Guild Wars 2

hello

when are you thinking of getting foods away from wvw?

get whatever class – set it up berserk-knight with melandru rune or hoelbrack or antitoxin get a food -40% condition duration and voilà -60% or -65%!

simply hilarious!

whatever kind of build hybrid or condition MUST USE same food but +40% to get some conditions applied to any kind of those builds

i want wvw foods removed as in pvp (its enough having some runes that drop conditions duration)

regards

What makes this worse, are those traits, that reduce duration of soft cc, making some players immune to this kind of conditions, unless their opponent invests heavily into condition duration. Which most condiuser will do anyway, but for some powerbuilds this can be a big problem.

In general I don’t mind having food in wvw, but +/- 40% condi duration is way to much and should be removed or heavily nerfed (about 10-15% would be ok i think).

I sorta wish they’d get rid of Condi duration entirely and just give all Conditions a flat 50% boost. Maybe make it so Critcal hits with Condis applied a longer lasting duration or something?

Granted this sounds like a terrible idea but If it allows someone to springboard and create a better idea, please, step on it.

both condie duration increase and decrease food should receive a nerf. They are way too strong and become mandatory.

They don’t need to be removed. They just need to be set to appropriate values. There’s no reason +/- (ALL) Condition food needs to be 40% when Poison/Burning/Chill food is at +15% for the same level food.

Assuming the Poison/Burning/Chill food is at an appropriate value, then +/- (ALL) Condition food should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10%.

Comes out to ~8.2% if you use Giver weapons as a basis for comparison of stat distribution.

TheLastNobody.8319:

I sorta wish they’d get rid of Condi duration entirely and just give all Conditions a flat 50% boost. Maybe make it so Critcal hits with Condis applied a longer lasting duration or something?

Granted this sounds like a terrible idea but If it allows someone to springboard and create a better idea, please, step on it.

It’s actually not a bad idea. Having (possibly with a trait) allow condis applied via crit have longer durations. I would fix the +/- Condi food on top of this, but it would make condition builds put more weight on more offensive stats than only Condition Damage.

I dunno, I think they should stay. More diversity. It’s easy to counter it by using the opposite version of the food, -40% condi duration, maybe even further with runes etc.

Unfortunately hence saying that, I feel like some builds rely on these foods to be effective.

I once made a warri focused on non-damaging conditions (chill, immobilize etc) for max condi DURATION via the “+40 condi duration and +70 power” food so I think it’s just better build diversity overall.

Well it could be worse. We could be facing the trapper rune problem

its very wow when you get 15 stacks of confusion, 5 torment, 3poison,3 burning and 10 bleeds with 100% extra duration and you need to land a melee burst skill as warrior to cleanse them – and the kittener goes to stealth – see how far those -% food and traits gets you against condi classes. really great design. thank you anet. good job o7 i cant even express my gratitude for what you did with the game in this patch. really splendid work. thank you again! here is my number: 0800-greatdesign. would love you to call so we can have a chat. also have to say.. good job! really nice work. everyone can see you really have your competitive game nailed down. thanks again… will go write a personal letter to you now! see you guys, much love. also looking forward to more changes coming! the new guys really seems to understand what they are doing – trapper runes, torch trait, rampage, moa, confusion.. im stunned by all the excellence in design. want to send you teddybears and flowers, chocolate even. well just thank you very much! thank you! thank you! thank you! kisses hands, bows and crawls out of the room

You know, if you dodge or block an attack, those conditions don’t get applied. If you require landing an attack as your only means of cleansing a condition, that is your fault for running limited condition removal. I see no reason to change how one aspect of damage works for players who do not dodge or who run bad builds.

I think we don’t need to make WvW more like PvP because not everyone likes PvP. Allowing food in WvW allows for variety to happen. Although many run the same foods, or countering foods, food gives the opportunity to slightly tweak things that otherwise may not be tweakable. Little changes that turn out to be amazing is how metas start shifting and things start getting interesting – when people find those loopholes.

I don’t really see a need for a nerf on the condi +/- mainly because most larger scale groups run these foods and just cancel themselves out. It might pose a problem for roamers, I guess, but all the ones I know run special food for roaming and not zerg/larger group food.

Zephyra.4709:

I dunno, I think they should stay. More diversity. It’s easy to counter it by using the opposite version of the food, -40% condi duration, maybe even further with runes etc.

Actually there is no counter using food and runes, for a couple of reasons, firstly in WvW there is far more that can increase condi duration than can reduce it, it is not just a matter of runes + food, there are toxic sharpening stones that give a 10% increase, giver’s weapons that each give a 10% increase, sigil of malice that gives another 10% increase, (considered too OP for PvP), etc, so even if someone uses -40% food and say melandru runes, the amount they can decrease duration by in WvW is significantly less than it can be increased by.

Secondly you have the problem of power builds that rely on chill, cripple & immobilize to land their burst, if they take -40% food to defend against condi builds, then their soft CC becomes laughably short in duration when they face some guy with -40% food, hoelbrak/melandru runes, etc, but then if they take the +40% food so their soft CC works, they are then open to condi builds, they are screwed whichever way they go.

The whole condi duration imbalance in WvW is a fine example of one of the reasons roaming is considered a joke by anyone that actually understands the game, and is one the reasons roaming has gradually died off to the state it is in these days.

^ this

also thirdly cleansing options are kitten on most classes, which makes you rely on that food as a second much worse option. all the classes should get more cleanse and condi transfer right back in the face of them plex scrubs. not as a baseline, but as build options that are actually decent without making tradeoffs that completely kitten up your build or use an utility with a freakin 40 second cooldown on cleansing 3 conditions.

If you rely on crowd control conditions for your build to work, that is to ur problem. If I invest my traits to negate that, I am making the trade off of offense for defense. If I slot defensive runes to counter that, I am trading offense for defense. I cannot agree with this bad idea to make changes to the game to suit either a bad build, or the inability of you to land your skills.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Anet-the-condi-meta-in-WvW/page/4#post5404570

funghetto.1584:

hello

when are you thinking of getting foods away from wvw?

get whatever class – set it up berserk-knight with melandru rune or hoelbrack or antitoxin get a food -40% condition duration and voilà -60% or -65%!

simply hilarious!

whatever kind of build hybrid or condition MUST USE same food but +40% to get some conditions applied to any kind of those builds

i want wvw foods removed as in pvp (its enough having some runes that drop conditions duration)

regards

Personally, I would like to have a runeset that gives -20% to white damage received, and -40% white damage received foods instead of taking it all out. The balance is not supposed to be flat, its supposed to be rock / paper / scissors so the game does not become bland.

Currently we have runesets that give what 100-120ish toughness to reduce white damage taken ? That is nothing in comparison with -20% condi duration, it should be -20% white damage received instead of that toughness.

With a -40% white damage received foods that stack with runes, players would really have an option to go for that and the game would be balanced via the rock / paper / scissors scheme.

There also needs to be a food that gives major -% damage received while CCed. Currently there is only saffron bread which gives -20% while stunned, but thats only while stunned, not immobilized or chilled or anything else.

This way you dont need to nerf or remove anything, don’t need to rework any traits etc. Problem is condi specs have been done / balanced with this food in mind across PvE and WvW while power specs have not. So if you remove it then its a ton of work.

It may sound bad at first, but really its much better and easier to add more options rather then nerf / remove and go through another round of major spec changes. It would be up to each individual player what he/she wants their strong point and weak point to be.

As a bonus, this would also be another good step towards changing up the still existing GWEN meta, and WvW would become more inclusive of other professions / specs.

Have to disagree w/ OP, food and utility buffs should allows be an option in WvW since it allows for more variety and build options depending on the type of action you might be getting into at the time. PvP is kept the way it is to allow them to try and skill balance, you will never be able to balance the battles in WvW and should not restrict character builds to attempt to do so. If anything I prefer MORE food and utility buff options for WvW.

Funny how food hasnt changed at all since the games released, and now all of a sudden its a problem.

Sure, they can nerf condition food. Right after they buff necro condition duration.

Problem isnt condition food. The problem is condition applications for certain builds. I can understand how this complication would hurt the brains of the “nerf because i dont like” bandwagoners……..DUR I DIED 1V1 IN NT BALANCED FOR 1V1 PVERTRASHWVW, BOARDS SAY CONDITION FOOD BAD….NERF DOMINOS AND PAPA JOHNS!"

Still think food is the problem and not applications? See pvp boards about burning currently (cele eles and burn guardians).

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Funny how food hasnt changed at all since the games released, and now all of a sudden its a problem.

Threads about condie food are not a new thing, beyond that things have got worse due to power creep, for example you didn’t have toxic stones giving +10% at the start of the game.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Problem isnt condition food. The problem is condition applications for certain builds. I can understand how this complication would hurt the brains of the “nerf because i dont like” bandwagoners……..DUR I DIED 1V1 IN NT BALANCED FOR 1V1 PVERTRASHWVW, BOARDS SAY CONDITION FOOD BAD….NERF DOMINOS AND PAPA JOHNS!"

To use your phrase I realise that this may “hurt your brain”, but the idea that it is somehow good to increase imbalances further with silly consumables is pretty dumb, but then I guess that is the target market for this game, and to borrow another one of your phrases when 90% of WvW players are “PvE trash Tier” that cannot even interrupt a heal, I guess broken mechanics that carry their lack of ability are more attractive than better, more balanced gameplay.

But then judging by how many people roam now, I guess even most “PvE trash tier” players got bored of the lameness.

zinkz.7045:

Threads about condie food are not a new thing, beyond that things have got worse due to power creep, for example you didn’t have toxic stones giving +10% at the start of the game.

I’m pretty sure I’ve been using Veggie pizza for almost 3 years now.

To use your phrase I realise that this may “hurt your brain”, but the idea that it is somehow good to increase imbalances further with silly consumables is pretty dumb, but then I guess that is the target market for this game, and to borrow another one of your phrases when 90% of WvW players are “PvE trash Tier” that cannot even interrupt a heal, I guess broken mechanics that carry their lack of ability are more attractive than better, more balanced gameplay.

So wait, which one is it? It is condition application? Or condition food? So youre saying that because 1 thing is overpowered, you should nerf the other instead, thus not fixing the core issue?

THAT is the dumb idea sir

Are you saying anet should balance the game based off how bad people are? The entire PvE side has been ruined by this logic fyi.

But then judging by how many people roam now, I guess even most “PvE trash tier” players got bored of the lameness.

It could quite possibly be that WvW is trash due to anets neglect over the years.

Heres a question. Do you consider condition necros with +condition food to be overpowered? I really want to hear your answer.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

zinkz.7045:

Threads about condie food are not a new thing, beyond that things have got worse due to power creep, for example you didn’t have toxic stones giving +10% at the start of the game.

I’m pretty sure I’ve been using Veggie pizza for almost 3 years now.

No idea how you think that relates to what I wrote.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

So wait, which one is it? It is condition application? Or condition food? So youre saying that because 1 thing is overpowered, you should nerf the other instead, thus not fixing the core issue?

No I am saying the game is not balanced in PvP, in WvW that balance is even worse, so then adding silly consumables on top of that just makes imbalances worse, which is not a good thing.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Are you saying anet should balance the game based off how bad people are? The entire PvE side has been ruined by this logic fyi.

The PvE side is “ruined” because they designed and balanced the game around PvP and it didn’t translate well to PvE, then add the dungeons/mobs/boss design are generally also pretty poor, and you have crappy PvE, not sure how that is balancing for “bad people”.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Heres a question. Do you consider condition necros with +condition food to be overpowered? I really want to hear your answer.

I consider =/- 40% condie food to be imbalanced regardless of who is using it, damage skills, cleanse, cc, etc are all designed around PvP and the durations available in there, the sigils, food, stones, etc, in WvW completely break that.

zinkz.7045:

I consider =/- 40% condie food to be imbalanced regardless of who is using it, damage skills, cleanse, cc, etc are all designed around PvP and the durations available in there, the sigils, food, stones, etc, in WvW completely break that.

And with this answer, I now know that responding to you is a waste of time.

You should take this answer over to the necro forum and see what kind of responses you get. Because as far as the class is concerned, you cant even play a condition necro without the food, as its 100% mandatory. The food itself is the only thing that makes it viable. Again, dont believe me? Care to point out any viable condition necro builds for spvp? I only see power based ones. Yet, I see at least 1 class that can build full condition without food, and 1 class who doesnt even touch condition gear but is causing a huge amount of chaos because of the amount of burn stacks they can apply.

Hmm…. I wonder which one the problem is.

So yes, take away the condition food. I’ll expect a +40% duration increase to all necro applied conditions in return.

zinkz.7045:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Funny how food hasnt changed at all since the games released, and now all of a sudden its a problem.

Threads about condie food are not a new thing, beyond that things have got worse due to power creep, for example you didn’t have toxic stones giving +10% at the start of the game.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Problem isnt condition food. The problem is condition applications for certain builds. I can understand how this complication would hurt the brains of the “nerf because i dont like” bandwagoners……..DUR I DIED 1V1 IN NT BALANCED FOR 1V1 PVERTRASHWVW, BOARDS SAY CONDITION FOOD BAD….NERF DOMINOS AND PAPA JOHNS!"

To use your phrase I realise that this may “hurt your brain”, but the idea that it is somehow good to increase imbalances further with silly consumables is pretty dumb, but then I guess that is the target market for this game, and to borrow another one of your phrases when 90% of WvW players are “PvE trash Tier” that cannot even interrupt a heal, I guess broken mechanics that carry their lack of ability are more attractive than better, more balanced gameplay.

But then judging by how many people roam now, I guess even most “PvE trash tier” players got bored of the lameness.

your idea of balance is flawed in 2 very basic ways.

1. You think its supposed to be equal. It isnt. Its supposed to be rock / paper / scissors. So you will always have some builds that will always right down annihilate other builds in a given situation. For example, conditions, overperforming in very small scale and 1v1, underperforming in group vs group. This is the reason for it.

2. You are focused on 1 v 1. the game is balanced on Team comp vs Team comp, with things such as venomshare or team cleansing or team aegis come into play. It is up to you to make sure you are running the correct 5 man team comp and going against anotehr 5 man for it to be balanced. In addition, it is also your responsibility, that you run with people who know when to pop that aegis on you, or cleanse you, not just themselves.

Going back to foods, I would really like to see more foods rather then less, so the rock / paper / scissors aspect of the game is brought even more to the forefront and we have better choices then just -40% + 40% condi duration.

Things that come to my mind:

-40% damage taken while under effect of stun, daze, chill, cripple, immobilize
+40% damage dealt to targets that are stunned , chilled, crippled or immobilized
+40% damage dealt to targets under effect of swiftness
+70 vitality, can not be critically hit
+70 healing power, +40% regeneration duration
+70 toughness, +40% protection duration

etc. etc.

make the gameplay really chaotic and interesting.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Care to point out any viable condition necro builds for spvp? I only see power based ones. Yet, I see at least 2 classes that can build full condition without food. Hmm….

So yes, take away the condition food. I’ll expect a +40% duration increase to all necro applied conditions in return.

You seem to be crying about your perceived status of necros rather than addressing the actual topic, I realize logic isn’t your strength, but if two other classes can function well in PvP as full condi then adding 40% food, 10% sharpening stone, 10% givers weapon, dire armour, etc on top of that does exactly what I said , it imbalances the game further. Or how about before they nerfed condi necro in reactin to dhumfire, when back then most necros in PvP played condi, you still need your 40% food then?

I haven’t played my necro since the big patch, but you know what I have played the perplexity, +100% condi duration, dire/rabid mix, etc in the past and it was faceroll, 90% of opponents classes/builds were at a clear disadvantage, because cleanses do not magically scale to that new duration, and as much as people can reduce condi duration in WvW with -40% food, and runes, that sort of build can increase it further, but I guess PvE/WvW bads need their crutch…

Tongku.5326:

your idea of balance is flawed in 2 very basic ways.

1. You think its supposed to be equal. It isnt. Its supposed to be rock / paper / scissors. So you will always have some builds that will always right down annihilate other builds in a given situation. For example, conditions, overperforming in very small scale and 1v1, underperforming in group vs group. This is the reason for it.

Wrong, I don’t think it is supposed to be equal, it isn’t equal in PvP, I think that making the rock/paper/scissors far more extreme with food, stones, dire gear, etc, creates moronically bad and boring gameplay.

Tongku.5326:

2. You are focused on 1 v 1. the game is balanced on Team comp vs Team comp, with things such as venomshare or team cleansing or team aegis come into play. It is up to you to make sure you are running the correct 5 man team comp and going against anotehr 5 man for it to be balanced. In addition, it is also your responsibility, that you run with people who know when to pop that aegis on you, or cleanse you, not just themselves.

The game is “balanced” on tPvP conquest team comps, WvW balance is a joke in pretty much every aspect, condie is a fine example, in 1v1 it is too strong, but when facing a melee ball of tanky guards/warriors spamming AOE heals & cleanse, it is too weak, but again that just takes me back to my point, adding ridiculously strong consumables often makes the balance differences more extreme.

Tongku.5326:

Going back to foods, I would really like to see more foods rather then less, so the rock / paper / scissors aspect of the game is brought even more to the forefront and we have better choices then just -40% + 40% condi duration.

Things that come to my mind:

-40% damage taken while under effect of stun, daze, chill, cripple, immobilize
+40% damage dealt to targets that are stunned , chilled, crippled or immobilized
+40% damage dealt to targets under effect of swiftness
+70 vitality, can not be critically hit
+70 healing power, +40% regeneration duration
+70 toughness, +40% protection duration

etc. etc.

make the gameplay really chaotic and interesting.

Which to me would make the gameplay even more skilless, cheesy and boring.

zinkz.7045:

You seem to be crying about your perceived status of necros rather than addressing the actual topic,

You mean the topic of PvEWvW’ers seem to think that a food item thats been in game for over 3 years is suddenly a problem instead of looking at the classes themselves? You know, that big build change we just got?

I realize logic isn’t your strength, but if two other classes can function well in PvP as full condi then adding 40% food, 10% sharpening stone, 10% givers weapon, dire armour, etc on top of that does exactly what I said , it imbalances the game further.

Except there is no imbalance, or else condition builds would be rampant in sPvP. The only ones that think so are zerker running classes thinking they can 1v1 builds that are specially made for 1v1, are not as good at this game as they think they are. Because condition builds are only good for small scale, and garbage for large scale. Last I checked, WvW was balanced around large scale battles.

Condition builds are trash outside of their 1 niche roaming playstyle. I’m still waiting for conditions to effect structures. Anet, please balance this, its sad watching my necro do 200 damage a swing to a structure, why elementalist can kill them in a single cooldown.

You are blaming a food item that has never been a problem before now, instead of looking at the balance issues that the build change to classes we just got. Try aiming your rage at condition rangers, you might have more luck.

Or how about before they nerfed condi necro in reactin to dhumfire, when back then most necros in PvP played condi, you still need your 40% food then?

No, because you cant and never have been able to use food in spvp.

I haven’t played my necro since the big patch, but you know what I have played the perplexity, +100% condi duration, dire/rabid mix, etc in the past and it was faceroll, 90% of opponents classes/builds were at a clear disadvantage, because cleanses do not magically scale to that new duration, and as much as people can reduce condi duration in WvW with -40% food, and runes, that sort of build can increase it further, but I guess PvE/WvW bads need their crutch…

And yet the currently strongest build

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Celestial_Signet

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Wells_Backline

are a power build and hybrid build.

zinkz.7045:

Wrong, I don’t think it is supposed to be equal, it isn’t equal in PvP, I think that making the rock/paper/scissors far more extreme with food, stones, dire gear, etc, creates moronically bad and boring gameplay.

If you think it is or is supposed to be “rock/paper/scissors” then you are the one who is wrong.

10 pure condition builds attacking a group of 10 anything will do garbage for damage. Too much coordinated AoE cleansing and condition conversion.

That is not balance. Anet, please increase condition duration food to 100% please.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

You mean the topic of PvEWvW’ers seem to think that a food item thats been in game for over 3 years is suddenly a problem instead of looking at the classes themselves? You know, that big build change we just got?

You must be new, there have been been complaint on condi duration food long before the last big patch.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Except there is no imbalance, or else condition builds would be rampant in sPvP. The only ones that think so are zerker running classes thinking they can 1v1 builds that are specially made for 1v1, are not as good at this game as they think they are. Because condition builds are only good for small scale, and garbage for large scale. You are blaming a food item that has never been a problem before now, instead of looking at the balance issues that the build change to classes we just got. Try aiming your rage at condition rangers, you might have more luck.

Again you quote something and seem to be responding to something else… Also there is no “rage” I haven’t bother to roam much in WvW for a long time, the issues go beyond condi food, their is huge imbalance in disengage, it isn’t real open PvP so most players on the map are in zergs/raids/sat in stuctures, the WvW playerbase is bad (as in it is very PvE, rather than PvP, which means a lot of running away /avoiding fights), and so on, really it is pretty bad game for roaming, and the one thing it has going for it – small maps, is going away with the expansion.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Or how about before they nerfed condi necro in reactin to dhumfire, when back then most necros in PvP played condi, you still need your 40% food then?

No, because you cant and never have been able to use food in spvp.

Whoosh… The point which you clearly missed is earlier you claimed your necro needed condi food to compensate because necro condi builds are not meta in PvP and therefore weak, yet condi necro was once the default choice in PvP, so did you not use condi food in WvW when most necros played condi necro in PvP?

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

And yet the currently strongest build

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Celestial_Signet

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Wells_Backline

are power builds.

Which has nothing to do with what you quoted, or do you think I was going on about a tPvP build with perplexity runes, condi food, etc…

coglin.1867:

zinkz.7045:

Wrong, I don’t think it is supposed to be equal, it isn’t equal in PvP, I think that making the rock/paper/scissors far more extreme with food, stones, dire gear, etc, creates moronically bad and boring gameplay.

If you think it is or is supposed to be “rock/paper/scissors” then you are the one who is wrong.

10 pure condition builds attacking a group of 10 anything will do garbage for damage. Too much coordinated AoE cleansing and condition conversion.

That is not balance. Anet, please increase condition duration food to 100% please.

If you don’t understand this game is very rock/paper/scissors then that is your failing, go watch Helseth when he talks through one of his PvP games and you’ll see how he describes how which players (and their respective class) should rotate where, to create favourable matchups, or how player X made a stupid decision to 1v1 class X on their class as their class is at a big disadvantage in that 1v1 – ‘rock, paper’scissors’.

As for your 10, like I said before game is balanced for 5v5 tPvP conquest mode, WvW balance is a joke in every aspect, if you try and condi a group of 10 guards/eles/warriors in zerg builds for example sure it is ineffective, because the game is not balanced for that amount of healing / condi cleanse in a large group, likewise in 1v1 other than against a tiny proportion of builds like certain ele builds, a condi build becomes much too effective because cleanses stay the same as PvP, whilst + condi duration can be increased by silly amounts and to a greater extent than it can be reduced and you have stats like dire that were thrown out of PvP because they are broken OP.

All things like +/- 40% duration do is make an already poorly balanced game mode, even more imbalanced, which is why they don’t have this crap in PvP.

zinkz.7045:

coglin.1867:

zinkz.7045:

Wrong, I don’t think it is supposed to be equal, it isn’t equal in PvP, I think that making the rock/paper/scissors far more extreme with food, stones, dire gear, etc, creates moronically bad and boring gameplay.

If you think it is or is supposed to be “rock/paper/scissors” then you are the one who is wrong.

10 pure condition builds attacking a group of 10 anything will do garbage for damage. Too much coordinated AoE cleansing and condition conversion.

That is not balance. Anet, please increase condition duration food to 100% please.

If you don’t understand this game is very rock/paper/scissors then that is your failing, go watch Helseth when he talks through one of his PvP games and you’ll see how he describes how which players should rotate where, to create good matchups, or how player X made a stupid decision to 1v1 class X on their class as their class is at a disadvanatge in that 1v1 – ‘rock, paper’scissors’.

As for your 10, like I said before game is balanced for 5v5 tPvP conquest mode, WvW balance is a joke in every aspect, if you try and condi a group of 10 guards/eles/warriors in zerg builds for example sure it is ineffective, because the game is not balanced for that amount of healing / condi cleanse in a large group, likewise in 1v1 other than against a tiny proportion of builds like certain ele builds, a condi build becomes much too effective because cleanses stay the same as PvP, whilst + condi duration can be increased by silly amounts and to a greater extent than it can be reduced and you have stats like dire that were thrown out of PvP because they are broken OP.

I was being sarcastic about the rock/paper/scissors, sorry you missed that.

I am glad you agree that with larger forces, conditions are neutered and underpowered.

What are you talking about WvW balance for? It was stated before, during, and after release that professions, builds, and damage types were never intended to be balanced. So what kind of logic would a person be using, to cry about a damage types balance in order to make a point? Particularly after you agree in larger forces that AoE condition cleanses and conversions makes condition damage under powered.

coglin.1867:

What are you talking about WvW balance for? It was stated before, during, and after release that professions, builds, and damage types were never intended to be balanced.

No it wasn’t, it was stated WvW was not meant to be balanced in relation to population, not class balance.

zinkz.7045:

coglin.1867:

What are you talking about WvW balance for? It was stated before, during, and after release that professions, builds, and damage types were never intended to be balanced.

No it wasn’t, it was stated WvW was not meant to be balanced in relation to population, not class balance.

Got a link to support that specification you are claiming?

coglin.1867:

zinkz.7045:

coglin.1867:

What are you talking about WvW balance for? It was stated before, during, and after release that professions, builds, and damage types were never intended to be balanced.

No it wasn’t, it was stated WvW was not meant to be balanced in relation to population, not class balance.

Got a link to support that specification you are claiming?

Got a link to support the specification that it includes class balance?

zinkz.7045:

You must be new, there have been been complaint on condi duration food long before the last big patch.

Whatever you say.

I saw someone complaining about critters in wvw once. Nerf critters.

Again you quote something and seem to be responding to something else… Also there is no “rage” I haven’t bother to roam much in WvW for a long time, the issues go beyond condi food, their is huge imbalance in disengage, it isn’t real open PvP so most players on the map are in zergs/raids/sat in stuctures, the WvW playerbase is bad (as in it is very PvE, rather than PvP, which means a lot of running away /avoiding fights), and so on, really it is pretty bad game for roaming, and the one thing it has going for it – small maps, is going away with the expansion.

so whats the problem then?

Whoosh… The point which you clearly missed is earlier you claimed your necro needed condi food to compensate because necro condi builds are not meta in PvP and therefore weak, yet condi necro was once the default choice in PvP, so did you not use condi food in WvW when most necros played condi necro in PvP?

Oh sorry, are you talking about that build that was nerfed after about a week?

Tell me more about how condition food was the reason it was so strong.

Which has nothing to do with what you quoted, or do you think I was going on about a tPvP build with perplexity runes, condi food, etc…

Except if condition foods and runes were a problem, their build would be listed up there along with the ones I linked.

They arent. Because necro condition builds are a niche build and only viable in small scale fights. Just like every other condition build.

If condition food was the problem. Every condition using class would be running rampant.

Got a link to support the specification that it includes class balance?

I actually recall them stating WvW would not influence class balance during beta interviews. However, those are not that easy to find anymore.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Except if condition foods and runes were a problem, their build would be listed up there along with the ones I linked.

They arent.

Well I’m not sure how the backline wells thing is relevant I assume we are talking roaming/small scale not zergs, but perhaps you should look at signet roamer build because guess what food it uses – koi cake and master tuning crystal, and guess what it describes the koi cake as “Absolutely mandatory.”.

I’d also point out that on Reddit the other week someone complained about the lack of WvW builds on metabattle and the guy who runs it stated they simply don’t get many builds submitted for WvW.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

I actually recall them stating WvW would not influence class balance during beta interviews. However, those are not that easy to find anymore.

I don’t disagree that they pay very little attention to WvW when it comes to class balance, I just think people misquote the whole WvW is unbalanced thing, when I seem to remember it was about population / being outnumbered, maybe I remember wrong, either way I find it strange that people quote it as it they think it is a good thing that class balance should be ignored in the part of the game they play.

zinkz.7045:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Except if condition foods and runes were a problem, their build would be listed up there along with the ones I linked.

They arent.

Well I’m not sure how the backline wells thing is relevant I assume we are talking roaming/small scale not zergs, but perhaps you should look at cele signet build because guess what food it uses – koi cake and master tuning crystal, and guess what it describes the koi cake as “Absolutely mandatory.”.

A single individual posted a build somewhere, and a single individual “claimed” it was mandatory. I do not see how some random person who posted a build, serves as evidence for anything.

zinkz.7045:

Well I’m not sure how the backline wells thing is relevant I assume we are talking roaming/small scale not zergs, but perhaps you should look at cele signet build because guess what food it uses -

I’m going to say that after looking at it for about 5 seconds, that it has no food listed, and you fail.

You must be thinking of the signet roamer build that requires (absolutely mandatory) condition food, which is exactly what I said earlier about not all conditions being them problem, and that is all in the class balance.

You essentially agreed with both people that you disagreed with now. Thank you for your time.

coglin.1867:

A single individual posted a build somewhere, and a single individual “claimed” it was mandatory. I do not see how some random person who posted a build, serves as evidence for anything.

Actually, its just like you said. If condition food is mandatory for this, it means conditions are indeed underpowered and need a buff

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

zinkz.7045:

Well I’m not sure how the backline wells thing is relevant I assume we are talking roaming/small scale not zergs, but perhaps you should look at cele signet build because guess what food it uses -

I’m going to say that after looking at it for about 5 seconds, that it has no food listed, and you fail.

You must be thinking of the signet roamer build that requires (absolutely mandatory) condition food, which is exactly what I said earlier about not all conditions being them problem, and that is all in the class balance.

Yes I was talking about the signet roamer build.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

You essentially agreed with both people that you disagreed with now. Thank you for your time.

Not idea what you are on about, I’ve done no such thing.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Actually, its just like you said. If condition food is mandatory for this, it means conditions are indeed underpowered and need a buff

Or for the actual reality, which is increasing your condi duration of all condies by a massive 40% so condie cleansing cannot keep up is broken as kitten, hence is mandatory.

coglin.1867:

A single individual posted a build somewhere, and a single individual “claimed” it was mandatory. I do not see how some random person who posted a build, serves as evidence for anything.

Zanther started introducing metabattle as “evidence”, it is just rather amusing that the WvW signet version uses the said food and describes it as “Absolutely mandatory”.

zinkz.7045:

Or for the actual reality, which is increasing your condi duration of all condies by a massive 40% is broken as kitten, hence is mandatory.

I feel you either mandatory doesn’t actually mean what you think it means, or are over exaggerating with ridiculous hyperbole.

If it is broken, then please post your damage calculations. Mine show that condition builds do not particularly do more damage then direct damage builds. Less in many cases.

If your going to suggest it is so over powered, can you post the damage break down please?

zinkz.7045:

Zanther started introducing metabattle as “evidence”, it is just rather amusing that the WvW signet version uses the said food and describes it as “Absolutely mandatory”.

So?

Someone else using some other single individuals skewed opinion as “proof” all of the sudden makes it “proof”? If he jumps off a bridge, do you follow?

zinkz.7045:

Not at all, you seem to be obsessed with condi necro rather than the actual topic, you list two builds, yet hilariously one of them is cele and uses the food and describes it as mandatory.

Its actually a Rabid build.
I use the class as its the best example and the one I have most experience in, because my argument is that its not the food, its the class applications. That by nerfing food, you indirectly nerf classes that are already sub par.

I guess I could fake it and say I main every class though.

Or for the actual reality, which is increasing your condi duration of all condies by a massive 40% is broken as kitten, hence is mandatory.

Or that its mandatory because it simply wont work without it, hence again why that its one of the reasons theres no spvp condition meta builds.

But tell me more about how condition necros are overpowered because of food, despite the almost universal agreement that its the opposite.

coglin.1867:

zinkz.7045:

Or for the actual reality, which is increasing your condi duration of all condies by a massive 40% is broken as kitten, hence is mandatory.

I feel you either mandatory doesn’t actually mean what you think it means, or are over exaggerating with ridiculous hyperbole.

I see you are off with your typical empty rhetoric.

coglin.1867:

If it is broken, then please post your damage calculations. Mine show that condition builds do not particularly do more damage then direct damage builds. Less in many cases.

If your going to suggest it is so over powered, can you post the damage break down please?

That you think PvP works simply on the basis of damage calculations is hilarious, but is no surprise, if you want meaningless damage calculations do them yourself, though quite how you would do them is a mystery, if I hit someone with blowtorch on engi, how do you decide how much damage it does, at what point do they have a cleanse?

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

But tell me more about how condition necros are overpowered because of food, despite the almost universal agreement that its the opposite.

Perhaps you should start a new thread you seem to want to discuss condi necro rather than the food.

zinkz.7045:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

But tell me more about how condition necros are overpowered because of food, despite the almost universal agreement that its the opposite.

Perhaps you should start a new thread you seem to want to discuss condi necro rather than the food.

I dont need too, its all the proof I need to show you that your argument is flawed.

zinkz.7045:

coglin.1867:

zinkz.7045:

Or for the actual reality, which is increasing your condi duration of all condies by a massive 40% is broken as kitten, hence is mandatory.

I feel you either mandatory doesn’t actually mean what you think it means, or are over exaggerating with ridiculous hyperbole.

I see you are off with your typical empty rhetoric.

I am confused. How is my explaining what a word actually means, rhetoric?

zinkz.7045:

coglin.1867:

If it is broken, then please post your damage calculations. Mine show that condition builds do not particularly do more damage then direct damage builds. Less in many cases.

If your going to suggest it is so over powered, can you post the damage break down please?

That you think PvP works simply on the basis of damage calculations is hilarious, but is no surprise, if you want meaningless damage calculations do them yourself, though quite how you would do them is a mystery.

Can you highlight a post where I made such a statement?

You appear confused. You stated builds using a specific damage type (condition damage) has over powered damage outputs.

If two builds have equivalent defensive capability, unless you can offer proof that one of the builds has an advantage in the aspect of damage output over the other one, your simply blowing smoke and kicking opinions around. I find it odd that you find that “hilarious”

I am curious about how damage out put is meaningless in this game. Can you explain that to me? Because your agenda here, appears to be to claim one damage out put as doing more damage then the other. Your very confusing in the contradiction of your statements.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

zinkz.7045:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

But tell me more about how condition necros are overpowered because of food, despite the almost universal agreement that its the opposite.

Perhaps you should start a new thread you seem to want to discuss condi necro rather than the food.

I dont need too, its all the proof I need to show you that your argument is flawed.

You want to show my argument is flawed when in the WvW section of the site you brought into this there is a roaming condi necro using the aforementioned food and it is considered “great”, okay…

Or is it that you think that because cele necro is strong in the current PvP meta and condi necro is not that somehow the current state of 5v5 PvP conquest mode has any bearing on what is strong in WvW, hint – it doesn’t.

zinkz.7045:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

zinkz.7045:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

But tell me more about how condition necros are overpowered because of food, despite the almost universal agreement that its the opposite.

Perhaps you should start a new thread you seem to want to discuss condi necro rather than the food.

I dont need too, its all the proof I need to show you that your argument is flawed.

You want to show my argument is flawed when in the WvW section of the site you brought into this there is a roaming condi necro using the aforementioned food and it is considered “great”, okay…

.

Theres a lot of builds rated “great” that range from every stat.

And it absolutely does have a bearing. If condition builds arent considered “the best” builds universally for every WvW build, it means food for a certain damage type that almost every class has isnt the problem.

Condition builds will not win you large scale battles, which is what WvW is designed for. Food is not the problem as many condition based builds are not considered overpowered because of it. Only a few select builds are considered to strong because of food, thus the class itself is probably the problem (if it should even be considered it a problem). Aoe builds are considered the best for large scale battles, maybe we should nerf power food now?

Unless you can honestly say with a straight face that every class that has access to condition damage somehow becomes magically overpowered with the use of this single item (in which case you’re delusional), then you have lost and you need to admit it.

coglin.1867:

I am confused. How is my explaining what a word actually means, rhetoric?

Empty Rhetoric – “Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous”.

coglin.1867:

Can you highlight a post where I made such a statement?

You appear confused. You stated builds using a specific damage type (condition damage) has over powered damage outputs.

If two builds have equivalent defensive capability, unless you can offer proof that one of the builds has an advantage in the aspect of damage output over the other one, your simply blowing smoke and kicking opinions around. I find it odd that you find that “hilarious”

I am curious about how damage out put is meaningless in this game. Can you explain that to me? Because your agenda here, appears to be to claim one damage out put as doing more damage then the other. Your very confusing in the contradiction of your statements.

I said damage output calculations are meaningless in PvP, they show nothing of value, if I play condi engy my blowtorch from short range on crit with incendiary ammo, the bleed trait, and the flamethrower toolbelt skill does if I remember correctly about 37k over 16 seconds, now what does it actually do in practice, when does someone cleanse, how many condies are covering the burn, does the opponent have -40% food, melandru runes, etc, how difficult is it to apply, is it easier or harder than whatever I compare it to, etc, It is not PvE where you stack in place and max your DPS against dumb AI and the same mobs/boss over and over.

Yeah, but I would play with common sense and cleanse it after one or two seconds. it is just common sense. I may even convert it into aegis with Elixir C, that converts all conditions into boons. Assuming I didn’t dodge or block it in the first place.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Condition builds will not win you large scale battles, which is what WvW is designed for. Food is not the problem as many condition based builds are not considered overpowered because of it. Only a few select builds are considered to strong because of food, thus the class itself is probably the problem (if it should even be considered it a problem). Aoe builds are considered the best for large scale battles, maybe we should nerf power food now?

I agree condie builds will not win large scale battles, and yes that has nothing to do with food. Though you know what food melee uses – lemongrass (-40% condi duration), you seem to have missed it, but I’ve specified more than once that is both the +40% & the -40% foods that are OP, I’m fine with nerfing the food they use in large scale battles.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Unless you can honestly say with a straight face that every class that has access to condition damage somehow becomes magically overpowered with the use of this single item (in which case you’re delusional), then you have lost and you need to admit it.

In WvW when it comes to roaming, it is more of a combination of things, Dire stats for example give a ridiculous defensive advantage to condi builds, so ridiculous that dire was considered too imbalanced to be allowed in PvP, it is then when you add +40% food on top of that, +10% from toxic sharpening stone, and at times things like malice (again considered too broken for PvP), givers, etc that condi becomes silly OP when roaming.

Now for the food specifically it really is the only consumable where people often think they must use it (be it -40% or +40%), and the reason for that is the ridiculous 40% figure, the power equivalent is 10% (seaweed salad), the condition specific food only adds 15%, 40% is simply ridiculous it is far too strong.