would add the hammer guardian to the list as well. As an Engineer, we can’t go toe-to-toe with any of the above without running a condition build.

QQ all you want, but until everyone rolls an engineer as a core member of their wvw team, don’t point at conditions in general as being “broken.” Necros recently enjoyed a series of buffs that made them a very viable and a uniquely positioned profession in the meta. Pair that with the broken rune sets from the latest patch, and now all the OP professions and “key” builds don’t win all the time vs the “new meta.”

Welcome to the other side. L2P.

The ppl who defend this kitten are absolutely hilarious.

When I go in WvW with my condition Necromancer, I fight ppl,who die in seconds, I fight, who ppl are giving me a challange and I figth ppl, who clearly had the upper hand in the fight.

I see myself as a decent player. Not the very best, but defenetly not the very worst either and I have the least problems with condition builds. When I run my ranger, who has propably the worst condi remove of all the 4 professions I currently play, I have more problems fighting a bunker guardian, for neither my bleeds, nor my direct dmg is enough to seriously trouble him. Do I cry now about Guardian bunkers being OP?

From what I read here, it sounds like a condition build has everything. While I have a decent armor on my necro, a fully burst backstab thief, if I don’t play close attention, can burst me down still easily. Should I cry now about backstab thieves?

Once the new conditions have been tried out and has been coutnered properly, then you will see a new ballance establish itself. Most of the posts here give me but the feeling, that the poster themself doesn’t play a condy build and therefor assumes condi builds can do anything, while in fact, they are very limited in comparison to a direct dmg build (I say only gates and siege) and are far from overpowered. They are strong and require knowledge to counter, but they can be countered.

Also, the mentioning of more condies then cleanses is quite funny. If they would equal out, how would a condi build deal dmg then any more? You could then facetank a condy build. And that is, what ppl wanna do, but that ain’t the right way.

Condition damage is extremely strong. Watching my low health pool characters tick off well over 3k per second is incredible and this is damage coming from bunker-esk builds. Used to be a player had to glass for that kind of damage. By far the strongest builds I have seen in the game to date as they are both really tough and heavy on the damage.

I have not adjusted for this new style yet so hopefully it is manageable but given I run a healing/toughness build really surprised how quickly the condition stacking can kill. I have some serious build redesigns in my future.

TyPin.9860:

From what I read here, it sounds like a condition build has everything. While I have a decent armor on my necro, a fully burst backstab thief, if I don’t play close attention, can burst me down still easily. Should I cry now about backstab thieves?

Thief QQ is not allowed on this forum. You are only allowed to L2P.

Stunlock warrior says hi.

Time to learn a little game theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors#Rock-paper-scissors_in_video_games

Condition/tank feels OP because it counters your build. It is no more OP than “rock” is OP in rock, paper, scissors.

Right now, almost everyone is playing scissors, so people think rock is OP. Some people who did not jump on the scissors bandwagon are still running paper, and have nothing to fear from rock.

Condition tank has a hard counter: condition cleansing/self healing/sustain. If your build does not have these things, then it is vulnerable. But every build is vulnerable to something. A build is only OP if it is not vulnerable to ANYTHING. In rock, paper, scissors, only the Deathstar is OP.

titanlectro.5029:

Time to learn a little game theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors#Rock-paper-scissors_in_video_games

Condition/tank feels OP because it counters your build. It is no more OP than “rock” is OP in rock, paper, scissors.

Right now, almost everyone is playing scissors, so people think rock is OP. Some people who did not jump on the scissors bandwagon are still running paper, and have nothing to fear from rock.

Condition tank has a hard counter: condition cleansing/self healing/sustain. If your build does not have these things, then it is vulnerable. But every build is vulnerable to something. A build is only OP if it is not vulnerable to ANYTHING. In rock, paper, scissors, only the Deathstar is OP.

If the game were balanced, maybe. It’s not though. While cleanses are the preferred counter to conditions, most conditions can be applied instantly without any cooldown. More times than not they can’t be stacked or spread that easily without skill use (epidemic for example), but even in that case, the cooldown on epidemic is shorter than the cooldown on many dispells.

On top of that, not every class has a dispel. So you presume they’re the scissor to the rock? But these classes also don’t have a way to tear through your HP, your defenses, your heals, etc so they aren’t scissors so maybe they’re paper. But they can’t be paper because they aren’t beating condition builds that means… they’re mushrooms.

The problem is this game doesn’t have anything that works aside from bunker builds and condition builds. Most bunker builds are condition builds. But the one thing we don’t have in any great quantity is power builds anymore. Why? Because power builds are only good against condition builds, but not bunker builds…. (conditions counter bunkers per your RPS theory)but every condition build is also a bunker build.

Atherakhia.4086:

On top of that, not every class has a dispel.

Umm… No
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_remove_conditions

Every class has condition removal. Not every class has the same level of condition removal, but not every class can make a viable condition/tank either. If everything could counter condi/tank, then it would be underpowered.

The counter for condi/tank is a balanced build, with good condi-removal/sustain and some damage. For example, a well built DD ele could easily hard counter a condi/tank necro.

" But every build is vulnerable to something. A build is only OP if it is not vulnerable to ANYTHING. In rock, paper, scissors, only the Deathstar is OP."

Ah, finally a good name for my build

@Atherakhia:
We must play different games. Cuz what you write is not even close to the game I play…

Let’s look at Condie/“Tank” necro (to consider it tank is a joke, cuz a tank needs smth to counter CC what that necro does not have, if your necro condie/tank is rly a tank, please show me the build for it, I want to be enlightened)

What I am talking about is this: Heavy Condition Necromancer
There are several variations of that build. That’s how I use it. Utilities and elite can be easily switched.

This build offers huge, and I mean super huge, condition duration, dmg and stacking. However, the stacking is achieved via boon corruption, blood is power and the combination of marks. On a single target the Scepter/Dagger is really strong and only the Scepter auto atack is the one that can stack conditions really good without CD.

But do u see a stun breaker? Necros have, compared to other professions, horrible stun breakers. Do you see stability? Do you see a teleport? Stealth? Imunity?

This build is super weak egainst heavy CC builds and for example some warriors with high health pool and decent condition cleanse. And the very moment you meet more than one person, you can only try to fight your way out of the situation, but you won’t get away. The in combat mobility is very very weak. Marks can be dodged and on Focus/Dagger a good ranged character (like the kind of ranger I play) can keep that necromancer very well under control.

BTW, I saw many, really many necromancers falling to Ranger with the entangled roots elite skill (it happened to me too once or twice) after they blew their condition cleanse and heal too early. And they were stuck there, while the ranger finished them off from afar. And yesterday a necromancer friend of mine, who run almost the same build was 3 shot by a thief (not complaining, just explaining^^). So while this has very strong offensive capabilities, it is weak to so many many things.

Halo.8976:

CrassBippy.4619:

going high burst in power requires sacrifices in defense, vit, something.

Soldier’s: Power / Toughness / Vitality

Now you too can be OP.

… that’s not “burst” that’s “tanky”. burst requires precision crit dmg and power. Cond needs 1. So like I said, power builds must choose and sacrifice/hybrid their stats, cond dmg does not. They easily stack cond dmg toughness vit or heal power.

Requiem.8769:

TyPin.9860:

Requiem.8769:

Actually, Lemongrass counters conditions extremely well, even against Pizza buffs. Conditions are calculated for all additional duration, then diminished condition duration. Hence:
100% + pizza (40%) = 140% duration
140% + lemongrass (-40%) = .6 × 140% = 84% duration.

Wrong, there was another threat, where some1 made experiments on those condition duration thingies and showed that inna video. And it turned out that it’s simply: 100%+40%-40%=100%

My testing has shown otherwise.

I an curious to see your tests…

CrassBippy.4619:

Halo.8976:

CrassBippy.4619:

going high burst in power requires sacrifices in defense, vit, something.

Soldier’s: Power / Toughness / Vitality

Now you too can be OP.

… that’s not “burst” that’s “tanky”. burst requires precision crit dmg and power. Cond needs 1. So like I said, power builds must choose and sacrifice/hybrid their stats, cond dmg does not. They easily stack cond dmg toughness vit or heal power.

You get immediate damage with power/pre/crit dmg. You can only mitigate it with toughness.

With conds you do your damage over a longer period of time. You can mitigate it with condition removal and condition duration reduction.

You pay a price either way.