Guild Wars 2

Just need the right party composition aka 2 guardians and it becomes mega easy.

I had thought GW2’s whole philosophy with abolishing the holy trinity was to make it so any class combo could do all the main content, and while some classes could have a stronger ability to perform a role, it should not be ‘required’ to have a given class.

dreadicon.5840:

I had thought GW2’s whole philosophy with abolishing the holy trinity was to make it so any class combo could do all the main content, and while some classes could have a stronger ability to perform a role, it should not be ‘required’ to have a given class.

It’s not required to have guardians. It just makes it significantly easier. Why? Because their professions utility can cater to your every need in this dungeon.

I’m sorry, but I absolutely DESPISE the “OH NO IT’S TO HARD FOR CASUALS!!1!!1!” belief.

No, it is not.

First: Many of the more “casual” members of my guild have in fact beat it, multiple times in fact.

Second: How exactly are we defining casual anyways? Everyone seems to have their own opinion of what casual is.

Celestina.2894:

I’m sorry, but I absolutely DESPISE the “OH NO IT’S TO HARD FOR CASUALS!!1!!1!” belief.

No, it is not.

First: Many of the more “casual” members of my guild have in fact beat it, multiple times in fact.

Second: How exactly are we defining casual anyways? Everyone seems to have their own opinion of what casual is.

I dunno, I’m a casually hardcore player (ironic) that is very competent at this dungeon. I can carry pugs in groups (and have). This dungeon is easy as long as you’re able to play the game. I was able to run with 2 people who had no idea what they were doing and was able to get Unfriendly Skies twice with them. They both died multiple times in both boss fights.

Also, I ran with 3 people and we were able to get Unfriendly Skies (we had all the achievements so dunno what else we “got”). With the 3 people run it was 2 guards and 1 mes (I’m the mes). We finished with no wipes, but we all downed a total of about 6 times (all of us together, not each). We ended the dungeon with 2 of us still maintaining 25 stacks from weapons. The third person downed mid-boss battle after taking a shadowstep and flourish (both his and my fault. He could have aegis/moved, and I was intending to reflect that shot).

Note: That was technically a pug run as I had never ran with them before.

Here we go again .. the dungeon is too hard . it’s too easy it’s not for casuals .. oh yes it is .. OMG. Dungeons continue to be a divisive issue in GW2. I don’t understand how Anet hasn’t figured out a solution to this problem. It would certainly make everyone a lot happier and more inclined to continue playing the game. Have the devs ever commented on having a regular mode and hard mode for story dungeons? This has been suggested so many times.

I realize that it will be impossible to please every single person when it comes to this issue. But it would go a long way to satisfying the majority of players.

Gonna throw my two cents in here.

Compared to CoF, Fractals is hardly rewarding. Quite clearly much more challenging, for maybe a quarter of what you get from CoF though. That could be changed if all the exotics in Fractals chests weren’t frickin account bound.

@Celestnia, casual is a relative term, it’s true. I thought I defined it fairly well in my post what I meant by casual: “…casuals aren’t necessarily people who don’t care as much about GW2; they are often people who have lots of irl obligations (friends, family, work, etc), or people who simply enjoy the game for other reasons (roleplay, lore, WvW, or just not focusing too much on the technical aspects).”

@Esplen, this is true, but again, why is one class favored over others? this seems like a balance oversight, which while not a big deal in long-term content (because they can fix it over time), but does become an issue in temporary content.

@Rosen Myst, My thoughts exactly; at least for temporary story-related material.

@Toast, I’ve run twilight arbor exp, Cadicus manor exp, and Arah exp: they average about half the gold value of a single fractal run for the daily, and I get fractal relics, which are far more valuable than dungeon tokens in stat value. I’m not saying CoF shouldn’t be nerfed a little, or fractals couldn’t use better reward scaling with difficulty level, but the point is you DON’T do most of the dungeons if you care AT ALL about money. Fractals at least gives rewards that feel like you got something!

Rosen Myst.7641:

Here we go again .. the dungeon is too hard . it’s too easy it’s not for casuals .. oh yes it is .. OMG. Dungeons continue to be a divisive issue in GW2. I don’t understand how Anet hasn’t figured out a solution to this problem. It would certainly make everyone a lot happier and more inclined to continue playing the game. Have the devs ever commented on having a regular mode and hard mode for story dungeons? This has been suggested so many times.

I realize that it will be impossible to please every single person when it comes to this issue. But it would go a long way to satisfying the majority of players.

They had hard and easy modes on SAB and the people that were unable to complete the hard mode complained that they didn’t want to do easy mode, but they weren’t able to do hardmode.

As for the person who posted right above this, I’m going to go and say that nothing will ever be perfectly balanced for every class. If it was, it wouldn’t be interesting. Also, mesmers are op in the new dungeon, but people don’t notice that. Why? Because Mesmers aren’t superbly party-friendly players. I’m able to solo the boss fights if I make few mistakes (yes I can make mistakes unlike other professions), but that’s my class design, not my skill as a player (although it does come in to help me in pinches).

They really just need to do away with the constant limited time only crap. Certain festivals and things make great limited time events, but normal content shouldn’t be limited.

Using the living story’s logic, it’s time to remove all of the risen from the game and the entire story quest. Zhaitan has been gone for ages. Make everything limited and you don’t have a game anymore.

dreadicon.5840:

The problem is this: Living story dungeons which are hard will block casuals from finishing the storyline, not because a casual can’t learn the mechanics, but because a casual only plays a few hours out of the week. The biggest problem with this dungeon is that it is story-related, temporary, AND very difficult. Remove any of those three elements and it becomes casual friendly. Temporary and difficult but not story-related? Casuals can just ignore; they won’t be missing anything that special by not playing. Difficult and story related but not temporary? also fine, as the casual has plenty of time to master it.

I think you are making a very good point here.

Excalibur.9748:

Just need the right party composition aka 2 guardians and it becomes mega easy.

I’m thinking some guardians are more party-buff specced than others. I was thinking this when I did the dungeon with two guardians and it still was hard.

I don’t know how this is normally handled in other dungeons, but.. how do you know if a pug of 5 people has the amount of boons/heals/whatever to survive while standing near the woman at the last boss? Other than warrior x4 +thief being a bad combo.. I don’t know. But I think the requirements are higher here than in many places.

Linosaurus.1905:

dreadicon.5840:

The problem is this: Living story dungeons which are hard will block casuals from finishing the storyline, not because a casual can’t learn the mechanics, but because a casual only plays a few hours out of the week. The biggest problem with this dungeon is that it is story-related, temporary, AND very difficult. Remove any of those three elements and it becomes casual friendly. Temporary and difficult but not story-related? Casuals can just ignore; they won’t be missing anything that special by not playing. Difficult and story related but not temporary? also fine, as the casual has plenty of time to master it.

I think you are making a very good point here.

Excalibur.9748:

Just need the right party composition aka 2 guardians and it becomes mega easy.

I’m thinking some guardians are more party-buff specced than others. I was thinking this when I did the dungeon with two guardians and it still was hard.

I don’t know how this is normally handled in other dungeons, but.. how do you know if a pug of 5 people has the amount of boons/heals/whatever to survive while standing near the woman at the last boss? Other than warrior x4 +thief being a bad combo.. I don’t know. But I think the requirements are higher here than in many places.

2 staff guardians would be amazing.

@Esplen, I’m not asking for perfect class balance; I am simply asking for an easy mode for the story-realated content. if there is a hard mode, by all means, make it such that some classes shine more than others; same with builds. Living Story dungeons which advance the core story should be very doable with 5 random people who know that dodging exists and how to point themselves in the right direction. Arah’s story mode is an excelent example of a dungeon appropriate for a storyline. That’s the standard to which they should make all temporary dungeons. Any random PUG can do it.

@Linosaurus, thankyou, and you add more good points to the mix; what if your friends all roll Warriors as a little RP group as a ‘Charr Warrior Warband’ or some such? Your options are to revert to Final Fantasy 11 “NEED WHITE MAGE” shouts till you get a couple guardians, join a random PUG, or to suffer through hell and back trying to do it with your buddies.

@Dog, I agree, have for some time. I dont mind some living story, but it’s like they are throwing away tons perfectly good content because the event is over.

Dog.1472:

Using the living story’s logic, it’s time to remove all of the risen from the game and the entire story quest. Zhaitan has been gone for ages. Make everything limited and you don’t have a game anymore.

The living story is the GAME’S personal storyline.

Zhaitan/Risen/Orr are all part of YOUR (individual character’s) personal storyline.

Once you start differentiating, it makes more sense.

YOU can’t repeat YOUR personal storyline.

THE GAME can’t repeat THE GAME’S personal storyline.

Dog.1472:

Snip

Using the living story’s logic, it’s time to remove all of the risen from the game and the entire story quest. Zhaitan has been gone for ages. Make everything limited and you don’t have a game anymore.

Zhaitan is gone for the people that have finished their own story line. He is not gone for the ones that haven’t. The people who haven’t finished their storyline are probably a fair percentage of the population.

The only reason you can’t repeat your personal storyline or the living story can’t be repeated is because of a decision by Anet. There’s no inherent reason they couldn’t be repeated if the game was going in a different direction.

In any case, this thread is about story dungeons and the fact that they’re temporary content. To many it seems like a waste of a good dungeon. Casual players given more time to work on these dungeons would have a better chance to enjoy the content. So I think they should be left in the game for a longer period of time after the event if not permanently.

dreadicon.5840:

The biggest problem with this dungeon is that it is story-related, temporary, AND very difficult. Remove any of those three elements and it becomes casual friendly.

You nailed it.

Esplen.3940:

Dog.1472:

Using the living story’s logic, it’s time to remove all of the risen from the game and the entire story quest. Zhaitan has been gone for ages. Make everything limited and you don’t have a game anymore.

Zhaitan/Risen/Orr are all part of YOUR (individual character’s) personal storyline.

You seem to miss my point. There is no reason to differentiate these two things. The logic behind the living story is that the world is ever growing, ever changing, so in order to encompass that idea, they make content limited and remove it after a period of time. They do this to make the game feel like a real world in that once an event has been done, it’s done. That particular person/thing is done and gone.

And so using that same logic, Zhaitan needs to be removed because that event is done and over, but they don’t do that because you need to have some actual content in the game. By making the living story the way it is, the game never grows. There is absolutely no intelligent reason not to have everything be your own story.

Astral Projections.7320:

Zhaitan is gone for the people that have finished their own story line. He is not gone for the ones that haven’t. The people who haven’t finished their storyline are probably a fair percentage of the population.

And you could say the aetherblades are still there for those who haven’t encountered them either, I fail to see your point.

there also needs to be some way of having any combo of profs the way it is now this living story stuff is only creating problems like “lfg heavies only” or lights and meds must have pvt this is only causing more one sided community for these dungeons. i ran AR the other day not a single heavy 4 lights 1 med and NOONE DIED. at the end we had one down but got them up ive seen a necro solo mai and horrik took some time but seriously. And fix the mess about party leaders kicking ppl out of a dungeon already we had ppl get the reward and boom every1 kicked ppl miss loot etc and several occasions have leader getting lag or dc or just plain afk cant kick cause itll boot every1 else FIX THESE ISSUES PLZ

Dog.1472:

Esplen.3940:

Dog.1472:

Using the living story’s logic, it’s time to remove all of the risen from the game and the entire story quest. Zhaitan has been gone for ages. Make everything limited and you don’t have a game anymore.

Zhaitan/Risen/Orr are all part of YOUR (individual character’s) personal storyline.

You seem to miss my point. There is no reason to differentiate these two things. The logic behind the living story is that the world is ever growing, ever changing, so in order to encompass that idea, they make content limited and remove it after a period of time. They do this to make the game feel like a real world in that once an event has been done, it’s done. That particular person/thing is done and gone.

And so using that same logic, Zhaitan needs to be removed because that event is done and over, but they don’t do that because you need to have some actual content in the game. By making the living story the way it is, the game never grows. There is absolutely no intelligent reason not to have everything be your own story.

Astral Projections.7320:

Zhaitan is gone for the people that have finished their own story line. He is not gone for the ones that haven’t. The people who haven’t finished their storyline are probably a fair percentage of the population.

And you could say the aetherblades are still there for those who haven’t encountered them either, I fail to see your point.

And YOU seem to have failed to understand my point. The WORLD has progressed. The WORLDS personal storyline has moved a little bit. Now the WORLD does not have the Molten Alliance actively plotting to take over. Currently, the WORLD has Aetherblades trying to disrupt and invade the Lion's Archcouncil. However, when the Dragon Bash ends, the WORLD will not have Aetherblades actively vying for control. They will have (potentially) stopped. (I say this because with both the Molten Alliance and Aetherblade Pirates, we haven’t seen or heard of their head honchos so I’m sure they’ll be back for more.)

It’s like when you make a new character. You defeat the big, bad guy at the very beginning. He’s gone and done for. Woot woot, you finished him, never to fight him again on that character.

Now imagine someone was playing a supporting character, like one of the guards, or npc’s. When YOU finish killing the beast, regardless of whether or not they participated in the fight, they (at least in YOUR iteration of the game) also get moved on and have now progressed. It doesn’t matter that they didn’t get credit for killing the beast. Sure, they could also be called the Hero of Shaemoor, or whatever other name you get from finishing your tutorial. BUT THEY DIDN’T AND THEY AREN’T.

@Pixelpumpkin, lol, thanks for the endorsement.

@Dog’s comment, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with some elements of the game being temporary, but after fractals, no new dungeons have been added to the world, only temporary ones. If they are going to add new dungeons which are temporary, add some that are permanent too! IMO, there should be at least as much permanent NEW content as there is temporary. I get that they are doing alot of work to polish and improve the game’s existing stuff, but I would really like new permanent content I can go do with my friends whenever we want. The way it is now, if I don’t like the content flavor of the month, I’m working with the same content the game came out with plus Southsun and Fractals. That’s it!

@Esplen, I agree, there is a place for world story; it helps set GW2 apart from other MMOs. But asside from guild activities, we have gotten NO new content to speak of after fractals came out! I would like to see the story stay a story and the challenging, interesting GAMEPLAY content stick around in some form. It was suggested to move them into Fractals, and I think that would be a great idea, but so far I have only heard rumors of this actually happening.

The point of this thread is that Anet seems to be wasting perfectly good content by making it temporary. The fact that it’s removal is explained in lore does not change the fact that they are throwing away needlessly large amounts of their own hard work which could have remained in some incarnation for all players to enjoy for years to come. As a result, they are pushing away casuals and not doing any favors for hardcores (who want more difficult dungeons. Realize that as much as anyone likes this dungeon, it is going away in a week and possibly never coming back.)

Esplen.3940:

The WORLD has progressed.

You aren’t reading at all. Do you not understand the concept of making everything someone’s personal story? It is the same concept that’s been in every game. All of these events happen in the player’s eyes. The world progresses through a player’s experience.

Again, there is no reason to remove content when it can happen through a player’s experience. A video game makes up it’s own rules, and the rules of the living story are stupid compared to a personal one. Do you understand?

The only thing a living story accomplishes is to make content limited. It does not make any more sense than a personal world.

Dog.1472:

Esplen.3940:

The WORLD has progressed.

You aren’t reading at all. Do you not understand the concept of making everything someone’s personal story? It is the same concept that’s been in every game. All of these events happen in the player’s eyes. The world progresses through a player’s experience.

Actually, I feel like you’re not reading. You take one little snippet out of the entirety of my posts and relate your entire argument over that one little snippet. But, I’ll play along. Yes, currently, we, the PLAYERS are PLAYING INSPECTOR KIEL’S STORY. I’m sorry, it’s sad, but it’s true. So, Inspector Kiel is about to finish her Personal Storyline Quest. She’s about to get her reward and move onto the next quest. I think the reward is going to be a promotion in the Lionsguard. That’s great for her! Oh, by the way, did I mention that when she progresses, she’s not going to try and do old Personal Storyline quests again? Not that she can, but I don’t think she will.

Again, there is no reason to remove content when it can happen through a player’s experience. A video game makes up it’s own rules, and the rules of the living story are stupid compared to a personal one. Do you understand?

I agree, when I fight a mob, I don’t think the mob should be removed from existence. I think I should continue to be able to beat up the mob while it’s dead because it is content that happens in my, a player’s, experience. A video game makes up it’s own rules, and the rules of the monsters are stupid compared to what I think. Do you understand? (Note: this is a straw man because your argument in this paragraph is a post hoc ergo propter hoc)

The only thing a living story accomplishes is to make content limited. It does not make any more sense than a personal world.

Yeah, I agree, when we elect a president, the presidential election should continue for years to come because even though other people enter the world, they should still have a say in the past. I agree entirely. (Note: you don’t even have an argument here, so I just applied a fallacy.)

-Yours truly
A Tired Esplen

Esplen.3940:

A Tired Esplen

You clearly are very tired when you fail to see that the only thing you are arguing over is the reasoning behind making content limited.

In the simplest way that I can possibly say, this content would be better if it wasn’t removed. Do you understand this?

You are using completely ridiculous and baseless analogies that have absolutely no relation to the actual discussion.

Esplen.3940:

Dog.1472:

Esplen.3940:

The WORLD has progressed.

You aren’t reading at all. Do you not understand the concept of making everything someone’s personal story? It is the same concept that’s been in every game. All of these events happen in the player’s eyes. The world progresses through a player’s experience.

Actually, I feel like you’re not reading. You take one little snippet out of the entirety of my posts and relate your entire argument over that one little snippet. But, I’ll play along. Yes, currently, we, the PLAYERS are PLAYING INSPECTOR KIEL’S STORY. I’m sorry, it’s sad, but it’s true. So, Inspector Kiel is about to finish her Personal Storyline Quest. She’s about to get her reward and move onto the next quest. I think the reward is going to be a promotion in the Lionsguard. That’s great for her! Oh, by the way, did I mention that when she progresses, she’s not going to try and do old Personal Storyline quests again? Not that she can, but I don’t think she will.

Again, there is no reason to remove content when it can happen through a player’s experience. A video game makes up it’s own rules, and the rules of the living story are stupid compared to a personal one. Do you understand?

I agree, when I fight a mob, I don’t think the mob should be removed from existence. I think I should continue to be able to beat up the mob while it’s dead because it is content that happens in my, a player’s, experience. A video game makes up it’s own rules, and the rules of the monsters are stupid compared to what I think. Do you understand? (Note: this is a straw man because your argument in this paragraph is a post hoc ergo propter hoc)

The only thing a living story accomplishes is to make content limited. It does not make any more sense than a personal world.

Yeah, I agree, when we elect a president, the presidential election should continue for years to come because even though other people enter the world, they should still have a say in the past. I agree entirely. (Note: you don’t even have an argument here, so I just applied a fallacy.)

-Yours truly
A Tired Esplen

+1 I agree with everything you’ve said thus far

I enjoy how the world moves forward like this. Not to say there can’t be permanent content, but living storys should be temporary and new ones replace them. Its like reading a book XD

@Dog and Esplen, I think you have both gotten a bit off topic. There is weight to both arguments, but I really think it is beyond the scope we are discussing here. Yes, the game COULD have implemented the living story in a way similar to WoW, or similar to the personal story, but it doesnt. And there’s nothing particularly wrong with that in the context of this discussion. Ultimately, this is how the game works, and I am arguing within the context of how the game currently works, offering suggestions for fixing a problem without altering the current model.

Dog.1472:

Esplen.3940:

A Tired Esplen

You clearly are very tired when you fail to see that the only thing you are arguing over is the reasoning behind making content limited.

In the simplest way that I can possibly say, this content would be better if it wasn’t removed. Do you understand this?

You are using completely ridiculous and baseless analogies that have absolutely no relation to the actual discussion.

I thank you for refuting the final line of my entire response, aka my SIGNING OF MY RESPONSE, instead of my actual response, which contains details that use ridiculous and baseless analogies EQUIVALENT to the ones you have made.

My tiredness does not prevent me from making intellectual statements or conclusions. It merely states that I should be going to sleep soon.

How about Anet makes a dungeon, that replays dungeons!! Bloody brilliant!

BattleBuddy.6094:

How about Anet makes a dungeon, that replays dungeons!! Bloody brilliant!

Oh, and they can make it scale infinitely for the really hardcore players. OH MAN, I THINK WE’RE ONTO SOMETHING!

Esplen.3940:

My tiredness does not prevent me from making intellectual statements or conclusions.

Except it obviously does when you focus on what I leave in the quote rather than what I am telling you.

It is very simple, the world can progress through a personal world as much as it can on a global scale. Trahearne went from being a scholar to a general. The same can happen in any context within the game. All of this content can be added permanently through a personal story. The only reasoning behind a living world is to make things last for a set time thus, as believed by anet, making the world more interesting and bringing a sense of urgency, as you only have so much time to do something.

But as dreadicon says, this has gotten completely off topic. The entire point from the beginning is that the content would be better if it was permanent. The context for why it is or isn’t is completely irrelevant.

BattleBuddy.6094:

I enjoy how the world moves forward like this. Not to say there can’t be permanent content, but living storys should be temporary and new ones replace them. Its like reading a book XD

No, it isn’t like reading a book. In a book, there’s a logical progression form point A in the polt to point B in the plot. This progression does not vanish if you were to say, set the book down for a week before picking it up again. That’s essentially what the temporary content boils down to.

No, this is more like a weekly tv show with an ongoing storyline. Like a soap opera, let’s say. You miss an episode one week, and you’ll be pretty lost to what’s happening. Why is Michelle suddenly with Derrick when she was Richard last week? Basically, confusing and frustrating. It denies opportunity rather than create opportunity.

If you want to see Tyria change and grow, it won’t be through limited time events, it will be through new permanent content that expands the world in a way which all players, new or old, can appreciate. It is by creating new opportunities.

Dog.1472:

Esplen.3940:

My tiredness does not prevent me from making intellectual statements or conclusions.

Except it obviously does when you focus on what I leave in the quote rather than what I am telling you.

I apologize, I didn’t realize you were telling me something that you weren’t putting down on paper. OH WAIT, THAT’S RIGHT, YOU WERE TELLING IT TO ME THROUGH YOUR SCREEN. DUH, I DIDN’T HAVE MY HEADSET ON Give me a second, grabbing my headset…
Oh okay, suddenly your entire argument makes more se- no… no it really doesn’t.

Oh, and by the way, since you’re just going to quote one line and respond, that’s what I’m going to do now too, so your entire argument has been refuted.

Just a tip: If you want people to take you seriously when having a conversation or debate, or even an argument, listen to their points, don’t just home on that one line that seems the weakest to you, because then your entire argument is balanced on top of a really weak line that tends to have little to do with the anything in the first place.

GummiArms.5368:

BattleBuddy.6094:

I enjoy how the world moves forward like this. Not to say there can’t be permanent content, but living storys should be temporary and new ones replace them. Its like reading a book XD

No, it isn’t like reading a book. In a book, there’s a logical progression form point A in the polt to point B in the plot. This progression does not vanish if you were to say, set the book down for a week before picking it up again. That’s essentially what the temporary content boils down to.

No, this is more like a weekly tv show with an ongoing storyline. Like a soap opera, let’s say. You miss an episode one week, and you’ll be pretty lost to what’s happening. Why is Michelle suddenly with Derrick when she was Richard last week? Basically, confusing and frustrating. It denies opportunity rather than create opportunity.

If you want to see Tyria change and grow, it won’t be through limited time events, it will be through new permanent content that expands the world in a way which all players, new or old, can appreciate. It is by creating new opportunities.

Very well said. It would be like trying to read a book that gradually loses more and more chapters as time goes on. The more of a gap that is left, the less engaging the book becomes. There will be too much that you wouldn’t be able to understand.

Esplen.3940:

Dog.1472:

Esplen.3940:

My tiredness does not prevent me from making intellectual statements or conclusions.

Except it obviously does when you focus on what I leave in the quote rather than what I am telling you.

I apologize, I didn’t realize you were telling me something that you weren’t putting down on paper. OH WAIT, THAT’S RIGHT, YOU WERE TELLING IT TO ME THROUGH YOUR SCREEN. DUH, I DIDN’T HAVE MY HEADSET ON Give me a second, grabbing my headset…
Oh okay, suddenly your entire argument makes more se- no… no it really doesn’t.

Oh, and by the way, since you’re just going to quote one line and respond, that’s what I’m going to do now too, so your entire argument has been refuted.

Just a tip: If you want people to take you seriously when having a conversation or debate, or even an argument, listen to their points, don’t just home on that one line that seems the weakest to you, because then your entire argument is balanced on top of a really weak line that tends to have little to do with the anything in the first place.

I’m with Dog on this one. You’ve taken an incredibly defensive stance in all of your recent posts. You accuse him of logical fallacies, but this argument falls through when you take into account the context of Dog’s argument. He isn’t attacking you, as your reactions would indicate. Your argument was simply untenable to begin with, and pointed this out.

Esplen.3940:

Just a tip: If you want people to take you seriously when having a conversation or debate, or even an argument, listen to their points.

You would be wise to follow your own advice. You are sitting here raving on about nothing relevant, posting in an incredibly disrespectful and arrogant way without making any effort to respond to my argument.

I have repeatedly been trying to explain to you how a living temporary world that changes globally, can be done just as well, if not better, in a permanent personal world that will be an overall better experience not just for regular players, but also for new ones.

I want to see content that everyone can enjoy when they want to without being forced to play on Anet’s schedule.

@ Esplen
I read and understood the entirety of both arguments. Perhaps he could have stated this better at the outset, but the fact is that as a matter of perspective it wouldn’t make sense for a player to see the game from the point of view of the world itself. That isn’t how the games like this one work, because that isn’t how life works. As human beings, our experiences are limited by our perception. Because the temporary content will generally lack in lasting consequences for the game world, it might as well not exist for those who don’t have the opportunity to perceive it. It may provide a break in the routine for players, but it does not cause the world of the game to grow and evolve in a measurable way.

By your posts, I can see that you are reading Dog’s posts. But I don’t get the impression that you are truly understanding the thrust of his argument.

So…..this has become a debate over if the living story should be played out in limited time events or as permanent instanced-per-player content? OK……

Benefits of Limited time content:
-Fairly unique to GW2
-Tends to keep a wide variety of players coming back and playing every month, keeping the world populated
-Makes the world feel a little more ‘alive’ and ‘Massive Multiplayer’ at the same time, by making everyone experience events at the same time (if they do at all).
-Lets the players ‘experience history of a living world,’ which mostly adds to the above.
-Fewer problems running into ‘this has happened’ and this hasn’t happened’ paradoxes

Benefits of Instanced Story Content:
-Tried and true MMO standard
-Play at your convenience!
-Content can be done over and over (in the case of dungeons) for continued fun

Ultimately, That’s what it boils down to. There are more points on the temporary content side, but Convenience and Replayability are very major factors, not to be taken lightly. IMHO, I like the living story, but I want them to focus less on it and more on adding to the game. A simple dungeon-esque instance would have sufficed for the story, and they could have given it an ‘explorable mode’ which would persist even after the event was over.

AGAIN THOUGH: This is really beyond the scope of this argument. Dog agreed to drop it, but you continued to spur on the argument Esplen. Neither of you are listening to one another’s arguments. You are arguing from different standpoints: Dog is arguing on the merits of changing the existing system, Esplen is arguing that the current system makes sense. Dog’s argument at it’s core wasn’t about it making sense alone; it was about the game experience as a whole. Making sense can be explained away in either scenario(Instanced persistant or temp content), so saying ‘it doesn’t make sense’ was a bad point for Dog to propose, and a bad point to argue against on Esplen’s part.

Now, can the personal attacks on both sides please come to a close and we get back to the original topic of the thread?

GummiArms.5368:

@ Esplen
I read and understood the entirety of both arguments. Perhaps he could have stated this better at the outset, but the fact is that as a matter of perspective it wouldn’t make sense for a player to see the game from the point of view of the world itself. That isn’t how the games like this one work, because that isn’t how life works. As human beings, our experiences are limited by our perception. Because the temporary content will generally lack in lasting consequences for the game world, it might as well not exist for those who don’t have the opportunity to perceive it. It may provide a break in the routine for players, but it does not cause the world of the game to grow and evolve in a measurable way.

By your posts, I can see that you are reading Dog’s posts. But I don’t get the impression that you are truly understanding the thrust of his argument.

And by your post, you’re understanding his points but not mine, even after reading them.

Sure, we can’t see the game from the worlds view, but that doesn’t mean that the world won’t change because of that. In fact, the world does change. Most people are too stubborn to realize the changes that have happened ingame (every release has had some permanent change to the game, regardless how small, even Flame & Frost, and no I’m not just talking about skins).

Also, it doesn’t matter if content is permanent or temporary, it still won’t mean anything to a new player that comes in. If I try showing a player that just starts playing the game the Living Story, they become overwhelmed. It’s happened to me more times than I can count. It doesn’t matter that it’s temporary, they’re trying to get used to the game. So, please, unless you ARE a new player that is complaining that you didn’t get to partake in the F&F event (which is an entirely different argument), don’t try to argue for those players, let them come in and realize that they’re missing something big and come here complaining. I really want to see one of their point of views for once, instead of someone who’s BEEN a part of those events trying to vouch for people who it doesn’t even seem need to have people vouching for them.

Everyone is entitled to thier own opinions and clearly no matter how much this argument goes on, both sides will stick to thier own.

My opinion on this matter is that the reason why I mainly like the LIVING story is that it does indeed show how the world is moving forward and not just sticking to one spot in time. Newer players who miss out on the older events can still have just as much enjoyment with the current and the ones in the future.

I do believe though that in order to make some people happy who are against this have a way to replay these old events without effecting the present time. Such as a dungeon that has a long timeline and the party can choose which month/ living story event they want to see or revisit. It could then show a cuscene of what happened throughout the living storys as well as give the players a chance to play any dungeons that may be in them for purely informative and fun purposes. Although items that were found in the dungeons at the time of the real living story including nodes cant be dropped or re harvested.

This way all players who want to go back in time and re-live past events can, which can keep both sides happy since it doesn’t disrupt Tyria in any way.

dreadicon.5840:

The biggest problem with this dungeon is that it is story-related, temporary, AND very difficult. Remove any of those three elements and it becomes casual friendly.

The original point was:

• Content that is story-related and difficult, but not temporary
  … can be done by any player at their own speed. (Example: Personal story conclusion)
• Content that is story-related and temporary, but not difficult
  … can be done by the vast majority of players. (Example: most Living Story content)
• Content that is difficult and temporary, but not story-related
  … can be done by the minority of players, but another part of the community would be happy(er) to ignore it. (Example: Inspector Null comes closest, I guess)

The Aetherblade dungeon is content that is

• story-related (many casuals don’t want to ignore it)
• difficult (many casuals need to master the learning curve)
• temporary (many casuals don’t have the time to do the above)

… and this is where the frustration comes in.

Now if the nwe dungeon was a permanent addition, everybody would be happy. (The achievement for its first completion could be temporary, but the so-called “skill achievements” would be part of the dungeon section, not the living story chapter section.)

The new jumping puzzle is a permanent addition and I don’t see anybody complaining about that, saying it should be temporary. This is a step in the right direction.

So, what are we arguing about?

For the record, I support the living story concept. I have no problem with temporary content, in fact I really like it. But balancing the temporary nature against other factors (such as difficulty and story-relatedness) seems to be something that ANet haven’t quite nailed yet. That is why we discuss issues like replayability of story-instances through historians or journals, difficulty of temporary achievements versus permanent achievements, etc.
I believe that with each “failure” (I personally consider the Aetherblade dungeon a failure, see above, in being inclusive of the majority of the player base), ANet is getting closer to achieving a pace and difficulty level that works for the majority of players, as well as mechancis like the journal. We’re going in the right direction, it’s just a slow process.

Esplen.3940:

GummiArms.5368:

@ Esplen
I read and understood the entirety of both arguments. Perhaps he could have stated this better at the outset, but the fact is that as a matter of perspective it wouldn’t make sense for a player to see the game from the point of view of the world itself. That isn’t how the games like this one work, because that isn’t how life works. As human beings, our experiences are limited by our perception. Because the temporary content will generally lack in lasting consequences for the game world, it might as well not exist for those who don’t have the opportunity to perceive it. It may provide a break in the routine for players, but it does not cause the world of the game to grow and evolve in a measurable way.

By your posts, I can see that you are reading Dog’s posts. But I don’t get the impression that you are truly understanding the thrust of his argument.

And by your post, you’re understanding his points but not mine, even after reading them.

Sure, we can’t see the game from the worlds view, but that doesn’t mean that the world won’t change because of that. In fact, the world does change. Most people are too stubborn to realize the changes that have happened ingame (every release has had some permanent change to the game, regardless how small, even Flame & Frost, and no I’m not just talking about skins).

Also, it doesn’t matter if content is permanent or temporary, it still won’t mean anything to a new player that comes in. If I try showing a player that just starts playing the game the Living Story, they become overwhelmed. It’s happened to me more times than I can count. It doesn’t matter that it’s temporary, they’re trying to get used to the game. So, please, unless you ARE a new player that is complaining that you didn’t get to partake in the F&F event (which is an entirely different argument), don’t try to argue for those players, let them come in and realize that they’re missing something big and come here complaining. I really want to see one of their point of views for once, instead of someone who’s BEEN a part of those events trying to vouch for people who it doesn’t even seem need to have people vouching for them.

Just because I did not reference your points does not mean that I did not read or understand them. My intention was not to refute your argument, but to explain why Dog had refuted it in his post. I was trying to help you understand his side.

I won’t deny that I have been playing GW2 for a long time now. However, you had no way of knowing that. You jumped to conclusions. Further, how does my not being a new player invalidate my logic? Does the feeling of being overwhelmed by the new content not indicate a problem in its implementation? And does putting it off and thus missing out on the potential rewards not hinder a player’s progression?

And yes, minor changes have occurred. When I say I would like the world to grow, I refer to more than just the occasional new way-point or point of interest. You claim that there are examples of substantial changes. Illustrate them for me. That kind of argument needs proof to be valid.

GummiArms.5368:

And yes, minor changes have occurred. When I say I would like the world to grow, I refer to more than just the occasional new way-point or point of interest. You claim that there are examples of substantial changes. Illustrate them for me. That kind of argument needs proof to be valid.

If you want to catch up with Braham, Rox, or Kasmeer, you can visit them in Cragstead, North Nolan Hatchery, and the Grand Piazza of Lion’s Arch respectively.

Not only are these new area’s, Cragstead and North Nolan Hatchery, but there’s also a new meta event (don’t blame Arenanet if players don’t do it, unless you’re asking them to force players to stay in Southsun until they do their daily karka queen meta), currently a new jumping puzzle, and soon to be another new area’s not including a few PoI’s.

You can talk to Braham, Rox and Kasmeer to get information regarding the previous events. They aren’t gone from the world forever, they still have their fragments left.

@Pixelpumpkin, YES. THIS. 1000%. I am really hoping that Anet learns from this, instead of continuing the trend (harder story dungeons). That’s really why I made this post; to add my voice to the feedback so that we can all have a game we can enjoy more.

@Esplen, the problem is the content means little to new players, and offers maybe 15 minutes of gameplay to veterans with the Flame and Frost stuff. The meta event in southsun is cool, but note that in total, for the 9 months the game has been out, we’ve gotten 1 new dungeon, 1 small zone, guild activities, and a couple little towns which have no real purpose besides existing at the moment. We’ve also gotten a few small changes here and there to zones adding to them, but all this pales in comparison to the amount of temporary content which has come out. in terms of temp content, we’ve gotten tons of new events, tons of story instances, 4+ dungeons (around 11 if you count all of them, more like 4 if you roll the small ones all together), and a multitude of mini games. All I want is temp content to be more focused on story OR difficulty, not both, and give more content a permanent home in Tyria.

Very well done post OP! I liked the way this thread was going. Let’s see if we can get it back on track, shall we?

dreadicon.5840:

one slip up can mean insta-death, and any amount of lacking coordination will wipe the party.

http://youtu.be/toVNkuCELpU

In this video, they clearly explain what are good challenges versus punishing challenges. This quote above appears to define punishing content. Which, after trying the dungeon about 8 hours ago, I’d agree with that assessment. Much like how the Karka Queen in Southsun is punishing content. Mostly from it’s inconsistency.

dreadicon.5840:

So yes, dungeons that punish mistakes and force players to get better are a good, needed thing.

… needed for what exactly? A game can be fun and fulfilling without any challenge at all.

My experience was not a good one. After 2 hours we gave up on it. It was a pick up group. Thus, I’m unaware of background/gear/etc. We hard a hard time on stage 3 of Frizz’s Lab. Again and again we we’re insta-pulled into the center when the field’s turned on. Afterwards, we couldn’t get past stage 3 of the cannon barrage with enough people standing. We tried spread out and circling. It was simply when your time was up, it was up. Like some odd form of RNG.

Funny thing is, I decided on day one that I wasn’t even going to bother with this dungeon. As soon as I heard people saying it was very hard, then looked at the reward, I was turned off. But, I noticed a group needing another in map chat. Thought I might as well lend a hand.

I, for one, would not mind seeing new fractals thrown into the mix.

As far as temporary content goes, I enjoyed the holiday themed dungeons. The Halloween and Christmas events, for instance. They were fun, freshened things up, and while they weren’t crucial to my character’s personal story or my sense of progression in the game, I was able to walk away from those with some nifty rewards. The Halloween back-piece lasted me most of my career in the game, and I still have a candy-cane hammer and princess wand.

The problem as I see it is with the higher difficulty curb is that it sucks the fun out of the event. Suddenly, you can’t just walk in with your friends and have a fun romp. Or if your friends aren’t available and you resort to shouting for a group to take you in, you end being restricted on what you can play and how you can play it. This is unnecessarily stressful. It excludes players from the benefits of the new content.

We want to be able to explore new environments and fight enemies we haven’t been able to fight before. We don’t want to have to give up on characters we have spent hundreds of hours on and developed our own methods for dealing with situations on. What if I don’t have a Guardian or Mesmer? It would be a strain to level one to eighty in order to remain competent enough to see the new content within the time frame of nine days. For many people, the time investment it would require simply would not be realistic.

“because the laser walls are un-dodgable.”

Actually, dodging through the walls is ok since you can occasionally get through without a hit and more importantly, you only take one hit from the wall. If you try to run away from a wall but get caught by it you can take three or four hits and that can put you on the floor. Standing further away from the center probably means the beam passes through you faster too.

I’m guessing that if this dungeon stayed in the game for another month there would be PUG tactics for this room that would become common knowledge.

This whole debate reminds me of the age old debate about 2 people simultaneously playing a 1 player game. It went a bit like this:

America : because the storyline is about one character, you can only play with one character.

Japan : Duplicate skin of main character, drop it in game as playable character alongside the main, don’t mention it in slightest in main storyline.

both worked but one gave u much more replay value.

Now we have the current situation

Anet : its in the past, so were going to remove it.

Players : how bout the events move on but leave the gameplay.

test (forums is glitching)

Okay, seriously! This has got to be the most kittened concept I’ve ever encountered. They are going to go through all the effort to create a cool dungeon, only to remove it 3weeks later? Regardless of the whole living world story concept, this idea of “removing” dungeon content is stupid.
How will the game ever grow if they keep removing content? and now since I’ve joined the game only in the past month, I am missing story content because Anet removed the last story event’s dungeon? And how do I get to participate in this content past? Never? Didn’t I pay for the game like everyone else?

The amount of problems with removing dungeon content, or rather, creating temporary dungeon content, couldn’t be written on an entire page of this forum.
Kudos to the person who started this thread…and AreaNet…shape up, I expect more from a game that I’m investing money in, and I don’t feel I should be punished because I have a wife and child and my game time is limited….