Guild Wars 2

Shiren.9532:

If all you care about is the achievement. If you care about experiencing all the content in the game, sucks to be anyone who doesn’t get it done by tomorrow.

It’s going to suck for anyone who tries it tonight and doesn’t know what they are in for. xD

Shiren.9532:

If all you care about is the achievement. If you care about experiencing all the content in the game, sucks to be anyone who doesn’t get it done by tomorrow.

So they should basically never change anything at all in the whole game, but only add stuff on top of it?
Because if they change anything someone wouldn’t be able to experience it, and that would be a bad thing, right?

“Every MMO player should be up in arms about content REMOVAL”

Why? Because so many player go back and run old content? I am sure tons of players are running year 1 wow content all the time.

It just so happens that my generalization on this matter is correct most of the time.

We already know Anet is weary about expanding the world and dungeons in general. They fear thinning players out too much, and having too many dungeons.

They want to fix and or expand upon existing dungeons. They did not fix the current path, they replaced it with an expanded and longer path.

I can understand some players won’t like it. I understand even better a good deal will complain that something is being removed just because it’s being removed.

“Because if they change anything someone wouldn’t be able to experience it, and that would be a bad thing, right?”

I answer for him/her.

Yes

It’s a case of cutting off the arm when the finger is broken. Rather than fix the one fight in the path that was total garbage, they instead chose to nuke the whole thing. A lot of good content is being removes simply because it finished with some bad content.

Lucky.9421:

colesy.8490:

If he wanted dungeon master badly enough he’d pay for it.

Instead, he thinks remotely challenging content should be removed because it forces you to use more than a single brain cell.

Well Anet listened to overwhelming feedback and nuked it. So there.

Most explorable paths have really low production quality anyway, due to obviously being rushed at the end of the development cycle, and should be replaced.

AR, MF and, seemingly, TA look to be closer to the AAA level of production that GW2 deserves.

The overwhelming feedback consisted of awful players who were unable to put up reflects and spam a basic DPS rotation in power-primary stat gear against the final boss.

Note.

The final boss.

This heavy-handedness reminds me of the way Bioware created Dragon Age II, people complained the combat was too slow so they made it too fast. People complained that they used dialogue up too quickly so they time-gated all of the dialogue and restricted you to three choices at each conversation point. Some people didn’t like how a game which claimed to be dark fantasy (Dragon Age: Origins) was overly happy, so they made all of the characters in the second game insane caricatures where by the end of the game you just wanted to kill everyone they were that unlikeable.

If the boss is a problem, fix the issue of the spiders resetting, don’t destroy the entire path.

You assume everyone doesn’t like that path because of 1 fight. Probably true for the most part in this case.

It may not be a retcon, it might just become historical. I have my own convoluted theory on how LS is allowed to do this without messing up chronology (which makes sense to me, it really does, but apparently not you guys xD). Some clarification would be nice.

colesy.8490:

The overwhelming feedback consisted of awful players who were unable to put up reflects and spam a basic DPS rotation in power-primary stat gear against the final boss.

Well that’s just…like…your opinion man.

Besides, what if it’s 5 bunker engineers? It is against their stated design philosophy for them to not be able to do it.

Granted, when the content comes out, it doesn’t always turn out that way but it is not intentional on their part. They still espouse this philosophy. Production deadlines are clearly screwing them though, so we sometimes get finicky content.

This game is a year old. WoW was something like 5+ years old before they revamped their old world content, to many player’s dismay. Yes, players are going to go back and play them or, here is a shocker, play them for the first time. Not everyone has done every drop of content yet. Apparently, you also forget that there are new players to this game as well (free weekend this week).

This may be Anet’s new method of revamping content, I sure hope a piece of content you like won’t get replaced by a slapped-on living story element. I have no idea why any MMO company would be “weary” of giving their players too much to do. Let me file that one away as one of the most non-problem problems I have ever heard. To your last point, this is content being removed for the sake of removing content. I don’t think it’s so technically difficult to add another path, this is their way of “revamping” the path.

Any generalization of people is never correct “most of the time”. Unless you are an all-seeing god who can pierce the mind and souls of men. You have zero idea why people are “up in arms” about the issue, beyond what they say. Spare us your “wisdom” of our own internal thoughts.

Alright, I will get a lot of hate for it, but I would like it better if only one of the paths were about Fyonna, Laurent and Vevina killing each other and trying to claim the tree. It is just that I don’t like the fact that both three stories are mutually exclusive and I would prefer if the stories of all the paths could make sense together instead.
I know that other dungeon paths are like that, too, but still…

Anyway, replacing one path does not solve the problem, so I don’t think that it should be done at all.

colesy.8490:

If the boss is a problem, fix the issue of the spiders resetting, don’t destroy the entire path.

The entire path, including most explorable paths in the game, is of low production quality and really does not do the game justice. They are full of design shortcuts, reused assets, corners cut and general jankyness.

They simply did not invest the time they needed into the dungeons. AR, MF have clearly had more effort put in them and it shows(though they still needed some polish). I think they will do the same wih TA.

Why do they need to remove a path? Just add a new path and everyone would be happy.

CHIPS.6018:

Why do they need to remove a path? Just add a new path and everyone would be happy.

Because that would make sense, and until today I think that’s what most people expected would happen. TA would go from 3 level 55 paths to 3 level 55 paths and one level 80.

This also makes wonder if the level 80 path will buff players under 80 to level 80. I haven’t had a chance to watch the video yet.

lordkrall.7241:

Well, people have been whining about the path more or less since release. And this is probably one of the best ways to fix it.

One of the worst, you mean. It is the “we couldn’t be bothered to fix it, or event to acknowledge the problem, so we’d rather remove it whole than do something constructive” approach. You should never want the devs of any game adopt this way of thinking.

Besides, what if it’s 5 bunker engineers? It is against their stated design philosophy for them to not be able to do it.

There’s a video of 3 thieves killing the boss with shortbow AOE, so 5 bunker engis is fine and perfectly doable.

The entire path, including most explorable paths in the game, is of low production quality and really does not do the game justice. They are full of design shortcuts, reused assets, corners cut and general jankyness.

They simply did not invest the time they needed into the dungeons. AR, MF have clearly had more effort put in them and it shows(though they still needed some polish). I think they will do the same wih TA.

Remember when they “fixed” Fractals by making the loot terrible?

We have Arah as precedent (four paths), there is no excuse for TAFU to be removed.

There was no need to remove TAFU. Instead they could added a fourth path and fixed tafu so the spiders reset to get the best of both worlds.

colesy.8490:

There’s a video of 3 thieves killing the boss with shortbow AOE, so 5 bunker engis is fine and perfectly doable.

You are sure but you don’t know and neither does Anet. That is the problem with rushed
content.

colesy.8490:

Vol.5241:

I hated this path, could never get it done and it was an all or nothing path (if you screwed up initially on last boss, GL)

Nuking this path is good. Maybe I can finally get my Dungeon Master.

Imagine how easy it would have been to fix your problem by either getting better at the game and actually paying attention or to run in a decent group that can carry you or to buy a run off someone.

Says the guy whose three classes he plays are Mesmer/Warrior/Guardian.

People that play un-meta classes are screwed by the nightmare tree unless you cheese him. Requiring a certain comp to beat a boss in this game is not in their design.

You are sure but you don’t know and neither does Anet. That is the problem with rushed
content.

I believe they exclusively used AOEs so that the spiders wouldn’t spawn.Grenade auto is an AOE right? Easy. Also, the thieves were naked.

Says the guy whose three classes he plays are Mesmer/Warrior/Guardian.

People that play un-meta classes are screwed by the nightmare tree unless you cheese him. Requiring a certain comp to beat a boss in this game is not in their design.

Guardians, mesmers, rangers, engineers, thieves and elementalists have projectile absorption/reflects.

Warriors don’t but you only need one for banners anyway.

Necromancers are a bad class to take to dungeons due to lack of group utility.

The only non-meta class is necro, and that’s not because of poor DPS, but because basically every other class has more support skills, and if you wanted a class for DPS you take a thief or elementalist.

colesy.8490:

I believe they exclusively used AOEs so that the spiders wouldn’t spawn.Grenade auto is an AOE right? Easy. Also, the thieves were naked.

You appear to be confusing the fight with something else. The spiders WILL spawn despite AoEs.

That’s the problem with theorycraft. ^.^

KOPPER.1458:

“Because if they change anything someone wouldn’t be able to experience it, and that would be a bad thing, right?”

I answer for him/her.

Yes

You sure like to generalize people and put words in their mouth. Without saying really anything of substance at all.

Lucky.9421:

colesy.8490:

I believe they exclusively used AOEs so that the spiders wouldn’t spawn.Grenade auto is an AOE right? Easy. Also, the thieves were naked.

You appear to be confusing the fight with something else. The spiders WILL spawn despite AoEs.

That’s the problem with theorycraft. ^.^

You were saying?

This is disappointing, AN.

colesy.8490:

You were saying?

1) The spiders in that video are spawned
2) The thieves are maintaining 100% stealth, that is why they aren’t getting agro. Not because they are using AoE

How are 5 engineers going to maintain 100% stealth while nading?

No offense, but I think you need to learn more about the game before you get all smarmy.

Maybe 5 tank engies can beat it, I’m not saying they can’t. But neither you nor Anet know how easy it would be, because neither have tested it.

colesy.8490:

Lucky.9421:

colesy.8490:

I believe they exclusively used AOEs so that the spiders wouldn’t spawn.Grenade auto is an AOE right? Easy. Also, the thieves were naked.

You appear to be confusing the fight with something else. The spiders WILL spawn despite AoEs.

That’s the problem with theorycraft. ^.^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwiymCWndhk

You were saying?

Look closely, they are constantly restealthing, which is why spiders don’t attack.

MastaNeenja.1537:

CHIPS.6018:

Why do they need to remove a path? Just add a new path and everyone would be happy.

Because that would make sense, and until today I think that’s what most people expected would happen. TA would go from 3 level 55 paths to 3 level 55 paths and one level 80.

Yeah, AN is just being silly at this point.

Oh also I forgot to say that nades would break stealth, even if engineers could maintain 100% stealth(they can’t).

Astralporing.1957:

lordkrall.7241:

Well, people have been whining about the path more or less since release. And this is probably one of the best ways to fix it.

One of the worst, you mean. It is the “we couldn’t be bothered to fix it, or event to acknowledge the problem, so we’d rather remove it whole than do something constructive” approach. You should never want the devs of any game adopt this way of thinking.

People haven’t been whining about the path since release. Originally Up and F/U were the two paths players ran. People actually considered F/F to be the hardest. There was a tweak made to the dungeon a while back that changed the final encounter in F/U making it more difficult than most encounters in the game. The Nighmare Tree is consistently (across all three paths) one of the worst designed bosses in the game. Originally it was auto attack with a ranged weapon while going AFK on all three paths – it was that easy. In fixing that problem, they made it much harder by introducing a whole bunch of new problems which were clearly not tested properly.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Screen_

easy

lordkrall.7241:

So, we have had months of people complaining about F-U, now they do something to address that issue.
And now people suddenly seems to think that F-U was the most awesome and perfect path ever.

ArenaNet really can’t win.
If they don’t change stuff people complain that the world is not changing and stuff is bad, boring and don’t get fixed.
If they do change stuff people complain that they fix stuff and that the bad, boring and unfixed stuff was good as it was.

This so much. And i could bet, that most people who whine, didnt play the path at all. Its ridiculous.

colesy.8490:

Lucky.9421:

colesy.8490:

I believe they exclusively used AOEs so that the spiders wouldn’t spawn.Grenade auto is an AOE right? Easy. Also, the thieves were naked.

You appear to be confusing the fight with something else. The spiders WILL spawn despite AoEs.

That’s the problem with theorycraft. ^.^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwiymCWndhk

You were saying?

Look closely, they are constantly restealthing, which is why spiders don’t attack.

colesy.8490:

Guardians, mesmers, rangers, engineers, thieves and elementalists have projectile absorption/reflects.

Warriors don’t but you only need one for banners anyway.

Warriors actually do, but it is not optimal. That is how I helped get a team through once, which did not have any reflects, and someone left after they got stuck on the boss.

Better to zerk and let the Guardian and Mes chain reflects + timewarp.

colesy.8490:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Screen_

easy

lol nah bro. You do have one night to prove your theorycraft though. ^.^

I think 5 very good bunker engineers can do it(not by using flame turrets, haha) but it would be very difficult. Way too much more difficult than war/guard/mes than is appropriate to Anet’s design philosophy.

It is a little funny how the people who cry NONERF seem to be wrong about simple game mechanics. Not pointing specifically at you, but just a general thing I notice.

errr… what’s wrong with using a smoke field that you can blast yourself?

You have vuln stacking, decent DPS, stealth and reflects in a 5-engi party, what makes it so difficult?

colesy.8490:

errr… what’s wrong with using a smoke field that you can blast yourself?

You have vuln stacking, decent DPS, stealth and reflects in a 5-engi party, what makes it so difficult?

Because the turret doesn’t stealth and most spiders would be outside of blind range = turretownage.

Plus nades break stealth, which you seem to keep forgetting.

Theorycraaaaaaaft!

lordkrall.7241:

Well, people have been whining about the path more or less since release. And this is probably one of the best ways to fix it.

“Dark were the skies, and chilled was the wind! But the casuals cried so they nerfed the weather!” – Total Biscuit

Jokes aside I really don’t see this as a big deal, I mean yeah it was fun. I enjoyed the fight with Vevina it was kinda cool and one of the more enjoyable fights to solo. I admit I didn’t get a chance to see the stream I’ll check it out when I’m home later, but new content can’t be that horrible. Especially when this path was one of the most annoying paths to get a group for, almost no one wants to do it.

TA F/U was my favorite path except for the fact the last boss with spiders was so broken. They only had to fix that darn boss and I would have done that path again! Now they want to replace a lvl 55 path with another lvl 80 path? This seems strange to me.

We want NO REPLACEMENT. Just fix the darn boss and give us that new path. Why no fix like in TA when you reworked the 3 bosses? You only needed to do that! I’m angry and sad now.

Still haven’t watched the stream but I will as soon as I can.

Thanks.

Guys – path they are removing was bugged (dumb).

Spiders on last boss were not despawning. If new players go there and wipe 3 times, they need to repeat dungeon. It is plain broken, no matter what you say. It is like bosses would not loose stacks of their buffs after wipe etc, it is not normal and anti-player thing.

What I think has happened is just they weren’t able to fix it, so they remove it with a better thought-out path that all can complete, where mechanics can be learned WITHOUT having to repeat dungeon after few wipes.

Of course, you can say you can watch videos, learn, be good etc – YES, you can learn it, but the way this boss was working was simply wrong.

And no I wouldnt say they will remove an other path from the game, as none other path/ boss fight in the game is broken in a way it needs a serious fix.

Why do you defend broken dungeon? Cause you can’t laugh at nabs anymore?

Seriously, they just needed to redo the boss. It is the boss people hated. I LOVED every aspect of the path, except for the broken boss. I want no replacement, I want a FIX!

Please, don’t remove my favorite path, just fix it instead! :S

because people dont want the “harder” paths replaced with easy mode content.
and this new path will be easy mode content because the devs can complete it.

the difficulty is only ok when the devs test their own path and cannot get past the first boss and make the difficulty 20 times harder after that.

+1

Very good thread.

Extremely worrisome. My main concerns with the update would be threefold.

1) Are we ever going to get permanent additions to the game rather than zero sum replacements? If this trend continues, are we looking at the exact same number of dungeons paths a year from now without any expanded scope whatsoever?

There are 25 explorable paths in the game right now. Two years from now, are we going to still have exactly 25 paths, just with some new replacements gutting previous content? “Just as much dungeon content as release” seems like a rather poor goal to set in stone.

2) What current content is considered worthwhile and what is deemed suitable for the axe? If they are removing prior content to make way for Living Story material, what bar is being set for paths and adventures considered important enough to keep? TAkittenmay not have been the most fun in the world, but what about it makes it okay to eliminate completely? Will purging be a common means of fixing other flawed paths? Is Scarlet going to kick out Inquest in the Crucible or punt the dredge out of their home because they want to make another Aetherblade retreat?

3) Why does Anet consider the Living Story to be so much more important than everything else in the game that they are willing to axe content to help Scarlet look special? We’ve been fighting her minions for months now, and with the exception of Southsun, absolutely nothing has been embellished outside of festivals and Scarlet’s plot. Nothing has been done to expand or embellish the centaurs, krait, jotun, harpies, Inquest, Nightmare Court, bandits/White Mantle, Sons of Svanir, or Elder Dragons. Not to mention gods, bloodstones, mist portals, wizard towers, tengu, kodan, largos, quaggan, skritt, ogres, grawl, hylek, or Palawa Joko.

Are we seriously being told that Scarlet is so important that she needs to replace existing content, and may continue to gut dungeons in the future to keep making her look special?

NoTrigger.8396:

because people dont want the “harder” paths replaced with easy mode content.

I don’t think the new dungeon will be “easy mode” but it will probably give very specific team comps less favor.

Lucky.9421:

NoTrigger.8396:

because people dont want the “harder” paths replaced with easy mode content.

I don’t think the new dungeon will be “easy mode” but it will probably give very specific team comps less favor.

the devs can complete it -> easy mode.
this guy in the livestream even said “tested by pro testers”.
when i hear something like that im not sure if i should laugh, cry or both at the same time.

NoTrigger.8396:

the devs can complete it -> easy mode.

Well…I did see a dev stream where one of them used mending. >.>

If this is true then this is a bull move by Anet. Instead of putting in some effort to make the boss in F/U less rediculous they instead just remove the whole thing to put in a new path. What? Everything about F/U was fine until the boss so I’d assume making changes would take minimal effort at best. But I suppose it’s much easier to just press the “delete” key.

Shriketalon.1937:

3) Why does Anet consider the Living Story to be so much more important than everything else in the game

Because they are not working on an expansion or sequel.

….I just made myself sad.

It is quite interesting that people seems to imply that ArenaNet are taking a lazy way out of things.
Do you really think that making a completely new path requires less work than fixing a boss?

Sounds stupid to remove perfectly fine content.