Puz – TDA
whole team beat by single thief
This argument has been fought ad nauseam. I honestly don’t think there will ever be a clear outcome.
Commander X Swagalicious X
Commander Twerknificient
Joey Bladow
Commander Twerknificient
Joey Bladow
….
Not to mention how quickly in sPvP when you get in trouble, youre able to let go of that fight to add into another fight instead of being downed like you should have been if you were outplayed. If you were not so enabled to run away, you would be points scored by the better fighter, not get away and turn that into points scored for your team.
Which is entirely dependant on the role the thief has in sPvP. Even if you could change this, you would also have to change the effect stealth has on point capturing / holding. Since our entire mechanic that lets us reset a fight and get away with it is also the reason why we don’t have any other role than kill and be mobile.
Can we save the sPvP debate for the sPvP subforum and out of the WvW discussion please. It simply serves to derail the discussion.
I have to say, I keep hearing that the thief class will be unplayable if there is significant counter to stealth or any thing it does for that matter.
I play a mediguard.
Were squishy as can be. I run at best 2.6K AC and Ive even reduced my health back down to at best 15K.
Slow as molasses. If we take speed from traveler runes we give up a ton of power that we get from other runes.
Our skills are probably the most telegraphed in game. You can see agies.
Our teleports are not half as able as thieves.
We have no stealth at all.
We actually have cooldowns on our weapons and we are affected by chill and interrupts.
Two protection’s in any given fight.
One invul for a few seconds that we cant do anything else but run through stuff with.
We dont have half the CC’s available to thieves.
We cant do half the damage in a single hit that thieves are capable of.
Have no where close to the evasion skills thieves have.
Our best defense are blocks and blinds and well this is the number of counters to our defenses.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable
From every single class.
Yet, I still find a way to be significant in this game, kill more than get killed, and play the heck out of it.
I keep hearing how if one of these things are changed on a thief it will be unplayable, yet we manage to play without half of it every single day.
I don’t see whats the problem. Medi guards should be able to kill thieves easily without even trying (only if they play power) because guards can do damage output with smite condition along with greatsword and air/fire sigil procs, easily taking out over 50% of a thiefs hp with one burst (applies to non dire thieves).
And yes, based on the good guardian’s I know, and from what I’ve summed up, Guardians are the strongest in 1 v 1 when it comes to power vs power. You just need to time your blocks and kite depending on what you vs and then apply pressure to them with high dps. You should go to Tier 1 servers and learn how to run away because the guardians I know can outrun thieves.
SPVP and WvW roaming is entire different story. OS arena dueling and roaming is entire different story too.
There’s actually ZERO chance a mediation guardian can catch a dire perplex D/P + P/D thief in open field fight. There’s also 0 chance for mediation guardian to burst dire perplex thief from 100% to 0% if that thief is half competent in 1 on 1. He can simply lure your burst and defensive skills out, then constantly go into stealth(a competent thief will be able to maintain permanent stealth through JUST D/P, no extra skills needed) and slowly chip your hp down with condition. After your CDs all used up (Shelter and Renew Focus mainly), you’re basically a dead guardian to the perplex thief. He doesn’t need to fight you up front, and he’s super durable, and can reset the fight any time he wishes. Run away? Even a Warrior can’t do it, how can a slow Guardian able to run away from a D/P thief? Only another thief can run away from a competent thief.
PS: I know there’re not many competent thieves overall, so just because you killed some trash thieves doesn’t mean thief is balanced in WvW roaming. Burst thief is somewhat balanced, but dire perplex thief + condition duration food + perma stealth + insane mobility + high hp toughness is just too much.
(edited by Toxsa.2701)
Did you had uplevels on your team OP?
Youre better off without them as any good powerbased thief will use them as rally bots.
Nothing like a Thief QQ thread
For those who mistook my point in explaining how a medi guard manages to survive and actually be considered one of the best 1v1 toons despite not having any of the advantages a thief has, I wasnt complaining about medi guard. I play it everyday.
I dont play necros, because well I think they are too weak and need some better 1v1 skills.
I was just pointing out that without any thief skills and a whole slew of counters to our best defenses, were still able to be considered one of the best 1 v1 classes.
Yet somehow at the mention of a possible counter to a thief’s defenses “it will make the thief unplayable..”
Nothing like a Thief QQ thread
Yes they have become rather common havent they? Interesting that something that common is just considered crying vs hey maybe with this many complaints commonly occurring, there might be an actual problem.
(edited by nightblood.7910)
I don’t see whats the problem. Medi guards should be able to kill thieves easily without even trying (only if they play power) because guards can do damage output with smite condition along with greatsword and air/fire sigil procs, easily taking out over 50% of a thiefs hp with one burst (applies to non dire thieves).
As for the complaint of the lack of protection and invul… that’s just you being bad. I know some guardian from Jade Quarry who can fight conditions builds with power medi zerker build with ease. First you need to know what spec the thief is running, thats how you decide what method of fighting you’ll use. If the thief is running sword dagger, you need to use your blocks carefully and predict when is he going to daze you. It’s how thieves fight other thieves after all, experience to evade their hits and do burst damage. Same idea when you vs other classes, you need to play different tactics depending on their build and spec.
Of course, the good thieves would take a while to kill, if not be unable to kill them at all (run away). However, thats the thief’s mechanic though, they are build advantageously for 1 v 1, where experience matters the most. I’m pretty sure you should know that all bad thiefs will die easily to everything else, while a good thief can manage 1 v 1 easily. If you can’t win with medi guard (a hard counter to thief) then it’s an issue of your experience in playing a thief. If a thief is playing d/d, and he stealths with full hp, you can assume hes going to try to backstab you instantly, if he’s not in good shape with his health bar, he’ll likely wait for 3 seconds then backstab you to regen hp.
And yes, based on the good guardian’s I know, and from what I’ve summed up, Guardians are the strongest in 1 v 1 when it comes to power vs power. You just need to time your blocks and kite depending on what you vs and then apply pressure to them with high dps. You should go to Tier 1 servers and learn how to run away because the guardians I know can outrun thieves.
Yeah Ive stated a million times, Im not discussing the 1v1 between a thief and a guardian. Yeah its rare I have a problem with a 1v1 against a power thief, unless Im ambushed by two of which I never saw coming and at that point am in perm immob, dazed and obliterated fairly quickly.
Of which having an ability to reveal that stealth would have changed those fights to likely me still losing, but not without a good fight.
But once again power thief vs medi guard is a very isolated conversation to a bigger picture where stealth is abused heavily in the thief class.
There are alot of condi classes out there, engineers I dont get enough fight time with them, but regardless, I keep seeing what I could have done better in that fight.
P/D there is no answer other than the capability of revealing stealth.
Or condi’s get pushed down to the point that they cant overtake power.
Or complete armor sets get changed drastically that would mess up so much more than just a P/D thief.
What Im saying is, stealth counters will not make power thieves unplayable and would fix the obviously broken P/D thief and not affect the rest of the condi classes in game.
Yeah if you isolate this to power thief vs medi guard, there is no problem other than two power thieves are ridiculously overpowered. But thats a hard argument to sell and I dont bother with it.
While many power classes argue that condi uses a different mechanic that lacks skill, I dont partake in that myself and consider them valid. Therefore some drastic changes to condi will affect far more than a p/d thief.
It affects engi’s mesmers, rangers, warriors and so on. So I dont argue the condi problem, I argue the obvious difference between those condi classes and theif condi classes, stealth, no cd, no cd penalties, all of which make the p/d build so overpowered.
And while a nerf to plex, dire or anything that builds a condi class will eat all other condi classes, a counter (not a nerf) to stealth will not.
I mean for real come on, stealth cant deal with out a counter to it. Really?
(edited by nightblood.7910)
This argument has been fought ad nauseam. I honestly don’t think there will ever be a clear outcome.
I agree and finally i believe this Arena ne do not care about make thief class challenge and fun. It is ok because Square Enix next expansion will have Ninja Profession that will be challenge and fun. Player have choice to chose a game company who love challenge and fun for their game include profession and one who hate challenge and fun for their game and include their profession.
I feel bad for player who believe for 3 years that Arena net will change to love challenge and fun for their game include their profession. I would never waste 3 years to pretend. I believe it is not their fault but serious: after 6month-1year: should it be very obvious?
Last: when these player here the word “nerf” they believe something serious will change or something serious will happen but they find out: it never did. It is all mind-control: make you believe something serious change. In my investigation; thief “nerf” was never real nerf but delusional nerf. Delusion make us believe something serious happen, and it did not.
Thief never receive serious nerf: so please understand and Stop believe they receice real nerf. Same thing they did 3 years ago: they do it same 3 years after. I know someone will say that thief did 18k-infinite damage 3 years ago but i will ask them in return, “can they still instant kill like 3 years ago”? than they will either agree or refuse to answer becuase it is true,
I understand Guild Wars 2 is all about Instant Everything and Have Everything. Also i know i have choice to chose a game company who care about their player problem who ask for challenge and fun, yes I know. So why i write? I write because maybe Arena net can change because i believe in change. But i will not waste my hope for change for long time with delusion that change will come. The more time i would use for wvw and s-pvp, i instead read the forum to hope Arena net will show sign that they care for thier player concern who want challenge and fun. So far: no sign.. of word or even action. So i will continue to read for a sign but will also will not waste my time to read and i will not waste my time for hope there will be a sign.
That is why Word is all delusion until Action happen. That is why thief delusional nerf will never be take serious until Arena net take Action again thief nerf: even much better: re-design thief class because thief is design with no-challenge and no-fun.
That is all.
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true”
" Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do "
" Solutions To A Problem Can Only Be Found, When You Want To Get Rid Of It "
Ankur
Ankur
(edited by DarkSyze.8627)
[/quote]
Yeah Ive stated a million times, Im not discussing the 1v1 between a thief and a guardian. Yeah its rare I have a problem with a 1v1 against a power thief, unless Im ambushed by two of which I never saw coming and at that point am in perm immob, dazed and obliterated fairly quickly.
Of which having an ability to reveal that stealth would have changed those fights to likely me still losing, but not without a good fight.
But once again power thief vs medi guard is a very isolated conversation to a bigger picture where stealth is abused heavily in the thief class.
There are alot of condi classes out there, engineers I dont get enough fight time with them, but regardless, I keep seeing what I could have done better in that fight.
P/D there is no answer other than the capability of revealing stealth.
Or condi’s get pushed down to the point that they cant overtake power.
Or complete armor sets get changed drastically that would mess up so much more than just a P/D thief.
What Im saying is, stealth counters will not make power thieves unplayable and would fix the obviously broken P/D thief and not affect the rest of the condi classes in game.
Yeah if you isolate this to power thief vs medi guard, there is no problem other than two power thieves are ridiculously overpowered. But thats a hard argument to sell and I dont bother with it.
While many power classes argue that condi uses a different mechanic that lacks skill, I dont partake in that myself and consider them valid. Therefore some drastic changes to condi will affect far more than a p/d thief.
It affects engi’s mesmers, rangers, warriors and so on. So I dont argue the condi problem, I argue the obvious difference between those condi classes and theif condi classes, stealth, no cd, no cd penalties, all of which make the p/d build so overpowered.
And while a nerf to plex, dire or anything that builds a condi class will eat all other condi classes, a counter (not a nerf) to stealth will not.
I mean for real come on, stealth cant deal with out a counter to it. Really?
[/quote]
I don’t really see a problem, if a thief wants to stealth all day instead of engaging you. Then you pretty much win and he has no way of defeating multiple people. I am just convinced you just want to kill something that isn’t even fighting back. As for P/D thief, you’re clearly just bad. P/D thiefs have no easy way of stealthing other than coming up close and personal, and they can kite you with P/D #3 skill, which is easily dodged if you have experienced against a thief. Hard pressure on a p/d thief will force him to use his utility skills.
From how I see it, you just want to be able to kill thieves without them running away? Well tough luck, if you can’t lay a stealth removal trap on them, it is situational. I believe running away and stealthing is a main core class of a thief, just as blocks are how guardians get by when fighting people. You say two thieves are ridiciously overpowered, yet two medi guardians, or 2 celes engi’s and two shatter mesmer’s arent powerful against one class. If you’re expecting to be able to easily beat two stealth classes in 2 v 1, then you’re obviously going by it wrong. Even a good thief will have trouble killing people in 2 v 1 if they are any decent in their classes. And if you have a problem with conditions, run generosity sigils and condi removal sigils. You can’t based everything on one class just because there is one OP build.
Guardians can go 1800 distance with judge’s intervention which has 45 second cd (36 if traited) along with flashing blade with 10 second cooldown. In most fights, thieves will use shadowstep aka their 50 second 1200 range stunbreaker if you put enough pressure to them, unless they have an short bow, sword and dagger thieves won’t have significant range to chase you.
From how I see it, you want a chance to be able to kill two thieves in a 2 v 1? That will probably depend on the skill lvl of the thieves your fighting. If it’s a condi p/d thief, you’re suppose to have a difficult time. Power Medi guards are vulnerable to conditions, that’s how your build works. As for counters for stealth, As I’ve said it on top, you lay a stealth trap, which may or may not work, and bait the thieves to it. Most likely, the good ones will try to run away by covering distance to wait out their reveal debuff of 20 seconds, or the bad ones will try to put down a Shadow Refuge, which wouldn’t work.
If you want guardians to have a reveal debuff skill to use against stealth classes, anet will have to reduce the dps on power builds to compensate for that.
How many times do I have to say. Im not complaining about medi guards.
Once again, check the video I posted.
Youre obviously isolating this to me. Im not complaining about me on a medi guard. Im looking at the fact that P/D thieves are so overly powered outnumberd.
Secondly you continue to put words in my mouth. Who said I shoudl be able to 1v2 thieves and just beat them? I didnt say that. Youre kinda trying to figure out what Im saying vs see what Im saying.
Also all my tele’s require a target.
Highly conditional to the environment and with the amount of animals and NPC’s in sPvP it really isnt that good of an escape method but only attack with no way out.
Of which I dont really mind, I either kill or get killed its the risk of playing this class that I take. Thus the high risk high reward mentality.
As a matter of fact, my latest challenge Ive taken on is fitting a zerk guard in the front line of a raid. So much less than roaming or sPvP in the first place.
Yep I run around no stealth what so ever, no speed and carefully placing myself as close to the front line as possible without dying and dropping bombs on the enemy front line with this squishy little thing. Its fun.
Needs some work though. Those necro bombs are rutheless to a medi.
I jsut neither see it as right or fair that there is a class in this game that can even do what that video shows while others cannot.
Its the same as the old perma sins in gw1. I quit playing gw1 because of that build and did not even buy gw2 at first because of how Anet caters to that class. And Im considering taking my money and time to another game because of the same thing as then. It ruins games, it ruins the fun, except for those who play those cheap classes.
It just drives me up the wall that they even exist with those abilities.
I tell you what, I say guards should have stuns on block with no cd.
Now, you can see aegis, so just dont attack guards.
And if they put up their blocks and just leave them alone and let them go on their way.
I say why not? Obviously it shouldnt be a problem, you dont have to fight them and them getting away because well they just stunned the 10 man team with one skill long enough for them to adios out of dodge shouldnt be a problem for anyone.
I mean whats the big deal if guards stun on block?
(edited by nightblood.7910)
I mean whats the big deal if guards stun on block?
The answer to this question is pretty much the whole reason no one is taking you seriously.
You don’t even know your own class deep enough to understand the consequences in game balance of the suggestion you just gave while ranting about thiefs (which is a class you are supposedly NOT have a hard time to kill).
Btw, a medi guard problem isn’t P/D thiefs, their problems are condi builds.
A Condi Necro or a condi Engineer will kill faster than a P/D thief, any day. And you can see then 24h/7d.
Lastly, I don’t see this as a Thief hating topic. Its just another stealth hater topic.
If thiefs didn’t had stealth we would prolly be arguing about some PU mesmer that killed 4×1.
I don’t really see a problem, if a thief wants to stealth all day instead of engaging you. Then you pretty much win and he has no way of defeating multiple people. I am just convinced you just want to kill something that isn’t even fighting back. As for P/D thief, you’re clearly just bad. P/D thiefs have no easy way of stealthing other than coming up close and personal, and they can kite you with P/D #3 skill, which is easily dodged if you have experienced against a thief. Hard pressure on a p/d thief will force him to use his utility skills.
From how I see it, you just want to be able to kill thieves without them running away? Well tough luck, if you can’t lay a stealth removal trap on them, it is situational. I believe running away and stealthing is a main core class of a thief, just as blocks are how guardians get by when fighting people. You say two thieves are ridiciously overpowered, yet two medi guardians, or 2 celes engi’s and two shatter mesmer’s arent powerful against one class. If you’re expecting to be able to easily beat two stealth classes in 2 v 1, then you’re obviously going by it wrong. Even a good thief will have trouble killing people in 2 v 1 if they are any decent in their classes. And if you have a problem with conditions, run generosity sigils and condi removal sigils. You can’t based everything on one class just because there is one OP build.
Guardians can go 1800 distance with judge’s intervention which has 45 second cd (36 if traited) along with flashing blade with 10 second cooldown. In most fights, thieves will use shadowstep aka their 50 second 1200 range stunbreaker if you put enough pressure to them, unless they have an short bow, sword and dagger thieves won’t have significant range to chase you.
From how I see it, you want a chance to be able to kill two thieves in a 2 v 1? That will probably depend on the skill lvl of the thieves your fighting. If it’s a condi p/d thief, you’re suppose to have a difficult time. Power Medi guards are vulnerable to conditions, that’s how your build works. As for counters for stealth, As I’ve said it on top, you lay a stealth trap, which may or may not work, and bait the thieves to it. Most likely, the good ones will try to run away by covering distance to wait out their reveal debuff of 20 seconds, or the bad ones will try to put down a Shadow Refuge, which wouldn’t work.
If you want guardians to have a reveal debuff skill to use against stealth classes, anet will have to reduce the dps on power builds to compensate for that. [/quote]
Umm, are you from T1 server? Do you ever roam ALONE?
It is kinda surprised you never meet a competent P/D + D/P perplex thief.
There’s quite a strong one from TC or BG I believed, playing that cheese P/D + D/P and chase you all day while able to escape all encounters. (He’s using legendary pistols, so it’s easy to know who he is I guess.)
No easy access stealth? You kidding me? They just have to switch to D/P and permanent stealth achieved. They don’t need damage, all they need to do is take SA line a trickster line and get all the initiative and stealth related traits, while runes and condition duration food does all the work for them while they’re hiding.
Let me repeat, this is not dueling in OS or SPVP. I’m talking about WVW ROAMING.
When a thief gets away, it doesn’t mean you win, it means their health is full again while your skills are on CD now. They’ll come back in around 5 seconds and there’s no-way for you to escape. You didn’t win, you just postpone your lost.
(edited by Toxsa.2701)
I mean whats the big deal if guards stun on block?
The answer to this question is pretty much the whole reason no one is taking you seriously.
You don’t even know your own class deep enough to understand the consequences in game balance of the suggestion you just gave while ranting about thiefs (which is a class you are supposedly NOT have a hard time to kill).
Btw, a medi guard problem isn’t P/D thiefs, their problems are condi builds.
A Condi Necro or a condi Engineer will kill faster than a P/D thief, any day. And you can see then 24h/7d.Lastly, I don’t see this as a Thief hating topic. Its just another stealth hater topic.
If thiefs didn’t had stealth we would prolly be arguing about some PU mesmer that killed 4×1.
LOL thats hilariously funny,
Read it again and understand the context of what I was saying. Of course that many stuns on block would be OP thats the point I was making. It was sarcasm.
Of course that wouldnt work in this game, but now all of a sudden something OP that there are just as many option to not fight said guard, and just let them get away with no problems, its not duels and not OS and well that fighting as nothing to do with the game play. Hey why not. I mean hey staff eles, they need…… ohh wait lets just give them a weapon swap to switch from d/d to staff at will. I menan what could possibly go wrong there?
(edited by nightblood.7910)
I mean whats the big deal if guards stun on block?
The answer to this question is pretty much the whole reason no one is taking you seriously.
You don’t even know your own class deep enough to understand the consequences in game balance of the suggestion you just gave while ranting about thiefs (which is a class you are supposedly NOT have a hard time to kill).
Btw, a medi guard problem isn’t P/D thiefs, their problems are condi builds.
A Condi Necro or a condi Engineer will kill faster than a P/D thief, any day. And you can see then 24h/7d.Lastly, I don’t see this as a Thief hating topic. Its just another stealth hater topic.
If thiefs didn’t had stealth we would prolly be arguing about some PU mesmer that killed 4×1.LOL thats hilariously funny,
Read it again and understand the context of what I was saying. Of course that many stuns on block would be OP thats the point I was making. It was sarcasm.
I’m guessing that SoulSin guy does not come from T1 server. Many T1 thieves use P/D + D/P dire perplex spec nowadays during roaming, while he doesn’t even know what P/D is for…
Mesmer and Engineer can never disengage and survive as well as thief, so there’s always a chance you can kill them before your CD all burned up, and there’s also a chance for you to disengage from them unlike P/D+D/P thief. (For the case of PU mesmer, even though they’re hard to kill, it is one of the easiest classes you can disengage freely, they’re the one who needs to chase you LOL)
(edited by Toxsa.2701)