Guild Wars 2

And also hope they aren’t in any more updates after Scarlet Briar’s wrapped up. Or is it just me? I like Rox and Braham. A lot I think they’re fun, well written characters. Marjory and Kasmeer… to me are not. Shall we get opinions from everyone else as well civilly?

At first I didn’t like them. Marjory’s introduction was a little too gritty and cliche for my tastes, which set me against the character as a bit of a joke. I honestly didn’t think she’d be as much a part of the Living Story as she turned out to be. Over time though, I took more of an interest in her when she was developed and that introduction became nothing more than a bad first impression for me.

I felt the same about Kasmeer who just seemed to show up at the Toxic Tower without much explanation and came off as a Blonde Dim-Witted Bimbo there for eye candy. Boy did she ever prove that wasn’t true. She demonstrated a lot of weaknesses, but the strength to move past them. I’m still not entirely sold on her being smart enough to -be- a Mesmer, but she’s a solid character in her own right.

I do like Rox and Braham a bit more than those two, but they were introduced earlier and in a way that didn’t leave me with a bad first impression. Learning Braham was Eir’s son was a surprise and made me very interested in him, and Rox came off as this strong, capable Charr, an excellent example of female charr in general.

Marjory still feels like the weakest of the Biconics to me, although hanging around and listening to her dialogue in Lornar’s Pass and at the Lion’s Shadow Inn have made her more believable as a character.

Kasmeer had a good introduction, where she came off as a “pretty face, but there’s something more to her” in Southsun Cove. She then took a bit of a dive during the Queen’s Jubilee where she seemed to be shaping up as a stereotype, but she’s come more into her own in the recent chapters.

That’s fair and I can understand that to me I just really didn’t happen to like Kasmeers and Marjorys development… together. I won’t lie about it, it seems very ham fisted to me and kinda just shoved in to say HEY. HEY. WE GOT LESBIANS. But then again that’s also just how I feel, others may disagree with me. I didn’t initially like Braham but he really started to warm up to me and Rox? Always liked her a lot.

I also feel like the writing isn’t as good in the initial story was a lot better then the Living Story, kinda like these writers got lazier, and if I recall correctly it is different writers for this Living Story right? For the whole Scarlet Briar arc I mean.

I like Marjory and Kasmeer as individual characters. Especially Majory, she’s tied with Taimi for my 2nd favorite of the “main” LS characters (with Rox being #1). I enjoy her “noire style” mannerisms and her character design is nice.

I can’t say I’m overly fond of the two together, though. At least not in terms of the whole “relationship”. I’m not really a huge fan of romance in general, especially when its used constantly like it has been lately with Kasmeer and Marjory. Seems every conversation between the two is at least in some way related to it. Probably to make it seem more gradual and less forced, but whatever the case it gets rather tiresome to me. Hopefully now that they’ve made out they’ll stop pointing it out so much.

I did like the way the two interacted prior to the point where the relationship was being overly focused on. Like back in the camp during the Tower of Nightmares. Those conversations they had there were amusing, with just a hint of the romance. If they can get back to interactions like that it’ll be nice.

This. So much this. If I knew you in real life I’d buy you a burger and a beer. I don’t mind relationships myself but this one did feel forced.

I like Marjory and Kasmeer as individual characters. Especially Majory, she’s tied with Taimi for my 2nd favorite of the “main” LS characters (with Rox being #1). I enjoy her “noire style” mannerisms and her character design is nice.

I can’t say I’m overly fond of the two together, though. At least not in terms of the whole “relationship”. I’m not really a huge fan of romance in general, especially when its used constantly like it has been lately with Kasmeer and Marjory. Seems every conversation between the two is at least in some way related to it. Probably to make it seem more gradual and less forced, but whatever the case it gets rather tiresome to me. Hopefully now that they’ve made out they’ll stop pointing it out so much.

I did like the way the two interacted prior to the point where the relationship was being overly focused on. Like back in the camp during the Tower of Nightmares. Those conversations they had there were amusing, with just a hint of the romance. If they can get back to interactions like that it’ll be nice.

My response is this.

How am I meant to not be irritated with romantic cutscenes/dialogues being forced upon me when I have no connection with these characters?

The way this game is designed is in such a way that it’s nearly impossible for any of these NPC’s to hold any value to me. It doesn’t only apply to the LS either, it’s applicable in every single circumstance on this game including personal stories that feel as lively and exciting as my lectures at uni do, and ESPECIALLY the dungeon NPC’s with horrible AI that I have to suffer with.

Example: http://www.twitch.tv/purpleishawt/c/3857969

If only Varra Skylark was capable of reading and interpreting mapchat. If only. Oh, how I would have so much to say…

Kasmeer is fine but I feel like Marjory still needs a little work. I feel like I don’t know Marjory at all but I don’t hate her yet, she just needs more development.

I personally feel Braham and Rox are more boring. They don’t seem as fleshed out as Kasmeer and Marjory.

But it’s a pity that the story is focusing so much on their romance, without giving them a real character-arc.

i happen to like all of them they fleshed them out a bit and gave them personalities. at first i thought marjory was i know everything but i especially liked kasmeer at first she plays a ditsy blonde at first but they showed she has her quirks which is why i like her. rox also seemed to flesh out better as she went instead of doing something to please brimestone she learned to be herself, braham i think could still use a bit more char but i liked how they showed his impatience with scarlet it shows his youth in a way. if they could give majory a few more flaws i think id like them al equally

They tried to give Braham a bit more to do in Edge of the Mists, where he was interacting with Taimi. And that was nice. Although it was a bit of an odd pairing, since Taimi had only just been introduced. So I really didn’t see why Braham, who had been established months ago, was suddenly chasing after this new Asura character.

Apart from this superficial interaction, we really haven’t gotten to know Braham yet. But I suppose the same could be said about Marjory. I wish more of them had flaws though. It seems as if we only ever see all the characters at their best. That is, unless the character is meant for comic relief, like Lord Faren.

I save all my dislike for Taimi and Evon. One’s a naive child who is more intelligent than wise, the other is incredibly selfish . . . no matter where he started from, he’s now out for himself first unless he sees a way he can gain . . .

Oh, and Scarlet. But not for the character, for how she was handled early on. It was better handled in the Tower of Nightmares and forward but before that? Wow.

Kasmeer and Marjory register much better for me than, oh, Cynn/Mhenlo did back in the day. But they do not register as well as Keiran/Gwen or Koss/Melonni.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They tried to give Braham a bit more to do in Edge of the Mists, where he was interacting with Taimi. And that was nice. Although it was a bit of an odd pairing, since Taimi had only just been introduced. So I really didn’t see why Braham, who had been established months ago, was suddenly chasing after this new Asura character.

Because Logan put her in his care, firstly. Secondly? It’s in the culture. Wolf demands one care for all members of the pack, not just the ones you like. Braham follows Wolf.

I think they succeeded in making Kas a bit more interesting in this last instance. Jory still seems pretty one-dimensional to me. I don’t particularly dislike her. I just find her to be uninteresting.

It just feels like those characters got put in because of fan service.

Rytlock, Eir, Evon. I like those characters, not into Marjory of Kasmeer though.

I did like Taimi though. She is unique.

Braham seems too “squishy” to be a true male norn. But that’s just my opinion. And Rox just looks strange…

Just to add, I also like Caithe and the Faolin mix. Those were thought out and executed well imo.

I think my favorite female would probably be Countess Anise though. She’s mysterious, serious, and not sure how she will react. Cool character all round

I like Kasmeer and Marjory- I was interested in Kasmeer’s story since she showed up so spectacularly during South sun.
Marjory- I love her dry, sarcatic, flirty manner that hides her mind- she is also a real bad-kitten in a fight.
I have never liked Braham and Rox just doesn’t speak to me at all.
Braham pretty much proved to me during the last update that he should just keep his mouth shut
Taimi is too unknown to me to have any impact.

I do prefer this cast to Destiny’s Edge though- omg don’t get me started on that bunch of angsty teenagers- I would slap everyone of them silly if I could.

Except for Logan- I like Logan

Antara.3189:

Braham seems too “squishy” to be a true male norn. But that’s just my opinion.

Not only too squishy (he instantly broke his leg against Scarlet), but also too human. If you look at the way the Norn are presented in GW1’s Eye of the North, they seem far more unique and inhuman in their ways. But Braham walks and talks exactly like a human.

Morrigan.2809:

Marjory- I love her dry, sarcatic, flirty manner that hides her mind- she is also a real bad-kitten in a fight.

I agree, but that made it all the more out of character how she instantly got put out of action during that fight against Scarlet. That seemed to go way too easily, and it kind of undermines how I now see her character. She no longer seems quite so tough. It made her look quite fragile. I guess all the necromancer nerfs hit Marjory hard as well.

Morrigan.2809:

I do prefer this cast to Destiny’s Edge though- omg don’t get me started on that bunch of angsty teenagers- I would slap everyone of them silly if I could.

Except for Logan- I like Logan

I HATE Logan. I despise him. He is the absolute worst of the bunch. What a boring goody-two-shoes with his annoying teenage drama, and yet people look up to him, and I actually have to report for duty to this spineless shell of a man during the Personal Story.

I love them. Marjory, Kasmeer, Rox, Braham, Taimi, Heal-o-Tron… I want to see them all again.

I find Kas a little irritating but I actually like her more now than I did to start off with. I think Kas and Jory make a pretty good couple and complement each other well, and I have no issue with them having a relationship. Honestly, it would be kind of a weird world if so many people spent loads of time together and met others with common interests and didn’t form close relationships, romantic or platonic.

Marjory and Rox I liked from the beginning, and Braham and Taimi are ok – need to see a bit more of Taimi, and see if she comes round to being a bit more mature and less amoral.

Heal-o-tron is, of course, delightful.

In other words… ArenaNet still writes like ArenaNet.

I also felt the relationship was forced; like the writers didn’t have anything else to make the story interesting. I thought their relationship was more intriguing when it wasn’t clear whether or not they were lovers.

Finnway.2183:

In other words… ArenaNet still writes like ArenaNet.

I also felt the relationship was forced; like the writers didn’t have anything else to make the story interesting. I thought their relationship was more intriguing when it wasn’t clear whether or not they were lovers.

I’d argue that the writing clearly has improved a lot. But I sadly also agree that not making their relationship quite so explicit, made them better characters for it. They did not need to show them kissing.

I feel like the potential for the development of their relationship in the story was slightly undermined by instantly cutting to the kiss. Maybe they should have held back, from a story telling point of view.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But they do not register as well as Keiran/Gwen or Koss/Melonni.

Kerian/Gwen made absolutely no sense to me. They fight constantly, spend no time together (to the point of actively avoiding each other’s company), and then suddenly they’re getting married.

And I still want Rox and Braham to be a couple.

Stormy Dragon.9210:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But they do not register as well as Keiran/Gwen or Koss/Melonni.

Kerian/Gwen made absolutely no sense to me. They fight constantly, spend no time together (to the point of actively avoiding each other’s company), and then suddenly they’re getting married..

They made sense, but you didn’t pay attention that closely. Here’s a rundown:

First time we notice is when Lieutenant Thackeray wants to do something for Gwen for Wintersday and comes up with the idea of a charm necklace. Then he takes it a step further with some norn work to get it blessed in a way. After the initial shock and reaction Gwen finally defrosts a little . . . it’s still not love since Keiran still has more of a crush than anything.

Then he tries to get closer with a picnic (by the way, some of the funniest lines there from “reject” items) and Gwen blows him off at the last minute . . . and he blows up over her doing it yet again when there’s little reason they can’t relax. (Note: Gwen is the one keeping them from spending time together on the basis she has too much to do.) After that the War in Kryta starts and he’s still sore about it and figures she’s not interested so get over it . . . only for her to act shocked he’s volunteering to leave.

Keiran doesn’t really start changing his mind until he’s had time to think about it and she keeps coming back to mind. The rest of the Ebon Falcons comment on it sometimes. It’s interactions with Miku and his time having to be on the run alone (Hearts of the North) which mature and temper him a bit to push the young man into something more respectable. Gwen getting to see this through the scrying pool is what changes her mind on it.

So they’re not exactly badly developed. Really I just wonder if on their honeymoon Gwen wasn’t staying up wondering if she should be skinning charr rather than relaxing.

I did like them at first, but if I see characters inserted into some type of media propaganda then I reject them immediately. I don’t know if that was the writer/game intention cause I can’t read minds; but I see Braham, Kasmeer and Marjory being representatives of a particular way of thinking that is not universal/eternal but is presented as such.

I like the characters, I just don’t understand Marjory’s attraction to Kasmeer. I would think she’d find her annoying.

Personally, I dislike all the characters besides Taimi…and maybe Rox. The others are way too cheesy and boring.

Also, I feel like the trend of homosexual hero-couples and overuse of girl-power is a bit awkward in an “epic mmo,” and is more-or-less a way for Arena Net to get away with mediocre-quality writing and have less of a negative reaction to it.

JGBarbarian.3579:

I did like them at first, but if I see characters inserted into some type of media propaganda then I reject them immediately. I don’t know if that was the writer/game intention cause I can’t read minds; but I see Braham, Kasmeer and Marjory being representatives of a particular way of thinking that is not universal/eternal but is presented as such.

What does Braham represent to you, out of curiosity? I’m struggling to think of anything potentially controversial about his characterisation.

I don’t think Kas/Jory is propaganda, either, for what it’s worth, I think they just are what they are. Certainly, where I live, and among my fairly ordinary circles, their relationship would not really raise any eyebrows.

I dislike them all. Can we get characters that have depth?

I think the reason why many dislike these two characters is not because their character designs are bad; in fact they are quite unique characters in the gaming industry which proudly tries to break away from the bigotry seen in other media (phobia on LGBT, Asian stereotyping, etc.)

HOWEVER, these two characters have one of the worst form of character development seen amongst the LS characters (2nd only to Taimi and Scarlet). The reasons behind “why” and “who” they are largely unknown/full of plotholes due to rushed writing (unsurprisingly since they came later than Rox and Braham).

For example, why do they constantly participate in the recent LS events? At Dragon Bash and Aetherpath, at least they were paid to investigate and such, but when ToN, Marrionette, etc. the “why” they were there was just abandoned.

They either simply were there (heroes just for the sake of being heroes with nonsensical/bad reasons such as being asked by " The Great and Gorgeous Mesmer Collective," which were never mentioned in the past) or joined in to help your character as friends. With at least Rox and Braham, you got real and mentioned reasons as to why they were in certain events (asked by Ritlock to represent him during QP, trying to join Ritlock’s warband, making his legend, getting back for what happened in Cragstead, etc.).

The “who” aspect also suffers heavily; the romance between Jory and Kas was only rushed in the last few LS updates and makes the whole relationship seem forced or shoehorned.

TLDR
Jory and Kasmeer’s character designs are good, but their development is extremely weak due to their later introduction to the LS as well as the nature of LS overall.

EDIT:
After reading all the past posts before mine, majority of them are questioning Jory&Kas’s development, which probably is the primary reason why these two characters are “unliked.”

Electro.4173:

I like Marjory and Kasmeer as individual characters. Especially Majory, she’s tied with Taimi for my 2nd favorite of the “main” LS characters (with Rox being #1). I enjoy her “noire style” mannerisms and her character design is nice.

I can’t say I’m overly fond of the two together, though. At least not in terms of the whole “relationship”. I’m not really a huge fan of romance in general, especially when its used constantly like it has been lately with Kasmeer and Marjory. Seems every conversation between the two is at least in some way related to it.

Yup. It’s so forced, out of place & in your face I can’t see how someone would watch it without feeling their intelligence insulted, much less actually liking it.

LokikS.9875:

HEY. HEY. WE GOT LESBIANS.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the Guild Wars 2 living story abridged edition.

(Also, I like Braham and Rox more. Just my $0.02 on the matter. Taimi is awesome, too. Kas and Jory seem really shoehorned.)

LokikS.9875:

And also hope they aren’t in any more updates after Scarlet Briar’s wrapped up. Or is it just me? I like Rox and Braham. A lot I think they’re fun, well written characters. Marjory and Kasmeer… to me are not. Shall we get opinions from everyone else as well civilly?

I am with you mate, i dislike them both greatly, so much screen time. Marj should have been a man, and kasmeer is generic.

I have to admit though, I am happy with the way they made marj’s armor design at the very least because the gem store armor for human male characters looks great, the top for men looks like a fabulous tank top with feathers, a welcome change for mesmers.

I also agree with the braham and rox thing, they’re both likable and fun, though braham needs to stop it with the whole mommy issues thing.

Arena Net writers should take a note from Infamous Second Son (for the PS4) writers, they’re also a seattle based game developer company just like Arena Net, Delsin the main protagonist from that game is a great example of how a character should be.

Laurelinde.4395:

JGBarbarian.3579:

I did like them at first, but if I see characters inserted into some type of media propaganda then I reject them immediately. I don’t know if that was the writer/game intention cause I can’t read minds; but I see Braham, Kasmeer and Marjory being representatives of a particular way of thinking that is not universal/eternal but is presented as such.

What does Braham represent to you, out of curiosity? I’m struggling to think of anything potentially controversial about his characterisation.

I don’t think Kas/Jory is propaganda, either, for what it’s worth, I think they just are what they are. Certainly, where I live, and among my fairly ordinary circles, their relationship would not really raise any eyebrows.

I will try to be more clear. The way of thinking of your “ordinary circles” is just one among many, that is a reality and no matter how hard you try you can’t force the whole world to think the way you do.
My criticism to the characters is this: they represent 1 way of thinking disregarding many other.
Possible problems: the game will sell well only where that particular way of thinking exists or it will alienate a part of its costumers.
Sorry I can’t be more clear, english is my forth language.

I don’t hate any of the character on their own. However I dislike the disjointed roller coaster in game writing for all of them. Some of the more decent work is being “written outside of the game,” when it comes to their actual character depth. It’s irritating to say the least. Especially when the story is presented way outside the official site like through facebook or flickr.

I bet people would have liked Scarlet Briar more if she was not thrown at us when she was first introduced. Who could forget the first time she got away from us was by riding out of the queen’s gauntlet into clear sky above via explosives (wile-e coyote style). Her teleporting out I could buy, but doing what she did then I could not. Not to mention all the time the mismatched alliances just popped in out of nowhere. To which their explination is simply scarlet threw them into a blender and told them to “go at it.” It’s still a bit of pill to swallow even with the Edge of the Mists story content and Angel Mccoy forum post (outside of the game) explanations. Only to have all of the resolution stuff shoved in till the very end. Which left many plot holes here and there within the game.

If this was suppose to show progression of their story telling antics from the personal story to the living story, then I could defiantly not see the improvement. I give credit to them fixing some mechanical issues for the living story content, but Scarlet’s narrative itself was way too disorganized. I am still hoping they can make another compelling in game narrative like (or better then) Guild Wars: Nightfall in the near future. At least Varesh Ossa felt more grounded in narrative logic then Scarlet Briar did. Heck even Shiro (with the bad voice acting) was interesting to think about then Scarlet story arc. Hopefully Jeff Grubb will be the writing lead for Season 2.

I don’t mind homosexual relationships, but the romance feels rushed. Also, I just don’t care much about the characters.

I didn’t create them, I didn’t pick their build, I don’t control them at all. My interaction with them is minimal beyond forced cutscenes and dialogue. You could swap them out with randomly generated warrior/ranger/mesmer/necro and I’d be fine with it.

In an RPG where I control multiple characters, even if I don’t really care for a character, there is still some sense of personal attachment from the process of using the character, leveling it, developing its build. Without that, if I don’t have an affinity for a particular character, there can only be indifference at best.

The characters are totally external to me, I have no attachment to them.

I actually care more about the charr NPCs in the Ascalon fractal… they don’t feel so arbitrarily imposed on me, and they’re quite helpful.

Sometimes it feels like these NPCs exist in their own little world, separate from the human players. It’s like the narrative is all about the NPCs, with the player being a mere generic thug, hired to do the physical work. But in the actual gameplay, these NPCs have no role at all.

Take the Scarlet’s End instance for example.

You could take the player character out of the initial scene completely and it’d be the same, the player has no role at all, it’s all about the NPCs.

But in the previous big zerg fights, these NPCs had barely any role. Why do they show up now, looking so important? Where’d the big zerg, my real comrades, go?

My player avatar knows how I feel about Braham and Marjory. When they get injured, my character doesn’t even turn around to look at them in the cutscene.

As characters in isolation, I think the living story NPCs are alright, but they shouldn’t be the centerpiece NPCs. They seem so weak, expendable, they’re not very epic. They’re unique, but not irreplaceable. My dissatisfaction with their unnatural prominence in the story outweighs any charm the characters have.

They’d be more appropriate in low-level starting content, or as side characters, not as the main characters in a big story arc.

voidwater.2064:

Sometimes it feels like these NPCs exist in their own little world, separate from the human players doing all the work, the actual hero stuff.

The characters are totally external to me, I have no attachment to them.

For once I would like to see some cutscenes where it is the player’s main character who is involved with the action. I don’t want to be some zombie in the background, who is not responding to anything that is happening in a cutscene.

Worse, I dislike not participating in cutscenes at all. Could these be made more dynamic? Like, instead of Braham getting injured, and Rox taking care of him, couldn’t it be the players themselves that are involved? When Marjory attacks Scarlet, why isn’t it the player character instead? But no, we’re just standing there watching it happen.

I want the writers to involve us more. I don’t know if that’s technically feasible, but I’d like to see them try.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

voidwater.2064:

Sometimes it feels like these NPCs exist in their own little world, separate from the human players doing all the work, the actual hero stuff.

The characters are totally external to me, I have no attachment to them.

For once I would like to see some cutscenes where it is the player’s main character who is involved with the action. I don’t want to be some zombie in the background, who is not responding to anything that is happening in a cutscene.

Worse, I dislike not participating in cutscenes at all. Could these be made more dynamic? Like, instead of Braham getting injured, and Rox taking care of him, couldn’t it be the players themselves that are involved? When Marjory attacks Scarlet, why isn’t it the player character instead? But no, we’re just standing there watching it happen.

I want the writers to involve us more. I don’t know if that’s technically feasible, but I’d like to see them try.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. It reminds me of a game called White Knight Chronicles for the PS3, in that game as the story played on, you just kind stood there while the main cast had the unique animations, action and dialogue.

Only thing is, this game “we” the player play a much (or should) larger role in the grand scheme of things, while in the WKC games, we are more of a sidekick to the main cast.

The Sidekick Syndrome is strong in this game, when it shouldn’t. It is even more insulting when we are side kicks to horribly written characters like the asian goth lady and the rich girl.

JGBarbarian.3579:

Laurelinde.4395:

JGBarbarian.3579:

I did like them at first, but if I see characters inserted into some type of media propaganda then I reject them immediately. I don’t know if that was the writer/game intention cause I can’t read minds; but I see Braham, Kasmeer and Marjory being representatives of a particular way of thinking that is not universal/eternal but is presented as such.

What does Braham represent to you, out of curiosity? I’m struggling to think of anything potentially controversial about his characterisation.

I don’t think Kas/Jory is propaganda, either, for what it’s worth, I think they just are what they are. Certainly, where I live, and among my fairly ordinary circles, their relationship would not really raise any eyebrows.

I will try to be more clear. The way of thinking of your “ordinary circles” is just one among many, that is a reality and no matter how hard you try you can’t force the whole world to think the way you do.
My criticism to the characters is this: they represent 1 way of thinking disregarding many other.
Possible problems: the game will sell well only where that particular way of thinking exists or it will alienate a part of its costumers.
Sorry I can’t be more clear, english is my forth language.

Oh believe me, I am very, very aware that homosexuality is not accepted in all places. My parents would find Kas/Jory disgusting and immoral. My point was that so many people are fixating on the Kas/Jory relationship as being ‘controversial’ and ‘propaganda’, when in other places and cultures, it simply isn’t: there is nothing shocking or political about their relationship.

Also, I notice you did not respond to my question about Braham. What do you find problematic about him? Braham is straight, as far as I am aware.

Leshain.6720:

Marj should have been a man, and kasmeer is generic.

Why should Marjory have been a man?

I like Marjory, but I feel she should’ve been more about necromancy and Dirty Harry than romances.

And I dislike Kasmeer, she should has been put into the samebucket as Faren.
Funny, pretty characters designed without any real story.
Atm, she’s just here because her pixels are meant to be “hot” and because she’s a naked lesbian. Nothing really interesting or impressive.

And I like Rox, Braham less but still. Frostbite <3

Laurelinde.4395:

JGBarbarian.3579:

Laurelinde.4395:

JGBarbarian.3579:

I did like them at first, but if I see characters inserted into some type of media propaganda then I reject them immediately. I don’t know if that was the writer/game intention cause I can’t read minds; but I see Braham, Kasmeer and Marjory being representatives of a particular way of thinking that is not universal/eternal but is presented as such.

What does Braham represent to you, out of curiosity? I’m struggling to think of anything potentially controversial about his characterisation.

I don’t think Kas/Jory is propaganda, either, for what it’s worth, I think they just are what they are. Certainly, where I live, and among my fairly ordinary circles, their relationship would not really raise any eyebrows.

I will try to be more clear. The way of thinking of your “ordinary circles” is just one among many, that is a reality and no matter how hard you try you can’t force the whole world to think the way you do.
My criticism to the characters is this: they represent 1 way of thinking disregarding many other.
Possible problems: the game will sell well only where that particular way of thinking exists or it will alienate a part of its costumers.
Sorry I can’t be more clear, english is my forth language.

Oh believe me, I am very, very aware that homosexuality is not accepted in all places. My parents would find Kas/Jory disgusting and immoral. My point was that so many people are fixating on the Kas/Jory relationship as being ‘controversial’ and ‘propaganda’, when in other places and cultures, it simply isn’t: there is nothing shocking or political about their relationship.

Also, I notice you did not respond to my question about Braham. What do you find problematic about him? Braham is straight, as far as I am aware.

I see Kas and Jory as propaganda/comercial story because various reasons (as I said on the fist post it is just a feeling, I don’t claim to know what is on the devs mind):
1 – It is not the first gay relationship, it is like the third or more. I have seen more gay romances than straight romances in the game. If I am not mistaken gay people is 10% of the population, but in this game they are overepresented in regarding to that number. There is even a whole species of neuter beigns where heterosexual relations have no difference from homosexual relations.
2 – It is the most important romance in the game. Imagine if they are a girl’s idols, what does she see? Lesbian idols.
3 – Pay attention when the game is published, where, and most importantly check out media and political trends. Then compare to the game.

Final notes: When I found about sylvaris and the gay relation of Caithe/Faolain or the two in the personal story I thought it was cool to be inclusive and give gay people a place in Tyria. I don’t hate gays, I hate propaganda, I hate when the media tries to subtle impose a way of thinking into the people, I hate it even more when that way of thinking is indeed controversial on the world, and I hate it even more when it is a card used by political parties. Can’t talk about Braham, you will have to realize for yourself.

JGBarbarian.3579:

I see Kas and Jory as propaganda/comercial story because various reasons (as I said on the fist post it is just a feeling, I don’t claim to know what is on the devs mind):
1 – It is not the first gay relationship, it is like the third or more.

Why, it’s almost like the writers consider same-sex relationships to be normal. Those monsters!

JGBarbarian.3579:

I have seen more gay romances than straight romances in the game.

If you ignore the gazillion other heterosexual relationships in the game.

JGBarbarian.3579:

There is even a whole species of neuter beigns where heterosexual relations have no difference from homosexual relations.

Gender neutral beings! What an abomination.

JGBarbarian.3579:

2 – It is the most important romance in the game. Imagine if they are a girl’s idols, what does she see? Lesbian idols.

Surely the downfall of modern society. Next thing you know, girls will see this and… and… ehhh… remind me again, what would they do exactly?

JGBarbarian.3579:

Final notes: When I found about sylvaris and the gay relation of Caithe/Faolain or the two in the personal story I thought it was cool to be inclusive and give gay people a place in Tyria.

Technically those two are not gay. They are Sylvari.

JGBarbarian.3579:

Can’t talk about Braham, you will have to realize for yourself.

Braham has a secret agenda! I knew it! Never trust a Norn!

On topic, I like Jory/Kas as individuals as well, but as a couple, they could have done it better. They could have been more stoic, as Rox and Braham are, but then again, Kas does wear her heart on her sleeve.

The fact that they are women doesn’t make any difference to me at all. I would feel the same way if it were male/male, male/female, or quaggan/centaur.

As far as having a lifestyle forced upon me? No. I have more issues with people who decry something like this and then hypocritically say that they’re not forcing their beliefs upon me (us.)

I really like them on the whole. Individually they’re interesting characters (the concept of a necromancer detective is pretty darn amusing and a charming way to bring “noir” into Tyria while Kasmeer was a fun snarky noble even as early as Southsun), but it’s been fun to see them as a couple too, and they don’t always do things together either (the Marionette attack).

Implicit in statements like “I’m not very strict about those scenes or such, but I think ANet should not put it in main story. Keeping it for the interested is some form of questions toNPC is very okay though” is, whether intentional or not, the idea that “this shouldn’t be in the main story but if there were relationships catering to my orientation then those are acceptable by default.”

Unless you’re against romance period, which is fine and I respect that if so, but that wasn’t the impression I got.

Having a same-sex couple isn’t necessarily infringing on your preferences any more than having straight couples infringes on mine. It’s kind of the luxury of being the default choice; it’s noteworthy and off-putting to you if our orientation is in but it’s just the way things work normally if yours is. Your presence only gets questioned if you’re not the norm. :P

Now, mind you, I definitely don’t think every appearance has to focus on them being a couple though; but this was the courtship phase and it was plenty cute. So I’m pretty darn happy with it working out. ^^;

My two cents, any way, and I definitely respect your preferences.

Rym.1469:

I’m not interested in their preferences, they’re not in mine. They don’t make love in front of us, because who cares? Both of us know our culture and traditions, know how we were raised by parents.
Back to my point. If you’re homosexual, why do you bother informing whole world about that? What’s special in it?
I tolerate homosexuals and have nothing against them, but I won’t stand their preferences being promoted as “cool”. It’s not needed.

Please drop the “i have gay friends” preface. For your problem with the existance of a positive, visible lesbian relationship i’ll qoute mr. David Gaider, senior writer from Bioware who got to answer a few eerilly similar questions on his tumblr:

“It’s at those points I have to remind myself of the truth: there are people out there for whom the presence of any gay content will automatically render it “the gay game”. The presence of two bisexual male followers in Dragon Age 2, only one of whom made advances on a male player without first being flirted with, means “every man in Thedas is gay and wants my man-meat”. These are the same people for whom the mere existence of a gay character, or a plot that deals with gay subject matter, really anything that forces them to acknowledge that homosexuality so much as exists, is going to be a personal insult. I remind myself that it’s not that much to include, and really it’s very little in comparison to the entire rest of the game…and thus, considering what it means to those fans who receive that validation almost nowhere else, it’s not too much to demand a bit of tolerance and compassion from the portion of the audience for whom this content is not even intended.”

“thank you for letting me know how affecting it was for you to have a game where you could be yourself. We make roleplaying games, which means that the character you play doesn’t have to be yourself, but I believe there’s an element where having a game acknowledge that you exist can be validating in a way most people never consider—no doubt because they have no need for validation, and thus no knowledge as to what the lack of it can do to someone”

As for real life, representation matters because in much of the rest of the world being LGBT is a big problem. Because in many parts of the world being LGBT can get you discriminated in the most horiffic ways with no safety blanket in sight. Because by coming out, you become visible, you fight against the dehumanization of the bigotry, you put a face on the discrimination perpetuated, a real face that can be recognized, understood and simpathized with, instead of treated like a difference of opinions or a simple political debate. You don’t allow the harm to be sweeped under the rug.

Also not being tolerat of bigotry is not intolerance (aimed at the rest of the thread). I’m really sorry but i will not be tolerant to “views” and “opinions” that validate discrimination on basis of religion, ethnicity, race, sexuality or gender representaion.

AlexEBT.7240:

Also not being tolerant of bigotry is not intolerance (aimed at the rest of the thread). I’m really sorry but i will not be tolerant to “views” and “opinions” that validate discrimination on basis of religion, ethnicity, race, sexuality or gender representation.

Quoted for truth.

JGBarbarian.3579:

I don’t hate gays, I hate propaganda, I hate when the media tries to subtle impose a way of thinking into the people, I hate it even more when that way of thinking is indeed controversial on the world, and I hate it even more when it is a card used by political parties. Can’t talk about Braham, you will have to realize for yourself.

How about this, then: if games and other media only depict straight people and men, that is also trying to subtly impose a way of thinking on people; namely, that there is a ‘normal’ and ‘acceptable’ kind of person, and that anyone different to this via gender, orientation, race, etc. is weird, is lesser, is wrong, is somehow that little bit less human than the ‘default’. Maintaining the status quo is no less political than change; it is simply more familiar.

For Braham…would I be correct in thinking your problem is to do with his parentage, and the fact he is bi-racial? Apologies if this is wrong, I’m afraid my mind-reading powers have never been very good.

I fail to see how tolerance, open mind and acceptance should be questioned at all.

Guys, can we please go back to discussing as to why these two characters are dislikable/bland? Before statements like “If only Jory were a man” or “I hate LGBT content being milled out more than heterosexual content” were made, this thread was civil with its discussion, as what the OP wanted it to be.