Guild Wars 2

Why why why would u disable parties when u are in squad, do u even know why parties are formed. To distrivute boons to right people! With parties gone in squads melee can get 25 stacks of stability when someone might be left without. Why would anyone use squads than, unless u prioritise your subgroup, when using skill, over whole squad?
Can a dev elaborate this?

“It will no longer be possible to be in a squad and a party at the same time…”

I logged in to ask this same question. This makes no sense. Prioritizing boons/buffs/healing/cleansing takes priority over having people organized in a squad.

Lol reading this makes no sense. Spurnshadow.3678 is that a quote from an up-coming update? Sorry for the lack of knowledge.

The comander can place you in sub squads of 5 just like parties, buffs will be prioritized based on sub squad, same a parties.

1. Sub squads? I don’t get it. Are those sub squads in the big squad? (joining by clicking on his name and Join Squad option).
2. What’s the point of sub squads basically?

yarINvincible.1243:

1. Sub squads? I don’t get it. Are those sub squads in the big squad? (joining by clicking on his name and Join Squad option).
2. What’s the point of sub squads basically?

OK, seems you don’t get out into WvW very much… Yes the sub squads are part of the main squad. So, this functionality allows everyone who is following a comander to be organized into appropriately composed groups for maximum profession synergy. The commander can see all of the professions that are available and group them, he/she can also see the amount of supply in each sub group and in the entire group. He will also be able to see all group members on the map at all times. Having individuals party up correctly is much more tedious and time consuming and generally leads to poor party composition. Also, knowing what the composition of the entire group following the tag allows the commander to better understand the overall fighting strength of the group.

I do play alot on WvW frankly, haha. Mostly WvW.
However, I really didn’t know that. So basically the commander has endless amount of groups HE creates HIMSELF, right? And you can see all of the groups’ players all around the map?

Yep, max 50 people in the entire squad and I think no more than 12 sub squads.

Tspatula.9086:

The comander can place you in sub squads of 5 just like parties, buffs will be prioritized based on sub squad, same a parties.

I’ve been following all this very closely. There’s no literature anywhere that says this. Please quote your reference for your statement.

As a commander, I don’t want to spend all my time managing parties. I’ve a lot more things to worry about.

Tspatula.9086:

The comander can place you in sub squads of 5 just like parties, buffs will be prioritized based on sub squad, same a parties.

I speculated the same, however without conformation I am still a bit concerned. This would make sense, will absolutely have to test this out.

Can anyone find all of that stuff written somewhere? I’m kind of confused. The commander has the ability to divide people to parties? Do the people see the parties they’ve been put on? What if there are 12 sub squads, will he see all the 60 (5 parties x 12 max sub parties) players on the map? How can he prioritize the buffs to the players?

The info about the sub squads working like parties isn’t written anywhere it was said very quick in one of the live streams.

I’m just curious if we will be able to move ourselves into subgroups instead of making the commander do all the work :P

So there’s in point talking about it then, I understand. We’ll wait to see what’s happening in the future. Thanks Pink Ninja Man.4375

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

The info about the sub squads working like parties isn’t written anywhere it was said very quick in one of the live streams.

I’m just curious if we will be able to move ourselves into subgroups instead of making the commander do all the work :P

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3murg1/introducing_enhanced_squad_ui/cvi9xil?context=3

(funny to link a reddit reply for an official source…)

Dawntree.7246:

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

The info about the sub squads working like parties isn’t written anywhere it was said very quick in one of the live streams.

I’m just curious if we will be able to move ourselves into subgroups instead of making the commander do all the work :P

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3murg1/introducing_enhanced_squad_ui/cvi9xil?context=3

(funny to link a reddit reply for an official source…)

I mean official on their site via a new article or forum post, now that is fixed though thanks to above (I don’t check reddit much)

Sounds like this will be a waste for WvW. This is way too much micromanagement for a commander. Also, will you be able to have 2 or more active tags visible in the same squad? This is important for backline commander or scout. Can we have someone else in the squad micromanage the subsquads so the commander can command? If the answers to these questions are no, then I don’t see a point in using squads for WvW.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Sounds like this will be a waste for WvW. This is way too much micromanagement for a commander.

No this is great! Maybe you’re used to running with a highly coordinated guild that has class assignments and players who regularly form parties together. More casual groups have to be helped along and it is done with way more manual methods. Squad UI simplifies that all.

It’s funny seeing people getting all riled up over a feature when they don’t even know half of it.

Please, please, please implement the ability to assign waypoint markers on a sub-squad by sub-squad basis.

Just as commanders currently have access to four icons they can place on the map which can be seen by all squad members, simply extend this functionality to all the sub-squads.

In this way, the commander can mark on the map specific objectives for each sub-squad. For example, sub-squad #1 might be given an icon tasking them to defend point A, sub-squad #2 an icon tasking them with attacking/capturing point B, sub-squads #3, #4, and #5 an icon indicating to rally at point C, etc.

There is serious risk of too many options, too complicated and cumbersome of an interface. Those that could benefit the most from those kinds of options, will use it the least, because it’s far easier to tell someone than to deal with a dozen different options.

As it is, it seems that the tag is going to be expected to setup and assign groups (although I don’t know if it has been said if individuals can form their own groups? If so I have seen no information stating). This gets a bit ridiculous tbh. Take WvW for example. People party up for various reasons, anything from wanting to run with friends, to just talking to people that may not even be in the same map, or even same server, which of course a squad wouldn’t want those to join. Others join squads so they don’t see different tags, but should someone that you are somewhat following be able to dictate where you go, who you join with, and whether or not you can essentially follow them?

Oh don’t misunderstand, I know some have wanted some of these features, but a lot of it won’t necessarily benefit the more organized guild groups who are most likely already in voice chat, although can’t deny that some of the new features and behavior will see use, nor will the micromanagement aspect really benefit the random pugs without driving the commander crazier (pug commanding is first sign of crazy, but those commanders are needed, but the good ones are crazy. Which, can you imagine a pug commander trying to micromanage everything the pugs try to do? I’m torn between it turning out like herding cats to being a complete disaster, both might be quite hilarious to watch for a bit).

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

There is serious risk of too many options, too complicated and cumbersome of an interface.

Indeed.

If you cant be in a party and squad at the same time, people already in parties (maybe roaming with a friend and a commander come along, maybe having a 5 man perfectly designed party already etc) will probably not take the time to leave the party and “get organized” by the commander.

But I do see how it can be usefull for something like 20 man guild raids, where its still manageable.

The thing I fear the most is that this will bring out the elitist followers going “but you’re not using the squad UI, we cant follow you noob lol”. Its meant to help, but it would be sad if it make the already low commander numbers even fewer. I hope its easy, simple and fast to use.

Its a good idea on paper but as other have mentioned the no parties is a major flaw with the system. If I’m grouped with guild mates or friends I do not feel its productive to split us up because of squads, we simply won’t bother joining. I have a feeling many will take this stance and the whole system for WvW will become pointless.

Sounds like a great tool for EBG pugmanders… now, if only there was a way to force the pugmander;s voice through the pugs’ speakers… /ponder

Spurnshadow.3678:

Sounds like this will be a waste for WvW. This is way too much micromanagement for a commander.

You shouldn’t be commanding if you can’t manage it.

The squad feature here closely resembles that of the one in Archeage (which was one of the only redeeming qualities of that game for me, personally). A 50 man squad was divided up into 10 subgroups of 5 players each and any boons prioritized the subgroup first. A dev above has already confirmed it will work the same way. For guilds that currently have to try to manage 4 or 5 separate parties, this cleans it up. No longer can people hide that they are sneaking the wrong comp into a party or maybe there’s a stray guardian without a melee group that needs to get moved into one. I’ll have to see it this weekend to find out exactly how it will work, but personally I think this is much better than the party system we have currently. Looking forward to trying this out.

Im curious if being in a squad will nix the option to see other commander tags on the map.

Many times I coordinate between multiple commanders who are pinned ont he same maps, and I’d like to see all of them if I choose to, not be only able to see the commander’s tag of the squad I am in.

This is a really bad idea.
Might be working for Raids but in WvW you can’t rearrange your Subsquads every 5 minutes. It’s to much of a micromanagement or the commander.
Everytime a person joins or leaves the squad the commander has to look at his subsquads and change it so that the boonshare gets to the right people.

Please look into it and change it so that the original party stays with his prioritized shares.

morrolan.9608:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Sounds like this will be a waste for WvW. This is way too much micromanagement for a commander.

You shouldn’t be commanding if you can’t manage it.

Which would be exactly the type of elitist behaviour some of us fear squads could cause.
Technically you are also saying that all current commanders arent fit to command. No one is managing squads it at the moment. How nice.

Dawdler.8521:

Which would be exactly the type of elitist behaviour some of us fear squads could cause.
Technically you are also saying that all current commanders arent fit to command. No one is managing squads it at the moment. How nice.

Commanders were leading for 3 years now without the new squad ui and are doing fine, but hey you guys are making a big fuss about an optinal feature.

If you’re not capable of managing groups inbetween than don’t use it.

In the end if you can’t see the boons and condis of your teammates in your subsquad/group it’s worthless.

As long as the commander can set it to let the sub units set their own members this will only be helpful.

Mishi.7058:

Im curious if being in a squad will nix the option to see other commander tags on the map.

Many times I coordinate between multiple commanders who are pinned ont he same maps, and I’d like to see all of them if I choose to, not be only able to see the commander’s tag of the squad I am in.

Apparently we will be able to see other tags

Dawdler.8521:

morrolan.9608:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Sounds like this will be a waste for WvW. This is way too much micromanagement for a commander.

You shouldn’t be commanding if you can’t manage it.

Which would be exactly the type of elitist behaviour some of us fear squads could cause.
Technically you are also saying that all current commanders arent fit to command. No one is managing squads it at the moment. How nice.

Nope thats a strawman and its not elitist given its hardly going to be an onerous task and as others have noted it will be optional

This UI takes WvW 1 step closer to the strategy game it actually is for commanders. I actually do agree that if you can’t manage the commander UI you shouldn’t command. This is because you throw away a wealth of strategies that come with it. With the UI you get to
- Setup group comps the way you want them quickly. No more fussing around for 15 minutes at the start of your raid to get your players in the groups they need to be in.
- Designate groups to tasks (Got 5 rangers? stick em on a sniper team or a scout team)
- Instantly see the supply you’re carrying instead of having to guess.
- Use squad order markers
- Get up to the minute status of your squad. This one is huge. It lets you know how much pressure your squad is taking so you know when to call for a heal burst and know when you can push and pull back.

If only the game had in-game voice comms connected to squads (or in general) it would be heaven for commanders.

That UI doesn’t seem to difficult to figure out either. We’ll see this weekend (as I dust off my commander tags) how hard it is to use.

Mishi.7058:

Im curious if being in a squad will nix the option to see other commander tags on the map.

Many times I coordinate between multiple commanders who are pinned ont he same maps, and I’d like to see all of them if I choose to, not be only able to see the commander’s tag of the squad I am in.

This is changed on live already. Now when you are in squad you see all the tags on the map, your squad commander’s tag is now highlighted on the minimap so it is obvious who you are following. It’s a very nice upgrade.

morrolan.9608:

Dawdler.8521:

morrolan.9608:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Sounds like this will be a waste for WvW. This is way too much micromanagement for a commander.

You shouldn’t be commanding if you can’t manage it.

Which would be exactly the type of elitist behaviour some of us fear squads could cause.
Technically you are also saying that all current commanders arent fit to command. No one is managing squads it at the moment. How nice.

Nope thats a strawman and its not elitist given its hardly going to be an onerous task and as others have noted it will be optional

Nope, that was exactly the comment he responded to and I quoted.

We see the same thing now – get the kitten on TS or get out you commander noob. Squads is another tier on top of that. Do all people think commanders need to be on TS? Hell no. But many people do, even if its optional (and not even part of the original game for that matter). You’re not seeing that at all on your server?

Maybe it will be a good change, I dont know. Personally I dont like changes that looks like its going to make a simple and effective thing into a tactical excel spreadsheet. But maybe that’s just me.

I really don’t understand why I can’t be my own party and in a squad. I don’t want to rely on a commander to decide that. Taking away options is not something I can really agree with.

I don’t know, personally. Sometimes I just like to chat with just party members.

Dawdler.8521:

Nope, that was exactly the comment he responded to and I quoted.

We see the same thing now – get the kitten on TS or get out you commander noob. Squads is another tier on top of that. Do all people think commanders need to be on TS? Hell no. But many people do, even if its optional (and not even part of the original game for that matter). You’re not seeing that at all on your server?

Maybe it will be a good change, I dont know. Personally I dont like changes that looks like its going to make a simple and effective thing into a tactical excel spreadsheet. But maybe that’s just me.

If you aren’t on TS as a militia or commander you are simply going to be far less effective and have a greater chance to be killed than if you are on TS. TS is not an absolute requirement to play wvw, nor are proper builds, nor is any experience required. The amount that any particular person invests in these things is dependant on their personal desires and goals from the game…

The current system is simple. It’s not effective though. Currently:
- You have to guess at how much supply you have. Do you have enough for rams at stonemist? The extra ram can be the difference between a capture and a wipe.
- You don’t know your zerg size or composition. Now you can know it. This will help you determine if you can win a fight or not.
- You don’t currently know how your zerg is holding up in a fight, instead you end up wondering why everyone’s dead.
- You can’t setup parties for pugs so they miss out boons.
- You can’t issue retreat orders because noone pays attention to the chat screen while fighting.

We’re getting a far more effective system for managing your zerg/squad and sacrificing a bit of the pure simplicity for it. This system will let a commander focus on map strategy and fighting rather than unknowns of supply and zerg capability. Now the commander can know that he can take a tower or two. He can know whether his zerg can fight an enemy zerg. The fights, plays and movements become more calculated than before.

I’m feeling like it will mirror what healbot used to look like in world of warcraft. It will not be so horrible once we get to use it. For raids even it will be essential to clearing some of the content.

If you’ve never tried to calculate moves while commanding and just collected bodies and ran with it i guess you can ignore the UI. Otherwise it will be an valuable tool for your conquests.

ArchonWing.9480:

I really don’t understand why I can’t be my own party and in a squad. I don’t want to rely on a commander to decide that. Taking away options is not something I can really agree with.

I don’t know, personally. Sometimes I just like to chat with just party members.

I think this falls under the category of, you can’t have everything… personally, I think the tradeoff greatly favors the coming squad system over the previous system.

lioka qiao.8734:

The current system is simple. It’s not effective though. Currently:
- You have to guess at how much supply you have. Do you have enough for rams at stonemist? The extra ram can be the difference between a capture and a wipe.
- You don’t know your zerg size or composition. Now you can know it. This will help you determine if you can win a fight or not.
- You don’t currently know how your zerg is holding up in a fight, instead you end up wondering why everyone’s dead.
- You can’t setup parties for pugs so they miss out boons.
- You can’t issue retreat orders because noone pays attention to the chat screen while fighting.

QFT

Add in the time asking and waiting for players to stack into little groups based on their class so that well-composed parties can be formed.

Sometimes I feel like the people commenting here saying that this Squad UI will increase micromanagement are trolling.

I see why people want to party with friends for socializing, but then maybe squad joining is not for you….

Otherwise….
How much time is spent grouping in chat only to have party members leave 10-15 minutes later anyway? Having the flexibility for the commander to adjust as people join/leave seems like a nice QOL change to me.
As others have said, supply info without stacking your group and typing the command seems QOL to me.
Seeing your raid comp and numbers as people leave/join seems QOL to me.

I do have questions
Can I see my own subgroup as a party (not commander POV)
Can commander pass off task of grouping to another commander in the same squad?
Can there even be multiple commanders in a squad with tag visible or hidden?

In the end, if it is too cumbersome to someone’s taste, just don’t use it. I think others will embrace it…

To all of you saying that if one can not handle the squad management that this new system will entail, then we shouldn’t command: I say you don’t command much yourselves.

Sure, this will be easy to set things up at the beginning of a raid, however, people are constantly coming and going throughout the night. We’re picking up pugs, loosing pugs. Guildies come and go. This means the commander is going to have to constantly be checking the squad ui and manage parties. We have enough to do already. We are co-ordinating in TS with other commanders, we’re leading battles, some of which, may last a very long time, such as a keep defense. If we’re being 2v1ed for whatever reason, a commander is constantly moving, constantly checking the map, constantly trying to win the battle. We’re making plans ahead of time as far as what the next objective is or the one after that. We’re dropping siege, we’re scanning the horizion while moving from point A to B to be sure we aren’t being anbushed. We just don’t have the time to constantly manage squads.

Normally, people following can just add people in ts or say chat. People aren’t dumb, and most of us understand proper party comp and individuals are able to take care of that themselves. If not, the experienced people will take care of things and kick a longbow ranger trying to get into a front line party. I don’t want to open the UI every 5 minutes and reorganize people. I don’t want to have people constantly bothering me to be grouped up with X or Y in TS or whispers. Unless I can have another person manage those things for me, this new UI will not be used.

It also seems to me that this was created more out of necessity for raids, rather than WvW, and it was expanded to accomodate the WvW community.

The only thing that I am concerned with is if they are going to make the squad chat color the same ugly disgusting color it is right now for squad chat.

Spurnshadow.3678:

To all of you saying that if one can not handle the squad management that this new system will entail, then we shouldn’t command: I say you don’t command much yourselves.
(extra comentary)
It also seems to me that this was created more out of necessity for raids, rather than WvW, and it was expanded to accomodate the WvW community.

Well, based on my WvW experience you are in the minority as far as how commanders operate. But no worries, you can simply tell the people who follow your tag to party up and don’t let them join your squad. There, see everyone can have it however they want. We get a far superior squad structure, you get to continue to use the old party structure. Everyone wins!

Tspatula.9086:

Spurnshadow.3678:

To all of you saying that if one can not handle the squad management that this new system will entail, then we shouldn’t command: I say you don’t command much yourselves.
(extra comentary)
It also seems to me that this was created more out of necessity for raids, rather than WvW, and it was expanded to accomodate the WvW community.

Well, based on my WvW experience you are in the minority as far as how commanders operate. But no worries, you can simply tell the people who follow your tag to party up and don’t let them join your squad. There, see everyone can have it however they want. We get a far superior squad structure, you get to continue to use the old party structure. Everyone wins!

Whats the point, why not have the ability to remain in parties as well ? How does this hurt anything ? I personally would rather have the experienced players that know what their doing form their own parties and save me the headache.

Tspatula.9086:

Well, based on my WvW experience you are in the minority as far as how commanders operate. But no worries, you can simply tell the people who follow your tag to party up and don’t let them join your squad. There, see everyone can have it however they want. We get a far superior squad structure, you get to continue to use the old party structure. Everyone wins!

+1, I don’t think people realize they can simply not use the squad feature, and run raids just like they do now…allow people to form up groups on their own and tag along with your pin. So much fuss about a feature people can choose not to use if they prefer how things work right now. I know a lot of guilds in WvW that’ll love this feature.

There is something for everybody. Don’t like how it looks or functions? Don’t use it, nothing changes for you.

ArchonWing.9480:

I really don’t understand why I can’t be my own party and in a squad. I don’t want to rely on a commander to decide that. Taking away options is not something I can really agree with.

I don’t know, personally. Sometimes I just like to chat with just party members.

A squad is essentially a larger group, unless they make it so that you can be in more than 1 group (and no mmo that I’ve played has allowed this) it won’t happen and the new squad is by far the most preferable solution for the large scale WvW combat.

The answer is simply stay in your own group and don’t join the squad.

Spurnshadow.3678:

To all of you saying that if one can not handle the squad management that this new system will entail, then we shouldn’t command: I say you don’t command much yourselves.

Sure, this will be easy to set things up at the beginning of a raid, however, people are constantly coming and going throughout the night. We’re picking up pugs, loosing pugs. Guildies come and go. This means the commander is going to have to constantly be checking the squad ui and manage parties.

The commanders in my guild do this anyway. However it would be good to allow some squad members to have admin type rights to perform some squad management duties.

Spurnshadow.3678:

It also seems to me that this was created more out of necessity for raids, rather than WvW, and it was expanded to accomodate the WvW community.

It has been one of the most requested changes for WvW since launch.

morrolan.9608:

Spurnshadow.3678:

It also seems to me that this was created more out of necessity for raids, rather than WvW, and it was expanded to accomodate the WvW community.

It has been one of the most requested changes for WvW since launch.

I understand that, but I think it was created out of necessity for raids rather than doing something that the WvW community has been wanting forever. Just theorizing.