Guild Wars 2

The one thing that upsets me in all of this, is that I am an avid mesmer player and to think we are getting the shaft on a backpiece that easily caters to us, is disappointing. I refuse to spend thousands of gold for an item I feel should be acquired as easily as Light of Dwayna or Shadow of Grenth. Even Balthazar is fairly simple. A slight grind, but a grind you can still do nonetheless. I hope that ArenaNet -actually- addresses this issue directly and explain why mesmers are getting screwed over on their backpiece.

Atmosphere.1394:

The one thing that upsets me in all of this, is that I am an avid mesmer player and to think we are getting the shaft on a backpiece that easily caters to us, is disappointing. I refuse to spend thousands of gold for an item I feel should be acquired as easily as Light of Dwayna or Shadow of Grenth. Even Balthazar is fairly simple. A slight grind, but a grind you can still do nonetheless. I hope that ArenaNet -actually- addresses this issue directly and explain why mesmers are getting screwed over on their backpiece.

Because we’re not entitled to get everything we want?

John Smith.4610:

Fungalfoot.7213:

The reason why ANet won’t do anything about flippers hijacking markets is because it benefits them greatly to see these higher prices. Remember that gold as a currency is tied to gems which can be purchased for real money. They hope to drive new players into purchasing gold in order to catch up which is exactly why they keep on nerfing popular farm spots.

Unfortunately this short-sighted greed is having an extremely negative effect on the game as a whole. Short of getting extraordinarily lucky a new player will have no way to ever compete on the market. They’re strangling their own game trying to squeeze a few more dollars out of it.

I don’t agree. The best result for the game and therefor the best result for ArenaNet is for the markets to work as efficiently as possible (usually). Fortunately, the nature of the trading post provides a lot of natural force for markets to work efficiently. While nothing is 100% perfect, the large majority of every part of the game’s economy runs incredibly efficiently and we put a lot of effort into making sure that they remain that way.

What exactly is going smooth?

Runes?
Sigils?
precursors?
Rare recipes?
rare skins?

What exactly?
those thousands of White/blue/green leather items?

How much longer can you still pretend economy is great just throwing random baseless statements?

What about doing something for the lack of supply for once?
Do you think is bad damaging greedy manipulations putting finally some REAL risk in this broken economy (only for excess)?

LordByron.8369:

What exactly is going smooth?

Runes?
Sigils?
precursors?
Rare recipes?
rare skins?

What exactly?
those thousands of White/blue/green leather items?

How much longer can you still pretend economy is great just throwing random baseless statements?

What about doing something for the lack of supply for once?
Do you think is bad damaging greedy manipulations putting finally some REAL risk in this broken economy (only for excess)?

Please see the following:

John Smith.4610:

While nothing is 100% perfect, the large majority of every part of the game’s economy runs incredibly efficiently and we put a lot of effort into making sure that they remain that way.

We don’t need more account bound items. Even if they were account bound that would probably mean most player would never have a chance at one.

With the Profiteers you at lease have an avenue of acquiring one even if it is 3 or 6 months from now.

If you want the item so bad grind it out 2k to 4k guanlet bags should get you what you want. While that may sound like a lot players are able to kill targets with 5 gambits in 13 seconds. You have a little less than a month.

Anet should not regulate prices. The smart people have figured out that people will pay a lot. You have option just as the super rich players have either put in the time to get all that gold either with game time or real world cash you have that option.

If you don’t want to put in the time you really cant complain you don’t have nice thing.

The CoL imho is the best backpiece in the game better than both the other 3 gods backpieces. To me it seem that warriors and guardians and necromancers are getting the shaft as their deities back piece looks like trash compared to CoL

The Balthazar on is easy to get but I guess it’s fitting as warrior are easy mode anyway

Morinmeth.9823:

ZilentNight.5089:

Do you consider the precursor and Chaos of Lyssa market working “efficiently”?
I guess quite efficient for the flippers.

Add T6 mats in there too. Their prices are hilarious.

Well, to be fair, problem with those originates outside market and is unrelated to it. TP by itself is working fine for those – it’s the lack of supply compared to the demand that should be looked into. In the case of Chaos of lyssa, for example, market manipulations are just a direct result of the abysmally low droprate – and it is that droprate that should be fixed.

This economy reminds me of Vegas….the odds are in the houses favor, always!

My take away from the thread: John Smith doesn’t see any issues of concern to the economy as whole.

• He’s aware of the high prices.
• He’s aware of the perception that drop rates are “too low.”
• He’s aware of the perception that a handful of people are artificially manipulating the supply and price on the TP by buying as many units as possible and selling them slowly.

Now, that doesn’t address the issue that a bunch of people are concerned enough to post here, on Reddit, on Guru, and elsewhere, bemoaning this state of affairs — Smith is in charge of the economy, not player satisfaction in general.

Personally, I think ANet made an odd choice that some god-themed backpack recipes would be easily acquired and some wouldn’t be. But I fully accept that no matter how much coin I gather, I’ll never have all the things I covet in the game and even some individual items that I’ll never be able to afford.

In other words, I can afford to gather mats for a legendary or I could sell those mats and have enough to buy a recipe for a popular (but rarely seen) back item. I can have Twilight for my mesmer or the Chaos of Lyssa, not both. I’m okay with that.

So it’s worth mentioning that the people who post regularly in the blt threads are now soaking up posts in this thread.

There is a ‘group think’ mentality that persists with these people that in the mists of making a lot of gold off of others they will tell you it’s best for the community.

If you believe them, that while they line their pockets they are providing a service that makes the economy for all players in Gw2 better.

The market manipulation schtick is largely overplayed by people who like to think they are the next Fischer Black. The drop rate is just low and the gauntlet farm is very boring.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

My take away from the thread: John Smith doesn’t see any issues of concern to the economy as whole.

• He’s aware of the high prices.
• He’s aware of the perception that drop rates are “too low.”
• He’s aware of the perception that a handful of people are artificially manipulating the supply and price on the TP by buying as many units as possible and selling them slowly.

Now, that doesn’t address the issue that a bunch of people are concerned enough to post here, on Reddit, on Guru, and elsewhere, bemoaning this state of affairs — Smith is in charge of the economy, not player satisfaction in general.

Well, he doesn’t play the game, so he doesn’t see what is obvious to many. Economy in GW2 is indeed efficient – too bad, that it’s one of the very few things that are working fine in this game. Thus, economy may seem okay of you look at it separately from the rest of the game, but if you actually play it, the contrast between TP minigame and the other, theoretically more “core” gameplay options is just too painful. Additionally, TP highlights the general reward for effort issue, and often gets blame for it. Then John Smith (supported by a lot of BLT subforum “natives”) go valiantly to its rescue explaining (quite truthfully) that TP is working right. While completely forgetting to look beyond that, to the real issues.

Basically, the economy is indeed working right, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is working in a way that makes the game less fun for anyone that is not an economist/trader. Which of course said economists and traders are unable to see.

I don’t suppose we can get a direct answer about whether the Chaos of Lyssa drop rate is working as intended, John? Or whether it will be adjusted in a coming patch? I’ve made my stance on the matter clear in previous posts, but if CoL is intended to be this rare, then so be it; I’ll adjust my expectations appropriately. It would just be nice to put an end to the speculation and uncertainty one way or another.

What I don’t understand is why make the RNG so lowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww in a large MMO such as this, I don’t understand why you would make an item (chaos of lyssa recipe) drop uber rarely amongst thousands of players.

Except for the guys theory about trying to get people to buy gems. I understand making it rare but at some point you have to think it gets to a stage it’s too rare. I’m pretty sure I’d have more chance being hit by a car then by a bus straight after than getting RNG chance at the Chaos of Lyssa Recipe :|

The thing about buying gems is that it’s going to be even more absurd because people would rather do business with a gold seller. Heck I see their rates about 100 times a day due to their endless spamming. Pressuring people to buy gems so they can get an ascended recipe (not even the actual item) is a bit much. I say they make some use out of that stupid favor of the festival and let us exchange one plus something else whether it be gold, laurels, tokens, etc. for a ONE time buy recipe.

I mean they totally know what they’re doing. There’s no way they put this into the game and thought it wouldn’t cause an uproar. You make grenth/dwayna pretty easy to get, and balth is just a pvp grind that anyone can do really. But suddenly a recipe that is going to cost at least 50 gold to make the kitten thing, has a precursor drop rate. Either nobody thought this through or they’re really really trying to get people’s panties in a bunch.

John Smith.4610:

Astralporing.1957:

Well, he doesn’t play the game, so he doesn’t see what is obvious to many.

My three level 80’s and Tequatl Greatsword disagree with your statement.

All my rage. My jealous, jealous rage.

Tequatl will continue to support me with his Runes for whatever reason.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Morinmeth.9823:

ZilentNight.5089:

John Smith.4610:

Fungalfoot.7213:

The reason why ANet won’t do anything about flippers hijacking markets is because it benefits them greatly to see these higher prices. Remember that gold as a currency is tied to gems which can be purchased for real money. They hope to drive new players into purchasing gold in order to catch up which is exactly why they keep on nerfing popular farm spots.

Unfortunately this short-sighted greed is having an extremely negative effect on the game as a whole. Short of getting extraordinarily lucky a new player will have no way to ever compete on the market. They’re strangling their own game trying to squeeze a few more dollars out of it.

I don’t agree. The best result for the game and therefor the best result for ArenaNet is for the markets to work as efficiently as possible (usually). Fortunately, the nature of the trading post provides a lot of natural force for markets to work efficiently. While nothing is 100% perfect, the large majority of every part of the game’s economy runs incredibly efficiently and we put a lot of effort into making sure that they remain that way.

Do you consider the precursor and Chaos of Lyssa market working “efficiently”?
I guess quite efficient for the flippers.

Add T6 mats in there too. Their prices are hilarious.

The problem is, what do you want them to do? Manually control the prices of everything through supply?

Do you want to play the game and buy things knowing that at a whim, and t a constant whim at that, Anet will send shockwaves throughout the economy? I sure don’t.

I think the best way ANet to improve player experience is by not nerfing farming spots. I don’t understand any of their decision at all. Most veteran players have already gone way ahead of the game. By nerfing farming spots you are not prevent economy imbalance. The imbalance is already there but by nerfing those farming spots you are hurting new comers. Now they don’t have any choice but to buy items from TP because it’s very difficult to get items or mats they need. Allow me to explain;
Everyone is flipping prices in TP. And I mean everyone include myself. Why? Because farming spots have been killed. If I can’t farm what I need the only thing left for me to do is to buy it from TP. But wait a second, I don’t have enough gold to buy what I need. So, what do I do? Buy stuff other people need and flip it. Get enough gold and buy what I need. Do you see the problem here? I just got what I wanted not by completing an event or killing mobs but by using trade post.
Maybe this entire trade post system should be changed. Instead of trading for gold, we could trade for items of similar value e.g. I’m willing to sell diamond gem. Who is offering anything of similar value?

I think this would fix this entire mess. By eliminating trading for gold we can avoid falling for the gold = money trap. Flipping items in TP comes from falling to the idea that gold= similar to money in real life illusion. And it’s impossible to avoid that illusion or ignore it. Since we use currency system to run our daily lives. The only thing left to do is to remove it from trading post. I’m not saying we should remove the currency system altogether. But maybe it should be limited to certain items or NPC merchants etc.
I understand that removing gold from trading post altogether will make it difficult to grasp what is of good value and what isn’t but that’s not the point here. Think about it, the reason why we want TP in MMORPG games is to get items that we need. It is not to hoard endless amount of gold. This is what I mean by don’t fall for the gold = real money illusion. If you can get the item that you need by trading for another item. And then complete your exotic set or weapon in the process. Does it really matter how you got the item that you were looking for? This method will put out most gold hoarders out of business. And everyone will get what they want. Well at-least those of us that simply wants to play the game and have fun.

Don’t fall for the illusion!

No1 have problem with people flipping it,it just the drop rate is so low it give change tickets almost no rewards for the works people put in to it.

It like lotto system atm were 99.999% lose and waist there time in the gauntlet

Zaxares.5419:

I don’t suppose we can get a direct answer about whether the Chaos of Lyssa drop rate is working as intended, John? Or whether it will be adjusted in a coming patch? I’ve made my stance on the matter clear in previous posts, but if CoL is intended to be this rare, then so be it; I’ll adjust my expectations appropriately. It would just be nice to put an end to the speculation and uncertainty one way or another.

I could be misinterpreting but isn’t the next patch the one that will removing all this content?

Taisia.2813:

laokoko.7403:

Lord Kuru.3685:

It’s the Chaos of Lyssa Cartel! They’re going to start advertising: “Chaos of Lyssas are a girls best friend” pretty soon.

Get More Gold!

Remember that you can exchange gems and gold at our currency exchange on the second tab of the Black Lion Trading Company! Currently, you can buy Choas of Lyssa for 415 US$!

I guess that sums this issue up nicely… Sadly GW2 is becoming completely about luck, wealth accumulation though farming or tp and somewhere in a tiny dark forgotten corner is acquisition of unique gear through skill. A corner yet to be found.

Don’t be silly, GW2 is not “becoming completely about luck”. It has always been that way. It might be that in the past it involved things that didn’t concerned so you didn’t notice. You might not like it but at least they’ve been consistent.

Zaxares.5419:

I don’t suppose we can get a direct answer about whether the Chaos of Lyssa drop rate is working as intended

I love a thread where John comes and dispels a misconception.

But this is what bothers me most about these threads (this backpiece, precursors, other really rare items). We never get the answers to the questions that really matter, because we always seem to get caught up in arguments over market manipulation or “Anet just wants us to buy gems to convert to gold” or other distractions.

I agree with John, and I think the economy works great the large majority of the time. As far as MMO economies (at least that I have any passing familiarity with), the only one I’ve seen that I think is better is EVE, and that game is a whole different ball’o’wax that just doesn’t compare to any others.

The real question is: are these items too rare? Or more specifically, is the drop rate of these items too low?

A related question is: is it a “good thing” that there are very desirable super rare items that even moderately dedicated players have little chance of ever getting?

I feel personally that GW has an over reliance on random drops, and that is only exacerbated by the abysmal drop rate on certain items.

A firm grasp of statistics is really necessary here. A quick example: how many times would it take you to guarantee getting an item with a 1 in 3 chance to drop from doing an action? We’ll define “guarantee” at 95% of getting that item. The answer isn’t 3. Or even 6. It’s 8. What??? Sorry, maths below.

So let’s take a hypothetical 100 people that want some item. They run a dungeon, or kill a boss, or whatever until they get it. The item drops 1 out of 3 times the action is performed.

First attempt with those 100 people. 100 people times 1/3 chance = 33 of them get it and are happy, and move on to something else. There’s 67 left. On the second try, we no longer have 100 people, we’ve only got 67. So 67*1/3 = 22 successes. 22 people are happy on their second try, leaving 45 that aren’t. Third try 45*1/3 = 15. Left with 30 now. Fourth is 30*1/3=10. 20 left. Fifth 20*1/3=7. 13 left – sixth try 13*1/3=4. 9 left, seventh try 9*1/3=3, 6 left. Eighth try 6*1/3=2, and we’ve got 4 left who are still unlucky, but 96 out of our 100 got the item, and meets our 95% limit. If you want a better explanation, you can find many good ones on the internet.

So here’s the formula for finding this out without having to do it repeatedly: s = 1 – (1 – c)^t
s = success rate after consecutive tries
c = chance to succeed per try (1/3 on this example)
t = number of tries

You can quickly see that with lower chances, this gets more ridiculous for the people trying to complete it. For a 1/10 chance, it takes 29 attempts for a 95% success rate.

When we’re talking about precursor forging (somewhere are 1 in 800 chance for 4 rares into the forge last I saw anyone do sufficient testing), we’re talking 2400 tries. Overall this is balanced out by those really lucky attempts where someone gets it after a few tries – but it still doesn’t help that poor guy on the low end of the bell curve trying to get his precursor by putting rares into the MF. Those unlucky people have the right to be frustrated when they’re subjected to random number statistics with no real alternative to speak of.

Sure, no one “needs” a precursor, or Chaos of Lyssa, or whatever. They also don’t “need” to play GW2, so if you want to keep them, give them a reasonable way to make progress towards getting them (without just grinding whatever the fastest way to earn gold is at the moment – even assuming they can keep up with the inflation trend of those items).

Rich flippers have been controlling the TP since Day 1. I’ve accepted it because it’s not going to change.

Khisanth.2948:

Zaxares.5419:

I don’t suppose we can get a direct answer about whether the Chaos of Lyssa drop rate is working as intended, John? Or whether it will be adjusted in a coming patch? I’ve made my stance on the matter clear in previous posts, but if CoL is intended to be this rare, then so be it; I’ll adjust my expectations appropriately. It would just be nice to put an end to the speculation and uncertainty one way or another.

I could be misinterpreting but isn’t the next patch the one that will removing all this content?

There was originally going to be a patch tomorrow that would update the Battle Historian in WvW to give out rewards for the Spring Tournament tickets. (That’s since been pushed back until they sort out the issues with some players not receiving their tickets.) They might still release whatever else was slated to be in tomorrow’s patch, which could possibly be an adjustment to the CoL drop rate IF internally they’ve decided this is something they should look at.

JS has a firm track record of not giving away anything in his forum posts (his blog posts on the GW2 website are another matter) that could affect the market (for good or ill), so it could still go either way.

@Tamasan: Good post on probability of drops. I also want to add that, in the vast majority of cases, a spirited run of bad luck isn’t the end of the road, because you can usually just buy the item you want from someone who was lucky enough to get it. This isn’t really the case with Chaos of Lyssa, since the saleable item is a recipe; you still have to shell out a hefty investment for the final look. Furthermore, there is no way for crafters to leverage their purchase by selling their Lyssa backpieces to interested buyers.

It all just adds up to feel like the CoL is abnormally hard to get, locked behind both a high RNG/wealth gate AND an additional wealth gate to craft it.

I thought he was going to ACTUALLY post about the problem, Chaos os Lyssa Recipe but instead he dodges the question.

Does anet want it to be Extremely rare? Does anet want the rich to have a item only they can afford? Did anet thought it was drop more due to last years Guantlet farms (even tho they was farm for gold, there is no gold in it this year so no, they wont be farmed)?

Tamasan.6457:

The real question is: are these items too rare? Or more specifically, is the drop rate of these items too low?

A related question is: is it a “good thing” that there are very desirable super rare items that even moderately dedicated players have little chance of ever getting?

I feel personally that GW has an over reliance on random drops, and that is only exacerbated by the abysmal drop rate on certain items.

As an observation here:

Wasn’t the whole point of dungeon tokens that, unlike other MMOs such as WoW, you didn’t have the problem of running potentially dozens or hundreds of raids hoping to have the item you wanted drop, but could know that after a certain number of runs, you’d have the dungeon tokens to purchase it outright? Thus making desired items something you could get with a planned-for number of runs?

And now, we’re seeing more and more things that can only be gained through quite low drop chances. It does feel a bit as if the gear system has been continuously ‘backsliding’ to the MMO norms.

John Smith.4610:

Astralporing.1957:

Well, he doesn’t play the game, so he doesn’t see what is obvious to many.

My three level 80’s and Tequatl Greatsword disagree with your statement.

Gratz for being rng lucky, I guess.?

Do you think this is fun for the players? For example you talk about Tequatl, I’ve been killing that dragon for months everyday and I still haven’t got a single Hoard. I’ve killed the wurm around 80 times, haven’t got the Wurmslayer armor ( or the minipet..).

Seriously, I like this game but sometimes I don’t understand how you guys can’t see that rng is not fun, give us a token system for this kind of things that are even account bound (so it’s not like we’re going to make tons of money on it).

Going back to the Chaos of Lyssa, same thing… repeating the same bosses everyday to farm bags and to get absolutely NOTHING is not fun. And it’s for a recipe like other in the game, that are wort 3 or 4 gold. It’s not normal to pay 3k gold for it only for an obvious drop rate error.

Be honest for once Arenanet, don’t repeat the same error as the Final Rest.

I don’t really care abt ppl flipping the back item. Just increase the drop rate of the recipe, or give us another way to get it beside RNG. You’ve done it several times before (twisted watchwork shoulder skin for example), why can’t you make it again this time?

Compared to the other god-theme back item, the droprate of this recipe is ridiculously low

BlueBoy.1236:

Just increase the drop rate of the recipe

But if you increase the drop rate it will cost more. Wait! What?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Double-the-precursor-drop-rate/first

Lolindir.3518:

Do you think this is fun for the players? For example you talk about Tequatl, I’ve been killing that dragon for months everyday and I still haven’t got a single Hoard. I’ve killed the wurm around 80 times, haven’t got the Wurmslayer armor ( or the minipet..).

Seriously, I like this game but sometimes I don’t understand how you guys can’t see that rng is not fun, give us a token system for this kind of things that are even account bound (so it’s not like we’re going to make tons of money on it).
.

If so many players hate RNG then why do they sell so many dye packs and BL keys? There are multiple weapons and sets of armor you can buy for karma and dungeon tokens, but the only one that players used to wear a lot was from CoF. That fad has passed and these items are all but ignored except as MF fuel to try and get a random precursor drop. It’s the same with rare and exotic weapons, while rare individually they drop in great enough numbers that many players see them only as material to salvage for runes and ectos or throw into the MF.

The most popular and expensive items in the game tend to be RNG-based. Precursors/Legendaries, extremely rare dyes from gem shop dye packs and other rare dyes like Abyss… Before they were added to the weapon ticket vendor, Fused weapon skins were more prized than anything except Legendaries, far more popular than the Wintersday weapons that were sold directly through the gem shop.

Complain about it if you want, but player behavior overwhelmingly indicates that the chase to find random drops drives most of the players, and vendor-based items are all but ignored. The devs collect data from many different sources, and if the RNG based methods were not successful, they wouldn’t be handing out ticket scraps and unidentified dyes.

FearedbytheGods.8617:

BlueBoy.1236:

Just increase the drop rate of the recipe

But if you increase the drop rate it will cost more. Wait! What?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Double-the-precursor-drop-rate/first

You didn’t read that thread, right? The price of crafting the recipe might go up (not that much, i doubt that many people would actually craft it to affect the market in a visible way). The price of recipe itself would definitely go down.

Also, John: gratz on being lucky with Tequatl (never even seen a tequatl hoard myself). If you do play, however, then i don’t get why your posts seem to show complete lack of understanding of players psychology.

Astralporing.1957:

Also, John: gratz on being lucky with Tequatl (never even seen a tequatl hoard myself). If you do play, however, then i don’t get why your posts seem to show complete lack of understanding of players psychology.

Perhaps because his posts are based on actual data obtained from player behavior in the game instead of assumptions and personal preferences.

For example, a typical assumption is “rich players control the precursor market,” while actual data shows that dozens of precursors are sold every day and most of them are sold by different individuals (no one person or small group are responsible for most of the precursor sales, a prerequisite to controlling the market).

The former statement comes from forum posters, the latter from JS.

tolunart.2095:

Lolindir.3518:

Do you think this is fun for the players? For example you talk about Tequatl, I’ve been killing that dragon for months everyday and I still haven’t got a single Hoard. I’ve killed the wurm around 80 times, haven’t got the Wurmslayer armor ( or the minipet..).

Seriously, I like this game but sometimes I don’t understand how you guys can’t see that rng is not fun, give us a token system for this kind of things that are even account bound (so it’s not like we’re going to make tons of money on it).
.

If so many players hate RNG then why do they sell so many dye packs and BL keys? There are multiple weapons and sets of armor you can buy for karma and dungeon tokens, but the only one that players used to wear a lot was from CoF. That fad has passed and these items are all but ignored except as MF fuel to try and get a random precursor drop. It’s the same with rare and exotic weapons, while rare individually they drop in great enough numbers that many players see them only as material to salvage for runes and ectos or throw into the MF.

The most popular and expensive items in the game tend to be RNG-based. Precursors/Legendaries, extremely rare dyes from gem shop dye packs and other rare dyes like Abyss… Before they were added to the weapon ticket vendor, Fused weapon skins were more prized than anything except Legendaries, far more popular than the Wintersday weapons that were sold directly through the gem shop.

Complain about it if you want, but player behavior overwhelmingly indicates that the chase to find random drops drives most of the players, and vendor-based items are all but ignored. The devs collect data from many different sources, and if the RNG based methods were not successful, they wouldn’t be handing out ticket scraps and unidentified dyes.

You really think that if people had a choice, they would be wasting time with rng? If you could get a precursor with 1000 tokens of every dungeon (for example), do you think people would still be throwing exotics in the mystic toilet?

The fact is that if you want a certain item, you usually have only one choice.
Of course if we’re talking about legendary weapons, I’m ok with them being rare (they’re not anymore, but nevermind). But if we talk about normal items being overpriced just becaue something in the game doesnt work, then I’m sorry but I really think it should be fixed.

Another example could be the Immobulus, it’s a simple exotic item but it costs as much as a precursor only because you need 250 Giant’s Eyes.. a material that drops less than a precursor. Is this normal to you? I think there should be a reason if an item i overpriced, not just because something in the game doesn’t drop.

If we had a choice, things would be different you can’t say “players do that, so it works”.

If you could get a precursor with 8000 dungeon tokens, the hardcore players would have all gotten their by November 2012 and no one would care about them any more because they aren’t special.

And that is the point. It’s the chase that drives people, not the item iteself.

tolunart.2095:

If you could get a precursor with 8000 dungeon tokens, the hardcore players would have all gotten their by November 2012 and no one would care about them any more because they aren’t special.

And that is the point. It’s the chase that drives people, not the item iteself.

I repeat, I’m ok with legendaries being rare. I don’t care about this.

What is wrong is that normal items like this recipe, that is the same as Grenth and Dwayna’s backpiece recipes, are so overpriced only because the drop rate is low.

If they wanted the god’s backpieces to be so expensive, it should have been all or none of them. Balthazar’s backpiece can be acquired with some pvp, so basically free… all this difference has no real reason except the stupid rng.

tolunart.2095:

If you could get a precursor with 8000 dungeon tokens, the hardcore players would have all gotten their by November 2012 and no one would care about them any more because they aren’t special.

And that is the point. It’s the chase that drives people, not the item iteself.

To be fair, being successful business model doesn’t automatically mean that people like it. Nobody likes having their time and effort rewarded with nothing (unless they’re massive masochists who are into neglect play), but due to whatever psychological quirk a lot of people seem to be particularly weak to gambling.

Hell, it works for Las Vegas, it’ll work for GW2.

I don’t think any game should be proud of sharing a business model with Vegas though.

Lolindir.3518:

tolunart.2095:

If you could get a precursor with 8000 dungeon tokens, the hardcore players would have all gotten their by November 2012 and no one would care about them any more because they aren’t special.

And that is the point. It’s the chase that drives people, not the item iteself.

I repeat, I’m ok with legendaries being rare. I don’t care about this.

What is wrong is that normal items like this recipe, that is the same as Grenth and Dwayna’s backpiece recipes, are so overpriced only because the drop rate is low.

If they wanted the god’s backpieces to be so expensive, it should have been all or none of them. Balthazar’s backpiece can be acquired with some pvp, so basically free… all this difference has no real reason except the stupid rng.

They try different things. Some weapon skins were found in BL chests. Some were sold directly through the gem shop. Some were found in event-specific containers. Eventually they decided on a single method.

So it doesn’t surprise me that some back skins are more/less common than others, because they went through the same process before. Remember that the recipe is rare right now but that doesn’t mean it will always be. Patience.

Pandaman.4758:

To be fair, being successful business model doesn’t automatically mean that people like it. Nobody likes having their time and effort rewarded with nothing (unless they’re massive masochists who are into neglect play), but due to whatever psychological quirk a lot of people seem to be particularly weak to gambling.

Hell, it works for Las Vegas, it’ll work for GW2.

I don’t think any game should be proud of sharing a business model with Vegas though.

Many types of games, especially RPGs, have always had this element of randomness. This goes back to Dungeons and Dragons and the random treasure tables.

You might not like it, personally, but casinos and lotteries are a huge profit-generating industry that goes way beyond Las Vegas. I don’t know of any MMO that doesn’t reward random loot, GW2 gives each player his own loot roll instead of making him fight the other members of his group for a rare drop, so I see it as better than most.

tolunart.2095:

Lolindir.3518:

tolunart.2095:

If you could get a precursor with 8000 dungeon tokens, the hardcore players would have all gotten their by November 2012 and no one would care about them any more because they aren’t special.

And that is the point. It’s the chase that drives people, not the item iteself.

I repeat, I’m ok with legendaries being rare. I don’t care about this.

What is wrong is that normal items like this recipe, that is the same as Grenth and Dwayna’s backpiece recipes, are so overpriced only because the drop rate is low.

If they wanted the god’s backpieces to be so expensive, it should have been all or none of them. Balthazar’s backpiece can be acquired with some pvp, so basically free… all this difference has no real reason except the stupid rng.

They try different things. Some weapon skins were found in BL chests. Some were sold directly through the gem shop. Some were found in event-specific containers. Eventually they decided on a single method.

So it doesn’t surprise me that some back skins are more/less common than others, because they went through the same process before. Remember that the recipe is rare right now but that doesn’t mean it will always be. Patience.

That is a different thing, it’s the reason why we’re writing here the recipe it’s rare right now, but we want it to be less rare. So there IS a reason to voice our discontent on the forum.

Mission accomplished. Come back tomorrow, if it’s a bug then they’ll probably fix it on patch day. If it’s a design choice then it will probably be 3-6 months before you see a difference.

tolunart.2095:

Many types of games, especially RPGs, have always had this element of randomness. This goes back to Dungeons and Dragons and the random treasure tables.

You might not like it, personally, but casinos and lotteries are a huge profit-generating industry that goes way beyond Las Vegas. I don’t know of any MMO that doesn’t reward random loot, GW2 gives each player his own loot roll instead of making him fight the other members of his group for a rare drop, so I see it as better than most.

That is true for in-game drops, though I would argue any tabletop game that asks players to roll a d100000 and only gives out loot on a 100000 would find itself being used as a coaster in other, more enjoyable games. It’s not just about the element of randomness, but scale as well, which is what everybody’s grouching about.

That being said, I don’t think the same applies to BL keys and dye packs; those are items that can be (and presumably have been, else ANet would not continue feeding the model) paid for with real money yet frequently give nothing of value back. I can understand randomness in loot dropped by something the player was going to kill anyway, but in something they paid money for? That’s about as much a one-arm bandit as it could be without being literally depicted as a one-arm bandit.

Pandaman.4758:

That is true for in-game drops, though I would argue any tabletop game that asks players to roll a d100000 and only gives out loot on a 100000 would find itself being used as a coaster in other, more enjoyable games. It’s not just about the element of randomness, but scale as well, which is what everybody’s grouching about.

If the tabletop game consisted of hundreds of thousands of players sitting at the same table, trading with each other… yeah, scale.

Morinmeth.9823:

ZilentNight.5089:

John Smith.4610:

Fungalfoot.7213:

The reason why ANet won’t do anything about flippers hijacking markets is because it benefits them greatly to see these higher prices. Remember that gold as a currency is tied to gems which can be purchased for real money. They hope to drive new players into purchasing gold in order to catch up which is exactly why they keep on nerfing popular farm spots.

Unfortunately this short-sighted greed is having an extremely negative effect on the game as a whole. Short of getting extraordinarily lucky a new player will have no way to ever compete on the market. They’re strangling their own game trying to squeeze a few more dollars out of it.

I don’t agree. The best result for the game and therefor the best result for ArenaNet is for the markets to work as efficiently as possible (usually). Fortunately, the nature of the trading post provides a lot of natural force for markets to work efficiently. While nothing is 100% perfect, the large majority of every part of the game’s economy runs incredibly efficiently and we put a lot of effort into making sure that they remain that way.

Do you consider the precursor and Chaos of Lyssa market working “efficiently”?
I guess quite efficient for the flippers.

Add T6 mats in there too. Their prices are hilarious.

Then go farm T6 mats yourself. As somebody who does farm T6 mats now and then i say the prices are fine in relation to what i can earn with other things.

And if i see people say they can make 30-40g with running dungeons for 2 hours than they are still way too cheap when i make maybe 12-15g in the same time.

Lolindir.3518:

John Smith.4610:

Astralporing.1957:

Well, he doesn’t play the game, so he doesn’t see what is obvious to many.

My three level 80’s and Tequatl Greatsword disagree with your statement.

Gratz for being rng lucky, I guess.?

Do you think this is fun for the players? For example you talk about Tequatl, I’ve been killing that dragon for months everyday and I still haven’t got a single Hoard. I’ve killed the wurm around 80 times, haven’t got the Wurmslayer armor ( or the minipet..).

Seriously, I like this game but sometimes I don’t understand how you guys can’t see that rng is not fun, give us a token system for this kind of things that are even account bound (so it’s not like we’re going to make tons of money on it).

Going back to the Chaos of Lyssa, same thing… repeating the same bosses everyday to farm bags and to get absolutely NOTHING is not fun. And it’s for a recipe like other in the game, that are wort 3 or 4 gold. It’s not normal to pay 3k gold for it only for an obvious drop rate error.

Be honest for once Arenanet, don’t repeat the same error as the Final Rest.

Yeah, RNG has gotten really old. The same few people have all the luck and the rest of us get squat.

John Smith.4610:

Astralporing.1957:

Well, he doesn’t play the game, so he doesn’t see what is obvious to many.

My three level 80’s and Tequatl Greatsword disagree with your statement.

That really means nothing. You could have only killed Teq once and gotten lucky. Like Lolindir, I’ve killed Teq a lot of times and still have yet to get a Teq hoard. I haven’t killed Wurm too many times so I won’t comment on those lootz. This goes for the jetpack too. Some of us ran it multiple times a day trying for the jetpack and still never got it, while some did the dungeon once and got it only due to luck. RNG should only be for normal monster drops. Big exclusive stuff (like teq hoard, wurm stuff, temp dungeon rewards – ie jetpack) should be like SAB rewards, both as a tradeable drop (rares), or through token acquisition (non tradeable). It solves both sides, those who are unlucky get it through persistence and those that just want to buy it can.

skullmount.1758:

Yeah, RNG has gotten really old. The same few people have all the luck and the rest of us get squat.

Being lucky is hard work.

Three level 80s is a pretty serious commitment to the game. Good to see Anet playing their game which is what caught my interest here. If I had to guess I would guess 1000hours logged as a player. How do you kill that which has no life? Make love not GuildWars

mtpelion.4562:

skullmount.1758:

Yeah, RNG has gotten really old. The same few people have all the luck and the rest of us get squat.

Being lucky is hard work.

(btw anyone know how to put an attachment somewhere in the post instead of having it go to the bottom? (without putting on some other image site))

Like in the real world, people with the most money have the most power upon the market. So I guess we could say that the TP is working correctly.

tolunart.2095:

Pandaman.4758:

That is true for in-game drops, though I would argue any tabletop game that asks players to roll a d100000 and only gives out loot on a 100000 would find itself being used as a coaster in other, more enjoyable games. It’s not just about the element of randomness, but scale as well, which is what everybody’s grouching about.

If the tabletop game consisted of hundreds of thousands of players sitting at the same table, trading with each other… yeah, scale.

Think I missed the point, but how does having more players justify a borderline-punitive drop rate? Regardless of how many people are around you, it doesn’t change how you – as an individual player – would perceive a 1/20 chance versus a 1/100000 chance for a good reward.

Pandaman.4758:

Think I missed the point, but how does having more players justify a borderline-punitive drop rate? Regardless of how many people are around you, it doesn’t change how you – as an individual player – would perceive a 1/20 chance versus a 1/100000 chance for a good reward.

You want rare loot to be rare. If you have 4 people playing a game then 1/20 is rare.

If you have 1,000,000 people playing a game, 1/20 is no longer rare.

This is primarily due to the difference in samples. With 4 loot rolls in total on a 1/20 chance item, it most likely won’t drop. With 1,000,000 loot rolls in total on a 1/20 chance item, you’re going to have approximately 50,000 items dropping.

When there are five players, a 1/100,000 chance per hour of an item dropping means you’ll probably never see one in the game. When there are a million players, the same chance means there are 10 per hour dropping. With hundreds of precursors entering the game every day, it’s not a matter of whether you’ll even see one, it’s a matter of how to get one of the hundreds you know are in circulation.

Astralporing.1957:

Also, John: gratz on being lucky with Tequatl (never even seen a tequatl hoard myself). If you do play, however, then i don’t get why your posts seem to show complete lack of understanding of players psychology.

This. +111111111111