I want it to make sense right away, then another sense later. Murkiness =/= quality "
- CCP Abraxis
Glad to see no one acknowledged the fact that Teq cannot be critically hit. zerker builds aren’t exactly useful either. GW has always been about making people bring the right tools for the right task. Every profession can contribute fully in the teq fight with the right tools, this is already miles ahead of the GW1 days where if you’re not ele, sin or war it’s gtfo.
GW didn’t have a gear grind and stats could be changed in any outpost just as easily as skills. GW2 lacks that flexibility and instead forces its users to grind out multiple sets in order to be competitive.
And it’s silly to imply that there aren’t favored classes in GW2. Guardians, warriors and elementalists reign supreme when it comes to Tequatl slaying. Everybody else is just kind of there for the ride.
Stat grinding is a different issue. Has nothing to do with this supposed “condition neglect.”
As for class discrimination, I think the issue is more war/ele/guard is simply more numerous, so strategies are built around them. If the other classes were more popular, people would’ve come up with different tactics.
I’d like to add my support. Tequatl was designed for 80+ players, right, so that’s 0.31 of a condition stack per player, if you’re lucky. Not fair or fun, especially considering that the trait system encourages sticking to a single build. Why can’t the condition limit be 25 stacks per player for world bosses instead of 25 stacks between all players? Given the drastic increase in condition damage that players would be doing, developers could perhaps just increase Tequatl’s health to balance it out.
This is why I quit Necro and don’t touch Condi builds outside of sPvP.
Not only do they need to adjust condition caps (I think they are trying things out with the “everything stacks in intensity now” stuff) but they need to rethink defiant, if the control part of the new trinity is ever going to be a real thing then we need to see ways to control other than maybe interrupt one attack that you meant to and the rest of the fight the boss occasionally stops moving for half a second when his stacks go down.
I understand that being able to stun lock a boss is lame, but there are many ways that can address this, it has been suggested before that the buffs work backwards, and control effects do their thing as per pvp until the boss has been hit by a few, and then it becomes immune to those effects for a duration, then back to the start, hey even call it enrage or something, give them a temporary speed/damage boost, give them more/different abilities to use during this period of time, make them call in adds, or make the players do a jumping puzzle style dodge (like the laser room in MF), maybe even make the changes last till a certain condition is met (like the dredge fractal boss being dragged under the molten iron/lava/whatever it is). Suddenly you introduced a new layer of strategy because the players have to plan for the boss’s boosted phase. That way people designing their build around control have something to do.
That way you also don’t have “dead” skills in a fight, on my support guardian when I have to switch to range, I use my staff. Do you know which skill I never hit in a typical boss fight? You guessed it line of warding! Why? Because it is useless, it doesn’t remove stacks, it isn’t a combo field, it only wastes time. Sanctuary is also nearly useless, and shield 5 (those two are good for most ranged attacks but still). So many skills that we as players are forced to take, don’t even work against bosses, which is how you end up with people complaining “every fight is skill 1 and strafe till it is dead”. My suggestion, maybe remove the damage on a lot of the skills and make their effects better, why not make the cripple last longer, or shorten the cool down, the player isn’t using dancing dagger for the damage, so let them use it when they want a cripple, and make it be worthwhile for them to stop using their damaging abilities.
If even half of those changes happened we would start seeing build diversity, and actual strategies involving skills between players.
I know that seems like a rant, and there is a lot of frustration in this thread, but honestly I love this game, that is why I am passionate about it. I want this game to succeed, and be fun as possible, we need these kind of changes to make it feel more interesting, as it is right now, in an effort to make all professions equal it feels we have swung the other way. There are no unique play styles, no unique resource management opportunities. Sure there’s death shroud, but that is little more than an extra weapon that gives extra health, it’s the necro kit if you will, or conjured weapon. Initiative should feel entirely different than the other professions, but because only a few skills are worth using most of the time, it’s kind of foolish to not spam those skills.
Edited: Grammar
(edited by Icarus Pherae.4680)
the last time i remember them responding about conditions they said something along the lines of they know its an issue, they are looking at other ways to improve conditions meanwhile the reason they don’t track a different stack of conditions per player was because of bandwidth.
That’s not acceptable.
thats from 6 months ago you as well, i just find it most interesting because i’ve never seen this come up in any other game before.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/first top post has the original quote
ArenaNet should make the condition damage instantly tick on world bosses and objects and perhaps npcs, basically, the condition damage is converted into base damage.
Icarus Pherae.4680 I just wanted to give you some good feedback and a +1 on your ideas.
Giving control a meaningful role in pve and making use of “dead skills” on the bars.
Too many CCs in a row? Enrage
Lower damage, increase effects. If anything should have big damage it should be longer cooldown abilities and take almost all the damage off of auto attack. Problem is, some class/weapon combos have no damage on any of the skills “except!” for on the 1 auto chain….. that is not good, removes the skill from pvp on knowing what to dodge and when and it also makes it boring in pve.
Again I just wanted to give you some props on your ideas.
Icarus Pherae.4680 I just wanted to give you some good feedback and a +1 on your ideas.
Giving control a meaningful role in pve and making use of “dead skills” on the bars.
Too many CCs in a row? Enrage
Lower damage, increase effects. If anything should have big damage it should be longer cooldown abilities and take almost all the damage off of auto attack. Problem is, some class/weapon combos have no damage on any of the skills “except!” for on the 1 auto chain….. that is not good, removes the skill from pvp on knowing what to dodge and when and it also makes it boring in pve.
Again I just wanted to give you some props on your ideas.
Thanks! And I agree with you, with the majority of damage coming from auto-attack pvp seems to be a flail-fest, if stronger, telegraphed attacks were more common it would allow for higher strategy in pvp than currently available.
This issue has been here for way too long. Either it isn’t a high priority for them ( which it should be!) or they just don’t know how they want to fix it…
Back in GW1, the undeads were immune to bleed and poison, i would see you head now if they still were ! I bet that would be epic.
In regard of the problem here, maybe if tequatl adds had a buff like “defense of the bone dragon” which lower damage done by power by 20% and reduce crit by 20% also this could be fixed :P
Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.
Jon
That was 6 months ago. Man, they work fast
You don’t need to make it all ascended. Just use exotic. Better than being useless.
May we quote you in Januray next year, when Ascended armour and weapons are comon in the game?
This would be less of an issue, if they sticked to the promise that everyone at level 80 has perfect gear. If alternate gear sets would be cheap and we could retrait on the fly then condition users could just get a set of power gear. Even zerkers should invest into a soldier set for tequatl for exchanging crit/crit damage for something useful.
But instead, we got a new time-gated item tier.
If they say they cannot do anything to conditions because they cannot program it correctly… They need to do something to power builds to make them in line with conditions.
So maybe having a cap on direct damage could be a solution? With 2000 cond damage which seems the highest not including might, DPS on conds is about 3500. So lets say direct damage cap per second could be around 7-10k. No single person could or say should do that kind of damage in a second anyway… so shouldn’t ruin anything with solo play. Group play however it might be bad but so is conditions.
So what will happen is if damage goes above this, the damage then gets ignored. All of this is exaggerated to show you how stupid condition cap is compared to direct damage.
What if 25 stacks to bleed made a new condition? Say, “Gash”? It wouldn’t go over the 25 stack limit and it would allow condi-users to help in the fight.
A game in wich there’s no trinity…but where only ZERKER works, yeah, not a great success.
I feel tired of being considered noob if, as warrior, i use celestial/tank build with shouts (i find this pretty good for evrything) instead of KITTEN BERSERK WITH BANNERS.
So so so BAD design!
PS: and obviously when doing dg or champs, i’m the one who ’’ress’’ others, but no, i’m a waste of DPS. Cool …-not-
Colin:" While gone, this was something a team started designing a solution for, no one told me that while in Europe, so I said only what I knew at the time. The joys of no one being awake at the same hours."
Yeah… how’s that solution working out?
It’s been a year, ArenaNet. It’s time to fix this glaring issue.
A game in wich there’s no trinity…but where only ZERKER works, yeah, not a great success.
I feel tired of being considered noob if, as warrior, i use celestial/tank build with shouts (i find this pretty good for evrything) instead of KITTEN BERSERK WITH BANNERS.
So so so BAD design!PS: and obviously when doing dg or champs, i’m the one who ’’ress’’ others, but no, i’m a waste of DPS. Cool …-not-
This. I am using CD cause I like one-handed swords… Set is Apothecary, sword/bow, so bleedings/burning/poison is my way with healing from shouts. And now I am useless on:
1) objects, like burrows
2) enemies who cleans their cond
3) champions, when cap of cond (like invasions)
4) Teq
5) With some CD characters in party (thief/necr)
Which are almost everything in game. I was forced to buy zerk gear to play dungeons (no one needs CD war, only zerks).
And I am useful.. Nowhere in PvE. “Balance”!
(edited by GreyFerret.9651)
Condition Ranger here and still seeming less useful in dungeons and PvE content like Tequatl. Really Hope they find a solution for this soon
I agree and it’s not just conditions, but also critical damage. All your precision, crit chance and crit damage are nothing.
At least for DPS conditions on world bosses, calculations should be balanced per player, capping the conditions the player can maintain, instead on the enemy, capping the conditions the boss can has.
Intead “I’m Tequatl, I have 25 stacks of bleed from these guys, so I’ll apply meself 25 of them and ignore the rest” it should be “I’m player X, I’ maintaining 15 bleeding stacks on Tequatl.”
i must say that now i have a condition necro its very anoying to kill stuf thats imuun to conditions like for example enviromental objects. condition cap also holds my damage back on big bosses. why should all the condition apliers be punished when the cap is reached but the zerkers can burst out as much damage as they can.
It is pretty demoralising to be in a world boss fight as a condition user, knowing that you are adding virtually nothing to the event. Conditions become less useful the more people you are co-operating with, that probably wasn’t what ANet originally intended … so why has it been allowed to persist for so long?
Look, I can understand your qualms as long as the needed added server capacity takes a backseat to added server capacity for PvP purposes. Which probably wouldn’t happen. (Not unless they suddenly dramatically invest in their infrastructure for both PvP and condition-cap/PvE reasons)
Have you played WvW lately?
Removing the condition cap when it really only matters in a select few situations like this one is utter fluff compared to that.
And yes, the condition cap in PvE is due to a back end server bottleneck. This was stated by the devs already close after release.
From a necro : +1
If conditions were made relevant in pve, you could stop playing wack-a-mole with trait lines trying to force build variety by treating the cause instead of the symptom.
Look, I can understand your qualms as long as the needed added server capacity takes a backseat to added server capacity for PvP purposes. Which probably wouldn’t happen. (Not unless they suddenly dramatically invest in their infrastructure for both PvP and condition-cap/PvE reasons)
Have you played WvW lately?
Removing the condition cap when it really only matters in a select few situations like this one is utter fluff compared to that.And yes, the condition cap in PvE is due to a back end server bottleneck. This was stated by the devs already close after release.
Hmm let’s see… where does the condition cap matter:
Group Events
Dungeons
World Bosses
Fractals
Structures
Where doesn’t it matter:
sPvP
explain again how it only affects, “a select few situations”? It affects 99% of the game and 99% of the players. The only people it doesn’t effect are the 50-100 people that still PvP on a regular basis
And no I haven’t played WvW lately, and neither has most of the player base, which is why they should spend more time fixing the areas that still have players left.
This is the best part of the event, before you didnt have to care that condition was pretty much useless for events like this but now that it have a timer and a chance to fail the attention to the problem is even bigger.
This is the best part of the event, before you didnt have to care that condition was pretty much useless for events like this but now that it have a timer and a chance to fail the attention to the problem is even bigger.
That applies to all world bosses for me. I know max DPS only really matters on Tequatl, but the timer magnifies just how useless I am on every world boss.
they should make it like in wow, your conditions run as own debuff and don’t stack with other players stacks
But, honestly, if you’re a condition build (getting condition cap in 0.1 seconds), or, for what is worth, a full berserker’s (precision and critical damage are useless against tequatl), why don’t you just defend (or use) the turrets? I think that we’ve chosen the worst example to take for showing off the ineffectiveness of condition builds (which IS there), because there is a role you can play, one that, by the way, is often neglected :-/.
But, honestly, if you’re a condition build (getting condition cap in 0.1 seconds), or, for what is worth, a full berserker’s (precision and critical damage are useless against tequatl), why don’t you just defend (or use) the turrets? I think that we’ve chosen the worst example to take for showing off the ineffectiveness of condition builds (which IS there), because there is a role you can play, one that, by the way, is often neglected :-/.
So 75% of the raid will defend turrets, gotcha.
AGAIN, we know we can work around this issue with wearing PVT gear, respeccing yata yata. That isn’t the point.
Continued neglect of critical issues such as these (with attention only being paid to other major gameplay issues once developers actually start experiencing the irritation – e.g. utilities disabled for a few seconds after leaving death shroud) are why I haven’t logged in at all for a good few weeks now.
This won’t change until they start to change their style and focus on gameplay elements experienced by classes other than the popular three or four.
Well I being an engi 100% of the time, have a limited understanding compared, however I have found that when i do condition builds i can easily out-damage power builds, with attack-to-attack count. The difference is time. i.e. i can do 40k+ burn damage with just a few quick attacks, but i do have to wait for the time it takes to burn. Which I find fair considering condition damage bypasses armor and requires something to stop it. And in PvE its very easy to just step back, or switch targets, or dodge and avoid and let them burn to death. In fact i kinda like to do that.
But IMO the real problem i tend to see is the way players tend to build, they go all out for one or the other. A good build should never rely on one thing, whether it be only condition damage, or crits, or whatever, balance is the key in GW2, it has always been that way. They call the power builds Glass Cannons, for a reason, well most condition builds I’ve seen in action have very big weaknesses too. As do crit-builds, and bunkers. The trinity can be forced, true, but again IMO i feel its not the wisest path in GW2.
Rather than trying to build your characters to only fill one part of the trinity, build it to fill all 3. Balance a little and see the strength in everything. My Celestial build, which I affectionately call Champ-Killer, is just that, a nicely balance build that can solo most champs in the game. There’s still a few i haven’t quite succeeded soloing yet, but I’m getting there :P
Now the fix for conditions on targets when dealing with stacks is where I do agree there should be a change. The way I see it the math can be changed to help with limitations and better represent the fact there are more than 25 stacks happening.
1st: Change the base feature of stacks to represent individual players attacking. Each players single stack will adjust to represent duration and damage per tick. This will remove the ridiculous compounded formulas created by the current stack system now, and most likely free up the server computational limits.
2nd: AoE effects. Currently the target limitations are due to the fact the AoE fields (circular ones) mark all targets in field at the same time. Again the math is super complicated for no reason. The circle effects themselves don’t need to be change graphically, just the way they hit their targets. Best idea I can come up with is based off the way that vale, and other such line shaped AoE effects pretty much work well and hit everything that passes through it, this same effect can be made with in the circles, like the minute hand on a clock; the AoE circle would do a sweep of the hand 360 degrees every tick, and all targets with in the AoE can be targeted and effected.
If they insist on the silliness of the AoE effect splits up among the targets still, then this would at least open up the math to increase the number of targets able to be hit, by allowing the targets to be recounted each tick and hit different targets, therefore effecting more with each tick. The servers should be able to handle this, considering they do this already with compounded stack system + multiple AoE’s at same location.
3rd: Rebalance to help even the playing field will be a must if these two steps are met.
Lastly the effects of conditions on structures and such. I kinda like the idea just not the choices of what a structure is. Teq for example should absolutely be immune to several conditions, like poison, confusion, even fire since he lives underwater and maybe to wet to burn? Whatever, just have some logic about it please. Same goes with all critters, like bleed on elementals? They don’t have blood, and love to see fire not damage fire….duh. Finally critters that are counted as structures, need to be seriously reconsidered. The fingers again can be immune to several logical conditions, but they should not be treated like a wall. Its a moving critter. You can still make them tough as nails but lets have some logic to it. Please.
it has been suggested before that the buffs work backwards, and control effects do their thing as per pvp until the boss has been hit by a few, and then it becomes immune to those effects for a duration, then back to the start, hey even call it enrage or something, give them a temporary speed/damage boost, give them more/different abilities to use during this period of time, make them call in adds, or make the players do a jumping puzzle style dodge (like the laser room in MF), maybe even make the changes last till a certain condition is met (like the dredge fractal boss being dragged under the molten iron/lava/whatever it is). Suddenly you introduced a new layer of strategy because the players have to plan for the boss’s boosted phase.
You forget how completely worthless it is to stun the boss for 3 seconds, or to interrupt an attack. When you throw in a rage mechanic, people will start to go out of their way to avoid using any control skills at all, lest they accidentally trigger it. People will be kicked from parties if they trigger rage, and certain weapons will be banned outright, like warrior hammer.
(edited by Psycho Robot.7835)
I am a necro who cries himself to sleep and I approve this message.
it has been suggested before that the buffs work backwards, and control effects do their thing as per pvp until the boss has been hit by a few, and then it becomes immune to those effects for a duration, then back to the start, hey even call it enrage or something, give them a temporary speed/damage boost, give them more/different abilities to use during this period of time, make them call in adds, or make the players do a jumping puzzle style dodge (like the laser room in MF), maybe even make the changes last till a certain condition is met (like the dredge fractal boss being dragged under the molten iron/lava/whatever it is). Suddenly you introduced a new layer of strategy because the players have to plan for the boss’s boosted phase.
You forget how completely worthless it is to stun the boss for 3 seconds, or to interrupt an attack. When you throw in a rage mechanic, people will start to go out of their way to avoid using any control skills at all, lest they accidentally trigger it. People will be kicked from parties if they trigger rage, and certain weapons will be banned outright, like warrior hammer.
In that scenario you wouldn’t only be able to stun for 3 seconds or interrupt 1 attack, if you wanted to, by working as a team, you could more or less stunlock the boss until they progressed into the “enrage” mechanic. Remember you alone may only have enough to interrupt one attack, but you aren’t (usually) soloing, so it would require teamwork. It would give you the option to stunlock the boss entirely for a few seconds and have to deal with the enrage, or spread the stuns out, only use them to interrupt the big OHKO attacks and deal with the enrage later. Alternatively, maybe the stacks that push the boss toward being “enraged” disappear after so many seconds of not being hit by CC. The way defiant works now is basically so that the players don’t steamroll a boss by stunlocking it into goo.
This would prevent long term stunlocking, and give players multiple choices on how to deal with the boss, do we want that rush and added challenge of the enrage? Or do we draw things out a bit, slow down, and have an “easier” fight, with more time required for the fight, but avoiding the added difficulty.
I don’t think people would intentionally avoid CC at that point anymore than they do now, because the group could actually have effective CC and only have to worry about triggering the enrage mechanic. Additionally, we are calling it “enrage” for the lack of a better term, it wouldn’t necessarily be a boost to damage/attack speed. For some bosses sure, but added mobs, healing, new attacks, these are the sort of things you see in a typical MMO boss fight that has “stages” of combat.
How would you change the idea to address your concerns? I’d love to hear other’s ideas on it! : )
I agree and it’s not just conditions, but also critical damage. All your precision, crit chance and crit damage are nothing.
This is a problem, but it honestly doesn’t belong in this thread. You do approximately half your damage without crits as a berserker build. Condition builds do like 5-10 percent if you count base damage on weapons that are built for conditions and therefore have really low base damage. It’s just not comparable.
I agree completely.
If the bleed cap is a technical limitation, then why did you make classes that stack 14 bleeds?
If the bleed cap is a technical limitation, then why did you make classes that stack 14 bleeds?
Actually, a well built and played necromancer can reach the bleed cap of 25 all on his lonesome.
I think Derek was using the average for his example.
Most good necromancers won’t build to stack 25 bleeds because of bleed cap, anyway.
If the bleed cap is a technical limitation, then why did you make classes that stack 14 bleeds?
I can hit 14 stacks auto attacking (ok 10 but not far off :P)
but hitting the 25 stacks takes about 3 secs when playing a condi necro properly
they really need to add an effect where everytime 25 stacks are reached a base amount of damaged is dealt, what this number is i dont know but how hard would it be to work out
Yup, the whole event is dead for me, my 2 main characters are pure condition damage…
Bump for this thread. Even with a PVT build, a large portion of Necromancer’s skills and damage is in conditions so this event highlights Arenanet’s continued focus on power builds and reduction of condition’s importance to game mechanics.
I wish I could somehow tell all the Chinese players on their release day to just play a power build so they don’t ruin the game for themselves. Wish I knew how low on the priority list of fixing this was before I started playing…
I played a warrior and became a rubber stamp zerker warrior, just like my father before me and his father before him. However I had Yakkington’s armor for gold farming, and when I had to pick new stats after MF removal, none of the stats seemed any good for me, so I decided to try something new and picked a condition damage stat. I like it but its disheartening to know that its utterly useless in most pve situations. Even in a 5 man dungeon 25 stacks of bleeding is often reached quickly, so why bother? I don’t mind that I can’t make structures bleed, but I should at least make them burn.
I wish I could somehow tell all the Chinese players on their release day to just play a power build so they don’t ruin the game for themselves. Wish I knew how low on the priority list of fixing this was before I started playing…
Agreed.
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