Guild Wars 2

So i logged in to finish my living story today to find out that the event is over and i’m screwed. I had no idea there was a time frame on this until after the fact. What the heck Anet? Some warning would have been nice. All i had to do to complete the event was Avenger of the Dispossessed and now after all the bother of doing all the activities i’m locked out at the finish line. I could have and would have finished it up if i’d realized i only had a day left, but not knowing the end was upon us, i chose to help a friend level instead. This makes me never want to even bother with live events. Gob said it best; “Come on!”

And by the way, i did get the bonfire achievement…just missing Avenger of the Dispossessed, so i can’t complete the story.

Same here! I cannot finish the last achievement!!! Where is the bonfire???

I am stuck at 95% as well and dates have not been conveyed to people well at all.

“Living Story” was sold as an on-going continous event. That made me think that this is something we were supposed to be able to go back to and finish, ESPECIALLY after the whole Karka event debacle. Obviously that isn’t the case. Neither it is a Living story (because it was killed abruptly) nor were the dates conveyed well to the general populace.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Put-the-F-F-Bonfires-Back-In/first#post2034624

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Flame-and-Frost-A-Rallying-Flame-Bonfire-Merged/page/3#post2034734

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Bonfire-for-flame-and-frost/first#post2033555

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/flameandfrost/A-Guide-to-Flame-Frost-Retribution/first#post2018137

Yes bonfire is up. Got it. Doesn’t fix my problem.

Sativor.9514:

Yes bonfire is up. Got it. Doesn’t fix my problem.

You had a month in advance to read the info about it, 2 weeks to do the dungeon parts of it, and now an extended epilogue. If you want to follow living story, you have to keep up on whats going on by reading the updates and info. Otherwise you miss out and this happens.

April 30th, 14:35
“The Molten Facility dungeon will be available until Sunday, May 12^^at 12:00pm Pacific, when the entire Flame and Frost saga will progress to an epilogue. At this point, players will no longer be able to earn achievements associated with the previous chapters of Flame and Frost, nor will they be able to earn the achievement Rage against the War Machine.
The Flame and Frost epilogue will be active from Sunday, May 12 at 12:00pm Pacific until Thursday May 16 at 12:00am Pacific the release of the Secret of Southsun on Tuesday May 14. The epilogue will mostly consist of conversations and story elements; there are no exclusive rewards to be given at this time.”

“Update: You will be able to complete the Secret Contact achievement during the epilogue to make up for the time it was not working previously.”

The problem with your explanation is that not everyone, including myself, check the web site or the forums. The time should have been shown on the F&F event IN GAME. It should have been made more clear as a lot of players missed out and are very frustrated.

The bottom part of this news post STILL shows the end time of Thursday May 16 at 12:00 pacific. But of course there is no bonfire, so I can’t complete my storyline. Since I work for a living, and can only play in the evenings, it’s frustrating to not be able to complete an achievement because of an ANet choice to remove several days from what should be the allotted time. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/a-guide-to-flame-frost-retribution/

Sativor.9514:

The problem with your explanation is that not everyone, including myself, check the web site or the forums. The time should have been shown on the F&F event IN GAME. It should have been made more clear as a lot of players missed out and are very frustrated.

I agree, there should have been an inconveniantly giant, unremovable entry at the right border of the UI that constantly showed remaining time. No wait, we had that but it was so tiny and unobtrusive that noone saw it.
So how about a popup that comes up every time I change map and can’t be closed for 10 sec to ensure I read it every time? Surely, that wouldn’t create any backlash =)

Well, I care about achievements and completion, and I do go out of my way to know the deadlines. It just feels natural to me, I don’t want to take any risks. I don’t really understand how somebody who cares about achievements wouldn’t take the 90 seconds to google this. (I’m not saying you’re doing it wrong, I’m just not following.)

But for what it’s worth: I do agree though that it would be nice to see this sort of information in game. No, it doesn’t have to be an annoying pop-up.

The orange living story reminder in the top right corner is already there, deadlines could be incorporated in the text there.
Alternatively, the in-character message that all players get at the beginning of a living story arc could have this information. (There will still be players who don’t read these, but I guess that’s really their own fault then.)

I completed everything and I’m often reading the forums – especially on bigger updates I read the patch notes and discussions.

But I agree…

they have this annoying UI info about the Living Story you can’t disable… and if they force us to display that annoying UI info(I already have a lot of other info there about renown hearts, events and personal story, if I’m playing on an alt that has not completed all hearts and stuff)… they could at least display some date or ask to read the forums to get people to inform themselves.

Or write it in the mail you usually get sent.

Edit: And yes… orange bar is only a timer until the next part of the story starts(in this case the victory bonfires). Does not automatically say(if you don’t know it from other info already) that other stuff will be removed after that.

I mean they also did not remove every month the stuff from the past months… they always added and let past stuff remain until end of the dungeon part.

I want to agree with Luthan that having the Living Story forced in your UI, edges you to play the content even if you are not an every day player, leaving more gripe for those people who do not have the time to complete in the alotted time.

There should be an option to remove living story UI incase you do not want to participate. They also send you mail so you would know if there is a new live story running (that is if you check your mail)

It’s pretty clear to me that no amount of information overload is going to help some players. During every stage of F&F, I still saw lots of players asking what F&F was and where it was taking place.
Some players just don’t visit the official site, browse the forums or wiki, read patch notes, open ingame mail, or look at their UI.

Yep..some of us just want to play the game and not really into studying the game or turning our hobby into our top priority. Simplicity is a good thing when it comes to a pastime. The game is what we unwind with after the priorities are completed.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

I do go out of my way to know the deadlines. It just feels natural to me, I don’t want to take any risks.

Just because you’ve normalized the dysfunction doesn’t mean that the problem no longer exists. The fact remains that you shouldn’t have to do that.

Did you read the rest of my post?

kokocabana.8153:

It’s pretty clear to me that no amount of information overload is going to help some players. During every stage of F&F, I still saw lots of players asking what F&F was and where it was taking place.
Some players just don’t visit the official site, browse the forums or wiki, read patch notes, open ingame mail, or look at their UI.

IF you where solely to use the in game information you would find the amount of information disturbingly small.

Warruz.8096:

kokocabana.8153:

It’s pretty clear to me that no amount of information overload is going to help some players. During every stage of F&F, I still saw lots of players asking what F&F was and where it was taking place.
Some players just don’t visit the official site, browse the forums or wiki, read patch notes, open ingame mail, or look at their UI.

IF you where solely to use the in game information you would find the amount of information disturbingly small.

If you’re playing the game off and on and not paying attention to anything except ingame info then this game is not a priority to you. It would mean you’re not looking outside of the game to read up on news, patch notes, or class builds. You are not investing any personal effort in this game and are just playing for fun and to kill time. Events that you miss should not be upsetting you because it shouldn’t be important to you.

If you are upset that you missed out on an event, then this game is a priority. You would not be relying on purely ingame info.

Koko, you’re obviously missing the point. More in-game info is clearly needed as the timing was unknown to a large number of players. You shouldn’t have to seek basic info outside of the game. And just because a player doesn’t check the site or forums on a daily basis does not make them any less of a player. I in fact did check outside the game for more info and still didn’t see any mention of an end time for the event.

I’m just gonna leave this here:
http://xkcd.com/293/

So does anyone know if they ever re-activated the bonfires or whatever so we can finally finish this? and if they did are they marked on the map? If not , where the puppy are they in Lion’s?

I don’t know if the bonfires are still there, but they are at the refugee camp on the beach.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Farshore_Ward

Yes they do need better notification on when something ends most sites had the 16th as the last day, did not complete the story arc because Rox would not spawn in the jail for me, do not think Ill do the next one just a waste of time

kokocabana.8153:

Warruz.8096:

kokocabana.8153:

It’s pretty clear to me that no amount of information overload is going to help some players. During every stage of F&F, I still saw lots of players asking what F&F was and where it was taking place.
Some players just don’t visit the official site, browse the forums or wiki, read patch notes, open ingame mail, or look at their UI.

IF you where solely to use the in game information you would find the amount of information disturbingly small.

If you’re playing the game off and on and not paying attention to anything except ingame info then this game is not a priority to you. It would mean you’re not looking outside of the game to read up on news, patch notes, or class builds. You are not investing any personal effort in this game and are just playing for fun and to kill time. Events that you miss should not be upsetting you because it shouldn’t be important to you.

If you are upset that you missed out on an event, then this game is a priority. You would not be relying on purely ingame info.

i never knew my options where black and white

This games suffers majorly from having to many things outside the game(see LFG, Living Story, WvW rankings, Spvp Leaderboards). I dont remember exactly the quote but i remember blizzard saying something aking to “its bad game design to have players go outside of the game for information” when they where adding the dungeon journal . I would also subscribe to this logic as it makes the most sense, when living story came around i learned the most about it out of game (not even when doing it), that terrible for something that should be telling a story in game. The little extra backstory for living story events on the website? Why are they on the website, they should be in game.

You get links to all these news entries with dates and deadlines while logging in. Maybe you should not use the auto-login that takes you directly to character select if you dont want to bother about opening the websiteto look it up on your own.

Imo A.net learned from their timing and deadline mistakes and very clearly made durations and time limits on the different chapters known. If it wasnt for the mistake with the date for bonfire I’d call their announcements flawless. That mistake has been corrected and the resulting issues resolved by re-adding the bonfire for well over a week, longer then it was supposed to run initially.

If you can play video games and use the internet you really are old enough to look such things up on your own if you care about them. Handholding only goes so far. And if you dont care enough then why make a post? It’s gone so /shrug and move on, who cares.

So it really is black and white, you are aware you are dealing with temporary content and care for it, look it up. Or you dont care for it and consequently dont look it up, then dont whine about missing the deadline.

Hey all,

I agree that because not everyone can play GW2 at inconvenient times due to work, family, real life or such and not everyone uses the forums, website, twitter, facebook or such and not everyone is savvy about such things then in game information about ‘important’ events with a time limit to complete would be useful and should be implemented.

However, there are undoubtedly times where circumstance plays a hand in the inability for some players to complete a time limited event or story line / arc.

In my case, for ‘Living Story’, I find myself with two seemingly in-completable components: ‘rage against the war machine’ and ‘avenger of the dispossessed’.

I accept my part in the lack of ability to complete the components! For the last few weeks I have had very limited access to my main PC and hence I have had very little access to GW2 (in game) – this is due to redecoration of the room that has my main PC in it. So! Yes, I am to blame in a way for not being in game to complete those parts of the living story.

There are three things I’d like to suggest regarding the (or any) living story at this point;

1, Do not aggravate fans of the game / customers by calling something a living story then abruptly kill the story and make it no longer a living story! Caveat lector: please understand that this is bias on the part of people now unable to finish the living story and I accept my part in my let down over this matter!

2, If someone has not been able to complete the achievements of a story line / arc due to not being able to play and complete before a closing date then please remove that achievement from their in game achievement log or mark it as missed in some way. This is because people tend to get angry / frustrated if they are running around trying to complete an achievement listed in the log where the achievement is active in the log but inactive in the game and therefore in-completable with no indication in game of that fact.

3. STOP putting time limits on achievements! Witness the events to date where people have ‘gone ape’ on these very forums due to not being able to complete something due to a date / time limit. I understand that having a time limited event or story arc can add a kind of reality to the game and there are many other reasons for time limiting. However, all Anet seems to be doing with time limited events is segregating the player base into those who have done / are able to do the events and those who have not / cannot.

I’m no expert and do not pretend to have all the answers (or even all the questions) but it seems obvious to me that angry fans / customers are not likely to praise GW2 or spend time or money on it!

Edit: BTW – if there is still a way to complete ‘rage against the war machine’ and ‘avenger of the dispossessed’ I’d by happy to find out how!!

UKNightWatch.5742:

in game information about ‘important’ events with a time limit to complete would be useful and should be implemented.

Again, there was an ingame UI message that informed users about remaining time.
The nature of temporary content has been discussed in other threads, the short version is: Users asked for it, got what they asked for and are happy, other users complain because you can’t please everybody.
The living story content is just a small part of the world and more of a temporary amusement. If you don’t complete it, you don’t loose anything.

Well written post, but if I sum it up it comes down to “no achievements in temporary content please”. Unless I misunderstand it.

The thing is that simulating change in the world through a living story comes at the price of temporary content. It’s the very core of their current live team concept.

A very good point can be made for halting this experiment and instead focusing development on permanent additions that enrich the game with more content for years down the road. Nobody would miss achievements, new players would have more content to play through, returning players would notice all the work Anet poured into the game in their absence, etc. I cannot argue against that and I am all in favor of more permanent content.

But I also find the idea of temporary content intriguing enough to wait a bit longer to see how well it turns out. We’re at the start of chapter 2 only and I’m sure it is very much a learning experience for Anet. Yes it means I have achievements uncompleted forever, and there are now items I can no longer obtain like the fused weapons. That is the price of having this changing content, because if you make it available through other means like servers-in-the-past or recap npcs or whatever else, there really is no point anymore to not just making permanent content instead. And like I said favoring permanent content is a very understandable stance to have – I might change my mind towards that in the coming months.

Meluna.1764:

UKNightWatch.5742:

in game information about ‘important’ events with a time limit to complete would be useful and should be implemented.

Again, there was an ingame UI message that informed users about remaining time.
The nature of temporary content has been discussed in other threads, the short version is: Users asked for it, got what they asked for and are happy, other users complain because you can’t please everybody.
The living story content is just a small part of the world and more of a temporary amusement. If you don’t complete it, you don’t loose anything.

Correct me if im wrong but it was just a bar, in my mind i want an actual timer . Good example of this was with the final bit of the molten alliance, i thought the dungeon was over the 13th(as in you had the 13th to run it) but it was in fact the 12th. So when it was the 12th at 8pm (reset time) there was no dungeon. Im not sure what i missed out on as supposedly having a little extra cut scene to it but w/e it was i missed due how i interpreted the wording or misread it.

Warruz.8096:

Meluna.1764:

UKNightWatch.5742:

in game information about ‘important’ events with a time limit to complete would be useful and should be implemented.

Again, there was an ingame UI message that informed users about remaining time.
The nature of temporary content has been discussed in other threads, the short version is: Users asked for it, got what they asked for and are happy, other users complain because you can’t please everybody.
The living story content is just a small part of the world and more of a temporary amusement. If you don’t complete it, you don’t loose anything.

Correct me if im wrong but it was just a bar, in my mind i want an actual timer . Good example of this was with the final bit of the molten alliance, i thought the dungeon was over the 13th(as in you had the 13th to run it) but it was in fact the 12th. So when it was the 12th at 8pm (reset time) there was no dungeon. Im not sure what i missed out on as supposedly having a little extra cut scene to it but w/e it was i missed due how i interpreted the wording or misread it.

Yes it was a bar. It emptied regularely so when the bar was almost finished, you knew to hurry up. I agree that the design choice maybe wasn’t optimal, but implementing an exact timer is probably impossible, people would then complain that it finished a minute too early/late.
A possibility that might work would be to have a permanent announcement of clear dates about the current event:
A) in the launcher after login (where news are now and noone would read that either).
B) in the character login screen in a box at the side.
I’d prefer either way over unremovably clunky UI overlays any day. What do you think? Would people notice these announcements?

Meluna.1764:

UKNightWatch.5742:

in game information about ‘important’ events with a time limit to complete would be useful and should be implemented.

Again, there was an ingame UI message that informed users about remaining time.
The nature of temporary content has been discussed in other threads, the short version is: Users asked for it, got what they asked for and are happy, other users complain because you can’t please everybody.
The living story content is just a small part of the world and more of a temporary amusement. If you don’t complete it, you don’t loose anything.

I fully accept that I could not play during the time limit due to circumstance as I explained and do not blame Anet or anyone else for this. Thing is, if I’m unable to play then it is likely that I will be unable to see any UI message – again my problem not that of Anet.

As for users asking for something and getting it and others complaining. First; I have no complaint! My previous post should have been enough to demonstrate this. I did make some suggestions though regarding how to put some of the complaints ‘to bed’ or prevent such complaints in the future. Added to this, just do a search of my other thread activity – particularly regarding Eyefinity and you will see quite plainly that I agree that you cannot please everyone all the time!

I also agree that ‘The living story content is just a small part of the world and more of a temporary amusement. If you don’t complete it, you don’t loose anything.’ and I missed it through my own action or inaction. Maybe my suggestion of marking the components as missed or removing them from the player log would be for the best in these cases. That way players would not be running around and getting frustrated trying to complete tasks that are simply ‘dead’ now and thus in-completable.

A final note but not a complaint;

Regarding ‘If you don’t complete it, you don’t loose anything.’ I would say you are both right and wrong at the same time (no offence meant). I knew I would miss the time limited event and accepted this and as such lost nothing. Others argue that they were not aware of the time limit so lost the chance to take part in the event and the chance to get the ‘final’ reward or what ever they want to argue or complain about.

Life is! Gaming is an important activity in life for some. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose and sometimes we miss the chance to do either. I have no complaint as such about the missed time limit. It would be good though if Anet did something about the achievements listed as active that cannot now be completed though – it would save confusion and frustration if those achievements where removed or marked missed for those that cannot complete them now.

Meluna.1764:

Warruz.8096:

Meluna.1764:

UKNightWatch.5742:

in game information about ‘important’ events with a time limit to complete would be useful and should be implemented.

Again, there was an ingame UI message that informed users about remaining time.
The nature of temporary content has been discussed in other threads, the short version is: Users asked for it, got what they asked for and are happy, other users complain because you can’t please everybody.
The living story content is just a small part of the world and more of a temporary amusement. If you don’t complete it, you don’t loose anything.

Correct me if im wrong but it was just a bar, in my mind i want an actual timer . Good example of this was with the final bit of the molten alliance, i thought the dungeon was over the 13th(as in you had the 13th to run it) but it was in fact the 12th. So when it was the 12th at 8pm (reset time) there was no dungeon. Im not sure what i missed out on as supposedly having a little extra cut scene to it but w/e it was i missed due how i interpreted the wording or misread it.

Yes it was a bar. It emptied regularely so when the bar was almost finished, you knew to hurry up. I agree that the design choice maybe wasn’t optimal, but implementing an exact timer is probably impossible, people would then complain that it finished a minute too early/late.
A possibility that might work would be to have a permanent announcement of clear dates about the current event:
A) in the launcher after login (where news are now and noone would read that either).
B) in the character login screen in a box at the side.
I’d prefer either way over unremovably clunky UI overlays any day. What do you think? Would people notice these announcements?

After all I have posted so far in this thread, I see good in both A and B. However, you are right to point out ‘noone would read that either’. That is just human nature. I used to work as a lead store man in a warehouse and I know only to well that if you put up a sign for / or an announcement, most people will either read it once then forget it, think it does not apply to them, not even look at it or simply disregard it in some other way.

I agree with you absolutely that achievements no longer available should be marked as such. To new players, this will be very confusing. This is a must-have if you deal with non-permanent content. Probably an oversight, but will hopefully corrected. I also thinkt the living world achievements should be collapsed into one tab with sub-tabs, as atm it is not recognisable as an ongoing event.

The Living Story rewards are thankfully not that much. For F&F it was one pair of exotic gauntlets, for the current it’s two backpieces mostly interesting for skins. So basically what you get is a unique design. I like that a lot, because people that participated get something special, while those that missed out do not loose essential things. The bonfire with the giant buff was even accessable to those that didn’t complete the event, which is perfect for the celebration it was supposed to represent. However, May I ask what you mean with ‘marking components as removed’. I agree on the achievements, which other components are you speaking of. Just to make sure I understand.

UKNightWatch.5742:

After all I have posted so far in this thread, I see good in both A and B. However, you are right to point out ‘noone would read that either’. That is just human nature. I used to work as a lead store man in a warehouse and I know only to well that if you put up a sign for / or an announcement, most people will either read it once then forget it, think it does not apply to them, not even look at it or simply disregard it in some other way.

Haha, I know what you mean. Try working on an Info desk giving out information every 5 minutes that you have plastered in giant letters on the wall right behind you XD
edit: blargh, I meant to edit this in, brainfart >_<

He means the entries in the achievement list I believe.

Achievements for temporary content are a two-edged sword i games like these because many people develop what I’d call “achievement OCD”. I’ve been guilty of it myself. In such cases marking things as “missed” is just as bad because they see it as permanent blemish or failure on their part (unreasonably so).

If there were no achievements for the entirety of the living story many, many complaints from the forum would vanish. The problem is, they’d be replaced by an equal amount of “i want achievement/titles/permanent recognition for my deeds in this chapter” complaints. You really cannot please everybody at the same time, after all.

I kinda hope that Anet sticks to their guns on the living story (obviously learning and improving it) so people get used to it. Because right now most played other games before where you mostly can go back and do things later and the living story seems counter-intuitive and different. These differences with the usual internet sense of entitlement creates alot of complaints that’ll hopefully die down once the Living story has matured some more.

(not saying you are complaining but as you see on the living story forums, many people do)

Just popping back in briefly as I have about a dozen other tasks on the go just now!

Just to try to clarify; I think that the events are great and that those participating get from them the experience of taking part, any related character experience and any related reward and all this is good. Those unable to take part for whatever reason do miss out in a way but they should not complain if, as is my case this time round, the reasons for not taking part are due to factors outside the game. Yes! It could be argued that better information should be given regarding the time frame of events – for sure. However, we can not blame Anet or any other company that does give such information when we cannot or will not view said information because of events outside the control of whichever company.

I refer to suggestion (2.) in my previous post in regard to achievements and the character / account achievement list;

‘2, If someone has not been able to complete the achievements of a story line / arc due to not being able to play and complete before a closing date then please remove that achievement from their in game achievement log or mark it as missed in some way. This is because people tend to get angry / frustrated if they are running around trying to complete an achievement listed in the log where the achievement is active in the log but inactive in the game and therefore in-completable with no indication in game of that fact.’

It may not be ideal to have an achievement in the list ‘locked’ or marked as ‘missed’ (as in – sorry bub but you missed taking part in the event / story / achievement because you did not log in in the given time frame) but it would save the frustration of myself and others running around trying to find out how to complete the achievement (as it is still ‘open’ or ‘do-able’ in our log) when the achievement is now unobtainable and / or effectively dead.

It may not be easy to code the game to NOT show items in the achievement list but, again, this would stop the frustration of trying to complete an achievement that can simply not be completed any more.

So! Anet, the suggestion stands. Please, if there is a way to do it, when an achievement is no longer available for completion either mark it in the player achievement log as ‘Unobtainable’ / ‘Missed (due to time constraint)’ / ‘[insert reason/ description / message]’ or remove the achievement for the player that missed it and can no longer do it because it has been (for whatever reason) disabled in game.

Hope I have cleared that up some – I have to go now as RL beckons but I will try to get back to this thread when I have time.

I’m in the same boat, missing the Avenger of the Dispossessed achievement, even with the bonfires back up now, which does lessen the sting. I, incorrectly as I have recently discovered, assumed that Anet would allow some overlap between their events. Overlapping events something I’ve come to expect from mmos as it gives participants who are interested in events a good kick up the rear to hurry up and get the old one completed.

I could of course forget about it and move on, if it weren’t for the permanently archived blemish in my achievement window constantly reminding me of my failure to talk to two npcs in a timely manner. The way the dates were handled you’d think Anet were trying to catch people out. It may seem petty but I now feel discouraged to participate in future events; its not a good feeling and not something I’d expect from a game I’m supposed to enjoy.

They could remove the useless links in the launcher news, then they could add “living story patch content” including “this content is available until <time><date>”
But everything should be there, you should not have to click a link to open the browser.

Secret of Southhsun living story
(starts at x and ends at x)
- briefly explain story
- list what you’re expected to do to help southsun
- list achievrments
- etc as per living story patch notes

This is not to say blog posts can’t be linked there, but they are not too relevant to gameplay so shouldn’t be as big as a priority. They could be on a separate section.

If living story is to make people login, they should make the information available on the launcher. My husband logged in when he saw living story on the patcher, logged in, read mail spoke to herald and didn’t understand what to do… logged out.
H’s not the kind of guy to go to Dulfy, Reddit, Anet blog or forums. He doesn’t have the time to do that and he’s not good at reseaching online even if he wanted to. Other games put this sort of stuff on the patcher.
Everything should be able to be figured out from the game itself. You’re playing guild wars, you’re not playing “searching Google”!

I have auto login and auto play, but yes, if the information were there I would read it. It’s preciseless because the announcements are useless filler that I don’t read them anymore. Every time I clicked each link to see the blog post I was disapointed at the waste of time it was to read it (I could have not read it and wouldn’t have missed anything important)