Guild Wars 2

There have been a lot of topics as of late discussing whether letting others win in the race is, or isn’t a good thing.

One side of the argument is that players should earn the achievement, and to do any less is considered everything from invalid, to cheating, to an exploit.

The counter argument is that as a community we should be working together for the fun of all players, and because the rewards for first are only minimally better, there is no reason not to allow others the chance to get first.

It should be said, that regardless of what side you agree with, no players should be harassed for thier choice. But, we will come back to this in a moment.

Equality

When people join competitive sports or activities, it is almost a given that they want to be paired up with others that are in the same skill range. This is obviously because we’ve realized that when teams or individuals are mismatched, it really ceases to be a competition.

In this race, we are all unevenly matched. Everyone has some factor that contributes to thier chances of winning. These factors can be one, or more of the following:

- Lag
- Computer Specs
- Internet Connection
- Gaming Experience
- Guild Wars 2 Experience
- Physical Disabilities
- Time Availablity
- Age
- Control Devices /Keyboard Setup

There may be a few more, but the point is that while we may want to believe we are racing against equal opponents, its much more likely that many factors beyond our control are determining the outcome of the races.

When you factor in the fact that achievements allow players gain better gear and/or points, it creates an issue where those at a disadvantage, are always at the mercy of those with less.

So, what can be done?

Well, unfortunately not a whole lot. Until ANet creates a system in which players are grouped accordingly, there will always be a problem. In addition, as long as achievements are required to gain something other than personal satisfaction, players will always find a way to manipulate the game in an attempt to level the playing field (or get through it as fast as possible).

If ANet wanted to solve these issues, there are a few things they could do.

1. Make achievements independent of additional rewards.

2. Create a proper match making system that factors in things like latency, wins/losses, average FPS, etc.

3. Allow players to create races with entry requirements (friends only, latency, etc).

Now, getting back to the harassment issue. Here is the reality. No one can force anyone to play the game how they want. Regardless of your stance on this issue, each individual has the right to make whatever choices they want, and should never be subject to harassment or name calling for doing so.

If you feel the players aren’t playing the game to your likening, then find another game. Ruining the game for others by demanding or pressuring them to play your way is not fair.

In the end, while it is technically a PvP game, its about as competitive as a potato sack race at a company picnic. The competition is so random that winning or losing really doesn’t mean anything. What matters is how much fun you have playing.

I agree with your post as a whole. When winning or losing do not depend solely on skill anymore, an achievement for winning hardly means anything.
I would like to address to my favourite part of your post, and your best suggestion IMO:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

3. Allow players to create races with enters requirements (friends only, latency, etc).

While I understand that this is a temporary mini game, we have been playing different PvP mini games chapter after chapter of the living story since Southsun. Uhh… Alright, a total of 3 PvP mini games. Not that much, but that’s not the point. The point is that if the living story will continue to introduce PvP mini games, being able to play them with my friends would be SO AWESOME! I mean, I made some friends playing with a bunch of random people, that’s true, but what about my guildies? We are together since I was a kid, we do everything together, I want to play the mini games with/against them!

If that wouldn’t be possible because “you guys would just trade wins so everybody would get the achievements and the titles”, please, people do that already, being friends or not. Also, two friends that have characters of every race can easily work together to get the “Omnomnivore” title already.

I mostly agree with what you said. Except for the part where you said achievements give players better gear, which is false. The rewards for ap are all cosmetic outside of the gold and account bonuses.

fellyn.5083:

I mostly agree with what you said. Except for the part where you said achievements give players better gear, which is false. The rewards for ap are all cosmetic outside of the gold and account bonuses.

He must be talking about “Sanctum Sprint Achievements -> Meta Achievement -> Personal Quartz Node -> Celestial Gear”. There are other achievements that a person can do to get it, but if the person can not complete the jumping puzzles to get to the kites and can not get the crystals for the same reasons why they can’t finish first in Sanctum Sprint (lag, latency, age, disabilities, etc) and for some reason they really want Celestial Gear, they will have problems to get it.

fellyn.5083:

I mostly agree with what you said. Except for the part where you said achievements give players better gear, which is false. The rewards for ap are all cosmetic outside of the gold and account bonuses.

As Gabby said below, achievements are not simply for personal satisfaction. Players are given the option to gain a certain number of achievements, which provide rewards, which lead to the ability to obtain better gear.

Of course this gear doesn’t really give any one player an advantage over another, but it does mean that if you’re unlucky enough to be stuck with some issue making your ability to gain achievements all that much harder, it can be very frustrating to know your chances are slim.

As long as achievements are tied to rewards, and players are not given the tools to level the playing field, these arguments will continue to happen.

Gabby.3205:

fellyn.5083:

I mostly agree with what you said. Except for the part where you said achievements give players better gear, which is false. The rewards for ap are all cosmetic outside of the gold and account bonuses.

He must be talking about “Sanctum Sprint Achievements -> Meta Achievement -> Personal Quartz Node -> Celestial Gear”. There are other achievements that a person can do to get it, but if the person can not complete the jumping puzzles to get to the kites and can not get the crystals for the same reasons why they can’t finish first in Sanctum Sprint (lag, latency, age, disabilities, etc) and for some reason they really want Celestial Gear, they will have problems to get it.

If fixing races is okay I don’t see why there would be a problem with getting portaled to the kites. However even without that the Quartz Crystals can be bought. What the prices will be after the event is anybody’s guess. You can probably get enough for a full set for a bit over 4g in a few more days. Pretty cheap for a t6.

It also seems possible to get the meta without doing any sanctum sprint or the sky crystal collection.

Gabby.3205:

If that wouldn’t be possible because “you guys would just trade wins so everybody would get the achievements and the titles”, please, people do that already, being friends or not. Also, two friends that have characters of every race can easily work together to get the “Omnomnivore” title already..

This argument is only valid if the achievements are tied to rewards, directly, or indirectly.

Many games suffer from this issue. In FPS games you see clans dominating the game and being rewarded for doing so. RTS games also have issues with friends manipulating leader boards.

In almost all these cases, it is because the rewards for doing so, encourage this type of behavior. If you’ve ever played a racing game like Mario Kart, the reward for winning was a friendly, “You came in X place!” and that was really it. It meant that racing against your friends was about the race, not the reward.

In the end, nothing will stop players from cheezing, the games/dungeons, so to deny friends and guilds playing together doesn’t make much sense. What makes sense is shifting the focus away from rewards, and onto the game.

ANet needs to focus on just making fun and exciting mini-games that allow anyone to create, or join a game that suits their level/requirements. Make the rewards for finishing equal (so there is a benefit to playing for all), and make achievements separate from anything else, and only there for personal satisfaction.

Khisanth.2948:

If fixing races is okay I don’t see why there would be a problem with getting portaled to the kites. However even without that the Quartz Crystals can be bought. What the prices will be after the event is anybody’s guess. You can probably get enough for a full set for a bit over 4g in a few more days. Pretty cheap for a t6.

It also seems possible to get the meta without doing any sanctum sprint or the sky crystal collection.

Nor do I.

If a player chooses to portal through a jumping puzzle, that is their choice. It is up to them if they feel comfortable bypassing potentially awesome content for an easy achievement.

The difference here is that Mesmers are not harassed if they choose not to help. It doesn’t effect anyone else, and using a portal is no different from one player to the next.

ANet is pretty good about not requiring players to get all the achievements to get the reward. The thing is, players want to play the content. Sitting in Lions Arch just buying stuff on the TP, isn’t exactly the most amazing way to spend an evening in game.

There is an argument that if you can’t get the achievements due to some reason, that you may have to accept the option to buy things. If a person with a disability can’t do jumping puzzles, it shouldn’t mean the JP should be nerfed for everyone else, it just means that person may need to find alternative ways of getting the reward.

That does bring me to a quick side note. Pixelpumpkin outlined an idea that doesn’t seem to be getting much support, but it solves almost all the issues with rewards. I’ll find the link, but the basic idea is that achievements are tiered, and you are rewarded more, the more you participate.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/3-Step-Solution-to-ALL-our-woes

So, if you play the drinking game, you qualify for the reward. If you grind it out for days, you get the initial reward, and additional ones.

Very good post. I agree with it wholeheartedly.

I would like to highlight my favourite part:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

In the end, while it is technically a PvP game, its about as competitive as a potato sack race at a company picnic. The competition is so random that winning or losing really doesn’t mean anything. What matters is how much fun you have playing.

I will try to present my point of view in a few words…
This is the third time I am forced to PvP (Southsun – “Crab Toss”, Dragon Bash – “Dragon Ball”)… and I hate PvP – I get nervous playing it… and the game is supposed to be fun not frustrating. Am I right? Someone will definitely tell that “Sanctum Sprinter” is optional… but not for people who collect achivements like me. Furthermore – this achievement is not permanent which further deepens my frustration. I have completely no problem with permanent PvP achivements because I can hop in whenever I feel such need and take care of them. “Sanctum Sprinter” is 85% luck based (only slightly less luck based than “Crabtacular!” – it was the worst achivement in the history of Guild Wars 2…) and do not tell me it is not – Sanctum Sprint is full of bugs and random fails (“Lightning Pull” should be called “I fail 50% of time” or “You will fall to death”). Check out my screens – I ended up in mid air after “Lightning Pull” and was able to run around like this… I wonder what would happen if I looked down – I would fall? Like in cartoons?

Thaia.5146:

I will try to present my point of view in a few words…
This is the third time I am forced to PvP (Southsun – “Crab Toss”, Dragon Bash – “Dragon Ball”)… and I hate PvP – I get nervous playing it… and the game is supposed to be fun not frustrating. Am I right? Someone will definitely tell that “Sanctum Sprinter” is optional… but not for people who collect achivements like me. Furthermore – this achievement is not permanent which further deepens my frustration. I have completely no problem with permanent PvP achivements becouse I can hop in whenever I feel such need and take care of them. “Sanctum Sprinter” is 85% luck based (only slightly less luck based than “Crabtacular!” – it was the worst achivement in the history of Guild Wars 2…) and do not tell me it is not – Sanctum Sprint is full of bugs and random fails (“Lightning Pull” should be called “I fail 50% of time” or “You will fall to death”). Check out my screens – I ended up in mid air after “Lightning Pull” and was able to run around like this… I wonder what would happen if I looked down – I would fall? Like in cartoons?

I agree with everything you said, except that this is PvP. The PvP is incidental. If it were a straight line and you were told to kill each other to reach the end that would be fine. As it is though it’s not PvP, it’s PvE(environment with the jumps, water falls etc) that has incidental pvp while trying to reach the end.

Everything else you are spot on about.

Gabby.3205:

When winning or losing do not depend solely on skill anymore, an achievement for winning hardly means anything.

I’m not familiar with any achievement in this game that means anything?

There is a very easy way to fix all this fuss about this race.

Introduce time trials and leaderboards based solely on time. For example, you would get the title if you reach the finish in 3 minutes. But that’s not the end, you could furthermore improve your records and it would register in a global or server based leaderboard for all to see. That is an achievement. And everyone would have a reason to cross the final line.

Fusionfall, a game for kids, did that perfectly, with daily/weekly/monthly and all time rankings for each jumping puzzle. Odd that a ‘mature’ game like GW2 seems to fail at this.

If they had made it so that anyone actually finishing the race got the title this would be mute. Because they made it about competition for first to get the title, they made it a grievers paradise. Although I finished the race many many times it took one nice fellow to stand at the finish line for me to finally get the title.

To those that would say the title would mean nothing, I say hogwash, you participated and you had fun. After-all isn’t that what these games are intended to achieve? Btw I still run it for the loot and the fun, but now that the yoke of the title has been lifted I actually enjoy it much more.

Good points, Crazylegs. I personally do frown on people who outright ask for first place – it’s crass, and not to mention that forging any such agreement amongst a group as you might find in an SS race will be difficult in the first place, to say nothing of the whining and hissy fits that inevitably follow when someone breaks the trust. That said, having gotten my 1st place achievement wrapped up, if I’m leading the race I will stop short of the finish line, grabbing 4th once 3 people go through. Some people are only in it right now to get their achievements and move on – if the races continue once the event is over, then I’ll certainly give it my all and give no quarter.

I also really agree that this aspect of the game needs to be expanded further – I would really like to see racing become a permanent fixture in the game. More courses, and the ability to form racing teams would be at the top of my list for features to add.

Thaia.5146:

I will try to present my point of view in a few words…
This is the third time I am forced to PvP (Southsun – “Crab Toss”, Dragon Bash – “Dragon Ball”)… and I hate PvP – I get nervous playing it… and the game is supposed to be fun not frustrating. Am I right? Someone will definitely tell that “Sanctum Sprinter” is optional… but not for people who collect achivements like me. Furthermore – this achievement is not permanent which further deepens my frustration. I have completely no problem with permanent PvP achivements because I can hop in whenever I feel such need and take care of them. “Sanctum Sprinter” is 85% luck based (only slightly less luck based than “Crabtacular!” – it was the worst achivement in the history of Guild Wars 2…) and do not tell me it is not – Sanctum Sprint is full of bugs and random fails (“Lightning Pull” should be called “I fail 50% of time” or “You will fall to death”). Check out my screens – I ended up in mid air after “Lightning Pull” and was able to run around like this… I wonder what would happen if I looked down – I would fall? Like in cartoons?

I just wanna point out, that choosing to try and collect all the achievement points is your own personal decision. Nobodys saying you need to get all the achievements or anything..That’s your choice. And I honestly don’t understand why some people make this a goal at all. I mean, it would be an okay goal except then people get so frustrated when there is an achievement that they have problems getting. I feel like they get so worked up about NEEDING every single achievement, that the game loses some of its enjoyment. But whatever, it’s your choice.

Anyways..Not everybody has these problems of the skills not working (I think out of all the times I’ve done sanctum sprint, I’ve only had the lightning skill act up on me once). So I also feel that it’s not really fair to say that the game is bad or depends on luck, when a lot of players actually do not share these problems. Of course, some players are experiencing these kind of problems and I can’t tell you why it’s so buggy and weird for some people, and perfectly fine for others. But I feel that we have to keep that in mind and not act like the mini-game is completely buggy and just not working. Because it IS working for a lot of people, and somewhere along the line between the game and your computer, it is having problems for other people.

Anyways, my best advice..Although you’re probably not going to like it, would be to maybe drop the 100% achievements goal. I mean honestly, there is going to be a point in this game, whether it’s with Sanctum Sprint or when you miss a living story because you’re away for 2 weeks or whatever..but there IS going to be a point where you miss an achievement. Some achievement you can never get back. And then what? After that you can NEVER have all the achievement points. So I mean, try and collect as many as you can..but I’d suggest being a little more relaxed about it and realizing that maybe every once in a while you just have to let some things go.

If everyone can achieve everything, nobody really achieves anything.

Genavelle.9516:

— snip —

So you’re telling people ‘well you’re gonna miss something eventually, so why bother’? That sounds a little … rude.

Just because you can’t understand why people play the way they do, it doesn’t mean you should look down on it or try to devalue it.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Genavelle.9516:

— snip —

So you’re telling people ‘well you’re gonna miss something eventually, so why bother’? That sounds a little … rude.

Just because you can’t understand why people play the way they do, it doesn’t mean you should look down on it or try to devalue it.

No, I’m just saying to be realistic. I never said to “not bother”, I was just suggesting if you reach a point where something out of your control is prohibiting you somehow from getting an achievement, then maybe you should realize that it’s just not going to happen. Y’know instead of frustrating yourself by laps and laps of Sanctum Sprint when you KNOW the skills are going to bug out on you because you have bad latency or lag or whatever..Why not take a break and go work on other achievements or do something you enjoy?

I’m not saying you shouldn’t try, just if you try and try and try and it doesn’t work..Not because you need more practice, but because of factors outside of your control (which is of course what everyone’s saying is why they can’t win Sanctum Sprint), then consider giving it a rest because you can’t get all the achievement points forever anyways.

And to be honest, if people MUST insist on torturing themselves by doing optional activities in the game that they HATE or have tons of problems with (like bugs, lag, etc). Then atleast have the decency to recognize that this was YOUR choice, and stop complaining about it all over map chat and the forums. You have a right to complain when something legitimately is broken, when 100% of the population is unhappy, when you have been somehow wronged by Anet. When you choose to partake in optional activities despite the fact that you hate doing them or have issues that only affect a portion of people (and therefore is not Anet’s fault), you really have no right to complain (as much as people are) about it.

Genavelle.9516:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Genavelle.9516:

— snip —

So you’re telling people ‘well you’re gonna miss something eventually, so why bother’? That sounds a little … rude.

Just because you can’t understand why people play the way they do, it doesn’t mean you should look down on it or try to devalue it.

No, I’m just saying to be realistic. I never said to “not bother”, I was just suggesting if you reach a point where something out of your control is prohibiting you somehow from getting an achievement, then maybe you should realize that it’s just not going to happen. Y’know instead of frustrating yourself by laps and laps of Sanctum Sprint when you KNOW the skills are going to bug out on you because you have bad latency or lag or whatever..Why not take a break and go work on other achievements or do something you enjoy?

I’m not saying you shouldn’t try, just if you try and try and try and it doesn’t work..Not because you need more practice, but because of factors outside of your control (which is of course what everyone’s saying is why they can’t win Sanctum Sprint), then consider giving it a rest because you can’t get all the achievement points forever anyways.

And to be honest, if people MUST insist on torturing themselves by doing optional activities in the game that they HATE or have tons of problems with (like bugs, lag, etc). Then atleast have the decency to recognize that this was YOUR choice, and stop complaining about it all over map chat and the forums. You have a right to complain when something legitimately is broken, when 100% of the population is unhappy, when you have been somehow wronged by Anet. When you choose to partake in optional activities despite the fact that you hate doing them or have issues that only affect a portion of people (and therefore is not Anet’s fault), you really have no right to complain (as much as people are) about it.

Translation: keep quiet as it doesn’t affect me and I don’t want to read all those complaints.

Ignoring problems does not make them go away or get fixed in the long run.

Conner.4702:

Translation: keep quiet as it doesn’t affect me and I don’t want to read all those complaints.

Ignoring problems does not make them go away or get fixed in the long run.

Without healthy dialogue we cannot learn and ANet cannot get good feedback from the community.

In regards to APs; You can achieve 3 achievements without even topping 3rd place. You can also achieve 16 without doing the OS and Fractals Kite. So I don’t think the 2 Achievement tiers for Sanctum Sprint are relevant unless you want them for personal glory or the points.

As far as the race goes, I heard various complains which were listed in OPs post, but I know the only reason I was loosing was personal errors or other players knocking me back. I was able to improve my ranks the more I played.

Conner.4702:

Genavelle.9516:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Genavelle.9516:

— snip —

So you’re telling people ‘well you’re gonna miss something eventually, so why bother’? That sounds a little … rude.

Just because you can’t understand why people play the way they do, it doesn’t mean you should look down on it or try to devalue it.

No, I’m just saying to be realistic. I never said to “not bother”, I was just suggesting if you reach a point where something out of your control is prohibiting you somehow from getting an achievement, then maybe you should realize that it’s just not going to happen. Y’know instead of frustrating yourself by laps and laps of Sanctum Sprint when you KNOW the skills are going to bug out on you because you have bad latency or lag or whatever..Why not take a break and go work on other achievements or do something you enjoy?

I’m not saying you shouldn’t try, just if you try and try and try and it doesn’t work..Not because you need more practice, but because of factors outside of your control (which is of course what everyone’s saying is why they can’t win Sanctum Sprint), then consider giving it a rest because you can’t get all the achievement points forever anyways.

And to be honest, if people MUST insist on torturing themselves by doing optional activities in the game that they HATE or have tons of problems with (like bugs, lag, etc). Then atleast have the decency to recognize that this was YOUR choice, and stop complaining about it all over map chat and the forums. You have a right to complain when something legitimately is broken, when 100% of the population is unhappy, when you have been somehow wronged by Anet. When you choose to partake in optional activities despite the fact that you hate doing them or have issues that only affect a portion of people (and therefore is not Anet’s fault), you really have no right to complain (as much as people are) about it.

Translation: keep quiet as it doesn’t affect me and I don’t want to read all those complaints.

Ignoring problems does not make them go away or get fixed in the long run.

Except there’s no real problem. People choosing to do things they don’t like is their own choice. And if that were a problem, they would stop doing it.

The biggest actual problem here is the issue of people having bad lag and skills bugging out during the race. Which, as it does not affect everyone, is most likely not Anet’s fault and unfortunately there may not be anything they can do about it. It’s good to let them know there may be a problem, but let’s be honest- that’s not what’s really going on. When you get 10 threads of people QQing about how hard the races are, it’s not just trying to let Anet know there’s a problem. If you want to actually address Anet about a problem, be formal and serious about it, don’t come off as whining that the game isn’t fair.

Genavelle.9516:

I just wanna point out, that choosing to try and collect all the achievement points is your own personal decision. Nobodys saying you need to get all the achievements or anything..That’s your choice. And I honestly don’t understand why some people make this a goal at all. I mean, it would be an okay goal except then people get so frustrated when there is an achievement that they have problems getting. I feel like they get so worked up about NEEDING every single achievement, that the game loses some of its enjoyment. But whatever, it’s your choice.

Not to sound rude, but playing this entire game is my own personal decision. That doesn’t make my desire to do them any less valid.

I’m sorry, but this argument drives me nuts. No one says I have to play Guild Wars 2 at all. This is not a need, it’s a want. We want to experience the game, we want to get the achievements, and there is nothing wrong with that. To say that it’s “optional” is like saying, "No one is forcing you to press the “W” key."

Do you see what I’m saying?

As for not understanding why people make it a goal to get the achievements, I’ll try and explain.

1. Achievements are part of the game. We want to play the game.
2. Achievements give XP points, which are used to get reward chests
3. Achievements allow players to earn items specific to the Living Story (Dragon Helm)
4. Achievements allow players to track their progress

Either way, in the end it is the players choice. And there is nothing wrong with that, even if you can’t understand why.

Genavelle.9516:

Anyways..Not everybody has these problems of the skills not working (I think out of all the times I’ve done sanctum sprint, I’ve only had the lightning skill act up on me once). So I also feel that it’s not really fair to say that the game is bad or depends on luck, when a lot of players actually do not share these problems. Of course, some players are experiencing these kind of problems and I can’t tell you why it’s so buggy and weird for some people, and perfectly fine for others. But I feel that we have to keep that in mind and not act like the mini-game is completely buggy and just not working. Because it IS working for a lot of people, and somewhere along the line between the game and your computer, it is having problems for other people.

Of course not everyone has these problems…and your point is? Not everyone is in a wheelchair, so are you suggesting we take out ramps? You (I assume) can walk, so it’s not a problem for others?

Your entire line of reasoning honestly makes no sense to me. You can’t understand or explain why it’s not working for some, so your conclusion is that because it is working for some, there is no problem?

Being unable to participate in the game due for any reason sucks if you want to. The problem of course is when players, who have learnt to compensate for issues on their end, are now faced with a mechanic that they can’t work around. If the skills for “Lightning Jump” fail 98% of the time, and it takes you hours upon hours to even get one crystal, or finish a race, then it becomes a very frustrating experience.

Genavelle.9516:

Anyways, my best advice..Although you’re probably not going to like it, would be to maybe drop the 100% achievements goal. -snip-

You’re right, I don’t like your advice, and here is why.

You seem to be saying that those experiencing issues, where they haven’t before, should simply accept the reality of their situation and move on. If this is the case, I don’t agree.

Player A and player B are equally important. The player with a perfect computer/connection is not better than the one who does not. So when it comes to issues such as this, we have to look at it critically and decide the best course of action.

For example, if out of the entire player base (which we don’t know), a certain percentage are experiencing these issues, then we/ANet must determine to what degree this effects players.

If no one speaks up, then ANet and the community will assume everything is A-OK, and they will continue to push the game engine. There will be a point in which the number of players experiencing issues exceeds a reasonable amount. We need conversations like this to happen. We need players to submit support tickets, we need YouTube videos, and webpages showing problems others are having.

As a community we need to not be so quick to brush off these issues. We need to accept that fact that no one player deserves special treatment. We need to explore these issues, understand them, and do everything we can to make the experience enjoyable for as many as possible.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

If no one speaks up, then ANet and the community will assume everything is A-OK, and they will continue to push the game engine. There will be a point in which the number of players experiencing issues exceeds a reasonable amount. We need conversations like this to happen. We need players to submit support tickets, we need YouTube videos, and webpages showing problems others are having.

As a community we need to not be so quick to brush off these issues. We need to accept that fact that no one player deserves special treatment. We need to explore these issues, understand them, and do everything we can to make the experience enjoyable for as many as possible.

Quoted for truth.

Maybe if GW2 was made for console, there would be a much more even playing field. PS4 maybe?

I don’t care for the minigame. It’s just something I have to do for the stupid quartz node. If it weren’t for that, I wouldn’t even play this minigame at all.
There is this minigame from the start. Can’t remember the name. Something with a keg. I don’t play it, because I don’t want to. I would if I get something of value, but only for the achievment it’s not worth it for me.
With the quartz node I feel forced to do stuff I don’t want to do. But hey, it’s ANet. They tell you what’s fun.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

3. Allow players to create races with entry requirements (friends only, latency, etc).

I love this suggestion. And If Anet wants to, this can be a new item in gemstore. Lets say 1 coin = 100 gem (you can make a private “insert name of mini game” room which will hold for 1 hour, put in more coin, add 1 hour game time to your “insert name of mini game” room). The NPC GUI is like in PvP, but the list is only for private room, while if you want to play randomly just press Join.

Of course Anet can add the rule: if there is less than 2 people in that room, the game wont start (but the 1 hour game time keep ticking)

I wouldn’t want players with latency to be forced to purchase gem store items to compensate.

I agree we are not all evenly matched, but I don’t see getting the 1st place achievement as a big enough deal to warrant so much discussion. Sure, getting the personal quartz node will result in some players having easier access to unique gear stats, but I have the meta achievement completed and I never got 1st in sprint. Know your limits, pick and choose which achievements you are capable of completing and get to work. If you can’t achieve, maybe you shouldn’t get the achievement reward.

Facepunch.5710:

I agree we are not all evenly matched, but I don’t see getting the 1st place achievement as a big enough deal to warrant so much discussion.

Awesome, so you’ll have no problem allowing others to get it?

Facepunch.5710:

Sure, getting the personal quartz node will result in some players having easier access to unique gear stats.

So, it is important?

Facepunch.5710:

Know your limits, pick and choose which achievements you are capable of completing and get to work. If you can’t achieve, maybe you shouldn’t get the achievement reward.

What if the results of these “limits” are that some players are unable to complete enough achievements in the time they’re available, due to the fact that these mechanics are so prevalent in this update?

I think everyone deserves equal opportunity to get the achievements. Understanding that not everyone is equal, means we need a system to group players based on limitations. Since ANet hasn’t/won’t create this…it is up to us to come together as a community and help each other succeed and have fun.

Yeah we aren’t equal.
Some have more time than others.
Some are more capable than others.

So “as a community” since “a net doesn’t provide” the service, should I be saying “people stop getting achievement points, I don’t have the time to spend in this game like you to catch up to players with 10k AP, since a net didn’t give me the facilities to catch up with the little time that I have, you should all stop and wait for me”?

Or maybe “don’t make yourselves legendary items! A net didn’t give me an option to get these items with my lack of time! You should all give me the money for a legendary since I can’t get it myself”?

Oh how about “stop attacking me in WvW my toon isn’t built to properly play here! A net didn’t provide me with options since I can’t get gold to get items because I don’t have the time! Also I lag and a net didn’t think of giving me alternatives! In fact, let me kill you! You should you know! Selfish! We need to help each other as a community! Let me kill you!”

Honestly, I think it’s nice when people let others win. I do it too if they’re nice about it. But your original stance of “let people play how they want to”, which I think is the most appropriate seems to have disappeared with your last post.

The point is we aren’t equal, we can try to ask for assistance, but you don’t have to give it is the point, especially in a semi-competitive context. You don’t tell the other team in a soccer match to get lost when they score right? You wouldn’t tell them to stop winning because you had other important commitments that prevented you from training, or you were feeling ill, or that you broke up with your boyfriend and you’re really sad at the moment right?

It’s not really “up to us” to even the grounds. They can be evened, they can remain uneven. No choice is better. And there shouldn’t be an obligation for either.

Do whatever you want, just stop being a prick to anyone who doesn’t do what you want.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

If ANet wanted to solve these issues, there are a few things they could do.

1. Make achievements independent of additional rewards.

2. Create a proper match making system that factors in things like latency, wins/losses, average FPS, etc.

3. Allow players to create races with entry requirements (friends only, latency, etc).

1. While it technically is worth points towards an achievement prize, let’s be honest here. What is 5/10/20 points in the grand scheme of things? The best solution would be to make the ‘skill’ achievements worth 0 points and give a title to boast but then title collectors would be upset that they still ‘need to do it.’ Making 100% of achievements obtainable to 100% of people rather defeats the purpose of achievements and further turns them into a time-sink checklist.

2. For the amount of coding work that would require to make things ‘equal’, the games will still not really be equal. You want them to evaluate FPS, latency, packet loss, attached hardware by scanning, check previous win rates, etc and somehow find people on at the same time with the same specs to race? That just isn’t even remotely realistic for an achievement. Even competitive FPS games don’t put in that much effort.

3. Letting people race friends would just mean people cheating it far worse. Might as well just remove the achievement in that case.

Don’t get me wrong. I love this race. Personally, I would jump for joy if they made it a permanent mini-game you could invite friends to after the event ended. It is the best mini-game to date.

Thank you CrazyLegs for a good post, and good follow-up comments.

I’m one of those who, for a few reasons you’ve listed above, is feeling like I won’t be able to finish this meta-achievement. Considering that the ore node is linked to the meta-achievement, this is the first time I’ve felt left out in the game. I don’t really pay attention to dailies, monthlies, etc. If they happen, cool. If not, I still had fun.

There is a lot of content I know I cannot do for various reasons. That’s ok. I don’t expect to climb mountains or go bungee jumping in real life. We aren’t all equal, and I don’t need to do all the same things that other players do in the game. However, I play the game with MY characters as the hero. The stories are written that way. I don’t play to be fodder for others to beat time and time again in a race. MY hero being locked out of general content/generally available reward because I can’t see a green targeting area, or I move slower and can’t make the timing for jumps, etc. just doesn’t sit well.

Now, I’m just hoping that ArenaNet has some other option available to those of us that couldn’t get the “home node” because not only will there be people that couldn’t finish this achievement, there are going to be new players in the future that will not have a chance if this is the only option. Perhaps the next living content…perhaps through gems in the store—not as satisfying as earning it myself this time around, but hopefully there will be options.

Thaia.5146:

I will try to present my point of view in a few words…
This is the third time I am forced to PvP (Southsun – “Crab Toss”, Dragon Bash – “Dragon Ball”)… and I hate PvP – I get nervous playing it… and the game is supposed to be fun not frustrating. Am I right? Someone will definitely tell that “Sanctum Sprinter” is optional… but not for people who collect achivements like me. Furthermore – this achievement is not permanent which further deepens my frustration. I have completely no problem with permanent PvP achivements because I can hop in whenever I feel such need and take care of them. “Sanctum Sprinter” is 85% luck based (only slightly less luck based than “Crabtacular!” – it was the worst achivement in the history of Guild Wars 2…) and do not tell me it is not – Sanctum Sprint is full of bugs and random fails (“Lightning Pull” should be called “I fail 50% of time” or “You will fall to death”). Check out my screens – I ended up in mid air after “Lightning Pull” and was able to run around like this… I wonder what would happen if I looked down – I would fall? Like in cartoons?

You highlight the word “FORCED” as if someone came to your house and physically MADE you do these PvP activities….

The fact that you fancy yourself an “achievement collector” has NO bearing on any design decision that ANet makes or the level of sympathy that anyone should have for you being “FORCED” to perform activities you don’t like.

It’s fine to say you don’t like these types of achievements but don’t make it sound like you some sort of “achievement martyr” that is being persecuted and tortured because every achievement isn’t geared toward what you want to do in the game.

Gabby.3205:

Gabby.3205:

When winning or losing do not depend solely on skill anymore, an achievement for winning hardly means anything.

I’m not familiar with any achievement in this game that means anything?

Up until this last patch, you were 100% correct. With the reward system just put in place, they actually do have a purpose now (my opinion, of course).

I’d just like to note that I’ve been subject to mild verbal harassment for refusing to let people win.

I refuse because it’s dishonest and dishonorable. The title is for people who come in first place, not people who come in fourth. If I reach the finish line first, the game is going to know I did so, and I’m not going to cheese it to pretend I didn’t.

The fact that I’m considered a GRIEFER for having a sense of honor is ridiculous. There is so much entitlement here.

There is so much entitlement here.

I don’t even understand it. I don’t even know why some people bother playing the game at all, seeing as how they:

1) Expect everything handed to them instantly
2) Complain endlessly about anything that isn’t.

When I did Crab Toss, almost every game I entered was made up of a handful of people standing in a circle just giving the crab to the next guy. One person even said something to the effect of, “I don’t know why they don’t just give us the achievement points from the start, we’re just gonna do something like this every time.”

Whenever I tried to play, I just got yelled at and had everyone freaking out and spamming their knockdowns and such on me so that I couldn’t “grief” their little collusion session.

What is the point of even playing if you’re approaching it like that? It’s completely mind-boggling that people want to spend their free time on a game while not playing the game, to the point of saying they just want the “rewards” mailed to them?

I’ve said it before…just go download ProgressQuest if all you care about is “rewards” but don’t actually want to play the game.

As for the “we are not all equal” part…yes, we know. No one is going to be great at everything in every game that they ever play. Most of us just accept that. I guess some people go around expecting every bar to be lowered to whatever level is comfortable to them.

Bovinity.8610:

When I did Crab Toss, almost every game I entered was made up of a handful of people standing in a circle just giving the crab to the next guy. One person even said something to the effect of, “I don’t know why they don’t just give us the achievement points from the start, we’re just gonna do something like this every time.”

Much of that ‘collusion’ in Crab Toss occured because, for a large portion of time, the achievements would not track properly. People colluded to get the achievements when they were working as the rest of the time, when they should have been getting things done, they could not get the achievement.

So yeah … bad comparison there.

So yeah … bad comparison there.

People have been doing it/expecting it in every minigame where it was possible at all. And they sure did it/would have done it in Crab Toss regardless of any achievement bugs.

No excuses, sir. People are just flat out lazy.

Bovinity.8610:

So yeah … bad comparison there.

People have been doing it/expecting it in every minigame where it was possible at all. And they sure did it/would have done it in Crab Toss regardless of any achievement bugs.

No excuses, sir. People are just flat out lazy.

Some may have, yes. Because some don’t play the game for the game, but to get completion. That is how they are choosing to enjoy the game.

I wouldn’t call it laziness. If you were lazy you’d not work with others in such a way to get that set up in the first place. I’d call it efficiency.

It may not be your style or what you approve of, but we don’t care. We don’t play for you. We play for us.

Serbaayuu.3051:

I’d just like to note that I’ve been subject to mild verbal harassment for refusing to let people win.

I refuse because it’s dishonest and dishonorable. The title is for people who come in first place, not people who come in fourth. If I reach the finish line first, the game is going to know I did so, and I’m not going to cheese it to pretend I didn’t.

The fact that I’m considered a GRIEFER for having a sense of honor is ridiculous. There is so much entitlement here.

Just as we shouldn’t be harassed for letting others win, you shouldn’t be harassed for choosing to take the win yourself. It’s entirely up to the one who gets to the line first to choose what to do with the victory, IMHO.

There is nothing dishonorable about taking first, just as there is nothing dishonorable about being allowed to take first by others. You may disagree with it on principle but there really isn’t anything wrong with the practice.

It may not be your style or what you approve of, but we don’t care. We don’t play for you. We play for us.

Oh please, don’t try to take such a high and noble position for what amounts to wanting a trophy without playing. Just call it what it is, you’d get more respect that way.

Hm… I’m not sure if people do not read before posting or if they really think that you must be near the server, young, with a good connection and a good computer to deserve an achievement that should be based on skill (but it is not because of the reasons the OP pointed out). That last being the case, well, nothing I can say can convince you otherwise. It is not honorable helping people that have a worse playing condition than you, right? Actually, how dare the “night crew” to set foot out of the WvW, right?
If you do not want to give up your first place, fine, that’s your choice and nobody should be mean to you for that. However, don’t come to a topic about equality and spout these foolish assumptions.

Bovinity.8610:

As for the “we are not all equal” part…yes, we know. No one is going to be great at everything in every game that they ever play. Most of us just accept that. I guess some people go around expecting every bar to be lowered to whatever level is comfortable to them.

It is not about “being good”, it is about having a chance. It is an achievement for winning a race that is not based on skill, but mostly on where in the world you are and on how great your computer and your internet connection is. How is that right or fair? Well, in my opinion, it is not.
And before saying anything, I do not have problems to win the race, and I got my title by myself, nobody let me win. The thing is, while I am lucky I have a very minor problem with latency, I know that a lot of people are not that lucky, so I won’t just wave my hands in the air, tell them that “you can’t win because you suck, so whatever, you can’t have the same chances we do, get used to it” and pretend that the problem does not exist.

Bovinity.8610:

It may not be your style or what you approve of, but we don’t care. We don’t play for you. We play for us.

Oh please, don’t try to take such a high and noble position for what amounts to wanting a trophy without playing. Just call it what it is, you’d get more respect that way.

I earned my first, thankyouverymuch. And I end up in first place on well over half of my runs. I just choose not to prevent others from getting the achievement. I got what I needed from it and the repeated rewards from first place are a small pittance over what I get from fourth (my preferred placing).

The person who crosses first after I abdicate my win is still playing and competing. They still have all other competitors to beat, after all. Heck, most of them don’t know they’re first as I use that somewhat infamous shortcut and they see me across the line and assume they’re in second.

Wanting a trophy without playing is asking everyone else to throw the race and not even bothering for a decent time. I’ve not seen that a single time.

Please look at the situation and stop considering everyone who asks for help to be entitled brats. You’ll get more respect that way.

Please look at the situation and stop considering everyone who asks for help to be entitled brats. You’ll get more respect that way.

Most of them ARE entitled brats. Look at a huge number of the threads on these forums. It’s all pretty sad.

Bovinity.8610:

Please look at the situation and stop considering everyone who asks for help to be entitled brats. You’ll get more respect that way.

Most of them ARE entitled brats. Look at a huge number of the threads on these forums. It’s all pretty sad.

Some are, yes. Not most. Most people I’ve seen here I would choose to help. Only a small handful would I not.

Grouping in the players that are unable to win without incredible luck due to latency with the ones that don’t want to try themselves is a disservice to the community. Grouping in the players that ask politely with the players who demean those who choose to accept their own hard-earned win is a disservice to the community.

If you play the game on a computer that can barely run it from an Internet connection that has high latency then that’s your fault. I don’t mean to sound harsh but that’s the sad truth. That is not an excuse to dumb down content.

Ayrilana.1396:

If you play the game on a computer that can barely run it from an Internet connection that has high latency then that’s your fault. I don’t mean to sound harsh but that’s the sad truth. That is not an excuse to dumb down content.

I’m not seeing requests for dumbed-down content. I’m seeing requests for ANet to try to keep from designing skills that fail with high latency and for players to assist. Nothing more.

Ayrilana.1396:

If you play the game on a computer that can barely run it from an Internet connection that has high latency then that’s your fault. I don’t mean to sound harsh but that’s the sad truth. That is not an excuse to dumb down content.

Agreed..I mean everyone’s acting like it’s Anet’s fault that their game is lagging or getting buggy, but if it was a fault in the game itself it would be happening for everyone. And it’s not. And I’ve seen people post that they run on like 100 fps and still have these issues, while I’m running 30 fps and it’s perfectly fine. So whatever is causing the lag and bugs, whether it’s your connection, or something else, is on YOUR end. And unfortunately, there may be NOTHING Anet can do about that. Except as Ayrilana says, to “dumb down” future content. If everything has to be designed for people with the worst latency, all the future content is going to be a lot less interesting and fun than it could be.

As with any other game, guild wars 2 has requirements. You can’t run this game on certain computers, you need a certain amount of stuff goin on in your cpu specs so that this game can run properly. If you’re playing gw2 on a computer/connection that doesn’t or just barely meets the technical requirements, then I’m sorry but you ARE going to have problems. In general it may still be playable, but you can’t expect to run around on Ultra settings, doing the most fast-paced, intense activities in the game when your set-up isn’t fit for that. And this isn’t Anet or other players’ fault. It’s not even really your fault unless you decided you really wanted to play with kittenty connection and bad graphics. But you can’t blame Anet or demand other players to accomodate your lack of meeting the requirements, or ask that Anet stop making content based on what they said the computer requirements should be in order to handle content…

Genavelle.9516:

Ayrilana.1396:

If you play the game on a computer that can barely run it from an Internet connection that has high latency then that’s your fault. I don’t mean to sound harsh but that’s the sad truth. That is not an excuse to dumb down content.

Agreed..I mean everyone’s acting like it’s Anet’s fault that their game is lagging or getting buggy, but if it was a fault in the game itself it would be happening for everyone. And it’s not. And I’ve seen people post that they run on like 100 fps and still have these issues, while I’m running 30 fps and it’s perfectly fine. So whatever is causing the lag and bugs, whether it’s your connection, or something else, is on YOUR end. And unfortunately, there may be NOTHING Anet can do about that. Except as Ayrilana says, to “dumb down” future content. If everything has to be designed for people with the worst latency, all the future content is going to be a lot less interesting and fun than it could be.

Unfortunately, Genavelle, it is ANet’s fault that they didn’t design Lightning Pull to properly account for latency. That skill, and the areas that require it, is the biggest obstacle for Oceanic players and others with high latency.

And please don’t tell me it’s all because of the users. The game did officially launch in regions like Australia where high-latency affects everyone as there are no Oceanic servers. It is ANet’s duty to deliver content that is playable by all regions that the game officially launched in.

They don’t need to dumb down the content. They just need to be aware when designing the skills to handle higher latency. If Lightning Pull didn’t rubberband higher-latency players so badly, we’d not see this conversation occur as it has.

Now now children, play nicely ….

LOL

I think you’ll find many of the threads complaining about the lag arn’t complaining because they’re losing. I know most folks out there are probably my better at the racing.

What bothers me is this whole idea looks so much fun yet I physically cannot participate due to skill latency making the skills behave extremely erraticlly.